TEXAS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES LEGISLATURE SELECT COMMITTEE ON VOTER IDENTIFICATION MARCH 1, (VOLUME I of II)

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1 PL0 Case Case :-cv-00-rmc-dst-rlw :-cv-00 Document 0- Document Filed - in TXSD Filed on // 0// Page of of // :-cv-00 TEXAS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ND LEGISLATURE SELECT COMMITTEE ON VOTER IDENTIFICATION AND VOTER FRAUD HEARING MARCH, (VOLUME I of II) Transcribed by Amy C. Kofron CSR April, Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

2 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW0- Document Filed - in TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, WITNESS NAME PAGE TESTIMONY BEGINS CHRIS WARD... B.R. SKIPPER WALLCE... DAVID CARTER... WILLIAM BUTCH MARSALIS... CYNTHIA LE PORI... ROBERT GREEN... GARY BLEDSOE... COLLEEN VERA... BRIAN KEMP... LUIS FIGUEROA... THOMAS WHEELER... Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

3 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW0- Document Filed - in TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Okay. We have a quorum, so we'll begin. I'd like to welcome everyone here to the hearing today. The committee will use the following procedures today to insure an effective and productive hearing that respects the time and efforts of those wishing to testify. Invited witnesses, which I believe there are ten of, five from each side of the issue, will be allowed to provide an opening presentation and will be limited to ten minutes and then stand before the committee to answer any questions that committee members may have. Citizens wishing to testify in the public portion of the hearing will be limited to three minutes of testimony, with additional time, of course, for the members of the committee to question these witnesses. The committee has invited three witnesses to participate through Skype, which is a software application that allows audio and video between two parties. This is an interesting way that the three expert witnesses, at the request of Vice Chairman Veasey, to allow them to testify if they get their witness affirmations and things in. We will now lay out Senate Bill. Then we'll have Representative Harless lay out and explain her substitutes. So Representative Harless' office has made copies available to the public in the back of the room. There should be copies of the committee substitute by Representative Harless on Senate Bill. All testimony before the committee will be on Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

4 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW0- Document Filed - in TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page 0of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, Representative Harless' committee substitute to Senate Bill. Okay. We left a member off on the roll call, so the clerk would like to re-call the roll. THE CLERK: Bonnen? MR. BONNEN: Here. THE CLERK: Veasey? Hilderbran? Hochberg? MR. HOCHBERG: Here. THE CLERK: Pena? MR. PENA: Here. THE CLERK: Taylor? Gutierrez? Harless? MS. HARLESS: Here. THE CLERK: Aliseda? MR. ALISEDA: Here. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Okay. Thank you. There is still a quorum. Okay. So the Chair lays out Senate Bill by Senator Fraser. Representative Harless offers up a committee substitute to Senate Bill, and the chair recognizes her to explain her substitute. MS. HARLESS: Would you prefer me to do it here? CHAIRMAN BONNEN: It's wherever you're most comfortable. MS. HARLESS: Okay. I'll just do it here. Senate Bill House Committee Substitute Highlights: This bill requires voters to show a photo ID. It has exceptions of people 0 and older as of January st,, Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

5 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW0- Document Filed - in TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, and they may continue to vote with their voter's registration card, indigent voters, voters with religious objections to being photographed, and voters who show proof of Social Security disability or 0 percent disabled vets. The acceptable photo IDs include cards issued by the DPS, most will be driver's license or ID cards no more than 0 days expired, military IDs that are no more than 0 days expired, a passport that is no more than 0 days expired, citizen certificate with photograph, concealed handgun license that are no more than 0 days expired. The changes in the Committee Substitute, the disability exemption has been tightened. The CHL expiration language is made consistent with other forms of ID. It must not have another form of ID to get a free ID, one must not. And it removes the Senate Floor amendment rendering this bill ineffective if the bill is determined to make an appropriation, and legislative council technical changes. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Thank you. Are there any questions of Representative Harless, members? Thank you. Chair calls Chris Ward, an attorney, as invited testimony. And obviously, for all witnesses, we ask that you state your name and who you're representing for the record and then go ahead and begin your testimony. Mr. Ward, you'll have ten minutes. MR. WARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Chris Ward. I represent myself here. I am a partner with the Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

6 Case Case :-cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW0- Document Filed - in TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, law firm of Yetter, Coleman. I've been asked to come testify regarding the constitutionality of Senate Bill under the standard laid out by the Supreme Court. I practice -- CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Mr. Ward, I would assume you're speaking to the substitute, and you've seen the substitute? MR. WARD: Yes, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Thank you. MR. WARD: And I -- and I -- and I -- you know, and I don't think there is any -- have been any changes of constitutional significance in the bill and certainly the -- that the bill before the committee today would satisfy the Court's constitutional standard as I will walk through with you. Just a little by way of background. I primarily practice appellate litigation, including constitutional and Supreme Court litigation. I have some experience in the particular field of voting rights, including being one of the lead attorneys in the 0 Supreme Court case, Northwest Austin MUD v. Holder, which was one of the -- the Court's leading Voting Rights Act decisions in recent years. The Supreme Court has spoken pretty plainly to the particular issue that is before the committee with regard to constitutionality. There is a 0 Supreme Court case, Crawford v. Marion County Election Board in which the Supreme Court upheld Indiana's voter identification law. And what -- the main Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_0000 TX_000

7 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW0- Document Filed - in TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, thing I want to do is kind of walk through a little bit of what the Crawford case holds and how that relates to Senate Bill. The Indiana voter identification law, at the time it was considered by the Supreme Court, was considered to be the most stringent voter identification law in the country. So the fact that the Supreme Court upheld the Indiana voter ID law gave a lot of -- a lot of constitutional validity to the entire concept of requiring voter identification as a means of combatting voter fraud. The opinion in the Crawford case was authored by Justice Stevens, who of course is now off the court, but at the time and for a long time he had been considered one of the most liberal members of the Supreme Court. So there -- there is some -- some weight to the fact that Justice Stevens is the one who wrote the opinion upholding it. He was joined by the chief justice and also by Justice Kennedy who was and still is considered the main swing vote on the Court. Just a few -- a few things to note about the Crawford case. The Indiana voter law that was being considered by the Supreme Court in Crawford, like Senate Bill, would apply to in-person voting and required citizens to show a photo ID in order to vote in person. In the controlling opinion, Justice Stevens laid out the test for a constitutional challenge to an election regulation. He explained that the -- what you do is you weigh the asserted injury to the right to vote against the precise interest put forward by the State. And the Court Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA 000 TX_000

8 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW0- Document Filed - in TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, identified several valid State interests in the context of a voter identification law. The primary State interest, which the Supreme Court said is clearly valid, is the -- the State, of course, has a strong interest in deterring and detecting voter fraud. Interesting to note, in the Crawford case, the Court noted there was -- there was nothing in the record of that case that reflected that in-person voting fraud had actually been occurring or had been a real problem in Indiana. But there were a few flagrant examples from around the country, and the Court made the observation that this is a -- this is a problem a legislature can reasonably expect and can reasonably take steps to prevent. Justice Stevens recounted an anecdote regarding a th century New York ward boss of politics who said, you know, all his voters that he wanted to get out, he always wanted men with whiskers because he could -- he could send them in once to vote with a full set of whiskers. Then he can take them to the barber, have the mustache shaved, send them in, send them back to the barber, they could come back with just their mutton chops. And then if you need more votes, you can send them back clean shaven, and each one was good for four votes. Now, I bring that -- I mention that part of the opinion for two reasons: One, I just find it a little amusing. But the important legal and constitutional point is this was Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 000 USA 000 TX_000

9 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW0- Document Filed - in TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, something that happened more than 0 years ago, and the Court looked at it and said here's an example of where in-person voter fraud could occur. And the point of including that anecdote in the opinion is to say this is a problem a state can address. It doesn't necessary have to be based on current evidence of a contemporary problem. This is something you can anticipate could be a problem, and we know it's been a problem historically, and a state can take reasonable pleasures to prevent it. The Court also identified other valid state interests, interests in improving and modernizing election procedures. The Court noted that in the Help America Vote Act, Congress identified photo identification as one effective method of establishing a voter's qualification to vote. So Congress has also -- has recognized photo ID as a valid way of validating a voter's identity. The Commission on Federal Election Reform, which was a commission chaired by former President Jimmy Carter and Secretary of State Robert Baker -- Jim Baker, issued a report in which they also identified photo ID as a valid method of modernizing and making elections -- election procedures more modern and effective. Safeguarding voter confidence is another valid state interest that the Court identified as served by photo ID laws. Not only does it make the system more fraud proof, but it gives voters more confidence that their system is fraud proof Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

10 Case Case :-cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW 0- Document Filed in - TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, and that their own validly-cast vote will count and will not be diluted by the casting of fraudulent ballots. The Court looked at the burden that a photo ID law imposes on the right to vote, and the Court weighed that against these important state interests. The Court made an important distinction between a particular burden that an individual might face. For some individuals, it might be a particular burden to get a photo ID. But in the context -- in the question of what's called facial validity and a constitutional challenge that seeks to strike down an entire law as unconstitutional is known as a facial challenge. On its face, you look at the burden overall, not in a particular case in which a person, an individual, might be able to make out a case of a particularized as-applied constitutional problem. The Court identified the relevant burden as the burden on those persons who are eligible to vote but who do not currently possess a valid photo ID. The Court noted that if you had to pay some fee to get the photo ID, then that would be an unconstitutional poll tax. But the fact that Indiana's law provided for free photo IDs for those who did not already have them in order to vote kept that from being a problem. Senate Bill has the same provision. A voter can get a free photo ID card from the State if the voter does not already have a card. You know, the Court did recognize that there is a somewhat -- CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Mr. Ward, your time has Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA 000 TX_000

11 Case Case : :-cv-00 -cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW 0- Document Filed in - TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, expired. MR. WARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Thank you. Let the record reflect Representative Taylor is present. He had an issue with traffic. And also, members, let's welcome Representative Anchia who is not a member of the committee. But once the members of the committee have asked the questions they desire, we will respect Representative Anchia and other members who are not on this committee to ask questions of the witnesses. Are there any questions of Mr. Ward of the committee members? Representative Hochberg? MR. HOCHBERG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I realize that you were citing a legal argument, but I just want to make sure that I understand how it fits. I guess this was a -- when you were talking about the gentlemen with mutton chops, I guess what you were saying was if fraud ever existed, then any solution that is reasonably attached to eliminating a fraud that's similar, even if it's not that fraud, makes this constitutional. Is that what your point was? MR. WARD: I think the -- the Court's point is that voter fraud is something that historically, and just the experience of legislatures, can tell you that it could be a problem, and that photo ID is a way of combatting it. MR. HOCHBERG: So any solution -- so any Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA 000 TX_000

12 Case Case :-cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW 0- Document Filed in - TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, action -- it's your position that any action that is arguably to combat voter fraud is legal if there has been any other kind of voter fraud, regardless of whether the action that's taken meets that requirement. I guess the reason I'm asking this is I assume that this bill -- and I have not read the entirety of the substitute, but I assume that this bill doesn't require somebody to reject a voter because they've shaved their whiskers since the time the picture was taken. But the example that you sort of sent up here was that, my goodness, this guy could have shaved, you know, and be able to come in four different times. And I don't see how that's really connected to the bill. So what point is it that you're making about that? MR. WARD: Well, respectfully, Representative, I think the first part of your question was too broad. It's not my position, and I don't think it's the Supreme Court's position that anything, just because it has the intent of combatting voter fraud is necessarily constitutional. But specifically, the Court has looked at photo identification and said that is a constitutionally valid and reasonable method of attempting to combat voter fraud, improve and modernize elections and encourage voter confidence in the system. MR. HOCHBERG: But your position is that whether or not the method to combat voter fraud is connected to the Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

13 Case Case :-cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST Document - RLW 0- Document Filed in - TXSD Filed on // 0 // Page of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MARCH, fraud that has been documented to occur at some point in the -- in the history of the state or the United States, I guess, that that's sufficient to give the State constitutional grounds to oppose it. MR. WARD: Well, I'm saying -- MR. HOCHBERG: I'm not an attorney, so I'm really kind of asking you to explain what that example had to do with anything, because not being an attorney, I can't make all those stretches. MR. WARD: Well, the question was raised in the Crawford case, is there evidence or is there enough evidence that this type of in-person voting fraud is a a present problem in Indiana. MR. HOCHBERG: What type of in-person voting fraud? MR. WARD: Somebody walking in, and maybe they have a voter registration card or they're on the rolls, but they don't -- they're not asked, and they -- they don't have to show, and they don't have a photo ID, and it's not the person who's actually on the registration roll. Maybe the person on the registration rolls is dead. You know, I think there was some evidence in the Indiana case that they had problems with purging their voter rolls, and there were a lot of people who did not meet the constitutional condition of being a person living in the state in order to -- Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA 000 TX_000

14 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e 0of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, MR. HOCHBERG: Who were on the rolls. MR. WARD: Who were on the rolls. MR. HOCHBERG: Right. We're not assuming that any of those dead people were actually voting. MR. WARD: That's correct. The -- MR. HOCHBERG: It would be okay as long as they had the proper ID. MR. WARD: If they had the proper ID and they could get to the polls, I know nothing in the constitution -- MR. HOCHBERG: I grew up in Chicago, so dead voters -- I understand the dead voters, but -- MR. WARD: The Court has not yet decided whether zombies are protected under the th amendment. But the point the Court was making is to uphold this as a facially constitutional method of combatting voter fraud you do not need to have specific evidence that this is a current widespread problem in the state. MR. HOCHBERG: Or apparently, a previous problem that you're actually solving, because you would agree with me that voter ID wouldn't take care of the person who has -- who shaves his mutton chops because there's no requirement that a person have the same facial hair -- MR. WARD: Well, not -- MR. HOCHBERG: -- as they do on the picture. MR. WARD: Not necessarily. That -- that may Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

15 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, be -- MR. HOCHBERG: Or hopefully, the hair on the top of one's head that they do in the picture. MR. WARD: But just by way of example, you know, I -- they used to take DPS driver's license photos with your glasses on. And last time I got my picture made for my driver's license, they made me take my glasses off. And, you know, there were once or twice in my life when I've had to show my ID, and I had different glasses and they -- or I had contacts for a brief period of time, and somebody would say, Is this you? Well, yes, it's me. And I think you could -- if you're looking at a photo ID, you could probably make the same distinction with the whiskers. MR. HOCHBERG: Right. So the -- MR. WARD: But the -- MR. HOCHBERG: So the photo ID wouldn't have prevented you from voting four times. So the -- the example doesn't have to be connected to the case then, I guess. MR. WARD: Well, I think in most cases you could probably say I see you're clean shaven; in this you have a beard. Yeah, I can see. MR. HOCHBERG: Right. MR. WARD: But, you know, I think that gets a little bit into the weeds. The main -- MR. HOCHBERG: Well, just because you brought it Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

16 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, up. So, I -- just -- MR. WARD: Well, the legal reason I pointed to that example is when the Court and Justice Stevens was able to say, I'm going to pull up this 0-year-old example and say that's enough to support using photo ID to combat voter fraud. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Okay. Thank you. MR. WARD: So -- CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Thank you, Representative Hochberg. Let the record indicate Representative Hilderbran is present. Members, any other questions of this witness? Representative Anchia. MR. ANCHIA: Just one. I just want to underscore a distinct, an important distinction that you made earlier, which was the distinction between an as-applied challenge and a facial challenge. Now, the Supreme Court in the Indiana case only dealt with the facial challenge, correct? MR. WARD: That's correct. MR. ANCHIA: There's been no case related to the Indiana law with respect to an as-applied challenge; i s that correct? MR. WARD: That's correct to the best o f my knowledge. MR. ANCHIA: Okay. But you could imagi ne an as-applied challenge that would be successful if the photo ID Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_0000 TX_000

17 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, regime was onerous and disenfranchised persons ; is that correct? MR. WARD : You could imagine an as-applied challenge that would be successful with regard to almost any law, affecting anything. And that's -- MR. ANCHIA : And in the Indiana case, there was no -- there was no as - applied challenge, simply a facial challenge ; is that correct? MR. WARD : T h at ' s correct. MR. ANCHIA: Okay. MR. WARD : And -- and if I may -- you k now, and that ' s the difference between a facial challenge and an as-applied challenge is in a facial challenge, you're saying this whole law -- this law is invalid, it's unconstitutional, please strike it down. And with regard to an as - applied challenge, you can bring an as - applied challenge as to almost any law, whether it's about voting rights or whether it's about a traffic violation or whatever and say, as applied to me, this violates some constitutional ri g ht. MR. ANCHIA : And just to follow up on your -- on your -- on your ana l ys i s. A n d if th ere was a p h o t o identification regime that disenfranchised a significant amount of voters, you could envision an as - applied challenge that would b e success f u l, correc t? MR. WARD : I could envision a challenge by a Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA 000 TX_000

18 Case Case :-cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, particular individual that might be successful, that you cou ld -- MR. ANCHIA: But if it was -- in scope of magnitude, if you had a lot of people who were disenfranchised, you could imagine an as-applied challenge that would be success f u l. MR. WARD: Well -- well, I couldn't imagine -- MR. HOCHBERG: Just using that assumption. MR. WARD: Yeah. I could imagine an individual saying the constitution requires me to have an exception made in my case for this law. I -- agreemen t. Th an k you. MR. ANCHIA: I'll take that as -- as your CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Let the record reflect Representative Gutierrez and Vice Chairman Veasey are present. Represen t a ti ve Ali se d a h as a ques ti on. MR. ALISEDA: Is it not true that with respect to the Supreme Court case you cited, that there were efforts to find plaintiffs that would be able to claim that the statute was unconst i tut i onal as appl i ed to them? MR. WARD: I don't know the full litigation history of the case. I don't know. MR. ALISEDA: I thought the particular case cited efforts by groups to come up with voters that were disenfranchised by the Indiana statute that, in fact, the case Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 000 USA 000 TX_000

19 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, was pending several years prior to the actual hearing. MR. WARD: There likely were. And that's frequently the case in this kind of a challenge. And when you're unsuccessful in being able to dig up a plaintiff who has a good as-applied claim, that can be part of the evidence that the law is not facially unconstitutional because it's not constitutionally significant in terms of the burden it imposes on very many people. MR. ALISEDA: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Thank you, members. Any other questions of Mr. Ward? Thank you, Mr. Ward. Appreciate your time this morning. MR. WARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Okay. Members, we -- at the moment, we don't have any more of the expert witnesses present with us. I guess we started too early. So we will begin with the public testimony, and then as expert witnesses arrive, we will bring them forward and allow them their opportunity. So the chair calls Mr. B.R. Skipper Wallace, legislative chair of the Texas Republican County Chairman's Association to testify for Committee Substitute Senate Bill. MR. WALLACE: Mr. Chairman, committee members, I'm pleasured to be here this morning. My name is B.R. Skipper Wallace. I'm the legislative chairman for the Texas Republican Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

20 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, County Chairman's Association. I've been an election judge and a county chairman for years. I've testified on this -- not this particular bill, but variations of this bill for the last three sessions of the legislature. One statement that's always made is that there are very few documented cases of voter impersonation. That's true. Voter impersonation is probably the most difficult type of voter fraud to prove. Unless the election judge where this person goes to vote knows the person voting or the registration card that they present, there is no way to prove voter impersonation. If you -- Mr. Veasey, if you present M r. Pena's card and you come up there and present it, I have no way to dispute that as an election judge under the present law. One concern about the bill is it is difficult for seniors, the poor and handicap to get photo IDs. We've -- we have agreed in the bill to provide a significant effort to educate, register anyone who does not have a photo ID at no cost to them. The intent of the bill is not to disenfranchise anyone, but to improve the integrity of the voting process. Secretary of State's office reports that there are million registered voters in Texas as of March primary,. million voting age population. DPS reports that there are more than million valid Texas drivers licenses and another million valid Texas ID cards and 00,000 concealed handgun licenses issued to Texans over years old. Currently, Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA 000 TX_000

21 Case Case : -cv-00-rmc-dst-rlw :-cv-00 Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, there are more government issued IDs possessed by the voting age population than there are registered voters. So I'm having a real hard time of figuring out who doesn't have an ID already. You can do the math on those numbers, and you tell me who d oesn 't h ave one. I beg you to stop perpetuating voter fraud and pass a good voter photo ID bill. Hopefully, the goal of everyone on this committee and in the legislature is to improve the election process in Texas. I'll be glad to answer any questions. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Thank you, Mr. Wallac e. Any questions, members? Representative Vice Chair Veasey. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: It's been awhile since I ' ve been in this room, so pardon me. MR. WALLACE: You were here last time I was here. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Yeah, that's right. That is right. So what -- I know that you -- that you're concerned about the point that you made about Aaron. If I have -- if I show you Aaron's voter registration card, that you have to let me vote under the current law. MR. WALLACE: Right. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: But why are you so convinced that there is voter fraud? Like what makes you -- is Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA 000 TX_000

22 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, there -- is -- I know that -- I understand exactly what the point that you're trying to make, that it's easy for anyone to just say, Well, here, here's my card, you know, and that that may be going on throughout the state. But what makes -- why are you -- why are you certain that that's going on throughout the state? MR. WALLACE: Well, there -- there is no way that you can prove that there's not voter fraud, and there's no way that I can prove that there is voter fraud because the difficulty of proving voter impersonation. It -- VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Right. But I think the last statement that you made was that we need to stop perpetuating voter fraud. But you just said that neither one of us can prove that voter fraud is or is not taking place. MR. WALLACE: Well, it is our opinion -- VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Uh-huh. MR. WALLACE: -- that there is voter fraud in the state of Texas -- VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Based on? MR. WALLACE: -- in various and sundry ways. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Based on? MR. WALLACE: Based on different reports from different areas that -- of election judges that talk to me that say that they have witnessed. They have not pursued the case and gone ahead and filed charges because they're not sure Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

23 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, sometimes. But one election judge told me that they know or they felt pretty sure that they saw the same guy come vote three different times with three different cards, but there's not a case on that. So, you know, why don't we take an ounce of prevention instead of a pound of cure and solve this problem. I mean, 0 percent of the voters that come to vote now, at least in the polls that I work in, present a photo ID as it is, w ith ou t it b e i ng a requ i remen t o f th e l aw. you see when people -- VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: How many expired IDs do MR. WALLACE: Not ver y man y. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Okay. MR. WALLACE: No. In fact, nobody -- e verybody thinks that an expired ID is not any good, which, you know, there's some question as to whether an expired ID is a ny good. But -- VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: How many student -- MR. WALLACE: -- I don't ever recall seeing an expired ID presented at a voting place as a way to ide ntify themselves. students, student IDs? VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: How many -- how many MR. WALLACE: How many students? VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Yeah. MR. WALLACE: Well, being that we don't ave a Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA 000 TX_0000

24 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, college in the area where I'm from, we don't get -- again? Ab so l u t e l y. other. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Okay. Where -- MR. WALLACE: -- hardl y an y. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: And where are you from MR. WALLACE: Lampasas, Texas. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Lampasas. Okay. MR. WALLACE: Uh-huh. Small rural county. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Yes. Oh, yeah. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Representative Hochberg. MR. HOCHBERG: Thank you, chairman. Gosh, I thought everybody in Lampasas knew each MR. WALLACE: Well, you'd think so. But even in a small county like that, you know, we've got new people moving in all the time, all these folks moving out of Austin, moving to the hill countr y. I don't blame them. MR. HOCHBERG: Yeah. Well, that -- that would be -- I'd be worried about that too. I don't know what it's going to do to your property taxes. It's probably making a mess. r i g ht. MR. WALLACE: Well, that's probably -- you're MR. HOCHBERG: So what do you -- what are you Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

25 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, going to do? How are you -- how are you going to stop this dude who shows up three times who's obviously gone through the effort of coming up with three different voter registration cards or three different sets of identification? MR. WALLACE: Well, right now -- MR. HOCHBERG: I hadn't been -- I hadn't been -- let me -- I hadn't been for a long time, but I remember that it used to be pretty easy to fake an ID or something to be able to engage in certain activities that weren't allowed to people who were under the age of. MR. WALLACE: I know exactly what you're talking about. MR. HOCHBERG: And so if this dude who came in three times went to the effort of I guess getting some kind of fake identification, because they have to present either a voter registration card or something -- MR. WALLACE: Voter registration cards was my understanding what they -- MR. HOCHBERG: Or something. MR. WALLACE: -- presented. MR. HOCHBERG: Then -- MR. WALLACE: This was not in Lampasas County that this happened. MR. HOCHBERG: And I know -- I know on your watch, you wouldn't let it happen in Lampasas County because you Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

26 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, would have re p orted it. MR. WALLACE: Well, I would probably question -- MR. HOCHBERG: Sure. MR. WALLACE: You know, let me -- well, see, under law, I can't make them produce an ID. MR. HOCHBERG: So when I produce a -- so if that guy was going through that effort, don't you think under this law, he'd have himself a fake ID too? ID s. cards. MR. WALLACE: Well, he'd have to have three fake MR. HOCHBERG: Has three fake voter registration MR. WALLACE: Well, those aren't necessarily fake. You know, there's a business in Texas where they steal voter registration cards and then pass them out -- understanding. MR. HOCHBERG: I think there's -- MR. WALLACE: -- for people to vote. Or it's my MR. HOCHBERG: I don't -- MR. WALLACE: I've never seen that personally. MR. HOCHBERG: I don't know if that's true, but there's -- there's a business -- I'm sure there are -- I know there are businesses that create fake drivers licenses. tried -- MR. WALLACE: I'm sure there are. We -- and we've Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_0000 TX_000

27 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, MR. HOCHBERG: But were they easy to find. MR. WALLACE: -- to eliminate the number of IDs that are available to use as a photo ID because we feel like these are the most secure types -- MR. HOCHBERG: But you would -- MR. WALLACE: -- rather than the utility bills and all this other stuff that we used to have. MR. HOCHBERG: Sure. And but I know when I go to the airport and try to get on an airplane that they don't just look at my ID, but they've got all kinds of gadgets with the little, you know, magnifying -- MR. WALLACE: That's true. MR. HOCHBERG: -- glass and something, because apparently, it's easy to fake unless you've been specially trained to figure out how not to fake it. MR. WALLACE: Right. MR. HOCHBERG: So I'm just wondering if that -- I say if that guy was going to go through the effort of either doing that or cutting his mutton chops or whatever -- MR. WALLACE: Don't know anything about mutton chops. MR. HOCHBERG: Would he -- it doesn't take too much of a stretch to think that he would go ahead and have the appropriate kind of ID if he was -- MR. WALLACE: I think eventually the situation Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

28 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, will evolve to you'll have a little -- a little zip thing like they run credit cards through. They have those for drivers licenses also. In fact, there are -- MR. HOCHBERG: What would you do with that? MR. WALLACE: It gives you all the information off the driver's license and actually puts it into the electronic poll book right now. There is a system available to counties that does that, takes -- CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Mr. Wallace? MR. WALLACE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: And Representative Hochberg, I don't want to cut you off in any way -- MR. HOCHBERG: I understand. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: -- but with all due respect -- MR. HOCHBERG: We've got a long day. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Well, no, I'm not even worried about that, but we will have an expert witness from DPS who can discuss -- MR. HOCHBERG: Great. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: -- these driver's license. No disrespect to you, Mr. Wallace, but I don't think you're -- MR. WALLACE: I'm just trying to answer the question. CHAIRMAN BONNEN : I don't think. No. I know. No, no. I'm just -- I don't think that you're probably the Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 000 USA_000 TX_000

29 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, expert to answer those. MR. HOCHBERG: That's okay. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Go ahead, Mr. Hochberg. MR. HOCHBERG: Let me ask you the other side of the -- MR. WALLACE: Okay. MR. HOCHBERG: -- of the deal. I know that you're -- I know that you are a partisan elected official, but I'm sure you are very fair in the way you administer your elections. MR. WALLACE: I certainly try to be. MR. HOCHBERG: Have you ever heard of a situation where a person administering an election in a precinct, be they republican or democrat, has done anything to discourage people that he -- who he believes to be or she believes to be of the other party, done anything to discourage them from voting? Have you ever heard of that happening? MR. WALLACE: Well, I've not had a case filed with me to -- MR. HOCHBERG: But you've heard of it? MR. WALLACE: I've heard of it, sure. MR. HOCHBERG: You've heard of it as much -- MR. WALLACE: Yeah. MR. HOCHBERG: You've hear of it just like you have -- Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

30 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e0 of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, 0 MR. WALLACE: On both sides. MR. HOCHBERG: That's right. MR. WALLACE: Yeah. MR. HOCHBERG: And just like you've kind of heard of folks maybe walking in -- MR. WALLACE: Yes, sir. MR. HOCHBERG: -- more than once? MR. WALLACE: Yes, sir. MR. HOCHBERG: The one thing that I -- MR. WALLACE: We want to get that out of our elections. MR. HOCHBERG: I absolutely agree with that. MR. WALLACE: We want elections fair and aboveboard so everybody can vote that's supposed to. MR. HOCHBERG: What I -- what I -- what I don't understand is and what I don't see in the bill, and maybe you can -- if you answer this question, I won't ask it again today, but I've asked it -- MR. WALLACE: Okay. MR. HOCHBERG: -- for a number of years on this. You pick up my driver's license and take a look at it, and you look at me, and you know that I'm a registered democrat. I know we don't have registration, but you know I voted in the primary. You know who I am. MR. WALLACE: Yes, sir. Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

31 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, MR. HOCHBERG: And you know it's not me personally because you know I wouldn't let you do this, but but you know it's someone who's likely to vote, and it's not not you, but one of these other folks who have a history of doing this kind of stuff, and they look at the license and they say, I'm sorry, sir, this isn't you. Now, I see references to training in here. And maybe I -- and maybe I'm missing it and -- allow. W a ll ace? MS. HARLESS: May I help you with that? MR. HOCHBERG: If the chair -- if the chair would CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Well, are you asking her or Mr. MR. HOCHBERG: Well, I'm -- well, I'm asking him what he would do, but if -- but if the chair would like Ms. Harless to answer, that's up to the chair. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Sure. MS. HARLESS: We do have an expert here from the Secretary of State to talk about that in the discretions they use -- curren tl y. MR. HOCHBERG: Great. MS. HARLESS: -- and exactly what -- CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Well, they're not here MR. HOCHBERG: But I'll defer until -- if Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

32 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, somebody -- if -- CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Okay. MS. HARLESS: Yeah. We have. MR. HOCHBERG: -- secretary of state w nts to talk about it, I'd love to hear it. MS. HARLESS: On some questions, we do have experts h ere f rom DPS, f rom t h e AG ' s o ffi ce -- State. Thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: And I think we stated that. MS. HARLESS: -- and also from the Secretary of CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Yeah. We'll get to that. MR. HOCHBERG: Okay. Well, thank you, sir. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Any other questions of this witness, members? MS. HARLESS: I have one. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Representative Harless. MS. HARLESS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Yes, ma'am. MS. HARLESS: I know that there's a lot of talk about fraud. And you and I personally may disagree on whether that takes place or it doesn't take place in in-voter fraud. But tell me, in your mind, what happens if one fraudulent vote is cast? Does that steal from a legitimate voter? MR. WALLACE: Well, as you can see in a recent Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

33 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, election contest, it doesn't take very many fraudulent votes to change the election results. And I -- MS. HARLESS: You -- MR. WALLACE: I don't want any fraudulent -- if there's any way I can prevent it, I would like to have everybody have their opportunity to vote. I don't care -- I mean, I do care who they vote for, but, you know, with their right to vote, they can vote for whoever they want to, and however the results come out, they come out. But they need to be legitimate votes. MS. HARLESS: Have you noticed the confidence in the public when they come into your precinct to vote on questioning if their vote really counts and the integrity of the e l ec ti on process? e l ec ti on process. whether they -- MR. WALLACE: On questioning of -- MS. HARLESS: If there's true integrity in the MR. WALLACE: We don't question them as to MS. HARLESS: No, not them. MR. WALLACE: Maybe I misunderstood the question. MS. HARLESS: Do you have people coming in saying, I'm not sure my vote really counts or -- MR. WALLACE: Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah. MS. HARLESS: Because they're questioning the integrity of the election process? Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_0000

34 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e 0of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, MR. WALLACE: Well, you know, you hear all kinds of horror stories, and the press is real good about playing up the if, whens and maybes. And yeah, people are real apprehensive as to whether our elections are really credible or not. And when you get one horror story, then everybody is suspect. They lose confidence in the process. And I think presenting the ID will help reinstill it. percent of the people in Texas are in support. Even the democrats, Mr. Hochberg. CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Thank you. Representative Gutierrez. MR. GUTIERREZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I apologize. I was in a LAP committee meeting that we had earlier, and it's still going on at this time. Mr. -- MR. WALLACE: Wallace. MR. GUTIERREZ: Mr. Wallace, you suggest that the voter fraud is difficult to ascertain and define. But we had an attorney general's investigation on this issue, did we not? MR. WALLACE: We have perpetual attorney general investigation -- MR. GUTIERREZ: And they certainly are the -- MR. WALLACE: -- pertaining to voter fraud. MR. GUTIERREZ: And they are certainly the entity that has the resources -- you would agree with me that they have Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

35 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, more resources than you do by way of -- MR. WALLACE: For sure. MR. GUTIERREZ: -- law enforcement and investigators to go out and find this very problematic problem, as you suggest. I mean, they have the resources to be able to ascertain whether it's going on or not, do they not? MR. WALLACE: The problem with that is, sir, is that it is almost impossible to prove voter impersonation unless you as an election judge say Mr. Aliseda is not Mr. Gutierrez. MR. GUTIERREZ: But the State of Texas spent $. million to investigate this so-called problem. MR. WALLACE: Well, I can't help that. MR. GUTIERREZ: And your ounce of prevention as we so far have it is going to cost the taxpayers $ million, which I don't believe. It's going to cost my county over half a million dollars, which I don't believe. And yet at a time when we have a budget crisis, we're asking people to go after a problem that doesn't exist. MR. WALLACE: Well, how much are legitimate elections worth to you, sir? MR. GUTIERREZ: Really? You really think that we don't have credible elections in the United States of America? MR. WALLACE: I think we have pretty good elections, but I want to make them better. MR. GUTIERREZ: Right. Thank you. Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_000 TX_000

36 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, CHAIRMAN BONNEN: Vice chair Veasey. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Mr. Wallace, I just -- MR. WALLACE: Yes, Mr. Veasey. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: -- had one other thing for you. MR. WALLACE: Sure. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Now, you -- you said that you have heard certain things. MR. WALLACE: Yes, sir. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: And that's one of the concerns that I have about this bill and some of the allegations that have been made since I've been in the legislature is that there's a lot of innuendo, a lot of rumors, a lot of stories, but no one can pinpoint, you know, one thing. It's just stories that have circulated. How long have you been involved with the election process? MR. WALLACE: years. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: years? And when did the voter impersonation become a problem? Do you -- right -- MR. WALLACE: Probably within the last ten years. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: In the last ten years? MR. WALLACE: Uh-huh. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Okay. MR. WALLACE: Or at least that's when people Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA_0000 TX_000

37 Case Case : -cv-00 :-cv-00 - RMC-DST-RLW Document 0- Document Filed in TXSD - Filed on // 0 // Page aq e of of VOTER FRAUD HEARING - VOL. MA] ZCH, started, you know, telling me they thought that there was voter fraud. And you -- like I said, we all -- you always have to go back. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Right. MR. WALLACE: You can't prove it unless you know the one presenting the fake ID or the -- or the fake voter registration card. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Here -- I -- the one thing that interests me about, you know, the stories that you were telling about, well, you know, this person, you know, you heard that in this other county that someone else voted or used a fake ID and one guy voted three times, but no one really knew what to do, no one -- MR. WALLACE: That's right. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: The red universe -- you know, take off your -- your unbiased, you know, election judge hat and think about the red universe, you know, the -- the republican universe. There are so many, you know, web blogs and so many, you know, different, you know -- MR. WALLACE: I don't read all that mess. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: -- conservative web sites and things like that that sort of -- and things, you know, get around on those web sites. MR. WALLACE: Sure. VICE CHAIRMAN VEASEY: Why aren't there more Toll Free: 00..DEPO Facsimile:.. Suite 0 Bee Caves Road Austin, TX JA 00 USA 000 TX_000