I No By Representative PETTIT

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1 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANA LEGSLATVE JOURNAL WEDNESDAY, JUNE 7,1995 SESSON OF TH OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY No. 47 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATVES The House convened at 10 a.m., e.d.t. THE SPEAKER (MATTHEW J. RYAN) PRESDNG PRAYER REV. B. PENROSE HOOVER, senior pastor of Salem Lutheran Church, Lebanon, Pennsylvania offered the following prayer: Let us pray: Holy God, keep us always mindhl that You have given us this good land as our heritage. Make us always remember Your generosity and constantly do Your will. We thank You, too, for this grand Commonwealth and for those who serve in this Assembly. Guide them to do their work of public service in a spirit of wisdom, kindness, and justice. Bless our Commonwealth with honest industry, truthful education, and an honorable way of life. Save us from violence, discord, and confusion; from pride and arrogance; and from every evil course of action. Defend our libertjes, and guide the deliberations of this House, that the common good of all may be faithfully served. When times are prosperous, let our hearts be thankful, and in troubled times, do not let our trust in You fail. Amen. PLEDGE OF ALLEGANCE (The Pledge of Allegiance was recited by members and visiton.) JOURNAL APPROVAL POSTPONED The SPEAKER' Without the approval the of Tuesday, June 6, 1995, will be postponed until printed. The Chair hears no objection. HOUSE BLLS NTRODUCED AND REFERRED No By Representatives BUNT, SHANER, GANNON, STEELMAN, TRELLO, ALLEN, BELARD, PSTELLA, JOSEPHS, L.. COHEN and RAMOS An Act amending Title 24 (Education) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, further providing for creditable nonschool service. 1 Referred to Committee on EDUCATON. June No By Representatives BUNT, BROWN, WALKO, FARCHLD, GEORGE, FCHTER, WAUGH, RUBLEY, MCOZZE, READSHAW, CORRGAN, COLAZZO, BAKER, CALTAGRONE, L.. COHEN, ROONEY, TRUE, CORNELL, TRELLO, B. SMTH, STABACK, GEST, DeLUCA, BELARD, LEH, TRAVAGLO. YOUNGBLOOD, BROWNE, KENNEY, E. Z. TAYLOR, KNG, LAUGHLN, HENNESSEY, TKN, RCHARDSON and BELFANT An Act amending the act of March 4, 1971 (P.L.6, NO.^), known as the Tax Reform Code of 1971, excluding smoke detectors from the sales and use tax. Referred to Committee on FNANCE, June 7,1995 No By Representatives CAWLEY and BELARD An Act amending the act of July 3, 1947 (P.L.1242, No.507), entitled "An act relating to police and tiremen's pension funds in cities of the second class A, and directing such cities to appropriate certain moneys thereto, and requiring reports and audits," and the act of September 23, 1959 (P.L.970, No.400), referred to as the Second Class A City Employe Pension Law, further providing for credit for militaq service. Referred to Committee on URBAN AFFARS, June 7,1995. No By Representative PETTT An Act amending the act of March 10, 1949 (P.L.30, No.14), known as the Public School Code of 1949, authorizing boards of directors to contract for services; and making an editorial change. Referred to Committee on EDUCATON, June 7, 1995 No By Representatives ADOLPH, RAYMOND, FARGO, CONT, HERSHEY, SCHULER, NALOR, WAUGH, MARKOSEK, COLAZZO, CLARK, SATHER, FLEAGLE, FARMER, PETTT, SERAFN, LYNCH, GODSHALL, DENT,

2 1280 LEGSLATVE J( TULL, EGOLF, CORRGAN, TRELLO, GEST, KNG, PTTS FARCHLD, MATLAND, J. TAYLOR, WOGAN E. Z. TAYLOR, RUBLEY, BARD, L.. COHEN, FAJT ARMSTRONG, CLYMER, STEELMAN, BATTSTO HERMAN, GGLOTT, PLATTS, MLLER, HENNESSEY LEVDANSKY, MERRY, COY, LEH, SCHRODER, BROWNE TANGRETT, HESS and KENNEY An Act amending the act of March 4, 1971 (P.L.6, No.2). known a! the Tax Reform Code of 1971, reducing the capital stock and franchist tax. Referred to Committee on FNANCE, June 7, JRNAL - HOUSE JUNE 7 No By Representatives COWELL, TKM, D. W. SNYDER, VEON, E. Z. TAYLOR, MCHLOVC, MARKOSEK, LESCOVTZ, LEVDANSKY, VAN HORNE, DeLUCA, PRESTON, GGLOTT, BELARD, MELO, HALUSKA, CURRY, GODSHALL and PSTELLA An Act amending the act of December 21, 1988 (P.L.1881, No.184), entitled "An act providing for agreements between sales representatives and their principals," further defining "principal"; and further providing for commissions and for noncompliance. Referred to Committee on COMMERCE AND ECONOMC DEVELOPMENT, June 7, No By Representak~ves DeLUCA, GGLOTT COWELL, TRELLO, BELFANT, TRCH, COLAZZO VAN HOFNE, FAJT, MELO, TRAVAGLO, TANGRETT SANATO, LaGRO'TA, PETRARCA, GEORGE, READSHAW BEBKO-JONES, D. R. WRGHT, DeWEESE, CAPPABANCA KASER, COLAFELLA, DERMODY, WALKO, YEWCC RAMOS, JAMES, RCHARDSON, LAUGHLN, MARKOSEK HERSHEY, ROBERTS, COY, LYNCH, HALUSKA and BOSCOLA An Act amending the act of Manh 4, 1971 (P.L.6, NO.^), known a the Tax Reform Code of 1971, further providing for the imposition 01 personal inwme tax and for the imposition of corporate net income m; and repealing the tax on annuity considerations. Referred to Committee on FNANCE, June 7,1995. No By Representatives NALOR, STSH, MAh'DERNO, HARHART, SATHER, ZMMERMAN, RAYMOND, LYNCH, GEST, KNG, SHANER, HALUSKA, BELARD, PETTT, BELFANT, MATLAND, J. TAYLOR, FAJT, VANCE, BAll'STO, MELO, PLATTS, E. Z. TAYLOR, BARD, CORRGAN, STEELMAN, TRELLO, TKN, EGOLF, HENNESSEY, GODSHALL, MERRY, COY, CLARK, WAUGH, TULL, MARSCO, SURRA, STERN, HORSEY, KENNEY, STEL, OLASZ, BROWNE and MCHLOVC An Act amending Title 75 (Vehicles) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, further providing for manner of providing proof of insurance. Referred to Committee on NSURANCE, June 7, 1995 No By Representatives PETRONE, WOGAN, McCALL, WAUGH, TlGUE, WALKO, READSHAW, FARGO, J. TAYLOR, HERMAN, BELARD, CORRGAN, STABACK, TKN, YOUNGBLOOD, CLARK, RUBLEY, SCHRODER, ARGALL, HENNESSEY, SATHER, LUCYK, SAYLOR, BROWN, E. Z. TAYLDR, PSTELLA, BATTSTO, BELFANT, EGOLF, SERAFN, RCHARDSON, RAMOS, MCHLOVC and SANATO An Act amending Title 75 (Vehicles) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, providing for duties of drivers at emergency scene. Refend to Committee on TRANSPORTATON, June 7, No By Representatives PHLLLPS, McCALL, DEMPSEY, BELFANT, COY, ALLEN, FCHTER, FEESE, COLAZZO, CAPPABANCA, KNG, STERN, BELARD, JAROLN, MERRY, B. SMTH, STABACK, SATHER, RAYMOND, STSH, LEVDANSKY, GRUTZA, TRAVAGLO, DeLUCA, SAYLOR, GODSHALL, HERSHEY, FARGO, CORRGAN, TRELLO, GEST, HESS, HENNESSEY, SURRA and SANATO An Act amending Title 34 (Game) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, requiring the Pennsylvania Game Commission to implement at least two junior hunter projects to increase and sustain interest in hunting. Referred to Committee on GAME AND FSHERES, June 7, No By Representatives PHLLPS, MARKOSEK, STSH, LYNCH, BAKER, FCHTER, M. N. WRGHT, LEH, STABACK, TRUE, SAYLOR, SATHER, SERAFN, TRELLO, STETLER, ARMSTRONG, HENNESSEY, MERRY, MARSCO, SEMMEL, YOLJNGBLOOD, EGOLF, HESS, BROWNE and TKN An Act amending Title 75 (Vehicles) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, fiuther providing for exemptions from the motorbus road tax. Referred to Committee on TRANSPORTATON, June 7,1995. No By Representatives LAWLESS, SATHER, E. Z. TAYLOR, SAYLOR, TRELLO and J. TAYLOR An Act amending the act of June 13, 1967 (P.L.31,No.21), known as the Public Welfare Code, further providing for definitions, for prohibited acts related to practitioners, providers and purveyors and for venue in actions relating to Medicaid Fraud and abuse control. Referred to Committee on HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVCES, June 7,1995. No By Representatives CVERA, DURHAM, DeLUCA, RAYMOND, MCOZZE and VAN HORNE An Act relating to the establishment of a construction code for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; and making repeals. Referred to Committee on LOCAL GOVERNMENT, June 7, 1995.

3 1995 LEGSLATVE JC No By Representatives MCHLOVC, TRELLO, TKN, KUKOVCH, DeWEESE, BUXTON, SERAFN, VAN HORNE, JOSEPHS, BAKER, WOGAN, READSHAW, ROBNSON, COWELL, KASER, DeLUCA, ROONEY, STABACK, FAJT, M. COAEN, McCALL, WOZNAK, RCHARDSON, DEMPSEY, NALOR, BOSCOLA, MLLER, SHANER, LaGROTTA, HALUSKA, STEELMAN, WALKO, CHADWCK and J. TAYLOR An Act providing for pet sterilization; establishing the Pet Population Control Fund in the State Treasury; providing for a SpayiNeuter Companion Animals license plate; establishing the Pet Population Control Program; ~roviding for financial incentives for pet sterilization; and providing penalties. Referred to Committee on AGRCULTURE AND RURAL AFFARS, June 7,1995. No By Representatives J. TAYLOR, BROWNE, THOMAS, YOUNGBLOOD, BOYES, STETLER, GEST, FCHTER, PESC, E. Z. TAYLOR, BOSCOLA, MCHLOVC, BELFANT, TKN, TRELLO, RUDY, CAWLEY, WOGAN, KENNEY, PSTELLA, REBER, O'BREN, DeLUCA, CVERA, SERAFN, WALKO and RCHARDSON An Act amending the act of March 4, 1971 (P.L.6, No.2). known as the Tax Reform Code of 1971, further defining "community services"; and increasing the total amount and the allocated portions of the Neighborhood Assistance Tax Credit. Referred to Committee on FNANCE, June 7, HOUSE RESOLUTONS NTRODUCED AND REFERRED No. 167 By Representatives LESCOVTZ, COLAZZO, COY, GODSHALL, BOSCOLA, GEST, CAPPABANCA, SERAFN, TRELLO, TGUE, B. SMTH, DeWEESE, YOUNGBLOOD, PERZEL and BELFANT A Concurrent Resolution encouraging and suppotting full participation by Taiwan, the Republic of China, in the United Nations. Referred to Committee on NTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFARS, June 7, No. 169 By Representatives THOMAS, RAMOS, EVANS, YOUNGBLOOD, JOSEPHS, WLLAMS, WASHNGTON, PSTELLA, KUKOVCH and JAMES A Resolution directing the Commerce and Economic Development Committee to make an investigation of Bell Atlantic in relation to Act 67 of Referred to Committee on RULES, June 7, 1995 rrnal - HOUSE No. 170 HASAY By Representatives SERAFN, LESCOVTZ and A Resolution memorializing Congress to study certain matters relating to the European Common Market. Referred to Committee on NTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFARS, June 7, SENATE MESSAGE HOUSE AMENDMENTS CONCURRED N BY SENATE The clerk of the Senate, being introduced, informed that the Senate has concurred in the amendments made by the House of Representatives to SB 245, PN SENATE MESSAGE AMENDED HOUSE BLL RETURNED FOR CONCURRENCE AND REFERRED TO COMMTTEE ON RULES The clerk of the Senate, being introduced, returned HB 861, PN 1950, with information that the Senate has passed the same with amendment in which the concurrence of the House of Representatives is requested. GUESTS NTRODUCED The SPEAKER. The Chair is pleased to welcome to the hall of the House today, as the guests of Representative Leh and Representative Reber, Columbia Leh, the wife of Dennis Leh, and her sister, Joann Artim. Would the guests please rise. They are here to the left of the Speaker. Here today as the guests of Representative Zimmerman are members of the fourth grade class of the Brownstown Elementary School. They are here today with their teachers, Mrs. Kulp, Mrs. Kurtz, and Mr. Shellenberger. They are sitting in the gallery. Would the guests please rise. LEAVES OF ABSENCE The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman, Mr. Barley, have leaves of absence? The gentleman, Mr. Barley, indicates there is no request for leaves of absence from the Republican Caucus. Does the gentleman, Mr. Belardi, have a request for leaves on behalf of the Democratic Caucus? Mr. BELARD. Mr. Speaker, would like to request leave for the following members: Representative MMALCH from Westmoreland County; Representative LESCOVTZ from Washington County; and Representative OLASZ from Allegheny County. The SPEAKER. Without objection, leaves will be granted. The Chair hears no objection. Mr. BELARD. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

4 LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE JUNE 7 MASTER ROLL CALL The SPEAKER. The Chair is about to take today's master roll call. Members will proceed to vote. The following roll call was recorded: Adolph Allen Argall Armstrong Baker Bard Barley Banisto Bebka-Jones Belardi Belfanti Bimelin Bishop Blaum Boswla BOYS Brawn Browne Bunt Butkovitz Buxtan Caltagirone Cappabianca C m Carone Cawley Chadwick Civaa Clark Clymer Cohen, L.. Cohm M. Colafella Colaim Conti Cornell Corpora Colrigan Cowell COY curry Daley DeLuca Dempsey Dent Dermody DeWeese Egolf Evans Fairchild F@t Fargo Fanner Fewe Fichter Fleagle Flick Gamble G-on Geist George Gigliotti Gladeck Gadshall Gordner Gruitza Gmppo Habay Haluska Hanna Harhai Hasay Hmessey Hman Hershey Hess Horsey Hutchinson tkin Jadlowiec James Jarolin Jasephs Kaiser Keller Kmey King Kirkland Krebs Kkovich LaGrotta Laughlin Lawler Lederer Lynch Maitland Major Manderino Markosek Marriw Masland Mayemik McCall McGeehan McGill Melia Merry Michlavic Micavie Miller Mundy Nailor Nickol NY=- O'Brien Oliver Perzel Pesci Petrarca Petrone Pettit Phillips Picwla Pistella Pins Plans Preston Rmos Raymond Readshaw Reba Reinard R~chardm Rieger Roberts Robinson Roebuck Rohrer Raoney Rubley Rudy DiGirolamo Leh Sainato Donahlcci Levdansky Santoni Ryan, Saylor Schroder Schuler Scrimenti Semmel Serafini Shaner Sheehan Smith, B. Smith, S. H. Snyder, D. W. Staback Stairs Steelman Steil Stem Stetler Stish Strimnaner Sturla Sum Tangreni Taylor, E. 2. Taylor,. Thomas Tigue Travaglio Trello Trich True Tulli Vance Van Home Veon Vitali Walk0 Washington Waugh Williams Wow Womiak WrighS D. R. Wright, M. N. Yewcic Youngblood Zimmmman Z'Jg Druce Lloyd Sather Speaker Durham Lucyk Lescovitr Mihalich Olasr TRANSPORTATON COMMTTEE MEETNG The SPEAKER. For what purpose does the gentleman, Mr. Geist, rise? Mr. GEST. Mr. Speaker, would it be appropriate at this time to call a meeting, a very brief meeting, of the Transportation Committee at the far, far back of the House? We have one hill to kick out, and that is it. The SPEAKER. There will be an immediate meeting of the w Transportation Committee in the rear of the hall of the House. BlLLS SGNED BY SPEAKER Bills numbered and entitled as follows having been prepared for presentation to the Governor, and the same being correct, the titles were publicly read as follows: An Act amending Title 75 (Vehicles) of the Pemsylvania Consolidated Statutes, increasing the maximum speed limit on certain interstate and other highways. An Act appropriating money from the Sunny Day Fund to the Depanment of Commerce for various projects throughout this Commonwealth for fiscal year Whereupon, the Speaker, in the presence of the House, signed the same. The SPEAKER. For the information of the House, the Speaker just signed the bill that increased the speed limit from 55 to 65, not that it would interest anyone here. Remember, though, the effective date; remember as you are driving home that the effective date is not today. CALENDAR BLLS ON THRD CONSDERATON BLL PASSED OVER ".rr NOT VOTNG4 The SPEAKER. The Chair turns to page 1 of today's calendar. HB 1509 is over. \rr

5 1995 LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE 1283 The House proceeded to third consideration of HB 1400, PN 2020, entitled: An Act creating the Depamnent of Conservation and Natural Resources consisting of certain functions of the Department of Environmental Resources and the Department of Community Affairs; renaming the Department of Environmental Resources as the Department of Environmental Protection; defining the role of the Environmental Quality Board in the Department of Environmental Protection; making changes - to responsibilities of the State Conservation Commission and the Department of Agriculture; transferring certain powers and duties to the Department of Health and Human Services; and repealing inconsistent On the question, Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? Mr. REBER offered the following amendment No. A3067: Amend Title, page, line 22, by striking out "AND HUMAN SERVCES" Amend Table of Contents, page 3, line 4, by striking out "AND HUMAN SERVCES" Amend Sec. 502, page. - 61, line 7, bv striking - out ", EXCEPT SECTON 7.5" Amend Sec. 505, page 67, line 14, by striking out "AND HUMAN SERVCES'' Amend Sec. 505, page 67, line 16, by striking out "AND HUMAN SERVCES" On the question, The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman, Mr. Reber. Mr. REBER. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the amendment on the board before the House is an amendment offered by myself and the minority chairman, Representative George. This is a technical amendment to clear up two inaccuracies that were inadvertently placed in committee. The "Human Services" title which currently does not exist in law will be removed, and language will also be put in which will allow the Environmental Quality Board to continue to have jurisdiction over the State SP plan (State implementation plan) pursuant to the Air Control Act. This is an agreed-to amendment, and would urge its adoption by the House. Thank you. The SPEAKER. On the question of the adoption of the amendment, the Chair recognizes the gentleman, Mr. George. Mr. GEORGE. Mr. Speaker, we are in complete agreement on this technical amendment. The following roll call was recorded: Adolph Allen Argall Armstrong Baker Bard Barley Banisto Bebko-Jones Brlardi Belfanti Birmelin Bishop Blaum Boscola Boyes Brown Browne Bunt Butkovitz Buxton Caltagirone Cappabianca Carn Carone Cawley Chadwick Civera Clark Clymer Cohen, L.. Cohen, M. Colafella Colaizzo Conti Cornell Corpora Carrigan Cowell Cov Egalf Evans Fairchild Fajt Fargo Farmcr Feese Fichter Fleagle Flick Gamble Cannon Geirt George Gigliani Gladeck Codshall Gordner Gruita GNPPO Habay Haluska Hma Harhart Hasay Hennerrey Herman Hershey Hess Horsey Hutchinson ltkin Jadlowiec James Jarolin Josephs Kaiser Keller Kenney Kine Lynch Maitland Major Manderino Markosek Marsico Maland Mayernik McCall McGeehan McGill Melio Merry Michlovic Micovie Miller Mundy Nailar Nickol Nyce O'Brien Oliver Perzel Pesci Petrarca Perone Penit Phillips Piccola Pistella Pins Plans Preston Ramos Raymond Readrhaw Reber Reinard Richardson Rieeer Saylor Schroder Schuler Scrimenti Semmel Serafini Shaner Sheehan Smith, B. Smith, S. H. Snyder, D. W. Staback Suirs Steelman Steil Stem Stctler Stish Shinmaner Sturla Surra Tansreni Taylor, E. Z. Taylor, J. Thomas Tigue Travaglio Trello Trich True Tulli Vance Van Home Veon Vitali Walko Washington WWh Williams Woaan C& irkl land RO&~S Wumiak Daley Krebs Robinson Wright, D. R. DeLuca Kukovich Roebuck Wright, M. N. Dempsey LaGrotta Rohrer Yewcic Dent LaYghlin Rooney Youngblood Dmnody Lawless Rubley Zimmerman DeWeese Lederer Rudy ZUK DiGiralamo Leh Sainato Donatucci Levdansky Santoni Ryan, Druce Lloyd Sather Speaker Durham Lucyk NOT VOTNG4 ~escovitr Mihalich Olasz The majority having voted in the affirmative, the question was determined in the affirmative and the amendment was agreed to. On the question, Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration as amended?

6 Mr. COHEN offered the following amendment No. A3078: Amend Table of Contents, page 3, line 5, by striking out "AGRCULTURE" and Labor and ndustry Amend Sec. 502, page 61, lines 23 and 24, by striking out all of said lines Amend Sec. 506, page 68, line 6, by striking out "AGRCULTURE" and insening Labor and lndusby Amend Sec. 506, page 68, line 8, by striking out "AGRCULTURE" and Labor and ndustry On the question, The SPEAKER. On the amendment, the Chair recognizes the gentleman. Mr. COHEN. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this amendment is amendment A addresses the issue of which department should enforce the Seasonal F m Labor Act of Under current law, the Department of Labor and ndustry enforces those sections of the Farm Labor Act which refer to wages and hours as well as the registration of crew leaders who organize migrant farmworkers or day haulers. DER (Department of Environmental Resources), under current law, administers section 3 of the Seasonal Fann Labor Act, which deals with housing and sanitation, especially the permitting and inspection of migrant labor camps. HB 1400 as originally drafted left this section intact. The committee inserted an amendment which, among other things, transferred DER's enforcement powers to the Department of Agriculture. Several months ago this House voted to transfer DER's Seasonal Farm Labor Act powers to the Department of Health. Since then, there have been discussions about merging the Department of Health with the Department of Welfare. Given the uncertainty of this issue, think it is time that the House do finally what it should have considered years ago, and that is to unify the Seasonal Farm Labor Act under the Department of Labor and ndustry. This makes sense from a budgetaq standpoint. t allows for appropriate staftkg of that program, and the staffcan he trained to enforce the entire act. t removes the unfortunate circumstance where the registration of crew leaders who recruit migrant workers is done by one department and the permitting of the migrant labor camps which houses the migrant workers is done by another department. t also makes no sense to have two sets of inspectors from two different departments with two different missions. t is simply more eficient and more accountable to have one agency administer the act. Secondly, would argue that placing enforcement of the health and safety portion of the Seasonal Farm Labor Act under the Department of Agriculture sets up some unfortunate conflicts. The Department of Agriculture's mission is to promote and support Pennsylvania agriculture - its farmers, growers, and agribusiness. The mandate of the Seasonal F m Labor Act is to insure basic health, safety, and wage standards for farmworkers. Administering this act, the Department of Agriculture will be in the rare and unfortunate position of citing large and medium-sized agricultural interests for violations under this act, or worse, succumbing to the farm organization pressures that are institutionalized in this LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE JUNE 7 department. t is this type of mission conflict that proponents of this bill have cited as the reason DER needs to be restructured. n addition, several of the areas covered by section 3 being transferred to Agriculture under this bill are clearly within the expertise of the Department of Labor and ndustry, such as w building inspection of farm labor camps, fire and panic compliance, and setting occupancy limits. n the case of fire and panic regulations, arguably the Department of Labor and ndustry already has jurisdiction, regardless of what this bill says. The best way to clarify responsibility and remove redundancy is to unify enforcement of the Seasonal Farm Labor Act under the Department of Labor and ndusuy. This amendment is backed by the Pennsylvania Council of Churches, by the Pennsylvania Catholic Conference, by w the Pennsylvania AFL-CO. Copies of letters from the Pennsylvania Council of Churches and the Pennsylvania Catholic Conference are either on your desk now or will be on your desk very shortly. The fm labor people, workers, are the people most in need of protection, and the Department of Labor and ndustry is the agency best equipped to give them protection without any conflict of interest. urge support of my amendment. The SPEAKER. The Chair thanks the gentleman. The Chair recognizes the gentleman, Mr. George. Mr. GEORGE. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from Philadelphia has the same concern that and the Committee on Conservation have had over the several months in that we felt that DER in no way should be the department that would oversee, instruct, and look into the matters of seasonal farm labor. At one time an amendment that had proposed would have done the same thing that Mr. Cohen would have done. Unfortunately, what we are trying to do is to get it into a department that can handle it, handle it to the benefit of these employees, and handle it well. The Department of Labor, 1 have been instructed, does not want the responsibility and feels that it can be handled by the Department of Agriculture in a fair, expeditious, and proper manner, and that is the reason, sadly, ask that we not support this amendment. The SPEAKER. The Chair thanks the gentleman. The Chair recognizes the gentleman, Mr. Reber. Mr. REBER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, concur with the remarks of the minority chairman of the Environmental Resources Committee. Both our staffs, as well as members of our leadership, have also received the same type of advisoes from the Department of Labor and ndustry. 1 certainly think that the expertise lies with the Agriculture Department and the hill should stand as is, and we w must respectfully ask that the Cohen amendment be defeated. Thank you. The SPEAKER. On the question, the Chair recognizes the gentleman from Philadelphia, Mr. Ramos. Mr. RAMOS. Mr. Speaker, rise to support the Cohen amendment. believe that concur with Representative Cohen and other speakers that the transfer of the enforcement of this act to the Department of Agriculture, think, is wrong. t is inappropriate. could tell you that my father was a farmworker for 40 years, and my family worked in the farms, and know firsthand, since early in my life, the hard work that it takes to work in the farms, and what 1 have seen also is that a lot of the famiworkers have very & b

7 LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE p~ p~ little protection. believe that the Department of Agriculture's main effort is to support the fanners in this Commonwealth, and think it is appropriate, hut it is not appropriate for that department to oversee and enforce the protection of fannworkers. So urge my colleagues to support the Cohen amendment. Thank you. The SPEAKER. The Chair thanks the gentleman. The Chair recognizes the gentleman, Mr. Cohen. Mr. COHEN. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in regard to the position of the leader of the Department of Lahor and ndustry, would just comment, as the former chairman of the Lahor Relations Committee, that the Secretaries of Labor and ndustry come and go. The average is about 2 years, and indeed, Commissioner Butler has only pledged to serve 2 years. He is a career Federal employee who has a 2-year leave of absence from the Federal Government. think this is a long-tun, institutional interest which totally transcends the position of anybody who heads any position in this administration. t is a matter of the whole mission of the individual departments, and the mission of the Department of Labor and ndustry and its personnel is far more likely to yield satisfactory results for farmworkers than the mission of the Department of Agriculture. Again reiterate urging support for this amendment. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman, Mr. Nickol. Mr. NCKOL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. heard one gentleman say that fmworkers have little protection with regard to labor camps. heard another gentleman talk about mission conflict. Let me tell you, these camps are inspected not only by OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration); they are inspected by the Federal Department of Labor; they are inspected by the fire and panic people in Labor and ndustry; they are inspected by the wage and hour people in Labor and ndustry; they are inspected by DER. f anything, the status of mission conflict takes new meaning when you look at the regulation of labor camps. Speaking on behalf of many of the hitgrowers whom represent, what they would like more than anything is one sane set of regulations. They have people coming from Washington who will fine them in a moment's notice that there is a hole in a screen. They have people coming from Washington who will fine them in a moment's notice if there are soda cans all over the yards. One of our local growers was fined because they had a wet floor, assuming the plumbing was not working. What happened when they talked to the people who were at the camp, they found out the floor had just been mopped, and that is why the floor was wet. f anything, these growers will want one sane set of regulations and one agency that they can work with, and they support the Department of Agriculture having this responsibility. 1 urge defeat of this amendment. Thank you. Bebko-Jones Belardi Belfanti Bishop Blaum Boscola Butkovitz Bunton Caltagirone Cappabianca Cam Cmne Cawley Cohen, M. Colafella Colai~w Corpora Corrigan Cowell Cuny Dalcy )el.uca Dermody Adolph Allen Argall Armstrong Bakcr Bard Barley Battist" Birmelin Boyes Brawn Brawne Bunt Chadwkk Civera Clark Clymer Cohen, L.. Conti Comell COY Dempsey Dent DiGivolamo Dmce Durham Egolf Fairchild Fargo DeWeese Donatucci Evans Fajt Giglioni Gruitra Horsey likin James Jarolin Josephs Kaiser Keller Kirkland Kukovich LaGrotta Laughlin.ederer Levdansky Lloyd Manderino Markorrk Farmer Feese Fichter Fleagle Flick Gamble Cannon Geist George Gladeck Godshall Gordner Gruppo lrabay Haluska Hanna Harhan Haray Hennessey Herman Henhey Hess Hutchinaon Jadlowiec Kennry King Krebs Lawless Mayemik McCall McGeehan Melio Michlavic Mundy Oliver Pesci Petrarca Pnmne Pistella Preston Ramos Readrhaw Richardson Rieger Roberts Robinson Roebuck Kooney Sainato Scrimenti Leh Lucyk Lynch Maitland Major Marsico Masland McCill Mmy Micozzie Miller Nailor Nickol Nyce O'Brien PerLel Penit Phillips Piccola Pins Plans Raymond Reber Reinard Rohrer Rubley Rudy Santoni NOT VOTNG4 Shaner Staback Steelman Stetler Sturla Surra Tangreni Thomas Tigue Travaglio Trello Trich Van Home Veon Vitali Walko Washington Williams Womiak Wright. D. R. Ycwcic Youngblood Sather Saylor Schroder Schuler Semmel Serafini Sheehan Smith, B. Smith, S. H. Snyder, D. W. Stairs Steil Stem Stish Strinmaner Taylor, E. Z. Taylor, J. True Tulli Vance Waugh Wogan Wright, M. N. Zimmerman Lug Ryan, Speaker The following roll call was recorded: Lescovitr Mihalich Olasz Less than the majority having voted in the affirmative, the question was determined in the negative and the amendment was not agreed to.

8 , 1286 LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE Amend Table of Contents, page 2, lines 16 through 24, by striking out all of said lines and Section Advisory committees. Section 316. Ex ofticio memberships of secretary. Section Con!ncts and agreements. Section Transfer of funds. Section 319. Renumbering regulations. Section 320. Transfer provisions. Section 321. Civil service status. Amend Sec. 315, page 52, lines 21 through 30; page 53, lines through 30; page 54, lines 1 through 11, by striking out all of said lines on said pages Amend Sec. 316, page 54, line 12, by striking out "316" and Amend Sec. 317, page 55, line 7, by striking out "317" and 316 Amend Sec. 318, page 55, line 15, by striking out "318" and 317 Amend Sec. 319, page 56, line 2, by striking out "319" and 318 Amend Sec. 320, page 57, line 11, by striking out "320" and -." JLY Amend Sec. 321, page 58, line 13, by striking out "321" and 320 Amend Sec. 322, page 59, line 19, by striking out "322" and On the question, The SPEAKER. On the question of the adoption of thc amendment A3060, the Chair recognizes the gentleman from Delaware County, Mr. Vitali. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amendment 3060 deals with the issue of the citizens advisoy committee. The citizens advisory committee is a watchdog citizens group composed of 19 members whose purpose is to serve as an oversight function to the Department of Environmental Resources to develop long-range strategies and the opportunity, as the title suggests, to give citizen input to these issues. To date, there is one 19-member citizens advisory committee. What HB 1400 would do would be to create two citizens advisory committees, one for the parks and forests and the other for environmental regulation. What my amendment would do would be to retain one citizens advisory committee. The citizens advisory committee itself has spoken on this issue. The citizens advisory committee wants to retain its current identity, at least for the time being. There is this concern, as we divide the deparrment up today into two sections, that we will lose that holistic approach. The citizens advisory committee, at least for the time being, wants to be one so as to at least serve as the unifying force here. 1 JUNE 7 certainly do not want my credibility questioned, so let me read Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration as to you from what the citizens advisory committee said on the issue. amended? This is +ted May 10 of this year: "We believe that this aouroach".. - meaning the unified approach - "will provide a commun~cation * Mr. VTAL offered the following amendment No. A3060: link between the resources management - and environmental protection program areas. We also believe that in these times of government austerity, a single CAC will prove to be more cost effective." There are other good reasons for keeping one citizens advisory committee. Secretruy Seif repeatedly this year has bemoaned the fact of the proliferation of advisory committee after advisory committee in the environmental area. Right now we are in excess of over 30 advisory committees, and there is another amendment today that may even create another one. f this amendment fails, yet another advisory committee will he created. Everyone wants citizen inout, as much as the next nerson. hut... ~~~ - ~~. this is not the way to do it. The citizens advisory committee has good input currently. This will just confuse the issue. The citizens advisorv committee is also more cost- effective^ ~ Currently, right now, there is a two-person staff. This staff has a. budget, and if we were to create a second advisory committee, you would have to increase staff and increase costs. n this age of govemment austerity, in this age of cost-cutting, we just do not. want to do that. There is no good reason. f we get into the implementation of this act and it appears that the interests of the Commonwealth would be better served by separate advisory committees, we can do that, but at least in this transitional stage, we ought to keep the holistic approach and keep a single citizens advisory committee. urge a "yes" vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Montgomery County, Mr. Reber. Mr. REBER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, would urge the rejection of the Vitali amendment. The citizens advisory committee, as it is constituted in the bill, will provide a citizens advisory committee specifically for and with the expertise necessary to complement the duties, obligations, and statutory responsibilities of the new Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. From a practical standpoint, think it is important that we develop high expectation of environmental integrity and expertise within the new department. think we can do that by giving it its own specialized advisory committee. Additionally, from a practical standpoint, as have said in committee, as have said to the offerer of the amendment, there very conceivably could be many instances where the Department of Environmental Protection, its Secretary, and its advisory committee could be meeting in one part of the State or w one part of the country when in fact the Secretary for the newly to be created Department of Conservation and Natural Resources would be meeting and needing the desire of the counsel of its own advisory committee. The impracticality of two particular - committees being at different places at the same time is obvious. think, additionally, it is also important that we want to enhance the environmental voice. We want to enhance environmental prestige in the new department. This is the way that we can do it, and think we are in no way, shape, or form taking away any of the members of the existing CAC for the Department of Environmental Protection. Finally, Mr. Speaker, if in fact there is ever a need for overlapping jurisdiction of discussion, there can certainly be a '

9 joint meeting of the Secretaries and both committees. think it is would just request that you do what your citizens want, and practical, think it is sane, and would urge rejection of the what your citizens have said to you is, we would like to stay Vitali amendment in order that the new department can in fact unified for the time being. function with its own citizens advisory committee on ask you to support the amendment. Thank you. environmental affairs as it relates to conservation and natural resources. Thank you. The SPEAKER. The gentleman, Mr. George, is recognized. Mr. GEORGE. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, 1 think we would be remiss if we did not advise The following roll call was recorded: the members of this body that over the past several weeks members of the CAC had visited both Mr. Reber's ofice and that that hold in an effort to convince us that in no way should the YEAS-95 Environmental Quality Board be abolished. Their argument was very pointed. t was thus: Citizen input is very important, and Argall Dermody Markosek Sainato eliminating that body would do great harm in overseeing the DeWeese Masland Santoni Bebka-Jones Danatucci Mayemik Scrimenti environmental laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. nd,,~i c.,~,,q hilrrrlt " chmpr Now we have before us, supposedly, some of those members ~ ~lfmti Fait McFeehan Staback insisting that only one CAC &up be held accountable for this public input. 1 want to remind all of the members that there is no line item for the CAC in that it is budgeted from the funds of the department. f the department that we have had great difficulty in convincing now understands that citizen input is what we are after and what is most needed for us to be able to continue to make the public aware of what is going on, then would daresay we should not support the Vitali amendment, and that is the reason will vote against it. Thank you. The SPEAKER. The Chair thanks the gentleman. On the question, does the gentleman, Mr. Vitali, seek recognition? Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. just want to hghlight a few points. t is my hope that in today's debate we can put partisanship aside and just look at the substance of the issues. 1 want to remind you that my amendment simply keeps things as they are for the time being. t is not changing anything. also want to remind you that the citizens advisory committee, those who are our constiments, the people you represent, the people who vote for you, they are the people on this committee, and do vou know what vour citizens have said to vou throueh the ~ ~ - citizens advisory committee? They have said to you, we want to keep it as it is for the time being. So the citizens advisory com~iiittee who is in a better position to assess this situation than or you have, the citizens advisory committee who has many members collectively at work for tens and tens of years on this, who have given this matter more thought than perhaps 1 or you have, what the citizens advisory committee has said is, we would like this unified for the time being. think we should listen to our citizens. think they are in a better position to make these decisions. n fact, think that is what we charged them with when we created the citizens advisory committee in the seventies. think what we are hearing with these objections is blatant partisanship, is sour grapes. do not think it is dealing with the issue on its substance. With regard to the argument of dificulty in scheduling two committees, think that argument on its face is not valid. We ourselves juggle meeting afler meeting in the course of a week and a month. f we cannot have two groups who do not have the wherewithal to juggle their respective schedules, they are not going to be of any service anyway. We have to assume they do have that wherewithal. think that scheduling is a real nonissue. Bishop Blaum Boscola Butkovitl Buxton Caltagirone Cappabianca Car" Carone Cawley Cohen, M. Colafella Colairro Corpora Corrigan Cowcll COY C w Dalev Adolph Allen Amstrone - 1 Baker Barley Ranisto 1 Birmelin Bayes Brown Browne Bunt Chadwick Civera Clark Clymer Cohen, L.. Conti Comell DeLuca Dempsey Dent DiGirolamo Druce Durham Egolf Fairchild Fargo Gamble Gordner Hess Horsey ltkin James Josephs Kaiser Keller Kirkland Kukovich 1,aGrona Laughlin Lawless Lederer.evdmsl\y Lloyd Lucyk Manderino Farmer Feese Fichter Fleagle Flick Cannon Geist George Gigliotti Gladeck Godshall Gruitza Gruppo Habay Haluska Hanna Harhan Hasay Hennessey Herman Hershey Hutchinson Jadlowiec Jarolin Kenney King Krebs Melio Michlovic Mundy Nailor Nickol Oliver Pesci Petrarca Petrone Pistella Plans Proton Rcadshaw Richardson Rieger Roberts Robinson Roebuck Rooney Leh Lynch Maitland Major Marsico McGill Meny Micozie Miller Nyce O'Brien Perzzl Pettit Phillips Piccola Pitta Raymond Reber Reinard Rohrcr Rubley Rudy Sather Saylor Schroder Schuler Steelman Stetler Sturla Surra Tangreni Thomas Tigue Travaglio Trclla Vance Van Home Vwn Vitali Walko Washington Williams Yewcic Youngblood Semmel Serafini Sheehan Smith, B. Smith, S. H. Snyder, D. W Stairs Steil Stern Stish Strinmatler Taylor, E. Z. Taylor, J. Trich True Tulli Waugh wogm Womiak Wright, D. R. Wright, M. N. Zimmerntan zug Ryan. Speaker

10 ~ ~p Ramos NOT VOTNG-] EXCUSED-3 Lescovitz Mihalich Olasr Less than the majority having voted in the affirmative, the question was determined in the negative and the amendment was not agreed to. Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration as amended? Mr. VTAL offered the following amendment No. A3062: Amend Table of Contents, page 3, lines 11 and 12, by striking out all of said lines and Section Applicability. Section ~~- Reoeals. ~r Section Effective date. Amend Sec. 103, page 5, by afler line 30 "Mission of the Pennsylvania State Forest System." The mission of the Pennsylvania State Forest System is to insure the long-term health, viability and productivity of this Commonwealth's forests and to conserve native wild plants. "Mission of the Pennsylvania State Park System." The mission of the Pennsylvania State Park System is to: () Provide the citizens of this Commonwealth with opportunities for outdoor recreation in a substantially natural setting. (2) Preserve unusual and unique natural features for the benefit and enjoyment of present and future generations. (3) Provide environmental education programs. Amend Sec. 302, page 30, by between lines 2 and 3 (i) Prohibitions.-Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, the department may not authorize State forest lands to be utilized for: (1) Hotels. (2) Motels. (3) Lodges. (4) Other large-scale facilities for overnight accommodations. (5) Golf courses. (6) Tennis courts. (7) Amusement pa~ks. (8) Restaurants. (9) Convention centers. (10) Any other uses inconsistent with the mission of the Pennsylvania State Forest System. Amend Sec. 303, page 38, by between lines 7 and 8 (c) Prohibitions.-Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, the department may not authorize State parks to be utilized for: () Hotels. (2) Motels. (3) Lodges. (4) Other large-scale facilities for overnight accommodations. (5) Golf courses. (6) Tennis courts. (7) Amusement parks (8) Restaurants. LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE JUNE 7 (9) Convention centers. (10).. Anv other uses inconsistent with the mission of (he Pennsylvania State Park System. Amend Bill, page 70, by between lines 7 and 8 Section Applicability. Sections 302(i) and 303(c) shall apply only to uses initiated after the effective date of this act. Amend Sec. 1102, page 70, line 8, by striking out "1 102" and 1103 Amend Sec. 1103, page 70, line 21, by striking out " 103" and 1104 On the question, will the ~i~~~~ agree to the amendment? v The SPEAKER. On the question of the adoption of the amendment, the Chair recognizes the gentlemm. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ~~~~d~~~~ 3062 deals with the issue of con,mercial. development should be permitted in our State parks and forests. What the amendment does specifically is prohibit nine specific areas of commercial development, which it is my hope that we all. agree are inappropriate for State parks and forests. What the amendment does is prohibits commercial development of hotels, motels, lodges, other large-scale facilities for overnight accommodations, golf courses, tennis courts, amusement parks, restaurants, convention centers, and any other uses inconsistent with the mission of State parks and forests. And the amendment goes on to define what the missions of State parks and forests are. The mission of State forests was taken from the Bureau of Forestry, and the mission of State parks was taken fiom the Citizens Advisory mission statement. This amendment, want members to be aware, does not affect any existing development in State parks - any cabins or campgrounds. None of that is impacted; it is just future development of these nine items and other things inconsistent with development. This amendment has the support- And prior to when you,,mived at your desk today, you may have received a letter From the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. The people who support this amendment include the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen. t also has the support of the Pocono Mountains Chamber of Commerce. t also has the support ofdr. Maurice Goddard, who the administration brought with them to speak on the bill, so obviously, Dr. Goddard, an icon in the area of State parks and forests, has indicated he supports verbatim this amendment. The amendment also has the support of the * Citizens Advisory Council. t also has the support of the Sierra Club. However, perhaps more importantly than all these groups, this also has the support of the citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. 1 want you to know that the citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania feel vely strongly against commercialization of State parks and forests. 1 was handed a poll before came to the floor this morning that was conducted several years ago in the State Parks 2000 project. W want you to know that the question was asked, should the rustic nature of parks be maintained, which means no lodge development? Seventy-two percent - let me repeat that - a

11 LEGSLATVE JC 72 percent of those surveyed of our constituents either strongly agree or agree that there should be no lodge development and we should keep the rustic nature of the parks. think all of us are familiar with polls, and we all know when you get results in that area, that you have a consensus. Another question was asked on that poll that dealt with, should we develop several carefully selected locations? This question just dealt with one or two here and there, one or two here and there, lodges, which may have golf courses or tennis courts or marinas and so forth. When asked, just should they do that on a very limited basis, 67 percent, 67 percent of ow constituents, said they do not, do not want this sort of commercial development, and think there are many good reasons why we do not want to develop commercially State parks and forests. They are a place, as we all know, we go to avoid commercialism, to avoid the hustle and bustle of today's world. t is our only spot where we really can sense what nature really is about - the quiet, the natural setting. t is one of the last refuges not only for us but it is something that we need to maintain for our children. Now, do not think could say this any better than what the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen said in their letter, and that letter is on your desk, but am going to read it to you today. t says, "The Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs has strongly opposed further commercialization of state forests and state parks for many years and thereby supports adoption and passage of this amendment. The non-sporting community ha$ also spoken forcefully on this issue both in our door-to-door canvassing polls, and in the public opinion poll conducted by the PA Department of Environmental Resources... The overall consensus is that the taxpayers of the Commonwealth want their parks and state forest lands to continue to be in as pristine and rustic a condition as possible. They do not visit state parks and forests to be met with the same noise and confusion that exists in our cities and urban areas." And they conclude, "Furthermore, Pennsylvania's public land is the last link lefr in the Commonwealth's natural history book and we owe it to generations yet to come to leave these pages intact." could not agree with that statement more, and know many of you respect greatly the opinions of the sportsmen, and you should be aware that they have spoken on the issue. Now, additionally, there is another good reason for opposing commercialization of State parks and forests, and that is because it makes good business sense. Let me repeat that: Opposition to the commercialization of State parks and forests makes good business sense, and let me explain to you why. Last week the Joint Conservation Committee had a public hearing in Jim Thorpe, and a representative from the Pocono Mountains Chamber of Commerce stated a point, and the point he made was this: The point he made was, when you have commercialization of State parks and forests, that commercialization competes with the businesses already in that area. That takes business away from the hotels and motels and restaurants and attractions surrounding the area. There is a letter on your desk from this chamber of commerce that outlines their opposition. They say that the Pennsylvania State park and forest system is the envy of the Nation and we should not commercialize it or threaten it in any way, even in areas where there is not substantial commercial development. They also oppose development inside the park. Development, if it is to occur, should be outside the park, not inside the park. irnal - HOUSE 1289 Mr. Speaker, the mission of the State parks and forests is clearly set out. t is not as a tool for economic development, but it can complement economic development if we limit it to development outside. This is a very important issue. Once they are developed, you are not going to get them back. think it is crucially important that we face this issue head-on; we do what our people want; we do what over 70 percent of the people who elected us and whom we represent want, and that is to say no to the commercial development of State parks and forests. urge a "yes" vote for this amendment. Thank you. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman, Mr. Reber. Mr. REBER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. f the membership would lend its ear, the argument that am about to proffer on amendment 3062 is also applicable for the next amendment that the gentleman, Mr. Vitali, may offer, 3063, so we can really, as the saying goes, kill two birds with one stone. For the information of the membership, the content, the idea behind the Vitali amendment, the concern that Representative Vitali is expressing, will in fact be addressed in toto and reviewed thoroughly. As a result of HR 137, which is presently before the General Assembly and will be enacted upon by this General Assembly in the very near future, the House Tourism and Recreation Committee, in conjunction with the House Environmental Resources Committee, will be embarking on a full and thorough investigation of all the issues embodied in the argument in part already offered today by Representative Vitali. Representative Haluska has offered this resolution, and think it is incumbent upon the membership not today to deal piecemeal with this particular issue but allow both of the committees that have mentioned- And by the way, Representative Vitali is one of the members of the Environmental Committee, so he will certainly have full access to all the testimony, to all the empirical data that comes out of the hearings. What would submit to the membership, let us address this issue with full correctness, with full deliberativeness, and allow testimony to be taken and allow a report to be issued from A to Z on the issue so this body has that in front of them before we do anything, whether it be in part as embodied in 3062 and 3063, and allow us to make a deliberative review of this concept. For those reasons and with the assurance that this body will have the benefit of Representative Haluska's resolution and the report that will follow, would ask for the rejection of this amendment and the following amendment if offered by Representative Vitali. Thank you. The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Cambria, Mr. Haluska, is recognized. Mr. HALUSKA. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. rise to oppose this amendment also, on the simple grounds that we have 114 State parks across Pennsylvania and there are a lot of site-specific problems with our State parks, and HR 137 will take a long-range look at our State park system and it will deal with it. So 1 also would urge the members to defeat this amendment. Thank you. And would like to thank Representative Reber for his comments. The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Elk, Mr. Surra. Mr. SURRA. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Very briefly, think we can vote on this issue right now. t just boils down to, do you support the development of our State parks

12 1290 LEGSLATVE 50 as far as golf courses, tennis courts, and those types of things, and what our State parks should be used for? Mr. Speaker, think our State parks should be used for- We have been opposed to user fees in the past and we should oppose this. They are a place where people can bring their families, swim, picnic, and enjoy. f you want to golf, go to the country club. Mr. Speaker, one other thing. f you are concerned about the business community, if you talk about bringing a lodge or a convention center or some type of a facility like that into your State park, believe me, the businesses that now surround that area are very much opposed to this because it competes with their towist dollars. So we can vote on this right now. We can speak on this issue. think this amendment stays in line with the thinking of what our State parks are for, and encourage you to vote for this amendment. Thank you. The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Schuylkill, Mr. Argall. Mr. ARGALL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, agree with many of Representative Vitali's concerns. However, would also like to point out to the members of this House that the Joint Legislative Air and Water Pollution Control and Conservation Committee is in the midst of a wide-ranging study on the future of our State parks. This, of course, is but one of the concerns. At the meeting which chaired in Jim Thorpe last week, which Representative Vitali attended, while we did hear from people with concems about this issue, we also heard from the Center for Rural Pennsylvania, which encouraged us to look at the entire picture and to proceed very slowly. Their representative pointed out to us that in one or two or perhaps three isolated occurrences, isolated situations in high unemployment counties perhaps in western Pennsylvania, this might be their only hope for economic development. There is no private-sector competition in some of those sites. t is something that has worked well in other States. am not excited about its future in Pennsylvania, but before we render a verdict on the floor of this House of Representatives, 1 would very much appreciate the opportunity for this committee as well as the other committees to at least complete our study, and with that in mind, would ask for a negative vote until ow study is completed. The SPEAKER. The gentleman, Mr. Wright, is recognized on the Vitali amendment. Mr. D. R. WRGHT. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. just simply want to associate my remarks with those of Mr. Reber and Mr. Haluska. think it is very important for us not to rush to judgment on this issue. As Mr. Haluska pointed out, we have 114 State parks; not all of them are alike, and it may be possible to have some arrangement, such as West Virginia, the State of Ohio, Kentucky, so that we could have some different strokes for different folks, so that we do not have a cookie-cutter approach - think 1 have another cliche could use here -but would urge the defeat of this amendment. The SPEAKER. The Chair thanks the gentleman. GUESTS NTRODUCED The SPEAKER. The Chair hopes that it did not miss a group of students - the fourth grade students from the Paul W. Kutz Elementary School in Doylestown, here today as the guests of Representative Conti. Did that class leave or are they in the JRNAL - HOUSE JUNE 7 balcony? Wave your hands if you are still in the balcony. There we go. All right. Very good. 1 am told that Representative Conti somehow or another graduated from that school, from the fourth grade at least. CONSDERATON OF HB 1400 CONTNUED v The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Allegheny County, Mr. Michlovic. Mr. MCHLOVC. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, rise to oppose the amendment as well. The Tourism Committee and the Conservation Committee will begin a series of hearings to discuss this very issue, and like we have heard others speak earlier, it is important that we do not preclude a decision by those comminees to move on this legislation. We have enormous amounts of State parks and State forest lands in our State that really are inaccessible to visitors from our State or from outside the State. Other States have gone on to develop some of their properties, and this by no means is an encouragement to wipe out the native and State forest lands and game lands, hut think we have to take a look at development. 1 think we have to be reasonable about it. Other States are moving into some development so that people can have access, can have more comfortable places to stay. Frankly, some people do not like to camp. They would rather go to a lodge or a hotel room, and think that we have to make that available to them. As our committee toured Tioga County last week, that county and the cities in that county are really surrounded by State lands. They are stuck in their tax base. They cannot expand, and we have got to help them, and think one way we help them is help them develop their best asset, which is the State lands and State parks around them. We still have work to do on that, and this amendment, if it were to pass, would preclude that kind of work, and thus, 1 ask for a defeat of the Vitali amendment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from 3 Jefferson, Mr. Smith, on the Vitali amendment. Mr. S. H. SMTH. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman yield. The Chair at this time asks the gentleman, Mr. Birmelin, to preside temporarily. THE SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE (JERRY BRMELN) PRESDNG The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes y Representative Smith. Mr. S. H. SMTH. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker,, too, rise to oppose this amendment. did want to make one comment relative to some comments earlier. think that the statement by Representative Wright accurately reflects the differences in the State parks and different needs, and although he and 1 may have a little difference of opinion on the Cook Forest State Park, which has one of the finest stands of old-growth forest in the country, it is one park that think should 1 not be developed and, in that sense, agree with the direction Mr. Vitali wants to go, but think there are other parks that may he inclined to have development.

13 LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE think it is important for us to wade into this process slowly, because each park does have some special attribute that needs to he shared with the citizens of the Commonwealth, and that we should address those almost on a case-by-case basis, and think that is an important aspect that the Vitali amendment prohibits. would urge a "no" vote on the amendment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes Representative Phillips. Mr. PHLLPS. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. rise to oppose the Vitali amendment. think we ought to honor the requests of the Tourism and Recreation Committee and the Conservation Committee to allow them to go out and visit the State parks that we have in our State. You know, every State park and every State forest land is different. There may be some type of vendor service that is needed or that is wanted in that particular State park. You know, we look at horseback riding; we look at whitewater rafting; we have some State parks that have marina vendor service, and just think it is the proper thing to do because, again, the investigation will take place. The committees will go out and see what the needs are, get the input, and therefore, they can come back to the House and report to the full House, and at that time we can make a decision and we should let that happen. So therefore, oppose his amendment. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes for the second time Representative Vitali. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. think the real issue here is this: The people of our State whom we represent have spoken. Do you really think that they want to, in all due respect to the various tours we have planned - the legislators are going to go camping in West Virginia and other p&s of Pennsylvania and learn about this - do you really think that the people of our State want to spend money on these studies and trips for legislators on an issue where they have already spoken? Let me remind you, 72 percent of the people in this district have already said no to the commercialization of State parks and forests. So what this vote means today is, do you send legislators out and spend taxpayers' money taking trips to various campgrounds or do you do what 72 percent of the people of this State have directed you to do, which is to say no to the development of State parks and forests? There is a need to act on this. Representative Wright, my colleague, whom respect greatly, has a proposed lodge in his district which is threatening, as Mr. Smith said, important ecological areas. There is a golf course proposed for Prince Gallitrin State Park. There is this constant effort to encroach upon the legacy which we are duty-bound, in my view, to leave for future generations. There is the issue that has been raised of development in parks in those areas where there is not outside development. We have at least the opinion of one chamber of commerce who has said no to that because of the legacy that we must leave our children; they have said no to that. The better approach is to build outside the State parks and leave something unspoiled for our children, leave something as it was. Let our children and their children get some sense of this vanishing natural area. think we owe it to them. t is the right thing to do environmentally, it is the right thing to do from a business standpoint, and it is the right thing to do in view of what your people want. This is one of those few votes where it is a win-win-win situation. Let us put partisanship aside and let us take the easy vote. urge you to amendment. Thank you. The following roll call was recorded: YEAS-SO Bard Feese Manderino Bani'5o George Markasek Belardi Gordner Mayanik ssum Gruitza McCall Horsey McGeehan Boscola James Mundy Jaralin Nailor Butkovitr Jorepha Oliver caltagirone Kaiser Pesci ~ ~ ~ ~ p akeller b i ~ ~ ~ Petrarca Cam Kenney Pistella Cawley Kirkland Ramos Krebs Richardson ~~~~1~ Kukovich Rieger Colaim LaGrona Roberts Corpora Laughlin Robinson COY Lederer Roebuck gzucci Levdansky ~wney Lloyd Rudy Fajt Lucyk Sainato NAYS-20 A~OP~ ~urham Lynch Allen Egolf Maitland Argall Evans Major ~ ~ ~ m n Fairchild g Marsic0 Fargo Masland ~~~l~ ma McCill Bebko-Jones Fichter Melio Belfmti Fleagle Mew Flick Michlavic Gamble Micazzie Gmon Miller BU"~ Geist Nickol Buxton Gigliotti Nyce '"One Gladeck O'Brien Chadwick Godshall Pervl civera GNPPO Petrone cl,k Habay Penit Clymer Halurh Phillips Cohen, L.. Hma Piccala :gel] Harhan Pins Hasay Plans Corrigan Hennesrey Preston Cowell Herman Raymond Daley Hershey Readshaw Hess Reber EzEs",y Hutchinson Reinard Dent ltkin Rahrer oemody Jadlawiec Rubley DeWeese King Sather Ei:lamo Lawless Saylor Leh NOT VOTNG4 vote "yes" for this Santoni Scrimenti Shaner Smith, B. Steelman Stish Sturla Surra Tangreni Thomas Tigue Trello Trich vance Veo" Vitali Washington Williams Yewcic Youngblood Schroder Schuler Semmel Serafini Sheehan Smith, S. H. Snyder, D. W. Staback Stairs Steil Stem Stetler Svinmaner Taylor, E. Z. Taylor, J. Travaglio Tme Tulli Van Home Walko Waugh wogan Womiak Wright, D. R. Wright, M. N. Zimmeman zug Ryan, Speeker

14 Lescovitz Mihalich Olasz Less than the majority having voted in the affnmative, the question was determined in the negative and the amendment was not agreed to. GUEST NTRODUCED The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair will interrupt nomal business for just a brief announcement. The Chair welcomes Meg Johnson, a student at Susquehanna Univenity and a summer intern in Representative Phyllis Mundy's office. She is located to the right of the Speaker's desk. Meg Johnson, would you please stand. LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE CONSDEFUTON OF HB 1400 CONTNUED 1 On the question recutring, Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration as amended? Mr. VTAL offered the following amendment No. A3063: Amend Table of Contents, page 3, lines 11 and 12, by striking out all of said lines and Section Applicability. Section Repeals. Section Effective date. Amend Sec. 302, page 30, by between lines 2 and 3 (i) Prohibitions.- (1) The department may authorize State forest lands to be utilized for the following purposes only if the conditions under paragraph (2) are satisfied: (i) Hotels. (ii) Motels. (iii) Lodges. (iv) Other large-scale facilities for overnight accommodations. (v) Golf courses. (vi) Tennis courts. (vii) Amusement parks. (viii) Restaurants. (ix) Convention centers. (2) The following conditions must be satisfied prior to approval of any development under paragraph (1): (i) The department shall have completed an environmental impact statement concerning the proposed development. (ii) A public hearing shall have been held concerning the proposed development in the vicinity of the development and also in Harrisburg. (iii) The proposed development shall have been approved by a referendum by voters in each county that is within 25 miles of the proposed development. (iv) The proposed development shall have been approved by a majority of the members of the Senate and a majority of the members of the House of Representatives. Amend Sec. 303, page 38, by between lines 7 and 8 (c) Prohibitions.- () The department miy authorize State parks to be utilized for the following purposes only if the conditions under paragraph (2) are satisfied: w (i) Hotels. (ii) Motels. (iii) Lodges. (iv) Other large-scale facilities for overnight accommodations. (v) Golf courses. (vi) Tennis courts. (vii) Amusement narks. (vi;) ~estaurants.' (ix) Convention centers. 1 (2) The following conditions must be satisfied prior to approval of any development under paragraph (): (i) The department shall have completed an environmental impact statement concerning the proposed development. (ii) A public hearing shall have been held concerning the proposed development in the vicinity of the development and also in Harrisburg. (iii) The proposed development shall have been approved by a referendum by voters in each county that is, within 25 miles of the proposed development. (iv) The proposed development shall have been approved by a majority of the members of the Senate and a majority of the members of the House of Representatives. Amend Bill, page 70, by between lines 7 and 8 Section Applicability. Sections 302(i) and 303(c) shall apply only to uses initiated afier the effective date of this act. Amend Sec. 1102, page 70, line 8, by striking out " 102" and 1103 Amend Sec 1103, page 70, line 21, by striking out " 103" and 1104 On the question, The SPEAKER pro tempore. On that question, the Chair.: recognizes Mr. Vitali. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This amendment, in a sense, is a fall-back amendment kom amendment 3062, which was just turned down. Essentially we are dealing with those same nine categories of development - hotels, motels, lodges, golf courses, tennis courts, amusement parks, convention centers, other large-scale facilities of overnight accommodation. They are what we are dealing with. What the previous amendment did was prohibit comn~ercial development in those areas. This amendment does not prohibit commercial development but perhaps puts in some protections. t puts in some protections so that development will not be rammed through. Perhaps this is just what we need to get us beyond the time it is going to take to do the various studies we have heard that were needed today and perhaps others if those results are inconclusive. Specifically what this amendment does is this. f you want to engage in any of those nine listed developments, you must do the following: The department must conduct an economic impact study of the effect of the development on the park or forest. Two, a w W

15 public hearing must be held so that the people in the counties surrounding the development, those people who are within 25 miles of the development, so they would have an opportunity for some input. So the second thing you need is a public hearing, both in the vicinity of the park and in Harrisburg. The third thing you need is a referendum, a referendum in each county within a 25-mile radius of the park. So if you want to put a golf course in at a State park or State forest, it has to be approved by each county within 25 miles of that. Finally, in order for us -members of the House, members of the Senate - we must have the final say, because in addition, it must be approved by a majority of the House and Senate members. t is my hope that these stopgap measures are acceptable to you. To vote against an amendment like this, you are voting against public referendum, you are voting against public hearings, you are voting against an economic impact study, and you are voting against your retaining control of whether a golf course or an amusement park or a convention center is put into your ancient forest. This amendment gives us control. t is an amendment, after we conclude ow studies, we can go back and revisit. But this is a stopgap measure. t does not prohibit development, but it does put needed safeguards in so that nothing will be lost while we are studying the situation. t is not a difficult amendment, and 1 ask for a "yes" vote. Thank you. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair notices there are several conferences in several locations and would ask that members would either please be seated to have their conferences or take them in the lounge or the hack room by the post office area, please, members. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Montgomery County, Mr. Reber. Mr. REBER. The gentleman thanks the Chair. Mr. Speaker, the argument that we offered for the earlier Vitali amendment certainly is applicable to this amendment. would simply say, though, that you only have to look at the face of the Vitali amendment to see that there are serious concerns with the manner in which it is drafted. The word, for instance, blanket and naked in the amendment as it exists, "Lodges," very well could impact upon existing leased cabins that are currently in the Commonwealth. The words "large-scale facilities for overnight accommodations" again could very well in its broad, naked, undefined terminology cause problems with existing facilities that have been going on for time immemorial in the Commonwealth under the current programs. That is the reason why we cannot, in the vacuum of this particular drawn amendment by member of 203, make a decision as to what we are going to do. 1 think the members of the two committees under HR 137 will certainly take into consideration all of the concerns of those members that voted with Representative Vitali and against Representative Vitali on the previous amendment, and would hope that they would vote again against Representative Vitali on this amendment. And can assure you, can assure you that 1 will save the Vitali amendments we have here today to incorporate them into the record for purposes of consideration when we deliberate on HR 137. would ask for a defeat of the Vitali amendment Thank you, Mr. Speaker. LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE The SPEAKER pro tempore. For the second time, the Chair recognizes Representative Vitali. Mr. VTAL. 1, too, share Chairman Reber's concerns about existing development. 1, along with many of you, have enjoyed cabins and other concessions and so forth. However, on page 2, lines 27 through 29, that concern is addressed. This amendment does not apply to any current uses. So any hunting cabins, any rustic cabins, any modem cabins, anything that is currently up is not covered by this act. 1 disagree with the speaker or my chairman with regard to the fact that the same arguments apply. This is a very different amendment, and 1 think this amendment gives us safeguards in the interim. This amendment gives us the protection that while we are studying the situation, that while we are looking into what should be done with regard to State parks and forests, that we do not have that rustic lodge in Cook Forest to endanger ancient forests, that we do not have the golf course in Prince Gallitzin or we do not have some other use pushed through by some developer against the wishes of our people. This allows for reasonable development, but it puts safeguards in - public hearings, public referendum, economic impact statements, and finally, most of all, our approval. So all this amendment does is buy us some time and keep us protected while we do these studies. This is totally consistent with the studies that are underway. would ask that partisanship be set aside; the amendment be viewed on its merits. Vote for public hearings; vote for referendum; vote for what your constituents want. urge a "yes" vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The following roll call was recorded: Banisto Bebko-Jones Helardi Belfanti Bishop Blaum Boscola Boyer Butkovitr Huxton Caltagirone Cappabianca Cam Cawley Cahen, M. Colafella Colaiun Corpora Cowell COY CUT Dermody Donatucci Evans Fajt Feese George Gordncr Gruitra Horsey James Jarolin Josephs Kaiser Keller Kenney Kirkland Krebr Kukovich LaGrona Laughlin Ledrrcr LevdansQ Lloyd Lucyk Manderino Markosek Mayemik McCall McGeehan Mundy Nyce Oliver Pesci Petrarca Pistella Ramos Richardson Riegsr Robens Roebuck Rmney Rudy Sainato Santoni Scrimenti Shaner Smith. B. Steelman Stish Sturla Suna Tangreni Thomas Tigue Trelio Trich vwn Vitali Washington Williams Yewcic Youngblood Adolph Fargo Major Semmel Allen Farmer Marrico Serafini Argall Fichtsr Masland Sheehan Armstrong Fleagle McGill Smith, S. H. Baker Flick Mrlio Snyder. D. W Bard Gamble Merry Staback

16 1294 LEGSLATVE J( Barley Gannan Michlovic Stain Bimelin Geist Miller Steil Brown Giglioni Nailor Stem Browne Gladeck Nickol Stetler Bunt Godshall O'Brien Strinmaner Carone GNPP~ Pervl Taylor, E. Z. Chadwick Habay Petrane Taylor,. Civera Haluska Penit Travaglio Clark Hanna Phillips True Clymer Harhart Piccola Tulli Cohen, L.. Hasay Pitts Vance Conti Hennmsey Plans Van Home Cornell Herman Preston Walko Corrigan Hershey Raymond Waugh Dab DeLuca Hess Hutchinson Readshaw Reber Wogan Wamiak Dempsey lkin Reinard Wright, D. R. Dmt ladlowiec Rohrer Wright. M. N. DeWeese King Rubley Zimmerman DiGiralama Lawless Sather zug D~ce Leh Saylor Durham Lynch Schroder Ryan, Egalf Maitland Schuler Speaker Fairchild URNAL - HOUSE JUNE 7 There is a laundry list of things, duties, that we have transferred to the Department of Health. Among those duties the George amendment transferred, and am refening to page 67, lines 23, 24, and 25, it transfers to the Department of Health - listen to this - the control of water pollution. Let me repeat that: t w transfers to the Department of Health the control of water pollution. t also transfers to the Department of Health the issuance of waterworks permits. t also transfers to the Department of Health sanitary affairs of this Commonwealth. These are clearly duties, clearly duties that the Department of Environmental Resources has historically managed. t has never been on the table as something r~ppropriate to be dealt with by the Department of Health. The Department of Health does not have the technical people - it is a tiny agency - it does not have the w technical people to deal with water pollution, the control of water pollution. This amendment, this language, slipped in in the George amendment in committee. t does not have the approval of the department. t should not be here. We should not vote on a hill that is flawed in this way. We have the opportunity to correct it. NOT VOTNG-2 n my view, there is only one reason to vote against this amendment, and that is pure partisan politics, because if we do not Miconie Robinson do it now, it is going to be taken out over in the Senate. So we can do it now or vote on a defective bill. That is the choice. t is pure- Anyone who votes against this, in my view, well, let me not sweep quite so broadly; there may be legitimate reasons am not aware Leswvitz Mihalich Olasr of, and apologize to those who would vote for it. But 1 only see partisan reasons to vote against this amendment. f you want to go on record and you want to give people who Less than the majority having voted in the affirmative, the question was determined in the negative and the amendment was not agreed to. analyze your record the ability to say that they do not feel that the Department of Environmental Resources should control water pollution but the tiny Department of Health should do it, if you want to go on record and give people the ability to make that Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration as amended? statement against you whenever they are inclined to do it, then vote "no," but if you feel that the department should maintain its historical duty of controlling water pollution, then urge a "yes" vote. Thank you very much. Mr. VTAL offered the following amendment No. A3082: GUESTS NTRODUCED oeriod after "HOUSES" The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair wishes to welcome. Amend Sec. 505, page 67, lines 23 through 25, by striking out and recognize the third grade from the Primos School in ", TO MANAGEMENT OF THE SANTARY AFFARS OF THS" in upper Darby Township in Delaware County. They are the guests line 23 and all of lines 24 and 25 of Representative Nick Micorzie, and they are located in the On the question, balcony. Young people, welcome. CONSDERATON OF HB 1400 CONTNUED 'rrr The SPEAKER pro tempore. On that question, the Chair recognizes Mr. Vitali. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This amendment deals with a problem recognized by the administration and something that we should deal with now because it is the responsible thing to do. f we do not, am informed that it will be dealt with in the Senate, hut we should do it now. What this amendment does, this amendment- Well, let me back up. The bill on its face in section 505 transfers certain powers the Department of Health' We picked this amendment this is the Georee - amendment that we picked up earlier this week in the Environmental Committee. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Clearfield County, Representative Bud George. Mr. GEORGE. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, Mr. Speaker, would like to thank the gentleman, Mr. Vitali, for his cautious name in his opinion of what had happened in regard to the George amendment. 1 only wish his presumption was as kind, in fact, as his opinion in that the department is not against this amendment. Whether the gentleman knows it or not, 1 am not really concerned of what the department wants, but 1 do know the history of this matter, and whenever DER was put into existence, all of these duties were brought from the -

17 -~ Department of Health and put into the Department of Environmental Resources. Over the years it has been said that the reason that DER has not performed admirably, by those that are kind to the department, they were very specific in that it was always they did not have enough people; they did not have enough money. The truth of the matter is that Mr. Vitali can create his own opinion. The legislative unit that drafted the amendment feels differently than my fiend does, and want him to know that sewerage is not the only matter that this concerns. We are not only after a user-fiendly department - and that is the reason HB 1400 is before us -we are also after consistency, consistency so that the department, whoever it is, does the same thing over and over and treats all alike. The consistency is there with this amendment that we had put in in committee. We do not need Mr. Vitali's amendment. But let me assure you that all of us can be wrong from time to time; that is why there will continue to he a legislature that can in fact make right something that is wrong. At this moment, there is not anything wrong. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes Representative Reber fiom Montgomery County. Mr. REBER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, concur in the remarks, especially the remarks of the minority chairman, Representative George, relative to the background history of these particular aspects of the sanitary affairs issues relative to resoonsihilities once had hv the Department of Health and recently under the charge of the Department of Environmental Resources. think, though, what we are talking about is the opportunity tc have a dual jurisdiction. There is no way that the enforcement and the administration of the Clean Streams Act and the ancillary statutes and regulations flowing therefrom will in any way be degraded by the additional oversight that will be afforded by the Department of Health also giving a sanitary review of these particular sanitary issues. think certainly the rules and regulations that will flow, and believe me, there will be a significant amount of those rules and regulations flowing when in fact the new department is created and the new bureaucracies begin to develop in conjunction with each other. Any questions that might exist in the mind of the maker of the amendment, as minute as they may he in relationship to this amendment's necessity or lack thereof, am sure will he addressed by the department. And might say also for the benefit of the membership that the minority chairman as well as the majority chairman did have dialogue with the department in the drafting of all of these amendments, and am sure that any fine-tuning will be taken care of both in the regulatory process and otherwise. would ask for a defeat of the Vitali amendment. Thank you. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes, for the second time, Representative Vitali. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. will be very brief. n all due respect to the abilities of the Legislative Reference Bureau or whoever else drafted this and in all due respect to the opinions of Chairman Reher and Chairman George, think we as legislators have a duty in voting on legislation, and the duty is this: We must read the words. Let me repeat that: We must read the words, and this is what the words say, because when the lawyers deal with this in the trenches, they read the words, and that is what LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE judges go by. What this says is, in section 505, that the following powers are transferred to the Department of Health and Human Services, and quote, "...THE CONTROL OF WATER POLLUTON." t is just an era, a little loose on the history of it, hut at one time this language apparently was ripped off from the Administrative Code verbatim, but it is my understanding that years hack this was accurate hut it is no longer accurate. n any case, the issue is, do we want to transfer to the Department of Health the control of water pollution? Clearly we do not. We could vote on a defective statute now and take the consequences or we can let the Senate correct it, but it is my information this will be corrected. urge the members to do what is best for themselves, which is, do not vote for something ridiculous. Thank you. The following roll call was recorded: Bard Donatucci Lucyk Roebuck Bebko-Jones Evans Manderino Rubley Belardi Fairchild Markosek Rudy Belfanti Fq t Mayemik Sainato Bishop Gardner McCeehan Santoni Boscola Gruitza Melio Scrimenti Butkovitr Bunton Caltagirone Cappabianca Cam Carone Cawley Cohen, M. Corpora COY Cuny Daley Dermady DeWeese Adolph Allen Argall Armstrong Baker Barley Banisto Birmelin Blaum Boyes Brown Browne Bunt Chadwick Civera Clark Clymer Cohen, L.. Colafeila Colaim Conti Cornell Conigan Cowell Horsey James Jarolin Josephs Kaiscr Keller Kirkland Krebs Kukovich LaGrooa Lederer Levdansky Lloyd Farmer Feese Fichter Fleagle Flick Gamble Gannon Geist George Giglioni Gladeck Godshall Gruppo Habay Halurka Hanna tlarhm Hasay Hennessey Herman Herrhey Hrss Hutchinson ltkin Michlovic Oliver Pesci Petrarca Petrone Pistella Preston Ramos Readshaw Richardson Rirger Robens Robinson Maitland Major Marrico Masland McCall McGill Merry Micouie Miller Mundy Nailor Nickol Nyce O'Brien Perzel Penit Phillips Piccola Pins Plans Raymond Reber Reinard Rohrer Shaner Steelman Sturla Tangetti Thomas Tigue Trich Veon Vitali Washington Williams Yewcic Youngblood Sheehan Smith, B. Smith, S. H. Snyder, D. W. Stahack Stairs Steil Stern Stetler Stish Strinmatler Surra Taylor, E. 2. Taylor. J. Travaglio Trello True Tulli Vance Van Horne Walko Waugh wogan Womiak

18 1296 LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE JUNE 7 DeLuca Dempsey Dent DiGirolamo Druce Durham Egolf Fxgo Lescovitz ladlawiec Rmney Wright, D. R. Kenney Sather Wright, M. N King Saylor Zimmerman Laughtin Schroder zug Lawless Schuler Leh Semmel Ryan, Lynch Serafini Spea*er NOT VOTNG4 Less than the majority having voted in the affirmative, the question was determined in the negative and the amendment was not agreed to. Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration as amended? Mr. VTAL1 offered the following amendment No. A3061: Amend Sec. 319, page 57, line 4, by after "forest" where it appears the second time ecosystem Amend Sec. 319, page 57, line 6, by striking out "and" and insetting a comma Amend Sec. 319, page 57, line 6, by after "herbicides" and restoring the mix of flora and fauna present prior to the timber cut On the question, The SPEAKER pro tempore. On that question, the Chair recognizes Representative Vitali. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is not the issue of the century, but it is an adjustment that needs to be made to HB HB 1400 creates a new account. t is called the Forest Regeneration Restricted Revenue Account, and it is funded with 10 percent of receipts of forestry stumpage sales. Now, the purpose of this account is to regenerate forests. Obviously there is a good policy reason why, when we take trees out of a forest, we want to restore that forest to the condition that it was. The language of this amendment deals with forest regeneration and describes certain things the funds can he used for: planting trees, treating forests with herbicides, erecting deer fences, and so forth - all things helpful to regenerating the trees in the forest. This amendment simply adds a shade to that by introducing the concept that in regenerating the forest, it is not just the trees themselves but plants and animals and so forth - the whole forest. nstead of the word "forest," it adds forest "ecosystem," and for Mr. Lynch's benefit, that includes the interrelationship between plants and animals and microbes and water and air and all the things that make up that forest that we hike in and that we bunt in and that we use as a storehouse for biodiversity. What the ecosystem is - and largely this is the determination of the Department of Environmental Resources, who am swe will make good judgments in this regard - what this amendment does is simply allow some of this money, if the department deems it appropriate, to deal with replenishing the whole forest so it goes back to the way it was. Now, if the forest is going to go back to the way it was on its W own, which it is inclined to do, the department does not have to make any expenditures here, just as they do not have to make expenditures on deer fences or planting trees or anything else enumerated. These are all discretionary powers. t is simply a recognition that forests are not just tree fms, but they arc used for water quality protection and recreation and environmental education, and when you cut it, if you have damaged some of those characteristics, all we are saying is the department, if it chooses to do so, can look at the bigger picture and deal with some plants and W so forth. Again, it is not the amendment of the century. Arguably, the department may be able to do this in any event, depending on how broadly they read it. But think it is a necessary clarification, and it is my hope we can all agree that in the nineties we need to look at the forests in terms of the complete ecosystem. t is the.' responsible thing to do, and hope my colleagues, Mr. Lynch and others, will join me in supporting this amendment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the chairman of the timber caucus, the gentleman from Wmen County, Mr. Lynch. Mr. LYNCH. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. appreciate that. will speak very briefly on this amendment; this, as Mr. Vitali says, seemingly innocuous amendment. will tell you that this could be the most dangerous amendment that he offers in this bunch. This term "ecosvstem" is in the eves of the beholder. The term "ecosystem" could he a square yard of turf in your front yard; it could be the tree that is being cut down; it could be the mountain on which that tree resides: it could he the watershed where that mountain exists. We do not know who is going to define that, and it is just a very dangerous word to put in there. We defeated this amendment easily in committee, by the way. The second point about "restoring the mix of tlora and fauna present prior to the timber cut," again, who is going to determine - that? You know, we are talking about the possibility of rcstoring poison ivy, poison sumac plants, mean, that nobody really cares about. The fact is, the forest regenerates itself, and it can do so quite well without man trying to stick their hand into it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes Representative Reber. Mr. REBER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. W Just one remark 1 would like to make. From my perspective, reading the language on page 57 of the bill, it specifically allows under the current statutory scheme of the use of this restricted revenue account "...to expend on forest regeneration activities, including, but not limited to,..." and then the language goes on to speak about very specific items that the funding can be used for. But think the language is very important that 1 just read, "...to expend on forest regeneration activities, including, but not limited to..." "ncluding" means each and every thing that the speaker is 1 already virtually talking about that makes common sense. think the language of the Vitali amendment is surplusage, is not needed, and would lend ambiguity to the act, and in effect, the act already

19 allows, the law already allows, in my opinion, that which the gentleman is trying to enact through his particular amendment. Accordingly, to avoid an ambiguity placed into this statute, would ask for a rejection of the Vitali amendment. Thank you. The SPEAKER pro tempore. For the second time, the Chair recognizes Representative Vitali. Mr. VTAL. Mr. Speaker, would the chairman of the Environmental Committee stand for a brief interrogation? The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman indicates he is willing to stand for interrogation. You may proceed. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To be clear, Mr. Speaker, do you object to these funds being used for forest ecosystem regeneration? The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair would ask the gentleman, Mr. Vitali, to repeat that question. Mr. Reher was unable to hear you. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The question is, Mr. Speaker, do you object to these funds being used for ecosystem regeneration? Mr. REBER. Mr. Speaker, 1 object to ambiguity in language without definition. The ambiguity exists in your pzrticular amendment without a specific definition of what, quote, "flora" encompasses. Flora could he poison ivy; it could he poison sumac; it could he poison oak. have no desire for someone to come up with a hybrid argument to regenerate those particular noxious weeds, as far as am concerned. think the language that exists in the statute gives sufficient discretion to the administrators of the program, and find ambiguity in the language in which your amendment is drafted. said it once, say it again: Defeat the Vitali amendment. Mr. VTAL. thank the speaker for that answer, and would like to ask the question again, and that question is, does the speaker object to these funds being used for ecosystem restoration? Mr. REBER. Mr. Speaker, "ecosystem" is equally concerning to this speaker, because it, likewise, is undefined in the amendment, and do not believe that it is defined in the act. So accordingly, there could very well he ambiguity that could jeopardize the fiscal integrity of the fund to which you are attempting to attach this amendment. Accordingly, would ask for a rejection of the Vitali amendment. Mr. VTAL. Does the speaker object to these funds heing used for the preservation of flora? Mr. REBER. Mr. Speaker, think have already answered that question, and the record will so reflect. stand on the prior response. Mr. VTAL. apologize., as the chairman did initially, when made my initial point, simply did not hear that answer. So if the chairman would he so good as to indulge me, the question is, does the chairman object to the use of these funds heing used to restoring the mix of flora present in the forests? Mr. REBER. My concern was, relative to that and in response to that question, that the definition of what flora may encompass in the course of timber cutting and the destruction thereof and the ultimate necessity for regeneration, that find ambib~ity in what flora could encompass, and that is why used the example of the poison-ivy-type scenario. So without that particular definitive drawing of defined specificity in what flora and fauna is to encompass, think would prefer to allow the program to continue as it has success%lly operated in the past and allow it to continue LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE to successfully operate in the future with that necessary discretion heing used by the administrators of this particular restricted fund. Mr. VTAL. Does the speaker find the word "trees" any less ambiguous than "flora"? i Mr. REBER. f in fact there was a definition that encompassed the word "trees," obviously this speaker has no problem with that. : But again, the ambiguity in the manner in which the amendment is drafted still lends itself towards that. Mr. VTAL. Thank you. ; That concludes my internogation, and 1 would like to continue my comments on the amendment. 1 The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman is in order and would also add the observation that it is the Chair's understanding that the definition of "flora" includes all vegetative life and "fauna" refers to animal life, for the benefit of the members. The gentleman may proceed. Mr. VTAL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With regard to the chairman's comments, think you have to judge yourself whether that is a good-faith attempt to deal with the issue or simply a justification for a "no" vote. would like to answer a question raised by Representative Lynch, which is, who is going to decide what we spend this on; who is going to decide whether we plant poison ivy? The answer, quite simply, is the department. As they decide the thousands of other discretionary items and words subject to interpretation in this statute, the department has the discretion to use these funds or not use them, as they see fit. f this was the most dangerous thing 1 have done as a legislator, would quit today. would ask that you simply take a commonsense reading of this statute. All we are doing is expanding the concepts here, clarifying some language, simply saying that when we regenerate a forest, we are recognizing that a forest includes more than the trees, and if there are any problems in those regards, the Forestry Bureau has the option to correct them. ask for an affirmative vote. Thank you. On the question retuning, The following roll call was recorded: Bebko-loner Bishop Boscola Butkovitr Caltagirane Car" Cohen, M. Colafclla Colaiuo Corpora C"i\~ll Coy Curry Dalcy Dermody Dewme Donatucci Honey lames losephs Kairer Krllcr Kirkland LaCrona 1.aughin 1.ederer.evriansky Lucl k Manderino Markosek Mayernik McCall McCeehan Melin Michlovic Oliver Petrarca Pctrone Piatella Richardson Rieger Roberts Robinson Roebuck Sainato Santani Shaner Strrlman Tangreni Thomas Veon Vitali Washington Youngblood

20 Adolph Allen Argall Armstrong Baker Bard Barley Banisto Belardi Belfanti Birmelin Blaum Bayes Brown Browne Bunt Bunton Cappabianca Carone Cawley Chadwick Civera Clark Clymer Cohen, L.. Conti Cornell Corrigan DeLuca Dempscy Dent DiGirolamo Dmce Durham Egolf Evans Fairchild NAYS-146 EXCUSES3 Lercoviiz Mihalieh Olasr LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE JUNE 7 Fajt Lynch Serafini Fargo Maitland Sheehan Farmer Major Smith, B. Feese Marsicc Smith, S. H. Fichter Masland Snyder, D. W. Fleagle McGill Staback Flick Merry Stairs Gamble Micouie Steil Cannon Miller Stern Geist Mundy Stetler George Nailor Stish Giglioni Nickol Seittmaner Gladeck Nyce Sturla Gadshall O'Brien Suma Gordner Perzel Taylor, E. Z. Gruitza Pesci Taylor, J. GNPPO Penit Tigue Habay Haluslta Phillips Piccola Travaglia Trello Hanna Pins Trich Harhan Plans True Hasay Preston Tulli Hennessey Ramos Vance Herman Raymond Van Home Henhey Readshaw Walko Hess Reber Waugh Hutchinsan Reinard Williams ltlr'in Rohrer Wogan Jadlowiec Rwney Womiak Jarolin Rubley Wright, D. R. Kemey Rudy Wright, M. N. King Sather Yeucic Krebs Saylar Zimmerman Kukovich Schroder Lug Lawless Schuler Leh Scrimenti Ryan, Lloyd Semmel Speaker NOT VOTNG4 Less than the majority having voted in the affirmative, the question was determined in the negative and the amendment was not agreed to. Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration as amended? Mr. MARKOSEK offered the following amendment No. A3105: Amend Title, page 1, line 8, by after "Protection;" creating the Small Business Advisory Committee; Amend Table of Contents, page 2, lines 19 through 24, by striking out all of said lines and inserling - Section 317. Small Business Advisory Committee. Section -~~ ~~~~ 318. Ex ofticio membershios of secretatv. Section 319. Contracts and agreements. Section 320. Transfer of funds. Section 321. Renumbering regulations. Section 322. Transfer provisions. Section 323. Civil service status. Amend Bill, page 55, by between lines 6 and 7 Section 317. Small Business Advisory Committee. (a) Creation.-n addition to the ad hoc advisory committees authorized under section 316, the Small Business Advisory Committee shall be created in order to assist the department with developing policies w and regulations that might affect small businesses in this Commonwealth. This committee shall also provide advice to the department relating to the nature of small business practices and problems in this Commonwealth and provide a review of existing policies and regulations which are relevant to small business. (b) Representative membership.-this committee shall consist of 13 members. Members shall have a background in small business practices and problems. They shall represent present owners and operators of small businesses in this Commonwealth, members of the academic community who have expertise regarding small business practices and ' problems, and professionals who specialize in representing businesses with 25 or fewer employees. (c) Appointments.-Five of the committee members shall be appointed by the secretary. Two members shall be appointed by each of the following: () The President pro tempore of the Senate. (2) The Minority Leader of the Senate. (3) The Speaker of the House of Representatives. (4) The Minority Leader of the House of Representatives. (d) Tern.-Each member of this committee shall serve for two years. (e) Organization.- (1) The committee shall elect a chairperson b), majority vote. (2) The committee may adopt bylaws or procedural guidelines it deems necessaty to accomplish its purposes. (3) Recommendations, positions and other actions of the committee shall require approval by a majority of its members. (0 Administrative assistance.-the department shall provide appropriate administrative and technical support needed by the committee in order to accomplish its purposes. The department shall publish notices of meeting dates, times, locations, and a list of topics to be discussed no less than 14 davs before the meeting. - in accordance with the notice requirements set forth in the act of July 3, 1986 (P.L.388, No.84). known as the Sunshine Act. (g) Mailing list.-the department shall maintain a mailing list of persons who have requested specific notification of meetings and activities of the committee. The department shall name a contact person to attend comminee meetings and serve as the public's liaison to seek and obtain information relating to the committee's work. (h) Access to documents.-the comlnittee shall have access to all departmental policies, procedures and dratis of proposed regulations, final regulations and policy papers which it deems necessary to canying out its purpose. (i) Expenses.-Members of the cornminee shall be reimbursed for their travel. room and board expenses incurred when attending committee meetings. w ti) Regulatory review.-not less than 120 days before beginning to develop regulations which might impact small businesses of this Commonwealth, the department shall notify the committee and provide it with the opportunity to review the proposal and provide the department with advice. (k) Conference-Upon the committee's request, representatives of the department shall meet with the committee to confer on regulato~? proposals which might impact small businesses of this Commonwealth. () Written comments.-written comments regarding the committee's position on the proposed regulations shall be published in the 1 Pennsylvania Bulletin. These comments shall contain an impact statement and any other information the committee deems important for the public to make an informed opinion on the proposals. (m) Exceptions.-While the department shall be required to advise the committee as soon as possible of their promulgation, the requirements

21 LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE of subsections (i) and (k) shall not apply to the promulgation of the The remarks of Representative Markosek are, in part, following regulations relating to small business: absolutely correct, and think absolutely a concern that is (1) ~e~ulations with mandatory statutory deadlines. something that is the foremost in the minds of all the members of (2) Regulations reouired bv court order to be ado~ted. the General Assembly, but think those concems relate to (3) Regulations' necesiitated by a ~ederal' or State yesterday's DER's. think they are concems that are actively being declaration of emergency. addressed by today's DER and the soon-to-he-created Department (4) Final regulations adopted under section 204 of the act of July 31, 1968 (P.L.769, No.240), referred to as the of Environmental Protection as well as the Department of Commonwealth Documents Law. Conservation and Natural Resources. (5) nterim regulations which are so authorized by statute. For the information of the members - and think Amend Sec. 317, page 55, line 7, by striking out "317" and Representative Markosek can be one that can be on the cutting 318 edge, if you will, of being involved in this initiative - Amend Sec. 318, page 55, line 15, by striking out "318" and Governor Ridge, along with Secretary Seif, the Secretaq of DER, has already made some preliminary pronouncements. t is my 319 information that in July, next month, there will he specific, specific Amend Sec page 56, line 2, by striking out "319" and initiatives put forward in part encompassing the entire area being 320 Amend Sec. 320, page 57, line 11, by striking out "320" and covered by Representative Markosek and furthermore will even go further to aid and assist in the establishment of an office of 77 1 pollution prevention and compliance assistance. think what we se jh. llnc ;, h! s,ri~lng \\ill see tiom the Cio\.emor, as he hic; already in pan suggested and torcnlr)): -\rill be prortcnng lbr uur con~~dcrat~on, 1s a \\orking partnership 322 Amend Sec. 322, page 59, line 19, by striking out "322" and 323 On the question, The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes Mr. Markosek. Mr. MARKOSEK. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this amendment creates a small business advisory committee within the Department of Environmental Protection. As we know, our small businesses have had some problems with DER, at least in my district, over the years. Probably the most common complaint get is from small business people, whether they he developers or property owners or whatever. These are the people who are really employing folks in our districts today, and over and over again, we just hear one complaint after another. This amendment will incorporate the small business advisory committee that will not have veto power over any regulations, but there will be a requirement that this committee, made up of small business people - and by the way, this is sanctioned by the NFB (National Federation of ndependent Business); they are in favor of this amendment - this committee will have the ability to look over regulations and make any recommendations to the EQB (Environmental Quality Board) as to what type of impact they would have on small business. think most of us in here support small business, and keep in mind also that this would put into the law this small business committee. know there are some small business committees already out there, but we do not want to worry about the whim of any Governor, as we saw some previous Governors were not all that friendly to small husiness, so as a result, think this is a good amendment in that it codifies the small business committee into the new department, and urge the members' support. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes Representative Reber. Mr. REBER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. with individuals: employers in the small, medium,-and large business communities. What we want to move to is a hands-on assistance to the regulated community, including employers, municipalities, educational institutions, nonprofits, and every other particular type of individual concern to basically help with environmental protection, permitting requirements, and advising that small business in how to move forward. We have to make the regulated community aware of its commitments and obligations. We also have to review proposed environmental regulations with them, and most importantly - and this is consistent with what Representative Markosek is attempting to impart - extract a peer-assistance-type program, advisory in nature. All of these are integrated, if you will, into what the administration is planning on doing in phase 3, if you will, of the environmental initiatives that we have been dealing with. As the House is very much aware, we have already completed and it has been signed into law the industrial sites remediation SB 1 package. 1 am hopeful that HB 1400 will in fact find its way to the Governor's desk before the end of the month as phase 2 completes itself, and think part of what Representative Markosek is attempting to talk about today is something that can be embodied in greater detail, in greater depth, when the administration comes forward with its full initiative. For that reason and only that reason, would respectfully ask Representative Markosek to withdraw the amendment. f not, certainly would ask us to simply defeat the amendment for the purpose of putting it on the back burner for its inclusion in a very comprehensive package that will soon he coming before the General Assembly vis-a-vis gubernatorial pronouncement. Thank you very much. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Columbia County, Mr. Gordner. Mr. GORDNER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. rise in support of the Markosek amendment. On page 54 of the bill, under section 316, it talks about advisory committees, and it does say that the department is authorized to create certain advisory committees. What we are doing with the Markosek amendment is saying that this is one area and this is one committee that we want to definitely make sure is included in this new department.

22 1300 LEGSLATVE JC URNAL - HOUSE JUNE 7 The Markosek amendment provides for the small business advisory committee. Some of us that are involved with agricultural issues are aware of the agricultural advisory committee that was passed within the last 2 years as part of DER. We are also aware of the success of that committee in allowing people from the agricultural community to comment on regulations before they become final regulations. That is all this small business advisory committee will he doing, but yet it is an important part for small business. t would enable them in order to have a firsthand comment period on regulations before they become enacted. 1 am sure all of us!?om our districts have heard from small businesses and their complaints about DER, and this is an opportunity to help and assist them. Again, the NFB is supportive of this amendment. Why should the legislature leave it up to this administration or any administration under their whim to do somethine - when we can do it and provide for it statutorily? So for those variety of reasons, would ask all of us to support the Markosek amendment, support small business and provide them with the oppomity to have comment time in this department. Thank you. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes for the second time Representative Markosek. Mr. MARKOSEK. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Two quick points before we vote on this. One is that Representative Reber mentioned that the Governor is planning to have a similar program put into the DER or the new environmental protection agency, and guess my comment to that is that great minds really do think alike. Since he and have essentially the same idea, guess am saving him a little bit of work, and if we do this here today, we can all get credit for doing this, not that we do not want to share some with him once in a while when he has a good idea, but why not us get some credit for it. As far as withdrawing this amendment, Mr. Speaker, understand what the is trying to do, and 1 have been here long enough to know how the system works. also know that there are other functions that folks perhaps have to go to today, but would just say to the members, especially those who have been here for a while, how often we have sat here on this floor late into the night and discussed amendments that would describe as perhaps less than meaningful, and have not been one of the abusers of that. think the members that have known me over the years know that basically get up here and speak or offer an amendment when have something important to say or an issue that is important in my opinion, so 1 do not think have been one of the abusers of the amendment process. We have sat here and voted up or down, and you may do so again here - it is up to the members, of course - but many tunes we have had to make votes on amendments that perhaps were less than enlightening. So why not at least consider an amendment that for once is a very good amendment and certa~nly is one that is worthwhile and even in fact agrees with the Governor's proposals. would ask the members to vote "yes" to my amendment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The following roll call was recorded: Banisto DeWeese McCall Santoni BebkrrJanes Donatucci McGeehan Scrimenli Belfanti Evans Melio Shaner Blaum Fajt men^ Staback Boscola Gamble Mundy Steelmarl Brownr Gordner Olirer Ste1lz1. Butkovitz Habay Pesci Sturla Bunton Haluska Petrarca Surrs Caltagirone ltkin Prtronc Tangretli Cappabianca Josephs Penit Thomas Car" Kaiszr Pibtclla Tieue Cohen, M. Keller Preston lravagliu Colafella.aGrana <an,os 'lrc110 Colaiuo 1.aughlin Readshaw l'rich Corpara 1,ederer Rirger Van Hnrnc Cowell Levdansky Rokrts Veon Coy Lloyd Robinson Walko Cun) Daley DeLuca Dent Dermodv Lucyk Mandermo Markosek Maycrnik Rocbuck Kooney Rudy Sainalo NAYS- 08 Williams Wrighl. D. R. Yeucic Youngblood Adolph Allen Argall Armstrong Baker Bard Barley Birmelin Boyes Broun Feese Fichter Fleagle Flick Cannon Geist George Giglioni Gladeck Gndshall t.)nch Maitland Major Marsico Masland McGill Michlovic Micozrie Miller Nailor Schuler Semmel Srrafini Sheehan Smith, B. Smith, S. H. Snyder, D. W. Stairs Sleil Stern Bunt Gruppo Nickol Slish '=One Hma ~ycc raylor. E. z Chaduick Harhart O'Brien Taylor, J. Civera Hasay Perrel True c~,k Hennesrev Phillios l'ulli Clymer Cohen. L.. Conti Cornell Corrigan Dempsey DiGirolamo Druce lurham Egolf Fairchild Fargo Farmer Herman Hershey Hcss Hurchinron Jadlowiec James Kenney King Kirkland Krebs Kukovich Lawless Leh NOT VOTNG-7 Piccola Vancs 'itts Vilali Plaits Washington Raymond Waugh Reber Wogan Reinard Womiak Richardson Wright, M. N. Rohner Zimmcrnlml Rubley Lug Sather Saylor Ryan. Schroder Speaker Beiardi Cawlcy Horsey Striltmatter Bishop Gruitm Jarolin EXCUSED-3 Lescovitz Mihalich Olasr 1 w D * W Less than the majority having voted in the affirmative, the w: question was determined in the negative and the amendment was not agreed to.

23 On the question recuning, Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration as amended? Mr. LLOYD offered the following amendment No. A3056: LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE Amend Table of Contents, page 3, lines 3 through 8, by striking out Lackawanna, Lancaster, Montgomery, Northampton, Somerset, all of said lines and Westmoreland, and York. There would be 55 counties left. t Section 504. Limitations on authority. should be noted that of those 55, 32 of them have no solid waste Section 505. Energy programs. disposal facility at all, that many of us have been shouldering the Section 506. Department of Health and Human Services. Section 507. Department of Agriculture. responsibility for taking care of everybody's waste, and it seems to Section 508. Transfer of funds. me that that responsibility should be spread to some other folks Section 509. Regulations. when we deal with the controversial aspect of the siting of the Section 510. Transfer of personnel. low-level radioactive waste facility. Amend Bill, page 66, by between lines 21 and 22 Now, some people will undoubtedly say that this is Section 504. Limitations on authority. NMBY-ism (not in my backyard) and that we ought to site these (a) ssuance of em its; low-level radioactive waste disposal facilities strictly on the basis of science. Well, invite those facilities.-notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Department of peop]e's to the current exclusionluy criteria which are Environmental Protection shall not issue a permit for the establishment of used under today,s regulations. a low-level radioactive waste disposal facility in any county which has We could say that the safest site in the entire Commonwealth more than one permitted solid waste disposal facility. is in a State or county park, but under the exclusionary criteria, we (b) Definitions.-As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection: would not be able to put the site at that location. We could say that ~ ~ ~ ~ - waste l disposal ~ ~ facility," ~ The l term shall have the safest site in the entire State is next door to a building which is the meaning given to it under the act of ~~b~ 9, 1988 (P.L.~, NO.J~), on the National Register of Historic Places, but under the criteria known as the Low-Level Radioactive Waste Disposal Act. that we are using today, we could not locate it at that site. We "Municipal waste," "residual waste" or "hazardous waste." The could say that the safest site in the State is on farmland, and under terms shall have the meanings given to them under the act of July 7, 1980 the criteria which apply today, we could not legally put it in that (P.L.380, No.97). known ar the Solid Waste Management Act, and the act area if that farmland were in an ag security area, of ~uly 28, 1988 (p.l.556, No.lOl), known as the Municipal Waste NOW, support those exclusionary criteria. just think that Planning, Recycling and Waste Reduction Act. when we have a minority of counties shouldering all the grief and "Solid waste disposal facility." A landfill or an incinerator used or all the sacrifice and all the controversy which goes with solid waste capable of being used for the disposal of municipal, residual or hazardous waste or any combination thereof disposal, it is reasonable for those counties to say to some of the Amend Set. 504, page 66, line 22, by striking out -504" and rest of the folks in Pennsylvania that they ought to be the ones to host the site for the low-level radioactive waste disposal facility. 505 Mr. Speaker, urge adoption of the amendment. Amend Sec. 505, page 67, line 14, by striking out "505" and The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes Representative Reber. 506 Mr. REBER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amend Sec. 506, page 68, line 6, by striking out "506" and M. Speaker, for the benefit of all the members, all day today 507 we have been dealing with a number of amendments that are Amend Set. 507, page 68, line 13, by sb.iking out "507" and substantive in nature; that in some way, shape, or would have 508 changed substantive statutory language in the Commonwealth of Amend Set, 508, page 68, line 22, by striking out Gc508" and Pennsylvania. This particular amendment is a similar type of proposal. 509 Amend Sec. 509, page 68, line 29, by striking out "509" and 510 On the question, The SPEAKER pro tempore. On that question, the Chair recognizes Mr. Lloyd. Mr. LLOYD. Mr. Speaker, this is a very simple amendment that deals with a very controversial topic, and that is the siting of the low-level nuclear waste facility in Pennsylvania. What this amendment would do is to prohibit the Department of Environmental Protection from siting that low-level nuclear waste facility in any county which has more than one solid waste disposal facility. A solid waste disposal facility is defined as either a landfill or an incinerator. According to the statistics provided by the department, there are 12 counties in the State which would be excluded as a potential site of the low-level radioactive waste facility under my amendment: Allegheny, Berks, Bucks, Dauphin, Franklin, HB 1400 is 70 pages. n those 70 pages, we have basically attempted, both in the committee process as well as on the floor today with our action, to simply handle the bifurcation, the splitting, if you will, of the Department of Environmental Resources into two very workable environmental agencies. Additionally, we have attempted to similarly just transfer responsibilities of other aspects that heretofore have been carried out by DER to other standing agencies and departments in the Commonwealth. We have made vimally no substantive changes to the law of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. This particular amendment does in fact do that.

24 GERMANENESS QUESTONED Mr. REBER. Additionally, would submit to the members that this particular amendment is not germane. This particular amendment amends the Low-Level Radioactive Waste Disposal Act, Act No. 12 of Accordingly, would submit that the amendment presently before the House, the Lloyd amendment 3056, is not germane and ask for a vote of the full House on that aspect. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman, Mr. Reber, makes the motion that this amendment, the Lloyd amendment A3056, is not germane. On the question, Will the House sustain the germaneness of the amendment? The SPEAKER pro tempore. That is a question for the entire House to decide, and on that question, Representative Lloyd is recognized. M. LLOYD. Mr. Speaker, look at the amendment. Nowhere in this amendment does it mention that it is amending the Low-Level Radioactive Waste Facility Act. Now, you can argue germaneness, and that is a legitimate argument, but this is not an amendment which is out of order because it amends the wrong statute. This amendment is drafted to the "powers and duties" provision of HB Secondly, Mr. Speaker, invite yow attention to page 64 of the hill, starting at line 3, where the bill addresses the powers and duties, and the gentleman is correct that this legislation, generally, has maintained powers and duties and done some 'ansfers, but that language starting on line 3 says that the new Department of Environmental Protection shall continue to exercise the same powers and perform the same duties and functions by law vested in and imposed upon the DER. Now, you can disagree with my amendment on the merits, hut it is hard for me to understand, if we are going to be fair about it, it is hard for me to understand how a statute or a hill which proposes to maintain the same powers and duties, that an amendment that atkmpts to say, "well, we don't want the same powers and duties," is not germane to that bill. Now, we always like to avoid votes on these kinds of issues on the issue of germaneness, and members are going to have to decide for themselves whether they can go back to their counties and explain why, when they had a chance to vote to keep the low-level nuclear waste facility out of their county, they decided that it was nongermane to the hill. Members will have to decide that for themselves. submit that the amendment is germane, and would ask for a "yes" vote on the question of germaneness. The SPEAKER pro tempore. On the issue of germaneness, the Chair recognizes Representative Reber. Mr. REBER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Very quickly and briefly. On lines 21 through 24 of the amendment proffered by the gentleman, Mr. Lloyd, it specifically references the Low-Level Radioactive Waste Disposal Act, Act 12 of That is the act that govems the authority or the lack of authority for siting of a facility. That is the act when this particular debate was germane. That is the act that governs what has to he or does not have to be done relative to siting of a low-level radioactive waste disposal site in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE For that reason think on its face it references the act to which it should be amended, and accordingly, that act is not before us in HB 1400, and therefore, the gern%eness argument is valid. would ask that the amendment be found not to be germane. The SPEAKER pro tempore. For the second time on the w question of germaneness, the Chair recognizes Mr. Lloyd. Mr. LLOYD. n response to the gentleman's comment, on the same page 64 of the bill, starting at line 25, there was language inserted yesterday by the House Appropriations Committee dealing with the powers and duties of the State Conservation Commission. t seems to me that the argument could have been made that that was not germane to the bill because that was really changing things which should have been changed in the State Conservation w Commission law. f we are going to do it for the State Conservation Commission and that is acceptable, then it ought to be acceptable to vote up or down, yea or nay, on the merits of where we want to site the low-level nuclear waste facility, and we ought not duck that question on the issue of germaneness. Thank you_ Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro tempore. On the issue of germaneness, the Chair would advise the members that a "yes" vote means that you believe that the Lloyd amendment is germane and you are supporting Representative Lloyd's arguments; if you do not = support the germaneness, vote "no" and you will be supporting Representative Reber's arguments. Will the House sustain the germaneness of the amendment? The following roll call was recorded: Battisto Bebko-Jane Belardi Belfanti Bishop Blm Boscola Butkovitz Buxron Caltagirone Cappabianca Cam Carone Cawley Cohen, M. Colafella Colaiaa Corpara Corrigan Cowell COY curry Daley DeLuca Dermody DeWeese Donatucci Evans Fairchild Fajt Gamble Gardner Gruitza Haluska Honey James Jarolin Josephs Kaiser Keller Kirkland Krebs Kukovich Laughlin Lederer Levdansky Lloyd Lucyk Mandcrino McCall McGeehan Melio Mundy Oliver Pesci Petrarca Pistella Plans Preston Ramos Readshaw Richardson Rieger Robens Robinson Roebuck Rooney Rudy Santoni Scrimenti Serafini Adolph Feese Lynch Allen Fichter Maitland Argall Fleagle Major Annsfrong Flick Markosek Baker Gmon Marsico Bard Geiat Masland Shaner Smith, B. Staback Stairs Steelman Stetler Sturla Swra Tangetti Thomas Tigue Travaglio Trello Trich Van Horne Vwn Vitsli Walka Washington Williams Wright, D. R. Yewcic Yaungbload w

25 ~ ~ ~-~ 1995 Barley Birmelin Boyes Brown Browne Bunt Chadwick Civera Clark Clymer Cohen. L. Conti Camell Dempsey Dent DiGirolamo Drucc Durham Egolf Fargo Farmer Strinmaner Lescovitz George Giglioui Gladeck Godshall Gruppo Habay Hanna Harhan Hasay Hemesre) Herman Henhey Hess (utchinson ltkin Jadlowiec Kemey King LaGrona Lawless Leh Mihalich - ~- Mayemik McGill Merry Michlovic Micozie Miller Nailor Nickol Nyce O'Brien Perzel Petrone Penit Phillips Piccola Pins Raymond Reber Reinard Rohrer Rubley NOT VOTNG-1 Olasz LEGSLATVE JOURNAL - HOUSE - Sheehan Smith, S. H. Snyder, D. W. Steil Stem Stish Taylor, E. Z. Taylor, J. True Tulli Vance Waugh Wow Wozniak Wright, M. N. Zimmerman 2% Ryan, Speaker Energy Development Authority Act this morning, was unable to find any specific reference to the PEO, because at the time the Energy Development Authority was created, it was actually administratively housed in Commerce and was subsequently, guess by executive direction, transferred to the Energy Office. n the legislation which the Governor proposed as part of his budget, he wanted to put PEDA into DEP. n the bill which the House Appropriations Committee reported out and then was recommitted a couple weeks ago, the proposal was to put PEDA in the Department of commerce. rim this language, cannot determine where PEDA is. Mr. REBER. Let me respond to you this way, because obviously, it is an issue that have not had an opportunity to discuss with you at sidebar. The original entire section relative to the energy program was put in in the Environmental Committee because of many of the concerns that you are expressing. What might suggest, so we are not talking off the top of our heads, is that both you and deal with the chairmen on the Senate side to make sure that if clarification is necessary, that it be placed in on the Senate side so we take care of that concern. Mr. LLOYD. would accept that. would hope that we would put it in the Department of Commerce, as you folks had originally proposed, but whichever way it is going to be done, it does need to be clarified. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro iempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Delaware County, Mr. Vitali. M, VTAL. hank you, jqr. speaker. 1 p,mise to be very, very brief. Less than the majority having voted in the affirmative the question was determined in the negative and the amendment was declared not germane. 1 n my fonncr life as an attorney, 1 was engaged in some unsuccessf~~l negotiations where both sides just were not connecting with each other. was doing my thing, and the Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration as opposing counsel was doing the other, and the opposing counsel amended? said to me, negotiations should be like tennis, where there is give Bill as amended was agreed to. and take, back and forth. He said, what we are doing is playing golf; we are each hitting our own ball. What am saying to my The SPEAKER Pro This has ken considered On fellow environmental members, let us not play golf anymore. three different days and agreed to and is now on final passage. do not know how to count, but know people who do, and The question is, shall the bill pass finally? they tell me this bill is going big time, hut just want to express a few concerns about the bill. do not feel that it addresses the Representative Lloyd, do You wish debate On the final problems that we have been tallung about in my first years up passage? here. We have been talking about delays in the permitting process. Mr. LLOYD. would like to interrogate the sponsorofthe bill. We have been talking about different applications of the same law fie SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman, My Reber, -~ in the various regions throughout the State. We have been talking indicates that he is willing to stand for interrogat~on. The about the mogance and indifference of the of the gentleman, Mr. Lloyd, is in order and may proceed. Department of Environmental Resources. That is the problem as it Mr. LLOYD. Mr. On Page 67 of the bill, starting at appears to have been defined, and the reason am going to vote line 7, there is a transfer of authority that is currently vested in the "nom for this bill is, it really just does not address those problems, Pennsylvania Energy Office, and the reference is made here to 1 think it was the ~ ~ william ~ l ~ who ~ said, j that ~ the ~ statutes in which the Pennsylvania Energy Ofice is used. MY same people who were giving out pernits today and applying the question, Mr. Speaker, is, is this legislation transfening the laws today and had the problems today will be the same Pennsylvania Development Act the ~eople.. who are doing - the same thing. when we pass this bill. There Environmental Protection? Mr. REBER. Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the original office was established by Executive order, and accordingly, this is statutorily continuing and giving statutory authority for the continuation and creation of the same. That is my understanding as to the reason why they wanted that. Mr. LLOYD. Mr. Speaker, the Enera Office was ofiginall~ created by Executive order. fie Energy Development Authority was created by statute. n a quick perusal of the is just a real reshuffling. We are not really dealing with the problem, it concerns me that what this bill really is, is simply a political to cut the DER down to size. ~t plays very well with farming interests; it plays very well with commercial interests, but it really does not address the problems. youknow, perhaps like the RS (nternal Revenue Service), the Department of Environmental Resources is not a department that

26 1304 LEGSLATVE JC )URNAL- HOL'SE JUNE 7 -, is going to be universally liked and respected, because like the RS, it costs people money; it makes them spend money to comply. Perhaps think members of the General Assembly have to realize that instead of this being the answer, instead of HB 1400 being the answer, maybe the answer lies with us in the number of environmental laws we give the DER to enforce relative to the resources we give them to enforce it. t is my hope that after this bill passes, that we can continue to address the problems addressing the environmental community and let us stop playing golf and start playing tennis. Thank you. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman 6om Montgomery County, Mr. Reber. Mr. REBER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Very briefly on final passage. This is my 15th year in the hall of the House of Representatives, and know for many years Representative George, the distinguished former chairman of the Conservation Committee, predecessor to ow Environmental Resources Committee, took many hearings around the State. We took tremendous amount of testimony on many of these issues. Many times we had former Secretaries of DER testify before us. can remember like it was yesterday Dr. Maurice Goddard talking about us doing just what we are doing today. We had recent hearings where Dr. Goddard, former Secretary DeBenedictis, and others again suggested that we move in this direction. would like to very briefly say thank you to the chairman of the Environmental Committee, Chairman George, to each and every member of that committee on both sides of the aisle for their bipartisan spirit and assistance in crafting this piece of legislation, and most importantly, would like to thank each and every member of the House for giving us very prompt and deliberate attention today on a day when attention spans may very well be a little short. think this bipartisan effort goes a long way towards moving the environmental agenda fonvard in Pennsylvania. n conclusion, like the idea that we will now have two environmental advocates having the ear of the Governor at a Cabinet-level position. think that only enhances the stature of the environmental protection program; it only enhances the stature of the State parks and forests in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. thank each and every one of you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman, Mr. George. Mr. GEORGE. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, would be the first to rise and admit that this legislation does not handle the enforcement problems that we have been concemed about through the advisement of our constihlency. This will not in any way eliminate selectivity; in no way will it eliminate the overzealous reaction of a department who has been unkind. But for those who are environmentally inclined to protect and insist that the department was always willing to do its job but unfottunately could not do that job because we, those of us, you and, have passed legislation over the last 15 or 20 years and we have continued to add to the obligation and to the duties of the department, now we believe that it is in the best interest to take a department and divide it so again it does not continue to he so cumbersome, so hard to reach, and so difficult to be able to deal with. That is the reason we have placed HB 1400 before you for you perusal. For that that has not yet been satisfied in the coming months or years, it will be ow obligation to remediate. That is what this delegation is all about. That that went on before us and has been proven wrong, it is our obligation to make right, and so we ask you to support HB The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Elk County, Mr. Surra. Mr. SURRA. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. V Mr. Speaker, 1 will be very brief. We have all been very frustrated in the past in dealing with the Department of Environmental Resources, and people concemed about protecting the environment are frustrated with DER, and the regulating community is also frustrated with the department. So believe that everybody is interested in making DER do a better job, and that is why we are dealing with HB 1400 today. plan to support HB 1400, and hope that it brings some common sense to the workings of the department. However, hear a lot said these days about making DER more user-friendly. While support that, Mr. Speaker, just want to put on the record that hope that we still have a concern for the people that use the air and the water. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair would advise the? members that just after taking this vote, there will be a very important announcement that will be made by ow Republican whip, and we would appreciate it if you would keep that in mind and not hop up and leave as soon as the vote is taken, because you will need to hear what he has to say. Shall the bill pass finally? The SPEAKER pro tempore. Agreeable to the provisions of the Constitution, the yeas and nays will now be taken. Adolph Allen Argall Armstrong Baker Bard barley Banisto Bebk~Jones Belardi Belfanti Birmelin Bishop Blaum Boscola Bayes Brown Browne Bunt Butkovitz Buxtan Caltagirone Cappabianca Cam Cmne Chadwick Civera Clark Clymer Cohen, L.. Colafella Colaiuo Conti Cornell Egolf Evans Fairchild Fajt Fargo Farmer Feese Fichter Fleagle Flick Gamble Gannon Geist George Gigliotti Gladeck Godshall Gordner Gruiua Gruppo Habay Haluska Hanna Harhal Hasay Hennesrey Herman Hershey Hess Horsey Hutchinson ltkin Jadlowiec James Lynch Maitland Major Manderino Markosek Marsico Maland Mayemik McCall McGeehan McGill Melio Men~ Micouie Miller Mundy Nailor Nickol Nyce O'Brien Oliver perre1 Perci Petrarca Petrane Penit Phillips Piccola Pistella Pins Platts Preston Ramos Raymond Saylor Schroder Schuler Scrimenti Semmel Seratini Shaner Sheehan Smith. B. Smith, S. M. Snyder, D. W. Staback Stairs Steelman Steil Stern Stetler Stish w Slurla Surra Tangretti Taylor, E. Z. Taylor. J. Thomas Tiguz Travaglia Trello Trich True '9 Tulli Vance Van tlorne Veon Walko