[Note: Lola Williams had recently had a throat operation and her voice is fairly hoarse throughout the interview.]

Transcription

1 WILLIAMS, LOLA C- START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A LOLA WILLIAMS APRIL 20, 1995 [Note: Lola Williams had recently had a throat operation and her voice is fairly hoarse throughout the interview.] ALICIA ROUVEROL: This is Alicia Rouverol and I'm with Ms. Lola Williams at the Center for Women's Economic Alternatives in Ahoskie, North Carolina, and today's date is April 20, This tape number is LW.l, and we're going to be talking about Ms. Williams' work here at the Center and about activism and leadership. This is for the Women's Leadership Project for the Southern Oral History Program. So I thought maybe we could start with-let me turn this up a little bit. I might just go ahead and move it closer too. I thought maybe we could start with when and where you were born and a little bit about you came up, you know, and how you came to work here at the Center. LOLA WILLIAMS: Okay. I was born in Rich Square, North Carolina, which is in Northhampton County, the county that adjoins this one. I was born December 4, My daddy was a sharecropper, and when I was seven years old, there was a chance in Halifax County for him to own his own farm. So when I was seven, we moved to Halifax County where I was placed on a farm with my five brothers and my parents, and that's where I worked until I finished high school. The year after I finished high school I went off to college, but I found out my father couldn't forward it so I came back home. I got married and started raising a family, and my husband was killed two years later. I started working with an organization in my community called the Concerned Citizens of Tillery. AR: I have a friend who works there, Chris Stewart.

2 2 LW: Chris came by doing some of the same stuff you were doing. And we had a battle trying keep our local school open, and we were successful in keeping it open for another year, but because of the declining young people in the community, it was eventually closed. There were a lot of older people in the community so we decided that we would start a senior group. AR: A singing group? LW: A seniors group. And they named themselves the Open-Minded Seniors and they are very open-minded. Cindy Arnold, the person who started this organization CWEA, knew Gary, and when she was in a position to hire people part-time for this job, she sent applications to different places and she sent one to Gary, who was at the time the director of the Concerned Citizens of Tillery. He gave me the application and told me to fill it out, and I told him I couldn't do that kind of work, and he said, "You're already doing that kind of work, you are just not getting paid for it." And I said, "Okay, I'll give it a try." So I applied for the position and I got it. AR: And what's the position called? LW: Well, I was a community organizer then and now my name has changed to a Work Place Advocacy Coordinator. Same work, different name. AR: Right. LW: I worked in factories myself and I knew how people were treated. They were not treated like Perdue workers, of course, not that bad, but I ended up quitting a job myself once. So I think that-and being independent-growing up on a farm, that was my,

3 3 you know, my father's farm I think that's what made me independent and not as fearful as a lot of people because - because of, you know, my background. So I have never been afraid to talk up for myself or to quit a job and not have the fear of where is my next meal coming from. So I guess I was born a fighter; I'm not sure, [laughs] We started out by knocking on doors when I finally got the job with CWEA. We had to go and ask people to let us help them, because they were afraid and really they didn't know anything about us. They hadn't heard about us; our name had not been widespread. So we would go door to door knocking, to let people know that we were here for them. And if there was anything that we could do, to let us know. At first we didn't get a lot of response, but as time went on, this was eight years ago about nine years ago as time went on people became more and more involved in what we were doing they would come forward and start talking. But usually it was after they had been disabled that they would come and ask for our help. [Pause] But I would tell them if you'll fight, I'll fight along with you. I'll fight as long as you fight. There's nothing I can actually do, it's up to you as the worker to decide what you want to do and how you want to do it. And I can advise you, but that's all I can do and I'll be with you 100 percent. So, does that answer your question? AR: Yeah. So then how long have you been with the organization? LW: About nine years. AR: What year was the organization founded? LW: About 1984.

4 AR: '84? So it's been around about 11 years. LW: Yes. AR: Cindy Arnold, did she start the organization? LW: Cindy Arnold and Beulah Sharp [?], yes, they started the organization. AR: Are they from around here? LW: Beulah Sharp was from around here but Cindy was from Philadelphia, I think. AR: Was she African American or white? LW: She was white and Beulah Sharp was black, yeah AR: Do you know much about how it started up? LW: Well, it started by-the first real problem she had was with a factory-let me see, what kind of factory was it a sock factory, I think, in Scotland Neck. And the women were being treated differently from the men; they were not getting vacation pay, pregnancy leave and stuff like that. And they fought and won that case, you know, they got a lot of benefits for the women that they were not getting. So that was the very beginning of an actual problem that they had. AR: Hmm. LW: In the beginning I think what she really wanted was, I think the name will say it, economic alternatives. Rather than working in these factories, start your own business. Then we were successful in getting a sewing factory, it was called "Sew and Sew", but it just took too much time and energy, money, you know, the whole works. It was just too much. And then it was decided that because of the problems that was going

5 5 on in the factories that was already here, maybe it would be better to just help the workers solve the problems that already exist rather than trying to create alternatives to, you know, to the work places that was already here. Just try to make them a better place to work. AR: Rather than other industries? LW: Right. AR: What was the name of that sock factory, do you know? Is that still in operation? LW: Well, don't ask me right now, I can tell you later. AR: That's fine. We can come back to it. So it started around that particular factory and then was it Beulah Sharp or was it Cindy Arnold who kind of knew about that factory? LW: It was Cindy-Beulah Sharp died not too long after the organization got started. [Pause] She was real young when she passed, went on. AR: So then from that point, how did things develop to where they are now? LW: Well, Cindy continued to go door to door and she would run up with people who would talk at home but nowhere else. AR: Interesting. LW: Right. So she found out that there were problems at Perdue and at other places, and she--. It took lot of talking and begging and pleading to get workers to do something about what was going on, but eventually she got a few and it just-as years went by, you know, more people started to get help from us.

6 6 AR: What's a typical work day with. How do you all spend your day? Because, you know, over lunch you all were talking about filling out forms and reports and whatnot, what are the kinds of things you'll do in a day here? LW: We do a Form 18 on a worker, and that reports that injury to the North Carolina Industrial Commission in Raleigh, even though the company that they work for is supposed to report it, but in most cases they don't. And you have to. The Form 18 is the worker's responsibility to get into Raleigh and that is how you get worker's compensation; that determines when you were injured, the amount of money you make a week, so that would determine how much worker's comp you will receive. And you have to get a lawyer for the workers in order to get the worker's comp benefits. They have to fight for them. Like I said, a lot of the worker's are disabled when they come to us, so we do disability forms for them, too. We contact lawyers and doctors, make appointments; and if they don't have transportation, or if they don't have transportation we will supply transportation. If they have transportation and don't know how to get to the doctor's office or the lawyer's office, we will send a person with them, and not necessarily a staff person, could be a person that we have already helped to get their disability. AR: And are they volunteering to help out, that kind of thing? LW: Hmm. AR: Yeah, yeah. That's good. LW: Yes. AR: That must be nice in a way that then they're getting support also from people who have been in that same situation.

7 7 LW: Yes. We have support group meetings where workers who have already been through our program will talk to workers that's coming into it, and they relate to each other. It's a whole lot better than talking to me because I've never worked at Perdue. The workers that have been through our program can relate to what they are going through. They said, "Well, I understand what you're going through." Even though I say it, I don't really understand what they're going through because I haven't been through it. AR: But you've worked in other factories. LW: Right. AR: What kind of other factories did you work in? LW: I worked in a yarn factory and I worked in a casket factory. AR: Wow. LW: That was local, right in my community. AR: Where was the yarn factory? LW: That was about 20 miles away in Whitakers. AR: What were the names of those places, do you remember? LW: The yarn factory was named American Enka. AR: American-? LW: Enka, E-N-K-A. And I worked in another yarn factory in Tarboro and that was named Polylok. AR: Polylok? LW: P-O-L-Y-L-O-K. AR: Two words or one?

8 8 LW: One. AR: And then you said the casket place was? LW: Tillery Casket Manufacturers. AR: So it's not as though you were a stranger to factory work yourself. LW: No. I was a stranger to chicken processing [laughter]. And things were not as bad when I was working in a factory. AR: How were they different? LW: We didn't have to work as hard as chicken processing plant workers do, at least I don't think so. AR: Why do you suppose-why do you suppose that it's different? LW: Well, I'm not sure but I just think that processing chickens is a different type of job; it's a hard job anyway, and by them speeding up the line, it just makes it that much worse. AR: Yeah, so line speed is one of the problems that you all are dealing with? LW: That is the main problem, the line speed. AR: What is that line speed currently in the Perdue plant? LW: They are saying that they do anywhere from 90 to 102 birds a minute. AR: Wow. LW: And that's a lot of bird. AR: Wow. LW: So that means that they are constantly doing whatever they do. AR: It's a lot of repetitive motion.

9 9 LW: Right-with dull knives and dull scissors, whatever. AR: What kinds of conditions are they developing with that kind of line speed? LW: Carpal tunnel syndrome, tendinitis, and because of in some departments it's cold-they are getting arthritis, bursitis. AR:-Yeah, Liz mentioned earlier about how there was even a case of gangrene that one woman had in her foot. LW: Yes. AR: Boy that's really rough. [Pause] So when folks come in, a work place advocacy case coordinator, what are the different areas you're working on with them? You come in and help-you fill out-help them fill out the Form 18 and--. LW: Well, you do a lot of counseling too. You have to listen. They need to talk so you may think you'll spend a half an hour with this person and you end up spending an hour, hour and a half, because they will talk for while and they'll cry for a while and you cry with them. So it ends up being a long process, you know, time-wise. AR: How many folks - how many workers will you see in a day in usually? LW: It varies. There are days when maybe two people will call, and then there are days when maybe seven people will come in. We sent out a newsletter a few months ago and people started pouring in. And after this strike, people are pouring in again. So somebody comes in all the time, either come in or call, or we set up an appointment for them, you know, every day, but there are times when it's more than usual come in. AR: You mentioned about the strike and Liz had given me some articles on that. Can you talk a little bit about the strike and how and why it developed?

10 10 LW: People are tired. Lot of people that was on strike have been there ten or fifteen years, and if you can last that long as Perdue, you are extremely good. And I'm sure that they're tired of what they have been taking, and all it took was for one or two to decide to walk out. And after those men walked out, it made it easier aggravate the women, and they would walk out as well. So it was a long time coming, but it finally happened. AR: And this was back when, April 11, is that right? LW: Hmm. AR: Have there been other strikes there before at that plant, the Lewiston plant. LW: Yeah. There has been one before but not quite as many people as it was this time. AR: How many folks was it this time because it sounded like it was different numbers, according to the articles. LW: I'd say it was more like 200, 250,1 don't know because there were a lot of people there at one time. And maybe three would leave and two would come, five would leave, six would come up so it was they were going and coming. Some were going home, some were back into the plant, some was coming from home, some so I really don't know. AR: Now this strike had something to do with their hours being cut, isn't that right, the sanitation workers? LW: Yes, sanitation workers' hours was being cut, and they were saying that even though they would be getting a 20 cent raise, their take home pay would be less. And they could not afford to take home less money.

11 11 AR: So then they got a raise, but then they got their hours cut at the same time? LW: Right, but it's my understanding that they got their hours back, but it was not in writing so who knows how long they will have their hours back. AR: So they were just told it's okay you can come back and-. LW: And we'll give you your hours. AR: Give you your hours. LW: So maybe they gave them their hours for a couple of weeks, you know, and then who knows what will happen. AR: And what kind of wages were they getting before and after. LW: I think it was something like $6.65 an hour or $6.75 if you're working second shift. AR: Okay. So then they~if they were getting a 20 cent raise, they'd be getting a up to 7 dollars an hour, but then they would lose what, it was something like two and a half hours a week? LW: Well, I think that Sanitation Department was making $6.75 an hour because they were working second shift so 20 more cents would put them close to 8 dollars close to 7 dollars. AR: Yeah. [Pause] Do you think that this was a victory, is it a short-term victory, a long-term victory? How do you feel about the strike? LW: It's hard to explain why I say it's both a long -term and short-term. I think it's going to be-i think it will help because people will look back and say, well, we did it one time we can do it again, and then they'll probably strike again, you know, if not strike

12 12 at least speak out for them self a little bit more. Short term, I'm sure they got their hours, Sanitation got their hours back. I just don't know for how long. AR: Yeah. Have you noticed a difference in the spirits of the workers that you're working in response to this. LW: They seem to be more like, "I'm now fired up, you know. And I'm tired, I'm ready to do something and I don't want to keep putting up with what I've been putting up with." AR: Yeah. Have you all been providing support with this whole process? I mean -? LW: Yes. AR: Have you had a role in it in some way as an organization? LW: Just as support. We're there for support. If you need us we are there. We've had people to come in and we've done discrimination forms for them because they were discriminated against. They were sent home for three days because they had they worked from a quarter of nine, and at 8:00 at night they were still working and they walked off the line. They were already in pain. They had children to go home to take care of, to cook for, you know, prepare to come back to work the next day. But when they came back to work the next day, they were given three days home. In most cases, they ended up being fired. AR: They ended up being fired-. LW: After those three days home. AR: After the three days home. Wait, I think I lost you on that. So they were given the three days home, weren't they?

13 13 LW: Yes. AR: But then they were fired afterwards. LW: No, not yet, see the three days won't be until after today. AR: Oh, hmm. LW: They should go back to work tomorrow and I'm saying in most cases they end up firing those people. When they send them home for three days, when they go back they tell them we don't need you anymore. AR: Uh-huh. So because they complained or because? LW: Because they walked off the line. AR: Because they walked off the line, yeah. So then how long did this strike last then, is it just recently--? LW: Two days. Monday and Tuesday. AR: Wow. So now the big question is what will happen when they go back, I guess? Right? LW: Yeah, my personal opinion I think they will get rid of them one-by-one. AR: What kinds of claims, discrimination claims are you all handling those related to the strike. Are they race related or? LW: Just related to them getting three days home without a due cause, reprimanding them for standing up for their rights. AR: Okay, so discrimination because they spoke out on the job, basically. LW: Right. AR: Wow. So the three days home then is without pay?

14 14 LW: Right. AR: It's not like it's a vacation. LW: That's right. AR: And who all was sent home, then? Was it only the strikers or others as well? LW: Well, these women did go out during the strike, but their reason - the reason that was given them was because they walked off of the line before they had finished their work. AR: Okay. So in a way then they were being punished for having walked off the line. LW: Right. AR: Yeah, wow. How long does it take for those claims to get handled, I mean, these discrimination claims? LW: They don't handle them. We just report it. Nothing is done. AR: You report it down to the Commission? LW: Right, it's just put on record. It's just reported that this happened, but they don't do anything about it. AR: What do you think about the North Carolina Industrial Commission? Do they do their job? LW: They stink. AR: [Laughs] I've heard similar things elsewhere. LW: They need to hang up their hats, go home and stay there, for all the good that they're doing for the workers.

15 15 AR: Why do you think they stink, I mean, why aren't they doing more for the workers? LW: Because they don't care all they care about is getting their little paycheck. They do not care about other people other than their people, I guess, their family or whatever. They don't care and this being black folks-who cares about black folks? AR: Is most sort of the industrial Commission white? LW: Yes. AR: Hmm-hmm. [Train in background.] LW: Who lie for Perdue and other companies, I guess, but since Perdue is the one that we deal with mostly, I know they lie for them. AR: So when you say "lie for them," what do you mean? LW: Well, Mary Carol Lewis is saying that that Perdue has made great changes; the workers that work there say they are not. They're not changing; they're still having carpal tunnel syndrome. They're still coming out with back injuries, so what have Perdue done that was different than before? But she says she went in and for a week and she observed and she talked to workers, but she talked to workers in front of management and if you were a worker would you not say what the management want you to say, "Oh, I'm not having any problems. Oh, my hands don't hurt." That's exactly what they were saying when in reality they were hurting. But the ones who would speak out, management wouldn't take them-take Mary Carol Lewis-to the women who speak out and tell the truth. So they hand-picked the people they talked to. AR: So then - what you're saying is that the Commission then - do you think they intentionally support Perdue?

16 16 LW: Yes. AR: What do you think the motives are for them to do that? LW: They don't care. It don't hurt them. AR: Yeah. LW: It's just like the doctors don't care, and they're supposed to care about people. AR: Right. LW: They act like they care a whole lot about Perdue because it's where money is coming from. AR: You were talking about at lunch about having workers go to get checked out and that the doctors wouldn't call it carpal tunnel, right? LW: That's right. And in a lot of cases they say, "I don't see anything wrong with you. Go on back to work." Now, we had a girl a woman who had surgery on her hand on the 8*-on the 7 th ~of March of last year. On the 10 th she went back to work. The doctor sent her back to work on her tenth. Now what kind of a doctor is that. AR: Now where are these doctors located? LW: Ahoskie, Williamston, Greenville, all around. AR: But this wasn't a doctor in a wellness center that you're talking about. LW: Yes, it was. AR: It was. Oh. So what exactly is the Wellness Center? Is that on the grounds of the-? LW: It's a kill me not [laughs]. Yes, it's on the grounds.

17 17 AR: It's on the grounds. LW: Yes, yes. AR: So then what doctors do the workers go to first, if they have a condition where do they go? LW: They're on the grounds. AR: They're on the grounds. LW: They go to the nurse first. AR: The nurse first. LW: And then she will set up an appointment with the killers on-. [Laughs] Well, that's what they are; they're murderers. AR: At is the Wellness Center. LW: At the Wellness Center. Now they can go to their own doctor if they want to, but Perdue will not pay the bill. The insurance will not pay the bill. AR: So even their so even the insurance won't pay the bill. LW: Perdue own their own insurance company. AR: Must get hard to get diagnosed for carpal tunnel then, huh? LW: Hmm-huh. AR: Now have you all been able to get diagnoses for that? Isn't that the critical thing for someone to get? LW: Yes, we would send people to Virginia and Durham and Raleigh and some doctors in Greenville. But we have sent so many to the doctors I think, see, I don't know what happens. Maybe Perdue talked to the doctors or something, then the doctor

18 18 don't want to have any problems with Perdue, so they stop being the good doctor that they used to be. AR: Wow. So you've seen changes then? LW: Changes in the doctors, yes. AR: Hmm. LW: They don't want to get involved or whatever. I don't know why they change. AR: And this is recent or-? LW: The whole while. So we are constantly looking for new doctors who will not bow down to Perdue. AR: So that's what you all were meaning today when we talked at lunch. I guess I was telling you about the screening clinics with the Brown Lung Association, and you were saying you all had run out of doctors. That's what you meant is that those doctors. LW: Yes, plus we used to do a hand screening clinic and. AR: A hand screening clinic? LW: Yes, but there are other organizations now who do hand screening clinics too. And evidently they were using the same doctors, so the doctors were tied up, plus the doctors have their own practice, you know. So we just don't have doctors to do the hand screening clinics like we used to. AR: So who would do the other hand screening clinics? Was that Perdue or-i mean were there other when you said the other? LW: They were other organizations.

19 19 AR: Other organizations. I see. LW: Yes. AR: What kinds of organizations are those? LW: Similar to what we do. They work with workers who have problems on the jobs. AR: Okay. So similar occupational safety organizations. LW: Right. AR: Got you [Pause]. So then what are some of the other challenges that you all face. It's sounds like the medical diagnoses is one of the big challenges. What are the other challenges you all face? LW: The lawyers, we have to go out of town to get lawyers. AR: And why is that? LW: Nobody want to go against Perdue. AR: So how far do you have to go? LW: Raleigh and Durham. We have one lawyer in Greenville and one in Wilson and one in Rich Square. But everybody else is out of town, way out of town. You know like Durham, two or three hours away. AR: Does that present logistical problems with all the travel? I mean, that's got to make it really hard. LW: It really is hard. AR: Yeah. LW: But we do have volunteers now who will help transport people who don't have their own transportation. A lot of the people do have their transportation, but in

20 20 some instances if after they're out of work for a while, there's no money coming in to the household. So they lose their house or they lose their car, or maybe they would be able to keep the car but they can't the pay the insurance. So there's always something. AR: Wow. LW: You know, so there's always something. AR: Wow, that's rough. [Pause] What kinds of lawyers and doctors do you find are willing to take the cases? I mean, is there a particular group, or is it just a case by case basis? Like are public health doctors a little more accessible or interested. LW: No, I guess they're activists. I guess that they're just fighters like we are. AR: Hmm. What about the lawyers? LW: [Laughs] I think it's the same, that they are just people who are not afraid to stand up for what's right. AR: Yeah. We were talking about, that at lunch about you know, people's fear about standing up and whatnot and. LW: Right. I know there was one doctor here in Ahoskie who was a good doctor. He diagnosed patients honestly and truly and well, then all of a sudden he was no longer here. He was in Virginia somewhere. Nobody knows why. AR: Wow. What do you think? LW: He had an article in the paper about Perdue, I think Perdue sent him away. AR: How do you think they could have done that I mean-? LW: I really don't know but, I'm saying a threat of some sort, but I don't know that.

21 21 AR: Wow. Now are most of the workers Liz was saying that the large proportion of them are African American that work at Perdue. LW: Yes. AR: What about like the lawyers and doctors are they white or are they African American. LW: Both. AR: But it's more the issue that they're activists or that they're concerned worker safety, that kind of thing. LW: Right. AR: Yeah. What other types things do you all face. Doctors, lawyers, you've talked about the Industrial Commission. LW: Well, a lot of people need counseling. They need mental health. In some cases, they go willingly, and some, "Well, I ain't crazy." So we need to get them to understand that you don't have to be crazy to go to mental health. And a lot of cases that's the only way they get a disability. They're saying that they are retarded, and I think that's a shame. That you have to be retarded in order to get what's rightfully yours. AR: Do all could a lot of counseling here with your work? LW: It's not intentional but we have to. [Laughter] LW: Well, like one worker I was talking to and I was filling out a form for her, and there was particular question, "Have you been out of work for more than three days?" And they wanted the date and the girl just broke right down and cried. She was the same one who had had the operation and was sent back to work within three days. And it hurt her to have to do that. It hurt her inside-not the incision itself that hurt so bad. It was

22 22 the fact that a doctor cared no more for her than that. When she knew that he knew that she had not healed, and he's going to make her go in and wiggle this arm in the same motion as if nothing was wrong with it. Not only did it-still had carpal tunnel in it, but the stitches were still there. Could very much become inflamed and get on the meat that you got to eat. But the doctor had no concern about that. Sure hope he eat meat and he got to cope with [?] some of that infected chicken. [Laughter. AR checks tape remaining.] AR: What are the ways in which you try and help folks beyond just the forms and all that. Because Liz talked about that a lot, about how she is really trying to help people beyond--. You know there's light bills and food-. That it's not like it's just the work condition or the work setting. LW: Right. Once they come out of work, a lot of these women are head of household, so when they quit work there's no money coming in. You've got to wait at least 45 days to get money from social services if you have children. A lot of them don't have children; they can't get social services. So they get cut off notices for the lights or they get notice that they're going to be put out of their house, you know, if they don't pay the rent or whatever. So we do fund raisers to try to raise monies to help these workers with the light bill and their rent, whatever, you know, buy food whatever their needs are. AR: Right. What kinds of fund raisers do you all do? LW: Well we do gospel programs, gospel singing programs. AR: Great. LW: We do talent shows, and we do we sell dinners. We sell candy. We raffle off tickets sometimes. Whatever.

23 23 AR: What kind of gospel shows? LW: Oh, it's just we get a lot of different group, gospel groups, to come in and sing. AR: Are they local groups. LW: Yes, mostly local. But when you say local, to us thirty miles away is local for us, you know. AR: Right, yeah. So nearby. Any specifically good groups? Because I've heard groups in the Durham/Raleigh area, so we're always interested in hearing about groups that are especially good. LW: Well, they're all good. AR: Yeah, great. [Pause] So what what are the parts of your job that you like? I mean, it's clear that there's a lot that's really hard about the work that you're doing. How do you manage to do it? You help folks out, you're up against all these challenges all the time. LW: I love a challenge. I love a good challenge. One of my hobbies, when I had the time, was putting puzzles together. And the more pieces there was, the better I liked it, because of the challenge. So I guess that's why I do it; it's a challenge. AR: Are there other kinds of activism that you did before the CWEA? I mean, were there other ways in which you were active in the community? LW: No. I worked with the youth a little bit and the senior citizens but well, yes I did. We used to go to board meetings, school board meetings that was when we were trying to keep the school open and use to do interrupt school board meetings. We wouldn't let them have a school district board meeting. I loved it. [Laughter]

24 24 AR: You liked to interrupt? What kind of stuff would you get to say? LW: Nothing. Everybody shouting at the same time, just keep up a fuss. AR: Just keep what? LW: Keep fuss.. AR: Keep fussing? LW: Keep them from having. Just sing or chant or whatever, just to keep them from having their meeting. Because they wouldn't put us on the agenda, so we could speak about what we wanted to speak about. AR: Now was this when you were in Halifax County. LW: Hmm- AR: The school, is that part of the Tillery community? LW: Yes. AR: So what happened with that school? LW: They closed it. AR: They did close it. What were the reasons for closing it? LW: Well, actually there were not enough children. There was a time when it's over 300 kids go to that school. And when they talked about closing, it was just a little over a hundred. Because people in that community, it was a farm community, but people lost their farms. So folks moved away; they went to New York, Philadelphia, Washington, different places so, the young people were not there anymore. And the older people, as they got-as they retired, well, there were a few that never left-but then the ones who left when they retired they would come back to Tillery. So it was a lot more senior citizens than youth in the area.

25 25 AR: How long did you all fight to try and keep the school. LW: Just a little over a year. AR: Yeah. Was it a-what size of group were you all trying to fight it-how many people were working on it? LW: Well, I belong to this little group called the Halifax County Black Caucus, and I really don't know how many members there were. Maybe 50,1 don't know. AR: Yeah. [Pause] How did you feel about that campaign after the school closed? LW: Well I really I really understood why they closed, because there were not enough children. But they could have had a K-5 or something, because that was where everybody--. That's where we met, that's where the kids had their plays. They had their little ball games and stuff like that. And there was nothing now. Now we have to leave the community to go to a school outside of our community, and we did not feel ownership. It did not feel like a part of us, you know. So it would have made us feel a lot better if we could have kept our school in our community. AR: Right. You're talking about ownership, when you talked earlier about your farm, your family's farm, what kind of impact did that have on you do you think growing up, that your father owned the farm and that that was your land and your house? LW: I think that's what made me independent and able to speak out because we had land. We grew our own vegetables. We grew hogs and cows, so we had beef, we had pork. We had the corn meal; we had everything that we needed to survive. END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

26 26 START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B LOLA WILLIAMS APRIL 20, 1995 AR: Continuing the interview with Ms. Lola Williams. So you were saying that with your father's farm, that you were more self sufficient really because--. LW: Right. AR: Growing your own vegetables and knowing that you couldn't be thrown off the land or whatever. [Pause] When you were growing up, was your mother or women in your community in any way an inspiration for you around trying to, you know, to speak out? How did you learn to be a rabble rouser? [Laughter] because they keep saying what a rabble rouser you are. LW: I really don't know. I don't think I had any one particular person that inspired me. It was just something that was inside of me and it had to come out. It was born in me; I don't know why. AR: Hmm-hmm. LW: And out of my family, I am the only one. AR: Hmm. Wow. LW: I mean, my brothers will speak up for themselves but they're not all that rowdy, you know. They don't like all the stuff I like. I don't know. AR: And you were one of how many kids? LW: Six. I had five brothers. AR: Where were you in that group? LW: Well, I was the baby for six years and then along came a brother, so I'm next to the baby.

27 27 AR: Yeah. So why is it that you think you're not afraid, because I think that fear thing is important. Because that's part of why so many people don't speak out. LW: I still cannot explain it. I don't know. AR: Hmm-hmm. LW: It's just me. AR: Hmm, yeah. LW: I never had sense enough to be scared, is all I know. AR: You never had what? LW: Sense enough to be scared. AR: Sense enough to be scared. That's funny, yeah. Is, I mean, with your work here, do you feel you're in danger in any way because you do speak out? LW: No. AR: Because Liz said a family member had expressed concern or something like that. You don't feel that? LW: No. AR: Yeah. LW: If anything was to happen to us, naturally Perdue would be the first people that they would look at, so why would he mess with us? AR: Right, yeah. LW: Not that anybody would do anything about it, but at least they would be suspect. AR: How do folks respond to you all in the community. Or how does your family feel about your work?

28 28 LW: They feel like I'm doing the right thing. It's said that folks won't speak up for themselves then you speak for them. I say, well I can't do that, I can tell them what to say, you know. [?] But as long as I'm helping people, they can say whatever they want. No matter with me. And that's just me. I'm going to do my thing, whether you like it or not. [Laughter] AR: That's right. What about your kids, do any of your kids ever get involved in different types of activism? LW: No, no. AR: What sort of work do they do? LW: One is-he works-the oldest he works in the Court system in Alaska. AR: In Alaska. LW: One works in the demolition business in Baltimore, MD. And my daughter works as a home health and hospice aid, and my nineteen year old who just left home. Phew! AR: [Laughter] LW: He works in a factory, he's a factory worker right now. AR: Whereabouts? LW: In Greensboro, North Carolina. AR: What kind of factory work does he do? LW: Actually, he just went to work day before yesterday. I don't know. AR: Oh, wow! LW: I do not know.

29 29 AR: You just know it's a factory somewhere in Greensboro. LW: All I know he's out of my hair. He's working-who cares. AR: Got a job. So is that four kids then that you have? LW: Yes. Yes. AR: Any grandchildren? LW: Well, I don't claim to have any grandchildren. I call them my nieces and nephews. I have seven. AR: Wow! LW: I have a son with three daughters, and my daughter has three boys and a girl. But they call me Aunt Lola. Because I'm not a grandma. [Laughter] AR: Now are you officially not a grandma? You have chosen not to be a grandma. LW: I chose not to be a grandmother. Grandmothers sit home and spoil their grandchildren, and I still have to work. So I do not take care of grandchildren. AR: Would you want for them, for your children or grandchildren, to do this kind of work? LW: Only if it make them happy. Now my daughter loves what she's doing. She tries to be an activist; she wants to be. Because I was telling her about this older person who lives not far from me. And the person that was coming into the home to take care of her was not doing a real good job. First thing she said, "Get her out of there, mother, get her out of there." [Laughter] I don't have any power to get her out. Because she love older people, and she love to take she pampers them and combs their hair and talk to them real nice. And she expect everybody else to do the same. She do a lot of things for

30 30 them that her job does not call for her to do, but she will do it anyway, because that's just the way she is. So she wanted me to get her out of there. I can't do it. AR: So what do they think about your work? What do they think about what you do? LW: Oh, they think I'm crazy. AR: [Laughs] No why do they think you're crazy? LW: They really admire what I do, that I have the guts to stand up and do what I'm doing. They really admire me for doing it. But I don't think that it's nothing that they would want to do. It's too-it's an all day and night job, and I don't think they want to--. They want a nine to five. When it's time to go home, they go home, forget about your job. And I don't do that. I take my job home with me. AR: Yeah. Do you end up working at home a lot? LW: I used to, but the majority of the people that we work with are from this area. So I'm long distance, you know, my telephone number is long distance. So a lot of workers don't call me. I'm so glad I'm long distance. [Whispering] AR: Because Liz mentioned get phone calls. LW: Right, because she's local. AR: Right, yeah. LW: And a lot of people call low Lois too. So I'm far away. AR: Sounds like you get a little bit of a break then from your work. LW: Yes, even though I do get some phone calls, it's just not as many as they get. AR: How do you keep from getting burn out I know a lot of the folks I've talked to have talked about just getting worn out.

31 31 LW: Well, since I'm the oldest, I told you that Liz was the executive director but I was the boss. I've been trying to teach her that you cannot work constantly. I've been through it, so I know. So now she gives us a day off every now and then, like we try to take day once a month. But if we can't take that day, something comes up, nobody complains; you just work anyway. So when they come and you can't get a break and take the day off, but I had to push her in order to do it. Because she's young, energetic, and she went into it full force, just like I did. But I told her, Liz, I been there. A body need to rest. And I said I be fighting for twenty years and things are the same now as they were then. Don't think you can change the world, because you can't do it. I wish I could, if fighting had anything to do with it I would have. But that's not changing. People have to fight for themselves. They have to make the change. So she kind of listens. AR: So if you can't change the world what can you change? LW: I've been trying to change people, but. We change the people but it's after it's too late after they've already become disabled. To me it's too late. That's why I say it's too late. If you're in pain for the rest of your life, and you're only twenty-eight years old and some younger than that, some older it's too late. AR: Yeah, yeah. LW: I want you to walk out now or say I'm not going to do this and everybody join together. That's what I want. The union man is up stairs, he want to get a you know in, and I'm saying you are the union. AR: You are the union meaning? LW: If you pull together, you can get anything you want. The union don't have to be there.

32 32 AR: Oh, so you mean the union doesn't have to be in the plant if the workers are united? Is that what you're saying? LW: Right, right. AR: How do you feel about unions, do you think they do the jobs-? LW: The majority of them don't, all they want is that five dollars a week. AR: What do you think is the best thing for the Perdue workers, then, at Lewiston? LW: I guess a union because they're not going to pull together. But they may not even pull together enough to get a union in. AR: So in a way then, if they could form their own union amongst themselves that then. LW: That it would be a lot better. AR: Have you had-what kinds of experiences have you had with unions in the past? LW: I never worked in a union. AR: So most sort of those factories, the factories that you worked at--. LW: Nonunion. AR: Did you speak out at those other factories that you worked at in your work there? LW: I sure did. AR: Silly question? [Laughter] LW: Silly question.

33 33 AR: What kinds of things did you speak out against? LW: Well, there was one particular time when I cut my thumb with a hook blade razor. AR: With a hook blade razor. LW: Yes. And there was another time when I cut my thumb with a hook blade razor; it was twice. And I put the hook blade razor in my hip pocket, and I told my supervisor's supervisor that I was not going to use it anymore. He say, "You want me to show you how to use it the correct way?" I said, "No thank you because I still ain't going to use it and I never used it again for the whole while I was there. If I got yam wrapped around my spindle, I put a flag on it and let the maintenance man come and get it off. I never used it again. AR: How did they respond to you after you said that. LW: Treated me with the utmost respect. AR: He treated you with the utmost respect? LW: Yes, he winked at me and shook his head. [Laughter] But I was good at what I was doing. And there were special tubes of yam that he didn't want nobody to do but me. AR: So you already had kind of a preferential status, it sounds like anyway, as a worker there? LW: Yes, but I talked up to him before I got that far. [Laughter] I quit, I quit that. The job before that one I quit, because if you had bad yam they normally assign you a half a machine. I had bad yam they assigned me ten machines. And all I had to do was pretend I was working and kept my mouth shut and everything would have been all right.

34 34 But see I didn't want him to think that I would attempt to run ten machines of bad yam, because if he give it to me today, he was going to give it to me again tomorrow. And I told him I was not going to run it. You take this yarn and you ram [?] it, and I walked out. AR: How did you feel after you walked out? LW: I felt like an old rooster. [Laughter] I felt good. I had four children, I was the head of the household. I had no idea where my next meal was coming well, yes I did. I mean, I didn't worry about those things. My house, my car, my food it didn't-it didn't cross my mind. AR: Now why didn't you worry? Because lots of people would worry about that, lots of people would not walk out. LW: I guess I'm crazy, I don't know. [Laughter] I don't know. But it was after then that I went to the community college and I got an associate degree. AR: What community college is that? LW: Halifax Community College. And I got an associate degree in social services. Not that it has done me any good. AR: Well, but here you are. It's all part of it. LW: Yeah. AR: Social services, yeah. My mom is a social worker. LW: I really enjoyed going back to school I've always loved going to school. But I really enjoyed that. AR: You said you started out going to college a number of years before.

35 35 LW: Right but this was many years later. I was old by then. I graduated in AR: 1980, great, wow. Would you what was the college that you had started out trying to go too? LW: Central [North Carolina Central University]. AR: What happened that that didn't-? LW: Because I found out that my daddy really couldn't forward to send me to school, and he tried to do everything that he could for his children. He tried hard. And it was not like him to say, "Well, I just can't afford to send you." He just insisted that if that was what I wanted to do he was going to try to do it. But I figured out that he couldn't afford to send me so. And at that time we didn't know about the grants, the loans and stuff like that, so I just dropped out. AR: What year would that have been that you were trying to go there. LW: '59. AR: '59. Wow. LW: Because I graduate from high school in AR: Did you go to high school around here or at Tillery, I guess, or Scotland? LW: Scotland Neck. It was called Brawley high school. And I'm getting ready to loose it. AR: Is there anything else you wanted to do to add? LW: Not right now. Might think of something right.

36 36 AR: Well, after I got to bed. I guess my last two questions you can be as quick as you need to be-what does it take to be an effective activist. What does it take to do your job well? LW: A lot of energy, youth. I'm getting too old for this. And no fear. AR: No fear. LW: You can not have fear and do this job. AR: What enables you to keep going to just hang in there? [Train sounds in background.] LW: Because I keep hearing workers come in and saying Perdue did this and Perdue said that. And it just make me so mad until I don't know where the energy come from. It just sprouts out. It just bugs me, makes me so mad. If you could hear the things--. Like the girl said that they told them, they're going to have some meetings about the union, and if you don't come to the meeting they're going to fine them fifty dollars. AR: I'm going to let the train go by here. I guess we're getting our sign that it's time to stop. So the workers were going to get fired for going to a meeting? LW: For not coming to Perdue's meeting about the union. AR: And what kind of a meeting was Perdue holding about the union. LW: They were going to tell them that all they want is your money. AR: Okay. LW: They're not going to help you any and all this kind of stuff. AR: So they're going to fine - how can they fine the workers legally? LW: They can't. But like I said these women are uneducated, under educated. They don't-.

37 37 AR: They don't know their rights? Well, I think we should head off, because I don't want to wear you out too bad not to mention the train is like. LW: Well, I've done a lot of talking but this is the most I've done since I had surgery. AR: Wow. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time because everybody leams from all the work that everybody else is doing. And I just you all are doing really important work here. It's really good. LW: I think so. AR: Good, great. We're going to end the interview here with Ms. Lola Williams and we're here at the Center for Women's Economic Alternatives, here in Ahoskie, North Carolina. Today's date is April 20, 1995 and this is tape number LW.l And this is for the Southern Oral History Program's Women's Leadership Project and that's it. END OF INTERVIEW