Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document 304 Filed 07/12/12 Page 1 of 5 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Transcription

1 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document 304 Filed 07/12/12 Page 1 of 5 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA STATE OF TEXAS, v. Plaintiff, ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official capacity as Attorney General of the United States, ERIC KENNIE, et al., Defendant. Defendant-Intervenors, TEXAS STATE CONFERENCE OF NAACP BRANCHES, et al., Defendant-Intervenors, TEXAS LEAGUE OF YOUNG VOTERS EDUCATION FUND, et al., Defendant-Intervenors, TEXAS LEGISLATIVE BLACK CAUCUS, et al., Defendant-Intervenors, VICTORIA RODRIGUEZ, et al., Defendant-Intervenors. CASE NO. 1:12-CV (RMC-DST-RLW Three-Judge Court NOTICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL S REPLY DESIGNATIONS OF THE PRE- RECORDED VIDEO TESTIMONY OF SENATOR CARLOS URESTI Defendant Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr. ( Attorney General respectfully submits pursuant to FED. R. CIV. P. 32(a(4(B, the following reply designations of Senator

2 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document 304 Filed 07/12/12 Page 2 of 5 Carlos Uresti s pre-recorded trial testimony of June 28, 2012 in response to the State of Texas s counter-designations of Senator Uresti s pre-recorded trial testimony. The transcript of these reply designations as well as the transcript of the pre-recorded direct examination of Senator Uresti presented at trial on July 11 and July 12, 2012 are attached hereto as Ex 1. The Attorney General will provide to the Court, no later than July 12, 2012, a courtesy copy of the official written transcript of the complete examination as well as the video-taped recording of Senator Uresti s direct examination and the reply designations listed below. The Attorney General s reply designations are as follows: 30:11-31:12 38:14-39:11 41:25-42:7 45:19-46:2 47:1-48:15 57:5-62:9 63:16:-25 65:13-67:3 2

3 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document 304 Filed 07/12/12 Page 3 of 5 Date: July 12, 2012 RONALD C. MACHEN, JR. United States Attorney District of Columbia Respectfully submitted, THOMAS E. PEREZ Assistant Attorney General Civil Rights Division /s/ Risa Berkower T. CHRISTIAN HERREN, JR. MEREDITH BELL-PLATTS ELIZABETH S. WESTFALL BRUCE I. GEAR JENNIFER L. MARANZANO SPENCER FISHER RISA BERKOWER DANIEL J. FREEMAN Attorneys Voting Section Civil Rights Division U.S. Department of Justice 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C Telephone: risa.berkower@usdoj.gov 3

4 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document 304 Filed 07/12/12 Page 4 of 5 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE I hereby certify that on July 12, 2012, I served a true and correct copy of the foregoing via the Court s ECF system on the following counsel of record: Jonathan Franklin Mitchell Adam W. Aston Matthew Hamilton Frederick Patrick Kinney Sweeten Office of the Attorney General of Texas jonathan.mitchell@oag.state.tx.us adam.aston@oag.state.tx.us matthew.frederick@oag.state.tx.us Patrick.sweeten@texasattorneygeneral.gov Counsel for Plaintiff Debo P. Adegbile Leah C. Aden Elise C. Boddie Ryan Haygood Dale E. Ho Natasha Korgaonkar NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund dadegbile@naacpldf.org laden@naacpldf.org eboddie@naacpldf.org rhaygood@naacpldf.org dho@naacpldf.org nkorgaonkar@naacpldf.org Michael Birney de Leeuw Douglas H. Flaum Adam M. Harris Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson douglas.flaum@friedfrank.com adam.harris@friedfrank.com michael.deleeuw@friedfrank.com Counsel for Texas League of Young Voters Intervenors J. Gerald Hebert hebert@voterlaw.com Chad W. Dunn Brazil & Dunn chad@brazilanddunn.com Counsel for Kennie Intervenors Jon M. Greenbaum Mark A. Posner Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights mposner@lawyerscommittee.org jgreenbaum@lawyerscommittee.org Ezra David Rosenberg Michelle Hart Yeary Dechert LLP ezra.rosenberg@dechert.com michelle.yeary@dechert.com Robert Stephen Notzon Robert@notzonlaw.com Gary L. Bledsoe Law Office of Gary L. Bledsoe and Associates garybledsoe@sbcglobal.net Myrna Perez Wendy Robin Weiser Ian Arthur Vandewalker The Brennan Center for Justice myrna.perez@nyu.edu wendy.weiser@nyu.edu ian.vandewalker@nyu.edu Counsel for NAACP Intervenors

5 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document 304 Filed 07/12/12 Page 5 of 5 John Tanner john.k.tanner@gmail.com Nancy G. Abudu M. Laughlin McDonald Katie O Connor Arthur B. Spitzer American Civil Liberties Union nabudu@aclu.org lmcdonald@aclu.org koconnor@aclu.org artspitzer@gmail.com Nina Perales Amy Pederson Mexican American Legal Defense & Educational Fund, Inc. nperales@maldef.org apederson@maldef.org Counsel for Rodriguez Intervenors Counsel Texas Legislative Black Caucus Intervenors /s/risa Berkower RISA BERKOWER U.S. Department of Justice 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C risa.berkower@usdoj.gov

6 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 1 of 48 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 1 STATE OF TEXAS, Plaintiff, VS. ERIC H. HOLDER, JR. in his official capacity as Attorney General of the United States, Defendant, ERIC KENNIE, et al, Defendant-Intervenors, TEXAS STATE CONFERENCE OF CASE NO. 1:12-CV NAACP BRANCHES, (RMC-DST-RLW Three-Judge Court Defendant-Intervenors, TEXAS LEAGUE OF YOUNG VOTERS EDUCATION FUND, et al, Defendant-Intervenors, TEXAS LEGISLATIVE BLACK CAUCUS, et al, Defendant-Intervenors, VICTORIA RODRIGUEZ, et al., Defendant-Intervenors. ********************************************** ORAL DEPOSITION OF SENATOR CARLOS URESTI JUNE 28, 2012 **********************************************

7 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 2 of 48 1 ORAL DEPOSITION OF SENATOR CARLOS URESTI, produced 2 2 as a witness at the instance of the Defendant, was duly 3 sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause 4 on the JUNE 28, 2012, from 10:47 a.m. to 12:04 p.m., 5 before Chris Carpenter, CSR, in and for the State of 6 Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the offices of 7 Senator Carlos Uresti, 2530 Southwest Military Drive, 8 San Antonio, TX 78224, pursuant to the Federal Rules of 9 Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on the record 10 or attached hereto

8 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 3 of 48 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 FOR THE PLAINTIFF, STATE OF TEXAS: 3 PATRICK SWEETEN OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF TEXAS 4 P.O. Box Austin, TX West 14th Street 6 8th Floor Austin, TX ( patrick.sweeten@texasattorneygeneral.gov 8 9 FOR THE DEFENDANT, HOLDER, ET AL: 10 Bruce Gear Risa Berkower 11 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW 12 NWB - Room 7202 Washington, DC ( bruce.gear@usdoj.gov 14 risa.berkower@usdoj.gov 15 FOR THE DEFENDANT-INTERVENOR MEXICAN AMERICAN LEGISLATIVE CAUCUS: 16 Jose Garza 17 LAW OFFICE OF JOSE GARZA 7414 Robin Rest Dr. 18 San Antonio, TX ( garzpalm@aol.com 20 Martin Golando ATTORNEY AT LAW Fredericksberg Rd San Antonio, TX ( martin.golando@gmail.com

9 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 4 of 48 1 FOR THE DEPONENT: 2 Roberto "Bobby" Maldonado BOBBY MALDONADO, P.C McCullough Avenue San Antonio, TX ( bobby@bobbymaldonado.com 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Jason Hassay, Assistant to Senator Uresti 7 Celso Cavazos, Videographer

10 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 5 of 48 1 INDEX 2 Appearances SENATOR CARLOS URESTI 4 Examination by Mr. Gear...7 Examination by Mr. Sweeten Further Examination by Mr. Gear...57 Further Examination by Mr. Sweeten Signature and Changes Reporter's Certificate EXHIBITS 9 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE MARKED 10 1 Map of Senate District (Demonstrative exhibit retained by counsel and page-sized duplicate attached Senate Population Analysis with County Subtotals

11 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 6 of 48 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. This is Tape 6 2 Number 1 to the videotaped deposition of Senator Carlos 3 Uresti in the matter of State of Texas versus Eric 4 Holder, Jr., et al. Being heard before the U.S. 5 District Court for the District of Columbia. File 6 Number is 1-12-CV This deposition is being held at Southwest Military Drive in San Antonio, Texas, on June 9 the 26th, 2012, at 10:47 a.m. My name is Celso Cavazos, 10 and I'm the videographer. The court reporter is Chris 11 Carpenter. 12 Counsel, will you please introduce 13 yourselves and affiliations, and the witness will be 14 sworn. 15 MR. GEAR: It's actually June 28th. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm sorry. June the 17 28th. Correction. 18 MR. GEAR: My name is Bruce Gear. I'm 19 with the Department of Justice. I represent the 20 defendant, Eric Holder. 21 MS. BERKOWER: Risa Berkower with the 22 Department of Justice for Eric Holder. 23 MR. SWEETEN: Patrick Sweeten with the 24 Texas Attorney General's Office on behalf of the State 25 of Texas.

12 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 7 of 48 1 MR. GARZA: Jose Garza representing the 7 2 Mexican American Legislative Caucus Intervenor in this 3 case. 4 MR. GOLANDO: Martin Golando, Mexican 5 American Legislative Caucus. 6 MR. MALDONADO: Bobby Maldonado 7 representing Senator Uresti. 8 SENATOR CARLOS URESTI, 9 Having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the 10 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as 11 follows: 12 EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. GEAR: 14 Q. Senator, good morning. 15 A. Good morning. 16 Q. Again, my name is Bruce Gear. I'm with the 17 Department of Justice, and I represent Eric Holder in 18 this case. I'll be asking you a series of questions. 19 You've been placed under oath, and we expect you to 20 answer the questions fully and completely and 21 truthfully. Do you understand that? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. And is there anything that would prevent 24 you from answering the questions truthfully today? 25 A. No, sir.

13 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 8 of 48 1 Q. Okay. And so with that, I'm just going to go 8 2 right into your -- your questioning. 3 Are you currently a member of the Texas 4 Senate? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Which district do you represent in the Senate? 7 A. District Q. How long have you been a Senate member? 9 A. Just over six years. 10 Q. Did you serve in the government prior to 11 becoming a Senator? 12 A. Yes, sir, I served as a state representative 13 for District Q. And as far as District 118 is concerned, was 15 any of District 118 encompassed in your current 16 district? 17 A. Most of District 118 was in -- is in District 18 19, which is in -- District 118 is primarily in Bexar 19 County. 20 Q. And what percentage of that district would you 21 say is in -- is in your current Senate district? 22 A. Approximately 85 percent. 23 Q. Could you please describe your Senate district 24 geographically? 25 A. Yes, sir. Senate District 19 commences

14 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 9 of 48 1 primarily on the southeast side of San Antonio, which is 9 2 in Bexar County, and extends all the way to El Paso, 3 which if you were to drive it, is about a nine-hour 4 drive one way from San Antonio to El Paso. It includes 5 23 counties, all or part of 23 counties. It doesn't 6 include the City of El Paso, but includes the County of 7 El Paso. It's approximately a little over 50,000 square 8 miles. It includes two-thirds of the Texas-Mexico 9 border. It has about 62 school districts. So it's 10 considered the largest geographical Senate district in 11 the Continental United States. 12 Q. And what percentage of your constituents are 13 African American or Hispanic? 14 A. Approximately MR. SWEETEN: Objection, compound. Go 16 ahead. 17 A. Approximately 5 percent. 18 Q. (By Mr. Gear And let me break that up. What 19 percentage of your constituents are African American? 20 A. Yes, sir. Approximately 5 percent of my 21 constituents are African American. 22 Q. What percentage of your constituents are 23 Hispanic? 24 A. Just shy of 70 percent. 25 Q. Do you believe that it's important to

15 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 10 of 48 1 understand the racial demographics of your constituents? 10 2 A. Absolutely. 3 Q. Why? 4 A. Well, I've learned a long time ago as a 5 legislator that you have to represent your district. 6 You have to vote your district. And the only way to 7 truly understand your district and to vote your district 8 is to know the people that you represent. And given 9 that 75 percent of my -- approximately 75 percent of my 10 constituency are either African American or Hispanic, I 11 think that's very important in the way that I represent 12 them. 13 Q. Thank you. 14 What are the poverty rates in your 15 district? Do you know that? 16 A. Generally, yes, sir. My district in -- is 17 considered the second to third poorest district in the 18 state of Texas. At least as far as the 2000 consensus census is concerned, the per-capita income is about 20 12,500 per year. There's a number of my constituents 21 that live in poverty or right along -- right at the 22 border or level of the federal poverty level. 23 Q. Are minorities in your district more or less 24 likely to own a vehicle as compared to Anglos? 25 MR. SWEETEN: Objection, foundation.

16 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 11 of 48 1 A. Based on what I know about my district, they 11 2 are less likely to own a vehicle. 3 Q. (By Mr. Gear And how do you know this? 4 A. Well, again, I've represented Senate District 5 19 for about six years. I don't think -- I candidly can 6 say anyone knows my district better than I do. I have 7 toured it extensively. I've traveled it quite often. I 8 have block-walked my neighborhoods. I have had town 9 hall meetings. I've had large groups of folks come in 10 and talk to me. 11 I've gotten to know my district pretty 12 well. I know, for example, in Maverick County, the 13 poverty levels are pretty high. I know in Presidio 14 County along the border, they're pretty high. So based 15 on my representation of the district, I can make that 16 statement. 17 Q. Can you discuss the availability of public 18 transportation in your district? 19 A. I can say that in San Antonio, the 20 transportation is -- bus transportation is actually 21 pretty good. I mean, it's pretty impressive. But once 22 you leave San Antonio, and by that I mean you go miles outside of Bexar County, there's no 24 infrastructure, bus transportation, other than perhaps a 25 Greyhound bus. So if you wanted to catch a Greyhound

17 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 12 of 48 1 bus from Del Rio, for example, you could take a 12 2 Greyhound. But within the city of Del Rio, there's no 3 bus transportation. 4 Q. And again, how do you know this? 5 A. I know it based on the fact that I've 6 represented it so long. I know Del Rio very well. And 7 I'm not just speaking about Del Rio. I'm speaking about 8 Eagle Pass, which is another large town in my district, 9 Uvalde, so on and so forth. In other words, other than 10 San Antonio, which is on one end of the district, and 11 El Paso, which is the other end, there's no 12 infrastructure to speak of within those towns. 13 Q. In 2007, was a photo voter ID bill considered 14 by the Texas Senate? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Was that bill HB 218? 17 A. Yes, sir, I think that's correct. 18 Q. Was there an attempt to bring HB 218 to the 19 Senate Floor for a vote? 20 A. Yes, sir, there was. 21 Q. Who made that decision to bring it to the Floor 22 for a vote? 23 A. My understanding was the Lieutenant Governor, 24 David Dewhurst. 25 Q. And that's David Dewhurst?

18 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 13 of 48 1 A. Yes, sir Q. When did you first learn that the Lieutenant 3 Governor was going to attempt to bring HB 218 to the 4 Floor? 5 A. The morning that that occurred, I was actually 6 home in my apartment. I was sick with the flu. And I 7 was called by Senator Hinojosa to essentially hurry my 8 butt up and get to the Senate Floor, because the voter 9 ID bill, as we called it, was going to come up. 10 Q. So you first learned about the vote by Senator 11 Hinojosa? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Why were you not in the Senate that day? 14 A. Again, I had the flu. I went home early that 15 afternoon -- the day before, rather. I was suffering 16 with the flu. And I went home. Tried to get better. 17 And the following morning, the day that the bill came 18 up, again, I was in bed, sick. And I called in, 19 essentially, to the Secretary of the Senate, Patsy Spaw, 20 to advise her that I would be in later in the 21 afternoon. Plus I called two other committee 22 chairmen -- chairman and a chairwoman, to the advise 23 them of the same. 24 Q. And who were the two other committee chairmen 25 and -women?

19 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 14 of 48 1 A. It was Chairman Brimer, Kim Brimer. He was the 14 2 chairman of the -- at the time, of the Administration 3 Committee. And we had an early committee hearing that 4 morning. And Senator Jane Nelson, she's the chairwoman 5 of Health and Human Services. 6 Q. Do you recall what you told Senator Brimer? 7 A. We actually called their offices. They weren't 8 in yet. We called pretty early in the morning. Again, 9 I don't like to be late to meetings, and I was a 10 freshman Senator, and I was trying to do the senatorial 11 thing and just simply put them on notice I would be in 12 later in the morning. I was going to try to rest and 13 feel better. 14 Q. What was your action when you heard -- reaction 15 when you heard that HB 218 was being brought to the 16 Senate Floor? 17 A. I was stunned. Again, I was sick in bed. At 18 first, I thought, quite frankly, I thought Senator 19 Hinojosa was teasing me, but then when I heard in his 20 voice he was not teasing me, I jumped out of bed, got 21 as -- dressed as quickly as I could, and literally ran 22 to the Capitol from my apartment, which is about 50 to yards away, and ran on to the Senate Floor to cast my 24 vote in objection to the bill. 25 Q. Do you recall if you had any conversations with

20 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 15 of 48 1 other senators about whether this would happen while you 15 2 were out sick? 3 A. The day before I was in the members' lounge 4 laying on one of the chairs because, again, I was sick 5 with the flu, and I recall Senator Leticia Van de Putte 6 and Senator Kyle Janek were in the members' lounge. And 7 again, they were kind of teasing me, but they encouraged 8 me to go home. What's interesting is Senator Janek is a 9 doctor, and Senator Van de Putte is a pharmacist. And 10 so actually, I was seeking some medical advice from 11 them, if you will, and they encouraged me to go home. 12 They said -- and Senator Janek specifically said, "It's 13 not like we're going to take up the voter ID bill, 14 Carlos." And I said, "Okay. I'm going to go home," and 15 that's in fact what I did. 16 MR. SWEETEN: Objection, hearsay. Move to 17 strike the hearsay sections. 18 MR. GEAR: This is a contemporary contemporaneous statement. It's an effect on the 20 listener. It's not being offered for the truth of the 21 matter asserted. 22 THE WITNESS: Can we stop for a moment, 23 please? 24 MR. GEAR: Okay. 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record.

21 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 16 of 48 1 The time is 10: (Discussion off the record. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the 4 record. The time is 10:58. 5 Q. (By Mr. Gear Why did you decide to come in 6 late that day to the Senate? 7 A. Well, it really wasn't my decision. I was sick 8 with the flu. I didn't have any energy the day before. 9 Again, I had gone home early, which is not like me to 10 do, but I didn't have a choice. And so I felt that I 11 was able to call in, let my colleagues know I would be 12 coming in later in the morning. Because it's the custom 13 of the Senate that after we do roll call first thing in 14 the morning, we do the prayer, then we do doctor of the 15 day, which is where we identify the doctor that's going 16 to take care of the senators for the day. They kind of 17 volunteer. We do resolutions where we honor, for 18 example, a soldier that might have just returned from from -- from one of the wars. We honor -- we do County 20 Days, Uvalde County Day, somebody is celebrating their 21 50th anniversary, so on and so forth. And that usually 22 takes, sometimes it takes two or three hours, but at 23 minimum, an hour or hour and a half. So I felt 24 comfortable that given that that was the way things were 25 done on a daily basis, one, coupled with the fact that I

22 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 17 of 48 1 had informed my colleagues that I was out with the flu, 17 2 that I could get a couple of hours of rest before we 3 started the -- the Senate's business. 4 Q. Was the vote done differently that day? 5 A. Absolutely. 6 Q. How was it done differently? 7 A. Well, I was in there when it all commenced, but 8 as I understand it, they -- the Lieutenant Governor and 9 the presiding officer decided to skip with the -- the 10 resolutions, the normal resolutions of the day and go 11 straight into bringing up, as we call it, the voter ID 12 bill. In other words, what normally would have taken an 13 hour to two hours, handling the -- the resolutions, 14 honoring the soldiers, marines, et cetera, was put on 15 hold, and immediately that bill was called up. 16 Q. Did HB 218 pass the Senate? 17 A. No, sir. I was able to make it to the Floor in 18 time to vote against it on the second time that the 19 Lieutenant Governor called it up. 20 Q. After HB 218 failed to pass in the Senate, did 21 there come a time when you had a conversation with the 22 Lieutenant Governor about the bill? 23 MR. SWEETEN: Objection to legislative 24 privilege. And go ahead. 25 MR. GEAR: And I would just respond to

23 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 18 of 48 1 that, that there is a motion in limine pending. If the 18 2 court rules in your favor then you would have an 3 opportunity to move to strike his answer. 4 Q. (By Mr. Gear Please answer. 5 A. Immediately after I made it on to the Senate 6 Floor, I -- you basically vote. If you vote against the 7 bill, you hold up two fingers. If you vote for a bill, 8 you hold up one finger. I walked around the Senate 9 Floor and held up my two fingers. Again, I didn't 10 realize everything that happened before. After the roll 11 call was completed, the presiding officer gaveled, said 12 that the bill failed to pass. And within a few -- a 13 minute or so, the presiding officer, the Lieutenant 14 Governor Dewhurst walked up to my desk, and I was 15 sitting kind of slouched down like this, trying to catch 16 my breath, and he leaned over my desk and said "Senator" or said "Carlos, I'm sorry, but I had to try to pass 18 that bill." 19 Q. And that conversation took place on the Floor? 20 A. Yes, sir, immediately after the vote. 21 Q. After 2007, the vote, what if anything did 22 supporters do of the bill to ensure, in 2009, to ensure 23 they could successfully bring voter ID legislation to 24 the Floor for a full vote? 25 MR. SWEETEN: Objection, foundation.

24 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 19 of 48 1 Objection, calls for speculation A. Well, what we have in the Senate -- in the 3 Senate, is we have what's called "the two-thirds rule," 4 and there are 31 state senators. And essentially, what 5 that means is before a bill can be called up for 6 consideration on the Senate Floor for a vote, two-thirds 7 of the senators that are present have to agree to bring 8 up the bill for debate, for discussion. Now, they can 9 vote against the bill, ultimately, or they can, of 10 course, vote in favor of it, but to bring up a bill, 11 two-thirds have to agree to do that. 12 And that's what I think allows our Senate 13 to work so well together. It allows for compromise. 14 Because whether, regardless of what party is in the 15 majority, if you don't have 21 senators agreeing to 16 bring up the bill, then you have to reach across the 17 aisle to get other senators to work with you to vote to 18 bring up that bill. 19 In this situation, the -- it only takes a 20 majority of the senators to change the rules, the 21 majority, which would be the Senate -- the Republican 22 senators at the time agreed to do away with the 23 two-thirds rule with regard to the voter ID bill. 24 Q. Do you recall any discussion in 2007 off the 25 record among legislators regarding noncitizens voting?

25 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 20 of 48 1 MR. SWEETEN: Objection to the extent it 20 2 calls for legislative privilege. 3 MR. GEAR: And again, I would -- I would 4 just reply that there is a pending motion in limine. If 5 the court rules in your favor, then you would have an 6 opportunity to move to strike. 7 Q. (By Mr. Gear Please answer. 8 A. I'm sorry. In 2007? 9 Q. 2007, yes. 10 A. Yes. I recall general discussions among amongst the legislators about the concern of non-u.s. 12 citizens voting. 13 Q. Do you recall where those conversations took 14 place? 15 A. Senate Floor, perhaps in the members' lounge, 16 in the hallways of the Capitol. 17 Q. Were they frequent? How often did they happen? 18 A. Well, I can't say specifically, but that was, I 19 think, one of the primary concerns, I'm not saying the 20 only concern, but the primary concern that I heard from 21 the proponents of the bill. 22 Q. And did that carry through to 2011? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Are you familiar with SB 14? 25 A. Yes, sir.

26 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 21 of 48 1 Q. Can you describe generally the photo ID 21 2 requirements under SB 14? 3 A. Generally, as I recall -- as I recall Senate 4 Bill 14, it requires that in addition to a voter 5 registration card, a Texas voter has to have certain 6 forms of ID. One of them would be a Texas driver's 7 license that's not expired, or a Texas ID that is not 8 expired, that's issued by the Department of Public 9 Safety. A certification of U.S. citizenship would be 10 another form of ID. A concealed handgun license would 11 be another form of ID. A passport. And I believe the 12 fifth one was a military ID with a photograph. 13 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not SB will impact your constituents? 15 A. Yes, I do have an opinion whether or not Senate 16 Bill 14 will impact my constituents, and there's no 17 question in my mind that it will impact my constituents. 18 Q. Describe your concerns, please. 19 A. Again, I represent approximately 800, constituents in Senate District percent percent Hispanic, about 5 percent African American. I 22 represent two-thirds of the Texas-Mexico border. It's a 23 very poor district. These are folks that are barely 24 making it. 25 To require them to be able to obtain these

27 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 22 of 48 1 different forms of ID will be very difficult, one. But 22 2 two, what I think is very important, is the geographical 3 distances in my district. There are some towns in my 4 district where the nearest DPS office is about a hundred 5 to 125 miles, one way. There are some counties, out of 6 the 23 counties, where the DPS offices are either 7 closed, completely closed, or they have limited hours. 8 For example, they may be open one or two days a 9 week. And there are some counties that where the DPS 10 office is only open one day a month. 11 So given all of that, it's going to be 12 extremely difficult for my constituents that don't have 13 the -- those different forms of ID, and I would submit 14 that many of them don't to begin with. But two, in 15 order to obtain them, it would be extremely difficult. 16 Q. Did you express these concerns to supporters of 17 the photo ID? 18 A. Yes, sir. I recall expressing those concerns 19 specifically on the Senate Floor when the bills came up 20 for debate. 21 Q. And how did you express these concerns? What 22 did you say when you expressed the concerns? 23 A. Well, I was much more specific about the DPS 24 offices that were closed in expressing my concerns to 25 the author of the bill at the time, which was Senator

28 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 23 of 48 1 Fraser. I mentioned the different counties. I 23 2 mentioned the DPS offices that were closed. 3 Interesting enough, Senator Fraser used to 4 represent a large part of my district before I did, of 5 course, and he's familiar with that area. Keeping in 6 mind, West Texas is very vast, and there's a long -- a 7 long way between the towns to travel. So he 8 acknowledged that and appreciated that. 9 I mentioned it to all the other senators 10 on the Senate Floor as well. Essentially mentioned the 11 greatness of the size, the distances to travel to the 12 DPS offices, how many of my counties had -- that either 13 didn't have an office or had offices with limited hours, 14 et cetera. And keep in mind that in order to get a 15 Texas driver's license or Texas ID, you have to get it 16 from a Department of Public Safety office. 17 Q. So you mentioned Senator Fraser, beyond 18 acknowledging your concerns, what if any other response 19 did you get to the concerns that you expressed? 20 A. Most of the responses, if you look at the 21 dialogue between Senator Fraser and I on the Senate 22 Floor, most of his responses, when I would ask him 23 specific questions about the DPS offices, were we going 24 to open up more DPS offices, how are we going to 25 accommodate my constituents, he would refer me to either

29 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 24 of 48 1 the DPS office or the Secretary of State's Office. None 24 2 of which were there during the debate on the Senate 3 Floor. 4 Q. So when was the first time you expressed these 5 concerns either on the Senate Floor or to other 6 legislators? 7 A. Well, I would, again, when the discussion 8 started in 2007, amongst the different senators, we 9 would talk about that, of course. There was no question 10 in anyone's mind where the different senators stood in on the voter ID bill. Everybody knew that the 12 Democrats were going to vote against it, and the 13 Republicans were going to vote for it. And in fact, 14 that's the way it worked out in ' Q. Did you raise those concerns again in 2009? 16 A. Absolutely. 17 Q. And did you get a different response? 18 A. No, sir, they all voted -- I say "they," the 19 Republican senators, my colleagues all voted in favor of 20 the bill. 21 Q. Did you raise those concerns again in 2011? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And was it a similar response? 24 A. Exactly the same. 25 Q. What did they say in response to your concerns?

30 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 25 of 48 1 MR. SWEETEN: Objection to the extent it 25 2 calls for privilege. 3 MR. GEAR: And it would be my same 4 response that there's a pending motion in limine. 5 A. Well, generally, you know, they expressed their 6 concern is that of trying to prevent voter fraud, that 7 there was a lot of voter fraud going on in Texas, and 8 that was the thrust of their concern. 9 Q. (By Mr. Gear Did they express any other 10 concerns? 11 A. Those primarily, generally, that was their 12 number one concern, yet they never could prove that 13 there was any voter fraud that existed. 14 Q. Was the concern about noncitizens voting a part 15 of the discussions that you engaged in with the 16 supporters? 17 A. Absolutely. 18 Q. Do you recall who specifically made these 19 comments to you? 20 A. I can't say, I can't recall which Senator 21 specifically, just that was the general discussions and 22 their general concerns. 23 Q. Do you know if your -- if constituents of your 24 district prefer to vote by absentee or in person at the 25 polls?

31 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 26 of 48 1 MR. SWEETEN: Objection, foundation A. A majority of my constituents vote in person, 3 either early vote or the day of election. A small 4 number do vote my mail. 5 Q. And how do you know this? 6 A. Because I work a poll, a voting poll every 7 single election. I haven't missed one. I have worked 8 the primary -- and I say "one," I'm talking about in the 9 last 16 years, I have worked a voting poll. So I see my 10 constituents. I know which constituents are going to 11 vote at particular polls. We block walk. We encourage 12 them to come out. We work early voting sites. I look 13 at the -- the voting results to see which precincts are 14 voting in greater numbers than others. I mean, 15 that's -- to get reelected, you've got to know who's 16 voting and where, and so we look at the those numbers 17 very closely. 18 Q. Okay. And after you raised the concerns about 19 the impact of photo ID requirements on your -- on your 20 constituents, did the legislature take any steps to 21 investigate the concerns that you raised? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Are you familiar with the election 24 identification certificate? 25 A. Generally, yes, sir.

32 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 27 of 48 1 Q. Do you have any opinion as to whether the 27 2 election identification certificate would eliminate the 3 burden on voters imposed by SB 14? 4 A. I do have an opinion, and it's -- it's my 5 opinion that it would not eliminate that burden as a 6 result of Senate Bill Q. And why? 8 A. Well, because it doesn't negate the other 9 challenges that I've already mentioned, the distances 10 that my constituents have to travel, coupled with, 11 again, the poverty rates. These folks, very few of them 12 have cars, have reliable cars, can get off of work. So 13 this Senate Bill 14 doesn't do anything to deal with the 14 closures of the DPS offices in my district, the limited 15 hours. It does absolutely nothing to deal with those 16 issues. 17 Q. Will SB 14, if enacted, have a discriminatory 18 effect on minor voters? 19 MR. SWEETEN: Objection, foundation. 20 A. Yes, sir, it will. 21 Q. (By Mr. Gear Why do you believe that? 22 A. Well, again, I'm speaking specifically to my 23 district, wherein there's 70 percent Hispanic and about 24 5 percent African American. I know it very well. I've 25 represented it for six years. There are obstacles that

33 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 28 of 48 1 are put in place by Senate Bill 14, by requiring a U.S citizen who has a voter registration card to go out and 3 have to obtain another ID, another form of ID, that 4 would be a challenge because of the distances they have 5 to travel, the closures of the Department of Public 6 Safety offices, the fact that my constituents, many of 7 them live in poverty, it would be a great, I think, in 8 my opinion, a great challenge to them and an obstacle. 9 MR. GEAR: Thank you. I have nothing 10 further. 11 EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. SWEETEN: 13 Q. Okay. Senator Uresti, I'm Patrick Sweeten. I 14 introduced myself earlier. I'm with the Texas Attorney 15 General's Office. 16 Let me start by saying, it's a true 17 statement, isn't it, that it is not your view that the 18 legislature passed Senate Bill 14 for the purpose of 19 harming African American voters in Texas, correct? 20 MR. GEAR: Objection, calls for legal 21 conclusion, speculation. 22 MR. MALDONADO: Same objection. 23 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten That's correct, isn't it? 24 A. Can you ask your question again, Counsel? 25 Q. Yes. True statement, isn't it, that it is not

34 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 29 of 48 1 passed Senate Bill 14 for the purpose of harming African 30 2 American voters in Texas?" You answered at that time, 3 "Not as a whole, no." 4 Do you recall giving that answer? 5 A. Yes, sir, I do. 6 Q. Okay. And was that a true statement when you 7 made that under oath at the time? 8 A. Yes, sir, it was. 9 Q. And is that still your opinion, sir? 10 A. Yes, sir, it is. 11 Q. Okay. Now, I'm also going to ask you, you 12 agree that you cannot say that any individual member of 13 the legislature voter for the bill because they thought 14 it would negatively affect Latino or African American 15 voters and that they wanted it to have that effect, 16 correct? 17 MR. GEAR: Objection, calls for 18 speculation. 19 MR. MALDONADO: Same objection. 20 A. No, sir, I don't think I can -- I -- I don't 21 think I said that in my deposition. I'm not saying that 22 now that I can identify a specific Senator that had that 23 specific intent. 24 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten Okay. So you're not 25 indicating that the legislature, as a whole, passed

35 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 30 of 48 1 Senate Bill 14 with discriminatory purpose, correct? 31 2 A. No, because not all of the legislators voted 3 for the bill. That's why I said "not as a whole." 4 Q. Okay. But the legislature that passed Senate 5 Bill 14 did not pass it for -- with a discriminatory 6 purpose as to Latinos and African Americans, and that's 7 what you said, correct? 8 MR. GEAR: Objection. I think that's a 9 mischaracterization of his testimony, and it calls for 10 speculation. 11 MR. MALDONADO: Same objection. 12 A. That's not what I said, Counsel. 13 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten Okay. Did you -- did you 14 indicate during your deposition that you were not able 15 to indicate that any individual legislator passed Senate 16 Bill 14 with the purpose of discriminating against 17 Latinos and African Americans? 18 MR. GARZA: Objection, argumentative and 19 asked and answered. 20 MR. MALDONADO: Same objection. 21 A. I believe what I said, Counselor, is that I I could not identify an individual legislator that did 23 it with that purpose, but that's not to say that they 24 didn't. 25 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten But your testimony is that

36 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 31 of 48 1 exhibit? 38 2 MR. SWEETEN: No. But you can just refer 3 to it. So -- 4 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten Now, you understood -- first 5 of all, you worked with the Department of Justice in 6 signing this affidavit, in preparing this affidavit, 7 correct? 8 A. I don't know what you mean by "worked with 9 them". 10 Q. When you executed the affidavit, you talked 11 with the Department of Justice about what's in the 12 affidavit? 13 A. We reviewed it together, yes, sir. 14 Q. You met with Mr. Gear to review the information 15 within the affidavit, correct? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Okay. Did you -- and you met with Mr. Gear 18 prior to this deposition today, didn't you? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Okay. And -- and when you filled out this 21 affidavit, do you know whether this was filed with the 22 court in Washington, D.C., sir? 23 A. I really don't know. 24 Q. Now, one of the things that you say in this 25 affidavit -- let me get it -- is that for thousands of

37 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 32 of 48 1 constituents who live in Ozona, Presidio and Sierra 39 2 Blanca, the average travel time to the nearest driver's 3 license office is approximately a three-hour trip. Did 4 you write that? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Okay. Now, are you aware that your statement 7 regarding Presidio is incorrect? 8 A. In what regard? 9 Q. Do you -- are you aware that there's a DPS 10 driver's license office in Presidio as of January 2011? 11 A. It is not always open. 12 Q. Okay. I understand, but there is a DPS office 13 in Presidio; is that correct? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. So when you said that there's not one in 16 Presidio, you -- that's not a correct statement, 17 correct? 18 MR. GEAR: Objection. I think that's a 19 mischaracterization of his -- his testimony. 20 A. I don't think I said there's not one in 21 Presidio. 22 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten Well, you said -- what you 23 say is, for thousands of constituents who live in Ozona, 24 Presidio and Sierra Blanca, the average travel time to 25 the nearest driver's license office is approximately

38 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 33 of 48 1 it's not a full-time office. So you can't always walk 41 2 into the Presidio DPS office and expect to have a DPS 3 trooper there ready to issue you a Texas driver's 4 license or a Texas ID. 5 Q. But the office hours are full-time? 6 A. But there's not somebody there -- there's not 7 someone there -- the office hours are full-time, but 8 it's -- that's not what happens in reality, Counselor. 9 Q. What is the -- what is the total population of 10 Presidio County? 11 A. It's approximately 8,000 people. 12 Q. So 8,000 people live there. The office hours 13 of the DPS office are full-time. You're saying that 14 there may be times when it's not manned, correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. Now, it's true that Senate Bill provided for a free identification for any resident that 18 does not have a driver's license, correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 MR. GEAR: Objection, calls for legal 21 conclusion. 22 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten And that's what -- that's 23 what Senate Bill 14 says, correct? 24 A. I believe so. 25 Q. It's also a true statement that in Texas, that

39 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 34 of 48 1 those who are 65 or older can vote by mail? 42 2 A. I think anyone can vote by mail if they want 3 to. 4 Q. Okay. So, and your testimony is that you're 5 not disenfranchised if you're able to cast your ballot 6 by mail, correct? 7 A. I don't think I said that. 8 MR. SWEETEN: Let's go off the record for 9 a second. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. 11 The time is 11: (Recess. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, please. 14 We're back on the record. The time is 11: Q. (By Mr. Sweeten Okay. You did testify, did 16 you not, that a person that is able to cast their ballot 17 by mail, that that individual would not be denied their 18 right to vote under Senate Bill 14, right? 19 MR. GEAR: Objection, mischaracterization 20 of his testimony. 21 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten Is that what you said? 22 A. Well, of course, I did. If they voted by mail, 23 they weren't denied the right to vote. So I think 24 that's exactly what I said. 25 Q. And that's your testimony, correct?

40 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 35 of 48 1 MR. GEAR: Objection, leading Q. (By Mr. Sweeten And in fact, when you 3 testified earlier that you believed the rates of vehicle 4 possession were lower for ethnic minorities, do you 5 recall that testimony? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. You don't have any data to support that 8 conclusion? 9 A. Just again representing the district for six 10 years. 11 Q. Now, when you talked about earlier in response 12 to Mr. Gear's questions about noncitizens voting, it's 13 not problematic to prevent noncitizens from voting in 14 elections within the state of Texas to you, is it? 15 A. Is it problematic to me? 16 Q. Correct. I mean A. Of course not. I don't think anyone that is 18 not registered or not legal to vote should vote. 19 Q. Current law doesn't allow -- so you're not you don't quibble with current law that doesn't allow 21 for noncitizen voting, correct? 22 A. Which current law? 23 Q. Well, I'm just asking -- let me just ask as a 24 general matter then. You don't have any problem with 25 preventing noncitizens of the state or the country from

41 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 36 of 48 1 voting? 46 2 A. Of course not. 3 Q. You don't know, as you're sitting here, how 4 many of your constituents do not have a driver's 5 license? 6 A. Of course not. 7 Q. You don't know how many do not have a state- 8 issued personal ID card? 9 A. I'd have to defer to the Secretary of State. 10 Q. You don't know how many have a passport? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. You don't know how many have a concealed 13 handgun license? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. It's a true statement -- let's talk about the 16 two-thirds rule. It's a true statement, isn't it, that 17 on the first day of every session the senators who are 18 elected by their districts caucus and vote on rules, 19 correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. And the Senate that is meeting, the 22 elected Senate representatives from their Senate 23 districts get together and they decide what rules they 24 want to operate under for the coming session? 25 A. Yes, sir.

42 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 37 of 48 1 Q. If the Senate on the first day of the session 47 2 caucuses and decides that they want to consider every 3 piece of legislation before the Senate body on a 4 majority vote, they have the absolute right to do that, 5 correct? 6 A. It's never been done before, but I guess they 7 could. 8 Q. Okay. There's nothing -- there's nothing 9 illegal about that, correct? 10 A. Other than it's never been done before. 11 Q. Okay. Well, it was done -- and you're sure you're indicating that it's never been done before? 13 A. That every bill MR. GEAR: Objection, asked and answered. 15 A. That every bill has come up before the Senate 16 for vote? 17 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten Well, let me just ask you 18 this: There are circumstances where a two-third 19 majority is not required for passage of a bill, correct? 20 A. I don't think that was your question, 21 Counselor. What's your -- ask your question again, 22 please. 23 Q. I'll have the court reporter A. Sure. 25 Q. -- repeat the question.

43 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 38 of 48 1 (Requested portion was read back by the 48 2 court reporter. 3 A. We don't require two-thirds to pass a bill. 4 It's a majority to pass the bill. 5 Q. (By Mr. Sweeten Okay. But back to the 6 Senate. The Senate, if they decided they wanted to use 7 a 60 percent rule as opposed to a two-thirds rule, they 8 have the absolute right to do that, to set that rule for 9 the coming session? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. No problem with that at all? 12 A. I have a problem with that. 13 Q. Well, there's nothing illegal about that or 14 improper? 15 A. Of course not. 16 Q. Now, you are a fairly new senator. You've you've had three legislative sessions now, correct? 18 A. Yes. I think I'm actually, out of 31 senators, 19 I'm ranked, seniority-wise, number 18 of Q. Okay. So you've been involved in three 21 legislative sessions? 22 A. In the Senate; and then in the House, I served 23 for nine years. 24 Q. Okay. So in the Senate, in your three 25 legislative sessions, all three times, the voter

44 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 39 of 48 1 (Recess THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the 3 record. 4 FURTHER EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. GEAR: 6 Q. This is my opportunity to engage in a little 7 redirect, so I'm going to be asking you a few follow-up 8 questions. 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Do you think that SB 14 was enacted with a 11 discriminatory purpose? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Why? 14 A. Well, again, looking at my district 15 specifically, the impact that it's going to have on the 16 constituents in Senate District 19, I think definitely 17 will disenfranchise them, discourage them, prevent them 18 from voting. 19 Q. Can you say this even though you can't know 20 what each individual legislator was thinking? 21 A. Well, I think it's impossible for anyone to 22 know what any legislator is thinking on any bill, much 23 less on this bill, but what I'm focusing on is the the effect of the bill, and I think that's what matters 25 most. People can have good intent all day long, but

45 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 40 of 48 1 it's -- it's the end product, it's the end result. And 58 2 clearly, the end result, end product of Senate Bill 14 3 is going to discourage or disenfranchise voters. 4 Q. And was the legislature on notice of your 5 concerns about the effects of Senate Bill 14? 6 A. Over six years they were put on notice, not 7 only of my objection to the voter ID bill and 8 specifically Senate Bill 14, but by other members as 9 well. 10 Q. Do some people in your district not have 11 driver's licenses? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And how do you know that? 14 A. Well, again, I've represented for quite some 15 time those constituents. I've met with them in 16 different forums, different groups, and they have 17 expressed that to me. I can't give a specific number. 18 I don't think anyone can give a specific number. But I 19 just know generally from representing the district that 20 they don't have driver's licenses. 21 Q. And you talked about the poverty rates. You 22 talked about the burden on -- on even getting to a 23 grocery store. Is it uncommon for people in your 24 district not to have a driver's license? 25 MR. SWEETEN: Objection to the -- to the

46 Case 1:12-cv RMC-DST-RLW Document Filed 07/12/12 Page 41 of 48 1 question as leading, but go ahead A. It's not uncommon for them, for -- for many of 3 my constituents not to have a driver's license or a 4 Texas ID. 5 Q. (By Mr. Gear Are the 8,000 people in the 6 rural Presidio residents of these -- are they residents 7 of a rural community? 8 A. Yes, sir, they are. 9 Q. Are they any less entitled to vote than 10 individuals in urban area? 11 A. Absolutely not. 12 Q. If a citizen in the state of Texas has to pay 13 for the underlying documents to get a free election 14 certificate, does that mean that the ID itself is free? 15 A. Well, of course it's not free and MR. SWEETEN: Objection, vague. 17 Objection, leading. Go ahead. I'm sorry. 18 A. Of course it's not free. And in essence, it's 19 equivalent to a poll tax. 20 Q. (By Mr. Gear Did you ever ask Senator Fraser 21 for information about how many people would be impacted 22 by SB 14? 23 MR. SWEETEN: Objection, privilege. 24 A. I believe I did, Counselor. 25 Q. (By Mr. Gear And what was the response?