Parliamentary Debates

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1 Fifty-second Parliament Parliamentary Debates (HANSARD) CORRECTED DAILY (subject to minor change before inclusion in Bound Volume) Tuesday, 31 July 2018 (for inclusion in Volume 732) WELLINGTON, NEW ZEALAND Published under the authority of the House of Representatives 2018

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3 TUESDAY, 31 JULY 2018 TABLE OF CONTENTS PRAYERS VISITORS Parliament of the United Kingdom Secretary of State for Scotland ORAL QUESTIONS Questions to Ministers Question No. 1 Prime Minister Question No. 2 Finance Question No. 3 Finance Question No. 4 Māori Education Question No. 5 Education Question No. 6 Economic Development Question No. 7 Education Question No. 8 Immigration Question No. 9 Justice Question No. 10 Social Development Question No. 9 to Minister Question No. 11 Internal Affairs Question No. 12 Health ESTIMATES DEBATE In Committee Health Sector (continued) Justice Sector Māori Affairs Sector Primary Sector Social Services and Community Sector

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5 31 Jul 2018 Prayers 5393 Mr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m. TUESDAY, 31 JULY 2018 PRAYERS Mr SPEAKER: Members, in order to celebrate Cook Islands Language Week, I asked the Hon Alfred Ngaro to recite a prayer today. Hon ALFRED NGARO (National): Te Atua Mana, te akameitaki atu nei matou iakoe no toou takinga meitaki taau i riringi mai ki runga ia matou. Te akaruke nei matou i to matou tu tangata, te akamaara nei matou i te ariki vaine, e te pure nei matou kia arataki koe i ta matou uriuri anga manako, kia rave matou I ta matou angaanga i roto i teia ngutuare na roto i te pakari, te tuatua tika e te akaaka no te meitaki e te au o to matou basileia Nu Tireni, na roto i te ingoa o Iesu Mesia, Amene. Mr SPEAKER: Meitaki thank you. VISITORS Parliament of the United Kingdom Secretary of State for Scotland Mr SPEAKER: I m sure that members would wish to welcome the Rt Hon David Mundell, Secretary of State for Scotland, Parliament of the United Kingdom, and his delegation, who are present in the gallery. ORAL QUESTIONS QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS Question No. 1 Prime Minister 1. Hon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government s policies and actions? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister): The answer to that question is most definitely. Hon Simon Bridges: Is he aware that New Zealand has fallen from the secondhighest level of business confidence in all of the OECD in 2016 to having the secondlowest under his Government? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: What I am aware of, and so are my colleagues, is that there are half a million enterprises in this country 490,000 were not asked their opinion; 1,000 were. That s the quality of that survey. Hon Simon Bridges: Has he seen the latest ANZ business confidence numbers released today, which show that business confidence has declined by a further five points? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: It is not surprising that the ANZ, despite having record profits at the moment, has a chairman who s been talking down the economy nevertheless. Hon Simon Bridges: Does he accept that at the moment we have the worst business confidence in our country since the global financial crisis a decade ago, and, if so, what will he do to revise his Government s disastrous policies? Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! Before the member answers, I am going Hon Simon Bridges: I m allowed to have an if so. Mr SPEAKER: Sorry, I will stand up to deal with it if the Leader of the Opposition is going to interject when I m ruling. I m going to let the question go but warn the Leader of the Opposition, and I think he knows exactly what for. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: As they say in one of the home countries, those comments are balderdash. And, more importantly, the IMF has refuted them in their

6 5394 Oral Questions 31 Jul 2018 very confident prediction as to where this Government is taking the growth of our economy. Hon Simon Bridges: Isn t the only credible explanation for the worst business confidence numbers since the global financial crisis directly the Government s policies and actions? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: As much as that member would like to predicate his future on turning down and arguing down the economy, that is most definitely not going to happen either the economy going down or him having a future. Hon Simon Bridges: Why, then, is it the case that business confidence in New Zealand is at a 10-year low and business confidence in Australia is at a 30-year high? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: The record of these confidence surveys has this to reflect upon: when the economy was running at 3.2 percent over a period of nine years, the confidence indicators were all down from those elite business people, and when the economy was running, under National, at an average of 1.9 percent over nine years, the confidence rate was up. In short, you ve got 1,000 of half a million enterprises being surveyed, and that is not the kind of elitism we promote in this country. Hon Simon Bridges: Is it the best the Prime Minister can do to explain away the variety of business confidence surveys and give no real answers to this House or New Zealanders about what is happening at the moment in New Zealand? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I have to be frank to that member and say no, I can do much better, but I don t have to get out of first gear facing him. Hon Simon Bridges: Is he aware that GDP growth per capita has fallen behind Australia for the first time in several years, and what are the Government s policies and actions in relation to turning that around? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: The Government has a tranche of explosive policies that we intend to put into place, or are already having in place, and we can see a rapid turn-around in our country s economy because we re based, in terms of this Government s plan, on production and exports and real wealth, not mass immigration and consumption. Hon Simon Bridges: Is he aware that net migration to Australia has gone from a net 32,000 leaving for Australia in 2008 to a net inflow to New Zealand in 2017, and, if so, will he consider it a failure if net migration to Australia does not continue in this positive direction under his Government s watch? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Again, those stats are false. The net [Interruption] Well, they can all laugh, and maybe fly a white flag later, but the reality is the net trend began in mid-2015 and that party over there is responsible for it. We re going to turn it around. Hon Simon Bridges: What is his Government doing to keep ambitious young New Zealanders in New Zealand given that yesterday in Australia, a new job in the mining sector was advertised every six minutes, while here in New Zealand his Government has banned oil and gas exploration as well as mining on conservation land? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: This Government has not banned oil and gas exploration, and whatever that industry called moining is I m having difficulty trying to understand it we ve not banned that either. Hon Simon Bridges: Is the reality that when New Zealand has the worst business confidence which has a flow-on effect to investment and jobs in a decade since the global financial crisis, all he can do is come down to the House and make jokes about it? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Look, I can t win the jokes stakes; I m looking at one, in terms of his ambition. But I want to tell that member that they can be as mealymouthed and as doomsday as they like, but they are not going to succeed in getting up

7 31 Jul 2018 Oral Questions 5395 the polls or getting back at the next election. If they want to help, we d be grateful for whatever help they might give, but given their last nine years of abysmal performance, I don t think so. Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If it s parliamentary to refer to a member as being a joke, would it not equally be parliamentary to refer to a member as being drunk? Mr SPEAKER: My view is that one is a matter of fact and the other is a matter of opinion. If the member is seriously suggesting the latter in the House and he is inaccurate, he is making a gross breach of privilege. Hon Gerry Brownlee: Speaking to the point of order Mr SPEAKER: No, there is no point of order. The member will resume his seat. Hon Gerry Brownlee: Well, I m entitled to an explanation, surely. Mr SPEAKER: The member will resume his seat. Question No. 2 Finance 2. KIRITAPU ALLAN (Labour) to the Minister of Finance: What impact is global economic conditions having on the New Zealand economy, and what changes, if any, are required to respond to these conditions? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): The IMF recently reported that it projects global growth to reach 3.9 percent in 2018 and 2019, which represents a solid continuation of growth forecast. However, the outlook is not without risk, in the form of financial and trade tensions and political uncertainty. While no one is suggesting that there is an imminent risk to the international economy, I would note the comments from the chair of the ANZ bank, Sir John Key, who highlighted the significant impact of the global outlook on the New Zealand economy and that a correction would eventually occur. As a relatively small, open economy that is reliant on international trade, New Zealand is always vulnerable to changes in the international outlook. Therefore, in order to ensure our economy is resilient to such threats, we need to remain fiscally careful but also make the changes to diversify our export markets and shift the drivers of our economic growth. Kiritapu Allan: What further action does he intend to address student exploitation? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That s not the question. Kiritapu Allan: What does the changing global outlook mean for fiscal management? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I would like to comment on immigration one day, but not today. We re demonstrating our commitment to fiscal responsibility through our adherence to the Budget responsibility rules. We ve always said that if there were a major shock to the global economy, we would adjust the rules accordingly. However, that is not the situation that we are facing today. Under these rules, we are reducing net debt to 20 percent of GDP within five years of taking office, delivering sustainable surpluses across the economic cycle, restarting contributions to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, and making sure that unemployment continues its downward track to 4 percent. By sticking to these commitments, we will do the investment in critical public services and make sure that New Zealand is positioned to respond to any shock or downturn. Question No. 3 Finance 3. Hon AMY ADAMS (National Selwyn) to the Minister of Finance: Does he have confidence in the Government s management of the New Zealand economy? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): Yes, I do.

8 5396 Oral Questions 31 Jul 2018 Hon Amy Adams: Does he take it as a signal of confidence in the Government s economic management that New Zealand has fallen from having the second-highest level of business confidence in the OECD in 2016 to having the second-lowest under this Government? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The OECD report the member refers to shows that New Zealand s business confidence is 0.46 of 1 percent below the long-run average, at a score of percent. So the Opposition is now bemoaning the fact that 0.46 of 1 percent off the long-run average is somehow a major disaster. I would point the member to consumer confidence, which is strong; employee confidence, which is strong; and unemployment, which is going down. Hon Amy Adams: Well, does he take it as a signal of confidence in the Government s economic management that today s ANZ business confidence survey showed business confidence has today fallen even further, to negative 45 percent and own activity which he quotes so often has fallen again, to its lowest level since 2009? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: There is a range of factors that affect business confidence, including international conditions, which a commentator I heard in the weekend opining at great length about the importance Hon Dr Megan Woods: Who was that? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The chair of the ANZ Bank, the person who got the most publicity out of the National Party conference. He said international conditions were the issue. Rt Hon Winston Peters: Who was this resident expert from the ANZ Bank, and what is his past political record? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The person was Sir John Key, and I note that he also made the comment when he spoke that the previous, unsustainable drivers of growth namely, housing speculation and immigration were waning, and that it was a question of what replaces those factors. It s a pity he didn t ask that question over the last nine years, but this Government is getting on with making the changes to be more productive and more sustainable in our economic growth. Hon Amy Adams: Well, does he take it as a signal of confidence in the Government s economic management that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment s national construction pipeline released yesterday showed infrastructure investment projections are dramatically down on last year? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The infrastructure pipeline methodology has changed, as the report authors noted themselves. This Government has a pipeline of infrastructure projects $28 billion worth of transport projects coming down the line. Building consents today are 8 percent up on the same month last year. There is plenty of good activity going on. Of course there are some concerns among the business community about access to skilled staff and international conditions. We ll keep working with them. But on this side of the House, we have a big job to do to shift away from an economy that was based on housing speculation and population growth. The member should listen to John Key. Hon Amy Adams: Does he take it as a signal of confidence in the Government s economic management that the level of capital raised from initial public offerings on the New Zealand stock exchange has fallen from $480 million in the previous period to just $20 million in the first half of this year? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I don t have those numbers in front of me, but I do note that the New Zealand stock exchange has been at record highs in recent times. So while the member can stand on the sidelines trying to talk the economy down, the message that businesses around New Zealand are giving me is that they have a lot of

9 31 Jul 2018 Oral Questions 5397 activity. They re looking for more skilled staff, and we re getting on with making sure that we provide those skilled staff to them, unlike in the last nine years of underinvestment. Rt Hon Winston Peters: If any of those stats being quoted at the Minister were correct, how come New Zealand has the lowest recent record unemployment? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, that s an interesting question. What I do note is that the priority that this Government is giving to investing in the regions of New Zealand through the Provincial Growth Fund, through R & D, and through lifting the skills of New Zealanders is going to make a big difference as we get down to our goal of 4 percent unemployment. Hon Amy Adams: Well, in light of all the evidence showing that even with our current strong trade conditions, the domestic economy has begun to stall under this Government, what is he actually going to do to promote economic growth? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, what we re doing is transitioning away from an economy that was based on population growth and housing speculation. That member might think that that s a sustainable growth path; it s not. We have to actually invest in the future of our regions through the Provincial Growth Fund, through our research and development tax incentive, through the Green Investment Fund, and through lifting the skills of New Zealanders. On this side of the House, we re getting on with the job of making that transition. Question No. 4 Māori Education 4. Hon PAULA BENNETT (Deputy Leader National) to the Associate Minister of Education (Māori Education): Does he stand by all his statements and actions in regard to Māori education? Hon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (Māori Education)): Yes, in the context that they were made and taken. Hon Paula Bennett: What is his response to Sir Toby Curtis, who said in relation to Chris Hipkins, The Minister s carrot-and-stick approach may work on his Māori MP colleagues who remain curiously silent. and I am here waiting patiently, for our Māori Labour MP, to whisper just one kind word of support.? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: The issue here is making sure that all Māori students across the whole system have access to quality education, not just half of 1 percent of the Māori students who attend compulsory education. Hon Paula Bennett: They don t count. Hon KELVIN DAVIS: Well, as I said, if the member listened, the emphasis is on all Māori students, and what the Hon Chris Hipkins has done has invited Māoridom, through the education summits, to actually help co-design the whole system, not just a fraction of the system. Hon Paula Bennett: So when does he intend to stand up for the achievement of Māori students who don t want their partnership schools forced back into the State school system? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: Those schools who are now partnership schools next year will have their doors open. The same people who are running those schools will be running them. The same curriculum that was being taught will be taught. The children will wear the same uniforms. Very little is going to change except for a few administration issues. Now, let me tell you this: in 2006 and 2007, I was part of a group with the ASB Community Trust to help to establish the A Company academy that s now part of Te Kāpehu Whetū, in Whangarei. That school ran for three or four years highly successfully, and they weren t a partnership school. They will still be able to run highly successfully when they transition to the State system.

10 5398 Oral Questions 31 Jul 2018 Hon Paula Bennett: Does he accept that the very school he has just mentioned will, by having to go back into the State sector, now have a higher teacher-student ratio and will lose mentors who they can currently employ because they are a partnership school and have some more freedom of funding, and those students have been achieving better because of it? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: No. And what the member has just illustrated is the fact that the charter schools were over-resourced in comparison to State schools, which is exactly what the State system was saying about charter schools. Hon Paula Bennett: What is his response then to the school who have today made it clear that entering the State system will cause them to lose key staff, and that mentoring of senior students by non-teaching staff had been a crucial element in the students academic achievements.? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: As I have said, we want all schools all Māori students to be successful, not just a handful of schools. And, as I ve said, the changes that the Hon Chris Hipkins is making to the education system in unwinding the nine years of neglect from the last Government are going to make a massive difference for all Māori students. Rt Hon Winston Peters: If Māori schools was a political preoccupation, how come Hato Petera College got wound down? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: Yes, it s very sad what happened to Hato Petera College under the previous Government, and now it s got to the stage Mr SPEAKER: Order! Hon Gerry Brownlee: Point of order. Mr SPEAKER: No, I think I can deal with it. I was hoping that the member might answer in an area for which he has some responsibility, but he doesn t for that. Question No. 5 Education 5. Hon NIKKI KAYE (National Auckland Central) to the Minister of Education: What plans, if any, does he have to ensure more students have more time with teachers, and students with more complex needs get access to the support they need? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): Can I thank the member for the question. My first plan is to address the serious teacher shortage that we inherited from the previous Government due to the 40 percent reduction in the number of people training to be teachers during the tenure of the last Government. In December, I announced an initial teacher supply package. This was significantly boosted again in this year s Budget. Teachers have been freed up to spend more time with students through the scrapping of national standards, and our work to reduce red tape and compliance is ongoing. Students with more complex needs have benefited from the biggest increase in learning support funding in over a decade, while those in early childhood education have benefited from the first across-the-board funding increase in over a decade. Hon Nikki Kaye: Does he agree that children will get better educational outcomes through more teacher time if the student to teacher ratio is reduced? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I seem to recall making that argument when the previous Government was trying to make class sizes bigger. The biggest challenge we have with regard to teacher-student ratios at the moment is having enough teachers to fill the existing vacancies that we have in our schools because of the 40 percent reduction in the number training to be teachers. Hon Nikki Kaye: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked a very simple, yes or no question: does he believe educational outcomes

11 31 Jul 2018 Oral Questions 5399 Mr SPEAKER: The member will resume her seat. She knows she s been here a number of years members cannot require a yes or no answer. The member got an answer, and if she listened, she would ve heard it. Hon Nikki Kaye: Why has he prioritised spending $2.8 billion on his fees-free and tertiary policy over smaller class sizes? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I reject the assertion in the member s question. The Government has committed to reducing and eliminating financial barriers to participation in education at all levels. The moves that we are taking in early childhood education will help to ease the pressure on parents. The Government is committed to dealing with the chronic underfunding that has afflicted our school system, and the increase in funding for tertiary education will of course benefit, amongst others, the future teaching workforce. Hon Nikki Kaye: In light of his comments regarding teacher shortages, have actual primary class sizes, on average, increased or decreased in the last eight months? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The current Government has made no changes to the funding formula for teachers, and therefore Hon Nikki Kaye: Actual class sizes now? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Well, with regard to actual class sizes, the previous Government didn t collect any data on actual class sizes, so it s very difficult to draw a conclusion as to whether actual class sizes have changed. Of course, the decisions around how many pupils are in an individual class rest with the individual schools. The previous Government didn t record that. We haven t started recording that. As part of the workforce strategy work that this Government has put in place something the previous Government didn t do anything about that may be one of the things we consider. Jan Tinetti: Has the Minister seen any proposals to increase the amount of time teachers can spend with our youngest learners? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Yes, indeed I have. I ve seen a proposal to change the teacher-child ratios for under-two-year-olds from 1:5 to 1:4. That proposal was put forward some time ago, and a decade later these children are still waiting for the National Party to deliver on their last promise to lower student-teacher ratios. Hon Nikki Kaye: Will he guarantee that he will deliver smaller class sizes in primary schools in the term of this Government? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The commitments the Government s made regarding teachers have been set out in the Speech from the Throne and the various coalition agreements that we have. We have a commitment to putting forward an education workforce strategy, and that will be considered as part of that work. Question No. 6 Economic Development 6. Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) to the Minister for Economic Development: Does he stand by the Government s economic development strategy? Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Economic Development): Yes. Hon Paul Goldsmith: What is the strategy? Hon DAVID PARKER: Well, last time I outlined the strategy, the Speaker told me that I listed too many important aspects. Mr SPEAKER: That s right. Hon DAVID PARKER: But, in summary, we aim to diversify our export base, turning our economy from volume to value; we re changing the investment signals so that more capital goes to the productive export economy rather than unproductive speculation; and we want equality of opportunity and more equal opportunities and outcomes, no matter where you live in New Zealand that s called regional

12 5400 Oral Questions 31 Jul 2018 development. This is in stark contrast to the Opposition s growth model of weak per capita growth, housing speculation, poorly targeted immigration Mr SPEAKER: Order! Order! The member is finished. Hon Paul Goldsmith: So, if by changing the investment signals he means introducing a capital gains tax, how does he think taxing small-business owners more by taxing capital gains in building up their business as well as profits every year will promote economic development? Hon DAVID PARKER: That s not what I mean. But it is absolutely, patently clear that New Zealand has to do something different from the last Government, given that the last Government had an ambition of increasing exports from 30 to 40 percent of GDP and, in nine years, trashed the economy and took exports back to 27 percent of GDP. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Does he still think that the ANZ survey of business confidence is junk? Hon DAVID PARKER: Yes. Hon Paul Goldsmith: That s not what he said last time. When he says that business confidence surveys are down because business leaders and employers don t like the Labour Party, can he blame them? Hon DAVID PARKER: That s not quite what I said. Although I haven t read the latest ANZ survey, I m sure it s no different from the earlier ones. It s a survey of the emotion of CEOs, and it s about their sentiment. It s not about rising jobs, increasing incomes, and increasing surpluses. In respect of the other survey that was noted by the Opposition today, which is the OECD one, I note that that s based on 2017 hard data, and that their company report notes New Zealand s high-level costs, neglect of the regions, undeveloped capital markets, wealth inequality, and significant infrastructure problems. There are some challenges that we need to overcome after nine years of neglect by the last Government. Question No. 7 Education 7. JAMIE STRANGE (Labour) to the Minister of Education: What action, if any, is the Government taking to increase the supply of teachers? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): This year s Budget provided $370 million to fund 1,500 more teaching places by 2021, to meet population growth. This is on top of a $9.5 million teacher supply package that I announced in December and an additional $20 million set aside in this Budget to continue that package over the next four years. Every teacher supply initiative that this Government is committed to has been fully detailed and fully costed. Jamie Strange: What progress to date has the Government made to increase the number of teachers since it came into power nine months ago? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: This Government has funded nearly 900 teacher education refresher places, removing the cost barriers for refresher training so that teachers can continue teaching or return to teaching faster. We expanded the Auckland Beginning Teacher Project to 60 places in 2018, with another 60 in We expanded the Voluntary Bonding Scheme to encourage new teachers to work in decile 1, 2, and 3 Auckland schools and nationwide in identified subjects, such as Māori medium. More than 300 teachers who started their roles in 2018 will be eligible for a payment after completing three consecutive years of employment. Jamie Strange: What steps is he taking to lift the status of the teaching profession? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Our Government is very proud to be progressing legislation to give teachers back the right to elect their representatives to their own professional

13 31 Jul 2018 Oral Questions 5401 body. I look forward to the increased support I anticipate for this bill following National s newfound sudden respect for teachers. Question No. 8 Immigration 8. Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National) to the Minister of Immigration: Does he stand by all his statements, policies, and actions? Hon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Minister of Immigration): Yes, in the context in which they were given, made, and taken. Hon Michael Woodhouse: When he was advised by officials of organised fraud by Sri Lankan student visa applicants, why did he take no action to establish how widespread the fraud was? Hon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY: Well, because Immigration New Zealand was already in the process of taking that action. Hon Michael Woodhouse: What was that action? Hon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY: That action was to manually review the 895 applications that were received through the Mumbai office for visas from Sri Lankan nationals during 2017 and see which ones of those involved the finance company in question. Greg O Connor: What action has he taken to address issues of international student exploitation? Hon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY: The best remedy is to ensure that Immigration New Zealand has the resources it needs to address these issues. When I became Minister, I discovered that the Immigration New Zealand memorandum account was $50 million in deficit. What we are doing as a Government is consulting on immigration fees and levies to ensure that the system is properly funded and resourced. Greg O Connor: What further action does he intend to take to address student exploitation? Hon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY: We have recently consulted on post-study work rights proposals. These changes are intended to maintain the quality of New Zealand s education industry and reduce the exploitation of migrant students. The results of this consultation will be announced shortly. Hon Michael Woodhouse: What action will be taken against students found to have committed fraud on their applications? Hon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY: Well, the challenge, of course, is to verify whether students used the finance company s services fraudulently. The challenge here is that going back and retrospectively reviewing those applications requires a source to verify that financial information. The one and only source is the fraudulent finance company. So what Immigration New Zealand is doing is identifying which students may be involved, and should those students seek to extend their visa in New Zealand, those visas will be scrutinised carefully and it will be made absolutely certain that they have the source of funds they need to support themselves in New Zealand. Hon Michael Woodhouse: What signal does that answer send to future applicants who might be tempted to lie on their applications and suffer not one single negative consequence? Hon IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY: Well, the future for Immigration New Zealand is that the applications that involve that finance company will no longer be accepted and that the patterns of behaviour that were detected when this fraud was identified are being looked for across the immigration system to find other opportunities to detect fraud early. What we need to make sure of is that this immigration system has integrity. I am focused on the future, not on cleaning up the mess that occurred under that member s watch.

14 5402 Oral Questions 31 Jul 2018 Question No. 9 Justice 9. Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National Nelson) to the Minister of Justice: Does he agree with the statement on the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill made by Greens co-leader Marama Davidson on Friday that, it is a bill which is undemocratic, and that this bill threatens democracy? Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice): Kia orana e Te Vaa Tuatua. Marama Davidson is free to express her view, but this Government has agreed on one thing about this bill, and that is that the fundamental democratic principle is that the electorate decides the make-up of Parliament, not individual MPs. Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does he accept that a majority of this Parliament oppose his bill? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: No. Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does he agree with the statement by founding Green co-leader, the late Rod Donald, on a previous electoral integrity bill, that it was the most draconian, obnoxious, anti-democratic, insulting piece of legislation ever Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr SPEAKER: I think I know where the member s going. I want to hear the end of the question first to see if it does get into order. Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does he agree with the statement by founding Green co-leader, the late Rod Donald, on a previous electoral integrity bill, that is was and I quote from Hansard the most draconian, obnoxious, anti-democratic, insulting piece of legislation ever inflicted on Parliament, which is now to become law, only with the votes of the Green Party? Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member is asking a question for which the Minister cannot be responsible about a previous bill that came into this House something like 17 years ago and then seeks to get it within the Standing Orders by mentioning the current legislation, and he can t do that. Hon Gerry Brownlee: Speaking to the point of order Mr SPEAKER: No, I am prepared to deal with it. The question is about a matter of policy rather than the detail of a particular bill, and the Minister is responsible for the policy. He will answer the question. Hon ANDREW LITTLE: Apart from not understanding what abnoxious means, the answer to the question is no. Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does his bill address the situation where MPs state one thing but vote for the exact opposite, and does that fit within the definition of integrity in his bill? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: The circumstance that that member has just described applied to National Party MPs in the Greens medicinal cannabis member s bill earlier this year, but Hon Dr Nick Smith: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question is not about the medicinal cannabis bill. It is about the electoral integrity bill for which he has responsibility. Mr SPEAKER: And if the member made that clear, rather than asking a general question, then I would have Hon Dr Nick Smith: I d be happy to restate the question. Mr SPEAKER: No, I m not going to ask the member to ask it again. Andrew Little, start your answer again. Hon ANDREW LITTLE: The circumstance that that member just referred to was precisely the circumstance that applied to a number of National MPs in the debate over the Green Party s member s bill on medicinal cannabis earlier this year. Notwithstanding that, I don t agree with the proposition that that member has just put.

15 31 Jul 2018 Oral Questions 5403 Question No. 10 Social Development 10. PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) to the Minister for Social Development: What recent announcements has she made that highlight this Government s industry partnership-focused approach to employment? Hon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development): Kia orana e Te Vaa Tuatua. Last Thursday, I announced the launch of the online interactive tool Restaurant Tycoon that allows small and medium business owners to learn about the services offered by the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), BNZ, and Xero. This tool is the result of hard work from MSD s industry partnership team, in conjunction with BNZ and Xero, to provide new and innovative employment opportunities for MSD clients. Restaurant Tycoon is one of a series developed by Joy Business Academy and will be sent to almost 500,000 small to medium business customers of BNZ and Xero. Through this tool, these customers will learn how they can work with MSD for free to recruit staff, access relevant products and services, and utilise mentoring and support when hiring an MSD client. Priyanca Radhakrishnan: Why is the industry partnership between MSD, BNZ, and Xero important? Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: The online interactive tool developed out of this industry partnership not only provides small and medium businesses with a better way to engage with MSD; it also provides MSD clients with the opportunity to explore selfemployment and business ownership. This tool can be used by clients who are interested in starting up their own business so they can see how this can be done and learn important tricks of the trade. This tool is also just one of a series being developed. Interactive tools are also being developed for building and construction, as well as tourism. As we know, these are areas currently in need of more workers. This initiative reflects how industry partnerships with Government can respond. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Order! The answers are getting longer, and they re already long. Priyanca Radhakrishnan: What other recent accomplishments have there been as a result of the Ministry of Social Development s industry partnerships? Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Earlier in July, I attended the signing of a memorandum of understanding between MSD and XLam in Nelson. XLam is an innovative building manufacturing and construction company that is creating entry-level manufacturing and construction opportunities. In the same week, another one of our successful industry partners, the Downer Group, celebrated hiring 1,000 MSD clients over its time. MSD and Downer have had a relationship since 2007, and we are continuing to grow this Mr SPEAKER: Order! OK, OK. I m recommending a press statement. Question No. 9 to Minister Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National Nelson): I seek leave of the House to table the draft report of the Justice Committee with respect to the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill and the factual matters that National wanted included in the report that meant the committee was unable to provide a commentary to the House. Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House): My understanding is that when a bill is reported back to the House, all of the information that the committee had relating to that bill is then publicly released. Mr SPEAKER: It s certainly publicly available. Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National Nelson): I m advised by the Clerk of the House that the draft report that was unable to be agreed to is not one of the documents that

16 5404 Oral Questions 31 Jul 2018 becomes public, and the only way for it to become public was for me to seek leave of the House for it to be tabled. Mr SPEAKER: Right. The member is correct. The Hon Dr Nick Smith is correct. This, as I remember, was a point of debate at the last Standing Orders review. I think it was the view of myself and some of my colleagues that they should be available, but the view of members some other members was that they should not be automatically available. So in that case, they are not automatically available. The Hon Dr Nick Smith is correct, and I will put the leave. Is there any objection? There is objection. [Interruption] Order! That cross-house interjection will cease. I just want to place on my record my concern at the members who did object and their lack of commitment to transparency. Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The issue here, which was well canvassed, is that a draft report has been prepared by the clerk. It does not necessarily reflect the views of the members. Unless the committee agrees a report, it has no standing and in no way reflects the view of the meeting or the members who attended the meeting. Mr SPEAKER: The member is absolutely right, and, if he remembers, his colleagues also argued at the same Standing Orders Committee that draft reports to Ministers are available under the Official Information Act. Ministers can differentiate themselves from those draft reports if they wish, and it was the view of the minority of the Standing Orders Committee that members of Parliament were big enough and able enough to differentiate themselves in that way. Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National Nelson): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr SPEAKER: I hope the member s not going to extend this, because it s Hon Dr NICK SMITH: No, I was simply going to say, having had your further advice, I wonder whether the Government members might allow me to seek leave again. Mr SPEAKER: Well, I m certainly not going to put that. If it can be negotiated with the Government that that approval will be given, then the member might want to try and do it tomorrow. Question No. 11 Internal Affairs 11. CHRIS BISHOP (National Hutt South) to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Does she have confidence in the process that led to the appointment of Dr Pauline Kingi as chair of the Government inquiry into the appointment of Wally Haumaha as the Deputy Commissioner of Police? Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs): Firstly, the premise of the question is incorrect there is no inquiry into Mr Haumaha. There is, however, a Government inquiry into the appointment process for a Deputy Commissioner of Police. Having said that, I can confirm that the process used to establish the independent Government inquiry into the appointment process for a Deputy Commissioner of Police is the same as that used for the chair of any other inquiry. It is a process run by the Department of Internal Affairs and supported by other agencies. It is the same process established by the previous National Government in November 2009, and was updated by the National Government in 2013 and used by that Government to establish the whey protein concentrate contamination incident in 2013, the royal commission of inquiry on the Pike River coalmine tragedy in 2012, and the Government inquiry into the Havelock North drinking water. Chris Bishop: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was an interesting traverse through the last few years of Government inquiries, but it didn t really go to the question of whether or not the Minister has confidence in the process. Mr SPEAKER: I think it did. Does the member have a supplementary?

17 31 Jul 2018 Oral Questions 5405 Chris Bishop: How can she have confidence in the process that appointed Dr Pauline Kingi when she has publicly endorsed Mr Wally Haumaha 23 times for a range of attributes, including for leadership, governance, public safety, crime prevention, and stakeholder management? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Dr Kingi has declared that she knew Mr Haumaha in a professional capacity when she was a highly respected public servant. She has also declared that she attended a tangi either in 2015 or 2016 [Interruption] Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume her seat. This is a very important answer that goes to the integrity of at least two people, and will be heard in silence. Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Dr Kingi has declared that she knew of Mr Haumaha in a professional capacity when she was a highly respected public servant. She has also declared that she attended a tangi in either 2015 or 2016 that Mr Haumaha also attended. Dr Kingi has signed, as is standard procedure, a declaration confirming that she has no conflict of interest in relation to the appointment which, I remind the member, is into the process by the State Services Commission around appointment processes. If the member if asking if LinkedIn is a usual port of call for Government departments to ascertain the suitability of an inquiry chair, then I would have to say no. Rather than resort to social media, this Government looks to the substantial CVs of candidates and the fullness of their service to their communities and their country, and Dr Kingi is a New Zealander that has given great service to her country. I would suggest this is why the 1999 Shipley-led National Government awarded Dr Kingi the Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit. Chris Bishop: When Dr Pauline Kingi was appointed to lead the independent inquiry into the appointment process around Mr Wally Haumaha, was she aware that Dr Kingi had publicly endorsed Mr Haumaha 23 times on LinkedIn for every skill Mr Haumaha has listed on that website and, in some cases, being the only person to endorse him and that Mr Haumaha has endorsed Dr Kingi on at least three occasions for her skills listed on the LinkedIn website? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I was unaware of the LinkedIn endorsements until my office was contacted by media this morning. I requested that the chief executive contact Dr Kingi to clarify the suggested conflict. While Dr Kingi could not remember making these endorsements, she did confirm Hon Members: Ha, ha! Hon TRACEY MARTIN: This is important. Would you like to listen? The integrity of a highly respected public servant is being questioned; it s important that her answers be placed on the record. She did confirm that she had, like many New Zealanders, set up a LinkedIn account when it was first launched, and that at time it was Hon Simon Bridges: Are you that useless? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: common practice for Māori professionals to Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume her seat. The Leader of the Opposition will stand, withdraw, and apologise. Hon Simon Bridges: I withdraw and apologise. Hon TRACEY MARTIN: It was common practice at that time 16 years ago for Māori professionals to support each other on this new medium through endorsement. Rt Hon Winston Peters: Is it a fact that not only did Dr Pauline Kingi get a substantial honour from the National Party but so did Wallace Haumaha not once but twice? Mr SPEAKER: Order! This member has no responsibility for that. Chris Bishop: Further to that answer, is the member aware that the endorsement function on LinkedIn was only invented and established in 2012, so references to LinkedIn profiles 15 years ago are an utter irrelevance?

18 5406 Oral Questions 31 Jul 2018 Hon TRACEY MARTIN: My understanding is that LinkedIn was developed in years ago. It may be that the member is more au fait with social media than I am because I spend most of my time working on things important to New Zealand, not on Twitter. Chris Bishop: Can the Minister give a categorical assurance that Dr Pauline Kingi was not involved in recommending promotions or appointments of Mr Haumaha in her role as a member of the Auckland District advisory taumata and her role assisting the Auckland District police with police recruitment? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I can give an assurance of the complete and proper process around the appointment of Dr Kingi as the chair of an independent inquiry into the process by which the State Services Commission provides information to Ministers for appointment. I can also direct the member to the Office of the Auditor-General s Managing conflicts of interest: Guidance for public entities if he would like to avail himself of that information with regard to how conflict of interest is managed in this country. Question No. 12 Health 12. Dr LIZ CRAIG (Labour) to the Minister of Health: What recent progress has been made, if any, to address safe staffing for nurses working in our hospitals? Hon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health): Mr Speaker, kia orana. Yesterday the Ministry of Health, district health boards (DHBs), and the Nurses Organisation signed an accord, and agreed to jointly tackle longstanding concerns about nurses workloads and safe staffing. Safe staffing is not optional; it is fundamental and must be a priority. This accord sets a clear path forward to ensure that we get the right number of nurses in the right place at the right time. Dr Liz Craig: So how will safe staffing levels be determined? Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: The accord commits DHBs and the Ministry of Health to work with the Nurses Organisation to implement the agreed safe staffing tool, Care Capacity Demand Management. I accept that nurses don t feel that DHBs have always delivered on previous commitments. As Minister of Health, I will be requiring them to make good on all staffing commitments, and clear accountability mechanisms will be in place. Dr Liz Craig: What measures will be taken to ensure there are sufficient nurses available? Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: The accord also includes a commitment to develop a strategy to help keep existing nurses and midwives in the public health service and attract others back to work in our hospitals, and we will look at what more we can do to support our graduate nurses into employment and training. These are realistic steps we can take right now to start addressing the issues of safe staffing and workloads that have developed over many years of underfunding. ESTIMATES DEBATE In Committee Debate resumed from 24 July on the Appropriation (2018/19 Estimates) Bill. Health Sector (continued) The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley): Kia orana, colleagues. The House is in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2018/19 Estimates) Bill. When we were last considering the bill, the committee was debating the health sector. The question is that Vote Health stand part of the schedules. Dr Liz Craig had the call and has four minutes and 25 seconds remaining if she so wishes.

19 31 Jul 2018 Estimates Debate 5407 Dr LIZ CRAIG (Labour): Thank you, Madam Chairperson. So when I was interrupted I was talking about targets and about how the fact is that in the health sector they re useful for focusing action in important areas but they can also be used to divert attention from things that we d rather people didn t see. And I was also talking about how this Budget starts to address some of those real underlying drivers about what s really happening in our health system. So I want to talk a little bit about one of the targets: emergency department waiting times. Because what we re seeing is you know, with the previous Government s targets a lot of emergency departments (EDs) are working really hard to get patients through the system so they can meet the target of 95 percent admitted, discharged, and transferred within about six hours, but the problem that these targets completely miss is why our EDs are bursting at the seams in the first place. This is something that the district health boards (DHBs) were talking about in their annual reviews, with DHBs talking about this ongoing, increasing, relentless demand for acute services. The problem we ve got is a lot of those conditions that people are coming in with are called ambulatory sensitive. What that means is that the hospitalisation could potentially be prevented if they had early access to primary care. What the New Zealand Health Survey is saying is that about 14 percent of people in the last year put off going to the doctor because of the cost, but if you look at people living in the poorest areas, that went up to about 20 percent. So what this Government wants to do is make sure that people can afford to go to the doctor when they need one. What Budget 2018 does is invest an extra $360 million over four years to extend access to Very Low Cost Access (VLCA) GP services to community services card holders. What that means is that for those who are not on a VLCA practice already, their doctors visits will be about, on average, $20 to $30 cheaper. We re also going to be extending community service cards to all those on accommodation supplement or income-related rent, so even more people can access affordable primary care, and that s really important for ensuring that people can get to the doctor rather than having to turn up at A & E and end up in hospital. The area I was working in before coming to Parliament, though, was child health, and again, looking at targets, there was this huge focus on immunisation rates. Indeed, as we focused on that, immunisation rates did improve because DHBs got together with public health organisations and GPs and worked out how we could improve timeliness and access to immunisation. But the problem is that that s only sort of a few hundred vaccine-preventable hospital admissions maybe a couple of thousand. What it misses is that our whole hospital system is full of sick kids: on average, there are about over 40,000 hospital admissions every year for infectious and respiratory diseases, a lot of them related to the economic conditions that the kids are living in. The problem we ve got is that most of those conditions aren t actually vaccine-preventable. So when you ve got to reduce this, what you need to be doing is looking at housing, looking at family income, reducing child poverty, and also making sure families can get to the GP when they need one. This Budget addresses all of those areas. With the Families Package, we re looking at family income. We re also looking at housing, with 6,400 new houses State or social houses over the next four years. In the primary-care space, what we re looking at is extending free GP services to all 13-year-olds and also extending the nurses in schools programme to all decile 4 secondary schools that are publicly funded. So what we ve got is many more young people being able to access GP services. The problem we ve also got with some targets while a lot of the ones I ve been talking about are tangentially related to targets, there s others where the targets have completely missed what s going on the health sector, and that s the state of our