Police Service, Crime and Anti Social Behaviour in Wales

Transcription

1 House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee Police Service, Crime and Anti Social Behaviour in Wales Fourth Report of Session Volume II Oral and written evidence Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 15 March 2005 HC No 46-II (including HC 1182 i iv of Session Published on 23 March 2005 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited 31.30

2 The Welsh Affairs Committee The Welsh Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Office of the Secretary of State for Wales (including relations with the National Assembly for Wales.) Current membership Mr Martyn Jones MP (Labour, Clwyd South) (Chairman) Mr Martin Caton MP (Labour, Gower) Mr Huw Edwards MP (Labour, Monmouth) Mr Nigel Evans MP (Conservative, Ribble Valley) Dr Hywel Francis MP (Labour, Aberavon) Julie Morgan MP (Labour, Cardiff North) Albert Owen MP (Labour, Ynys Môn) Mr Mark Prisk MP (Conservative, Hertford and Stortford) Mrs Betty Williams MP (Labour, Conwy) Hywel Williams MP (Plaid Cymru, Caernarfon) Mr Roger Williams MP (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire) Powers The Committee is one of the Departmental select Committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at A list of Reports of the Committee in the Present Parliament is at the back of this volume. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are James Davies (Clerk), Dr Rebecca Davies (Committee Specialist), Paul Derrett (Committee Assistant) and Sarah Colebrook (Secretary), Jim Lawford (Senior Office Clerk) Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerks of the Welsh Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is ; the Committee s address is welshcom@parliament.uk

3 Police Service Crime and Anti-Social Behaviour in Wales 1 Contents Witnesses 3 List of written evidence 4 List of unprinted written evidence 5 Reports from the Welsh Affairs Committee since

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5 Police Service Crime and Anti-Social Behaviour in Wales 3 Witnesses Wednesday 20 October 2004 Chief Constable Terence Grange, Dyfed-Powys Police Ev 1 Wednesday 27 October 2004 Chief Constable Barbara Wilding, Assistant Chief Constable David Francis (Community and Partnerships) and Paul Wade, Director of Finance, Administration and ICT, South Wales Police Ev 17 Wednesday 3 November 2004 Morning Sitting Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom and Inspector Paul Firth, North Wales Police Afternoon Sitting Chief Constable Mike Tonge, Gwent Police Ev 31 Ev 47 Wednesday 24 November Stephen Rimmer, Director, Policing Policy, Louise Casey, Director, Anti- Social Behaviour and Margaret O Mara, Director, Crime Reduction, Home Office Ev 57 Tuesday 30 November 2004 Ruthin Castle Hotel, Ruthin Malcolm King, Chairman of the North Wales Police Authority Carol Moore, Chair, North Wales Criminal Justice Board, Chief Officer, North Wales Probation Area Ev 71 Ev 78 Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom, North Wales Police Ev 83 Wednesday 15 December 2004 Keri Lewis, Chief Executive, Bridgend County Council and Chairperson of Bridgend Community Safety Partnership Safer Bridgend, and Brian Greaves, Chief Superintendent, Rhondda Cynon Taff Division, Co-chair of Rhondda Cynon Taff Community Safety Partnership Ev 99 Wednesday 12 January 2005 Simon Boyle, Chairman of Gwent Criminal Justice Board, Sue Hall, Chief Probation Officer and Chair of the South Wales Criminal Justice Board, and Stephen Routledge, Performance Officer, South Wales Criminal Justice Board Owen Watkin, Chairman, Ceredigion Community Safety Partnership, Chief Executive, Ceredigion County Council, and Ian Miller, Joint Chairman, Denbighshire Community Safety Partnership, Chief Executive, Denbighshire Ev 115 Ev 125

6 4 Police Service Crime and Anti-Social Behaviour in Wales County Council Thursday 20 January 2005 Bridges Community Centre, Monmouth Kevin Wong, Assistant Director, Nacro Cymru Jon Trew, National Officer for Wales, Victim Support Chief Constable Mike Tonge, Gwent Police Force Ev 137 Ev 143 Ev 148 Wednesday 9 February 2005 Hazel Blears MP, Minister of State for Crime Reduction, Policing, Community Safety, Counter-Terrorism and Resilience Issues, The Home Office, John Bader, Director of Social Justice and Regeneration, Joanna Jordan, Acting Director of the Community Safety Unit, Welsh Assembly Government Ev 155 List of written evidence 1 Chairman of the Association of Chief Police Officers in Wales Ev Dyfed-Powys Police Ev North Wales Police Ev South Wales Police Ev Gwent Police Ev Home Office Ev Further written evidence from the Home Office Ev Ceredigion Community Safety Partnership Ev Denbighshire Community Safety Partnership Ev Monmouthshire Community Safety Partnership Ev Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council, Community Safety Partnership Ev Rhondda Cynon Taff Community Safety Partnership Ev Bridgend Community Safety Partnership Ev North Wales Criminal Justice Board Ev Dyfed Powys Criminal Justice Board Ev South Wales Criminal Justice Board Ev Gwent Criminal Justice Board Ev Nacro Cymru Ev Cardiff Women s Safety Unit Ev Victim Support Wales Ev Police Authorities of Wales Ev Police Federation of England and Wales Ev Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales 24 South Wales and Dyfed Powys Black Police Association Ev 387 Ev Audit Commission in Wales Ev 393

7 Police Service Crime and Anti-Social Behaviour in Wales 5 26 The National Crime Squad Ev National Criminal Intelligence Service Ev British Transport Police Ev Tenby Town Council Ev Tenby Walled Town Residents Association Ev Paul Flynn MP Ev Jocelyn Davies AM Ev Further written evidence from The Home Office Ev Welsh Local Government Association Ev Welsh Association of Community Safety Officers Ev Further written evidence from North Wales Police Ev 432 List of unprinted written evidence Additional papers have been received from the following and have been reported to the House but to save printing costs they have not been printed and copies have been placed in the House of Commons library where they may be inspected by members. Other copies are in the Record Office, House of Lords and are available to the public for inspection. Requests for inspection should be addressed to the Record Office, House of Lords, London SW1. (Tel ) hours of inspection are from 9:30am to 5:00pm on Mondays to Fridays. Tenby Town Council Appendices Rhondda Cynon Taff Appendices Bridgend Community Safety Partnership Annex National Criminal Intelligence Service Appendices Audit Commission in Wales Annex British Transport Police Appendices, B, C, and D

8 6 Police Service Crime and Anti-Social Behaviour in Wales Reports from the Welsh Affairs Committee since 2001 The following reports have been produced by the Welsh Affairs Committee in the 2001 Parliament. Session First Report Work of the Committee in 2004 HC 256 Second Report Manufacturing and Trade in Wales HC 329 i & ii Third Report Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill [HL] HC 234 Session First Special Report Government Response to the Fifth Report of Session , The Draft Public Audit (Wales) Bill Second Special Report Government Response to the First Report of Session , The Empowerment of Children and Young People in Wales Third Special Report Government Response to the Third Report of Session , The Provision of Rail Services in Wales Fourth Special Report Government Response to the Committee s Fifth Report of Session , The Powers of the Children s Commissioner for Wales Fifth Special Report First Report Government Response to the Committee s Fourth Report of Session , The Draft Transport (Wales) Bill The Empowerment of Children and Young People in England and Wales HC 87 HC 459 HC 708 HC 1126 HC 1252 HC 177 i & ii Second Report Work of the Committee in 2003 HC 178 Third Report The Provision of Rail Services in Wales HC 458 Fourth Report Draft Transport (Wales) Bill HC 759 Minutes of Evidence The Wales Office Annual Report 2004 HC 808 Session First Special Report Government Response to the First Report of Session , Broadband in Wales Second Special Report Government Response to the Second Report of Session , Transport in Wales Third Special Report Government Response to the Fourth Report of Session , The Primary Legislative Process as it affects Wales HC 413 HC 580 HC 989 First Report Broadband in Wales HC 95 Second Report Transport in Wales HC 205 Third Report Work of the Committee in 2002 HC 263

9 Police Service Crime and Anti-Social Behaviour in Wales 7 Fourth Report The Primary Legislative Process as it affects Wales HC 79 Fifth Report Draft Public Audit (Wales) Bill HC 763 Minutes of Evidence The Wales Office Departmental Report 2003 HC 883 Oral and Written Evidence Changes in Customs and Excise Operations in Wales HC 916 Session First Special Report Government Response to the First Report of Session , Wales in the World Second Special Report Response of the National Assembly for Wales to the First Report of Session , Wales in the World HC 270 HC 311 Third Special Report Response of the National Assembly for Wales to the HC 604 Third Report of Session , Social Exclusion in Wales Fourth Special Report Response of the Government and the Welsh Assembly HC 1169 Government to the Second Report of the Committee of Session , objective 1: European Funding for Wales Fifth Special Report The draft National Health Service (Wales) Bill: Response of the Government to the Third Report of the Committee of Session HC 1215 First Report The Children s Society in Wales HC 525 Second Report Objective 1 European Funding for Wales HC 520 Third Report The Draft National Health Service (Wales) Bill HC 959 Fourth Report The Children s Society in Wales: Responses from the Government and The Charity Commission to the First Report of the Committee of Session HC 989 Minutes of Evidence The Wales Office Departmental Report 2002: HC 1216

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11 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee on Wednesday 20 October 2004 Members present: Mr Martyn Jones, in the Chair Mr Martin Caton Mr Huw Edwards Dr Hywel Francis Julie Morgan Mrs Betty Williams Hywel Williams Mr Roger Williams Written evidence from Dyfed-Powys Police is printed on Page Ev 171 Witness: Chief Constable Terence Grange, Dyfed-Powys Police, examined. Q1 Chairman: Welcome, Chief Constable, to the Welsh AVairs Committee. Perhaps you could begin by introducing yourself for the record to the Committee? Chief Constable Grange: Terence Grange, Chief Constable, Dyfed-Powys Police and Chairman of the Welsh Association of Police OYcers. Chief Constable Grange: I think there is a classic misunderstanding of the complexities of policing somewhere rural. My background is I worked in the Metropolitan Police for sixteen years and then twelve years in Avon and Somerset, primarily central Bristol. Providing resources in a conurbation is easy. You have massive police stations, put all your oycers in just round the corner, and they cover one and half square miles, two square miles, four square miles. I have to cover two-thirds of Wales. I have a population of 488,000 spread out over two- thirds of Wales. We get 13 or so million visitors a year. To do that, I have 50 police stations with police oycers. The distance between Carmarthen police station and Pencader police station, for instance, is 29 miles. If you run up, not the coast road from Cardigan to Aberystwyth but the road ten miles in through Tregaron, until we opened a small police station in Tregaron there was not a police presence along that road for 50 miles. To attend things means you have to have vehicles, a lot more vehicles than you need elsewhere. It takes far longer. You have to have more buildings. We have just spent over 500,000 on a revamp wide area network because we have to have an IT network that encompasses two- thirds of Wales. It is not compact. The wiring itself costs a fortune, as does everything else. The maintenance of your fleet, your buildings, your relationships with others: it is all very expensive. The Committee will know that the Government partly acknowledged that some years back with the rural policing fund which my force put the paper in for, but they acknowledged the issue to the extent of one- third. Had they acknowledged it in full my force, which receives 2.6 million a year from the rural policing fund, would be getting 7.5 million. They attempted to give everybody some rural policing money. We ended up in the first tranche when the Met Police got some. Q2 Chairman: We have had some written evidence from you. Perhaps you could outline the main issues currently facing Dyfed-Powys Police? Chief Constable Grange: The main issues: low level public disorder associated with drinking; travelling criminals primarily from South Wales, mid- England; elderly rural population; fear of crime levels, far in excess of the reality of crime levels; funding diyculties. We are taking up a number of major projects from Government, all of which have to be in place in the next two years, but in terms of crime, social disorder, we are low volume, in terms of volume crime. Strangely enough, that breeds a high impact. If you do not get a lot of burglary when you get a burglary it has far more impact than if you lived in an area where burglary is rife. If you are not used to public disorder when you get public disorder it avects you more greatly. All the impact you would have on a rural area of rural roads, motor cyclists. Q3 Chairman: Being brutal in killing themselves? Chief Constable Grange: Born again motor bikers, I think they are called Bambies, the vernacular. People of my age and slightly younger who do not realise just how fast and how quickly a modern motor cycle will go, in evect, killing themselves on our roads. Those are our main issues. We have the drugs issue that everyone else has and of late we are noticing crack cocaine appearing in the area with startling frequency. Q4 Chairman: That is a very succinct rundown of your problems. We are aware, or course, that all four police forces in Wales are pretty good by most measures, but do you have any special issues regarding the rurality of the Dyfed-Powys area? Q5 Chairman: Do you have a helicopter service? Chief Constable Grange: We have one helicopter. We are currently

12 Ev 2 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence 20 October 2004 Dyfed-Powys Police Q6 Mrs Williams: The first in Wales, was it not? Chief Constable Grange: It was the first in Wales. We are currently in serious discussions with Gwent, South Wales, to combine our helicopter with theirs and have one helicopter unit covering southern Wales. That would produce eyciency savings in evect of stav and would probably be much more evective for South Wales than for us, but we are all in it together and frankly if you have the thing and South Wales need it you might as well send it there. me is that the Home OYce is very directive and is very keen on micro-management and sets constraints on what I can do as a manager for my force because it tells me how many stav Imust employ as police oycers, and soon how many I will employ as community support oycers. It, therefore, constrains any ability to move money around to meet the needs of my public, but I would say that. It is in the nature of people that they want to be slightly independent. I am trying to run my Force. I want to run it. I have trained my divisional commanders to take devolved responsibility and use it, in evect, until I get unsettled and ask them what they are doing because I actually believe that you should devolve authority down, but then you should audit what is going on so that you understand it and can ask the appropriate questions. There are tensions between me and my divisional commanders. I have given them their own finance managers, their own HR managers. I have given them complete control of their own personnel budgets bar 3% which I keep back in case of emergencies. They would like the 3%. I will happily rail against government controls, but it is in the nature of the beast. In the round it works quite well. I make my annual statement of independence and want more money, but it works quite well. Q7 Mrs Williams: I would like to discuss the national policing plan and its relevance to Wales with you, Mr Grange. What are the main drivers in determining policing priorities in Dyfed-Powys? I am thinking about the national policing plan, the national intelligence model, the community safety partnership. Are there any diverences in drivers and priorities amongst the basic command units within the force? Chief Constable Grange: No. It starts from top down and bottom up, if you will. The national policing plan is set by the Home OYce. The priorities and performance indicators that are given us to by the Home OYce we have to react to. We have no choice. We are measured against those things. The annual HMIC assessments and Audit Commission assessments are based on that. Therefore, we have to go along with it. In truth, some of the issues mirror the concerns of our public, but not all. At the other end, it starts with: we conduct surveys amongst our public. We do postal surveys. We have attended this year all the major county shows and fairs in the force area. We are setting up facilities at our major shopping centres and we are literally stopping the public and going through their concerns about policing in their area. We have a citizens panel with Carmarthen. The thousand people that could be contacted, we put questions through there. We are developing citizens panels with the other three counties. We have focus groups, or virtual focus groups, using IT across the area. We have an independent advisory group for minority ethnic issues. All of that provides us with an understanding of what the public would like us to do, then we balance them together and then we use the national intelligence model to guide us through what is a from my budget. There are now 29. morass of information against the priorities set by Government and by my police authority and then we deploy resources accordingly. Q8 Mrs Williams: Would you say there are tensions, conflicts between the force at the local level on the one hand and the force at a national level on the other? Chief Constable Grange: There are always tensions between local groups and the centre, if you will. There are tensions between my four BCU commanders and me. Last week we had a regular meeting to discuss performance and planning at which one of my Chief Superintendents put forward the theory that he was autonomous. I put forward the theory that I do not know anybody in the world that is autonomous. I pay you: you cannot be autonomous. I am not autonomous. The issue for Q9 Mrs Williams: What about at a national level? Chief Constable Grange: The Home OYce? The Home OYce sets the national policing plan, keeps back I would say an enormous amount of the funding that is for policing for its own plans. For instance, the crime fighting fund, which they provide the oycers, they provide the funding but you must keep the same number of oycers. There will be 24,000 police community support oycers. There is a premises improvement fund, which you must bid for. They have other bidding arrangements. In fact, there is a plethora of separate bidding arrangements that all forces are bidding for to get what are fairly minor amounts of money, but they are attached to some rigorous control and audit from the Home OYce. It is accurate, as I understand it, to say that when I became the Chief Constable the Home OYce had two places to go to for additional money apart Q10 Mrs Williams: My question was about tensions and conflicts. Are you calling that a tension, a conflict? Chief Constable Grange: I think it is a natural tension. There is always a tension between the centre and the local authority. The only way to deal with that is not devolve any authority. Even then you would have tension because people will want their own authority. It was what we have all been trained to do, but if you took a look at it over the long term those things exist. Yet we manage what we are required to do, in my case despite all the tensions between myself and the divisional commanders, myself and the Home OYce, and we have not discussed the Welsh Assembly yet, we have managed in my force area to increase the number of small police stations by five. We have increased resources

13 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 3 20 October 2004 Dyfed-Powys Police during my coming up five years in the force from million worth of money and property from them and 1,020 oycers to 1,186. Crime is still low. The public an awful lot more to come. At that level we are demanding but basically happy. There are voluntarily combined. The Policing Standards Unit tensions. There will always be tensions, but you at the Home OYce has examined that and as I should examine them over time and see the understand it is suggesting that is a model of outcomes and not get trapped into constant debates collaboration. We then went further and in all four about what are, in evect, in the round minor issues. forces engaged you understand that North Wales I could argue all day about the Government should operationally has nothing whatsoever to do with the give me the capital money so that I can use the estate rest of us. Everything comes east to west and west to strategy that my force has put together with experts east. There is no flow from North Wales into my or bid for 50,000 here for something that the force area at all, unless it goes into England and Government think I should do or not. In the round, comes round. Therefore, operationally we had little that all sorts itself out. The tensions are always there. to do with each other. In terms of drugs, harm It is part of the reality of life. reduction, education and dealing with communities and drugs, all four forces had an interest, so all four forces approached the Assembly through the Social Q11 Mrs Williams: The national police plan Justice Minister and she has funded much greater emphasises, does it not, the key themes for police involvement in schools and urged by us is community engagement and tackling anti-social funding much greater involvement from the health behaviour on the one hand and tackling organised service in Wales in drugs rehabilitation. At that crime and the terrorist threat on the other. How do level, it has been reasonably successful. It is my view you think that resources should be allocated and that within three or four years what we call used and how should police services be best operation Tarian, which is a drugs operation, will structured and managed in order to evectively evolve into what used to be the Welsh Regional address both areas I have mentioned? Crime Squad; it seems to be a natural development, Chief Constable Grange: Do you have a whole day? but this time it will be controlled by the four Welsh Seriously organised crime: within the Force, I have chief constables, should we still exist. my own surveillance unit: 18 oycers highly trained to conduct surveillance. If we have, using the national intelligence model level 1, criminals who Q12 Mrs Williams: You say it is well structured and need surveying or intrusive surveillance, that is the it is well managed? use of technology to listen to what they are doing or Chief Constable Grange: That one is, yes. In terms photograph what they are doing, I have the of anti-social behaviour; that is primarily a very equipment. I have the people. I can authorise it and local thing and best managed very locally. The we are very successful at it. I can give you examples. legislation that has been produced of late has been Seriously organised crime that crosses force helpful, in my view somewhat too muchenthusiasm boundaries: I would say that over the past eight, nine to view young people and children as trouble rather years since the formation of the National Crime than children needing to be protected. I should Squad that has become more complex because the point out my national responsibility is child National Crime Squad has become more and more protection and managing sex ovenders for the national until it became all but international, dealing police in England and Wales. I have a particular with the influx of foreign money, foreign drugs, view about legislation that keeps pointing itself at foreign nationals, traycking of women and children children as if they are a problem. I would argue that for exploitation purposes. That is where the national far too little is spent on child protection and far too crime squad have gone. There has been a yawning much on incarcerating them, but that is a diverent gap. In southern Wales, we went to the Assembly issue. In my force area, the local towns, the local and the Home OYce. The three Chief Constables got BCUs are engaged in regular discussion with town together and agreed that we needed to do something councils, community councils, County Councils, to about drugs coming in: primarily from Bristol, look at short-term palliatives for anti-social Cheltenham, Gloucester and Birmingham. My behaviour and long term arrangements. For argument was that it could be a problem for Gwent instance, Pembroke County Council, their and South Wales, but if they got the flu I would get environment health licensing and community a cold at least and eventually the flu would come my safety oycers are engaged with the Fire Service and way. We put together a team of 50-plus oycers with my stav in examining every outcome of drinking all the technology that you could wish for, part that can be examined in the whole of Pembroke in funded by the Assembly, a small contribution from terms of people going to hospital, people needing the Home OYce. We found accommodation for ambulances, damage on the streets, arrests. There is them in Bridgend End. We linked them with the a very wide range of information that has been British Transport Police and the Avon and Somerset gathered. Using geographic information systems police operation dealing with drug dealers, and with they put a footprint acrosspembroke,one of which Birmingham and Gloucester as and when necessary. is smack in the middle of Haverfordwest and within We set out to hunt down the people bringing drugs that footprint you are very unlikely to be allowed to into South Wales, again, pretty successfully. You have any more licensed premises. The interesting will never fully stop the flow. We have arrested test will be that the footprint sits right across The hundreds of people and in terms of eyciencies Shire House in Haverfordwest which the council between us I think we have seized getting on for 2.5 own and Wetherspoons want to buy. We are

14 Ev 4 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence 20 October 2004 Dyfed-Powys Police waiting to see whether the council sell it to safety will all be in the same building. So far as we Wetherspoons because according to their own and can see, that is the best example of shared working our analysis that should not happen. That takes you can get. The same applies in Pembroke with time to have evect. licensing and event management. Within Powys, I have just had lunch with the new Chief Executive. Q13 Mrs Williams: To what extent do you have to There is a strong commitment there. They have cut back on the services you would like to implement issues about their structure as three small shires and because of national imperatives? Powys itself, but if I were to be critical it would be Chief Constable Grange: I do not think we have. No, outside the County Council. I do not think the I would argue we have not. The national imperative health authorities have ever really engaged in the for the last four years has been put more police issue, but you have to be sympathetic to their oycers on the street which has enabled us to increase constraints. If you are the Chief Executive of a the services we provide. The diyculty is whether you health authority your major concern is the can see that continuing because once you have performance indicators given you by government. opened a police station you cannot close it without Therefore, working in partnership with the police on a lot of diyculty. We have, over the last four years, something, which is not one of your PIs, is going to opened half a dozen extra police stations. We are get less important for you, but I would say that from getting technology, automatic number plate my councils we were building up shared data retrieval systems which because of the extra stav we information sets, we get funding contributions. are able to put stav to, during the Royal Welsh Show Carmarthenshire have contributed towards the we seized 130,000 worth of stolen caravans using employment of police community support oycers that technology and resources provided. I and Pembroke and Powys are considering it. understand the argument that hypothetically government imperatives will impact on what you are doing, but the government imperative on terrorism, Q16 Dr Francis: If I could reverse the question and in truth, does not avect my force to that great an ask you: if the partners were there instead of you extent. We have plans for terrorism, but you have to answering these questions what would they say they acknowledge the reality that the terrorist will look were not getting out of the partnership? for a big bang. It is a wicked joke but if they actually Chief Constable Grange: I would think they want put some dangerous gases down in central Wales it police presence on the streets almost to order. I would be two weeks before anybody noticed. They would think they would want financial commitment do it in CardiV and they do it at Milford Haven and from police. We are able to commit human resources we make plans for that, but it has not impacted on and, if you like, estates resources for things, but the delivery of services. finance is diycult for us. We did at one stage have a community safety challenge fund, which our The Committee suspended from to 4.09 for a divisional commanders could use for community division in the House safety issues. That has been taken away by me because the divisions now receive funding direct Q14 Dr Francis: If we could move on to community from Government to do exactly the same thing. safety partnerships then: which of the partners pull Therefore, they do not need two sets of funding. I their weight in the partnership and which do not? was able to defray the council tax that year because Chief Constable Grange: My four authorities? My we had funding, but I suspect it would be financial view is they all pull their weight to various levels. contributions. What we trade in is providing people You have to accept that in certain parts people are and evort. more able to engage than in others, but so far as my authority is concerned we have thriving partnerships with all four. We have more developed partnerships Q17 Dr Francis: In your evidence in paragraph 4.8 in Carmarthen and Pembroke, but that is because you discuss the impact of partnership on the safer earlier investment was made. That does not mean county strategy. Could you say more about the that Powys and Ceredigion are not committed to it. specific role of partnership in tackling anti-social behaviour in Dyfed-Powys and reducing the fear of Q15 Dr Francis: If I could ask the question crime and changing perceptions? diverently then: what would you like to get out of the Chief Constable Grange: Paragraph 4.8? partnerships which you are not getting out of it at the moment? Chief Constable Grange: From the County Councils Q18 Dr Francis: 4.8 I think it is. Safer Counties. I think we get a great deal. Remember, the Chief Constable Grange: Safer Counties is the partnerships should be wider than that. From the construct of the force. In order to do performance councils, certainly we get shared ownership of management properly you have to be clear about problems. Pembroke County Council, Carmarthen what performance you are trying to manage. County Council are demonstrably sharing Therefore, you can work out what performance problems. Within Carmarthen where we are shortly indicators. We devised our own programme: Safer to commence the design of a community safety Counties. There are six separate boxes into which we building in Crosshands in which the council, the fit all the performance measures we need to achieve. police, probation and other partners in community Could you repeat the latter part of that question?

15 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 5 20 October 2004 Dyfed-Powys Police Q19 Dr Francis: We were talking about tackling Chief Constable Grange: There are national anti-social behaviour in Dyfed-Powys and reducing performance indicators which every force gathers. the fear of crime and changing perceptions of crime. They can be turned to use for every division. If you Chief Constable Grange: The way we are attempting set out to construct a response to an anti-social to do that is partly through the Safer Counties behaviour issue in a small part of the force area, and programme. It is an attempt to demonstrate to I am thinking the mount estate in Pembrokeshire people through local engagement with them, was one where they had diyculties with young through providing them with information, through people, the local people, the local council, the local showing them the performance of the force, that police together worked out a solution and together things are not quite as bad as they believe they are. worked out their own performance outcomes, what The diyculty is they are measuring things according they would see as success. You do not necessarily do to what they see in the national newspapers and the that in other parts because it is dependent on that Western Mail, set alongside local newspapers problem and a long term outcome. There are staged because they must report every minor incident in measures of performance. Where have we got to in their area and then suggest they are major incidents. terms of the amount of anti-social behaviour, the It is interesting to me that I think it was Felinfoel amount of damage, the noise nuisance, and their recently I received a letter from the council performance measures as I understand it were a suggesting that Felinfoel had become like the Bronx. staggered decrease and the community felt safer and The Bronx is in New York. I think one person a week much more of a community. You would do that for is shot there. Felinfoel has one incident of minor very local issues, but on top of that you have the criminal damage every three or four days, but the national PRs which everybody works to. public seem to think that that is an indicator of the wrath to come and their measurement of how society Q22 Chairman: You mentioned Pembroke, Chief has gone wrong seems to be built round what they Constable. We had some interesting evidence to the read in the papers and some minor incidents which I Committee from Tenby, which you may or may not would have to say get magnified. Having worked in be aware of, both from Tenby Council and I think a three forces, including this one, I can say with group of residents, who are deeply unhappy about confidence that there is nowhere in Dyfed-Powys I the policing of Tenby. Do they have any community would not feel safe leaving the car. We have one safety partnerships there or do you work with local burglary in Ceredigion area every third day. It is people? diycult to suggest that society in Dyfed-Powys is Chief Constable Grange: Indeed, they do. It starts falling apart when you get a burglary a day, but that with Pembroke County Council and the work on is what we get; domestic burglary. Shed breaks we licensing that applies across Pembroke County. I get two a day. understand the argument from Tenby Town Council. I would point out and I have no doubt Q20 Dr Francis: If we look again at the partnerships: you have copies of press cuttings from August 2004 is there anything in the structures or the procedures where recounts of the Mariners Night Club being that you think could be improved to facilitate better opened and music is loud at I would have to working relationships between tiers of government, say: yes, it is and it is a night club, but you police, other agencies in delivering better opened it. If it is noisy, take it up with the council, partnership initiatives? but I have also a press cutting from 1954 which says Chief Constable Grange: I think information sharing exactly the same things. The issue for Tenby is that it is at the heart of it. Every organisation should be is a small town, that it is a holiday resort that became able to access its information and should, in a advertised for hens and stag parties, has a great controlled environment, be prepared to share that deal of licensed premises and is suvering the information so that you can work out together what consequences. Its resolution, and I have seen the are the issues and then work out together with the document, is that the police should do something people concerned how to resolve them. We have about it. If we are engaged in a community diyculty with information sharing because the Data partnership then all parts of that partnership should Protection Act is put up as a problem. Read properly do something about it. The council and the police it is not. Twelve years ago when I worked in Avon do. The council, for instance, and the police, using and Somerset in Taunton Deane, every social the evidence gathered, examining all the information service, by that I mean the police, health, on licensing stopped an extra pub being opened in ambulance, education, Social Services, probation, Tenby. The solicitors for the company that wanted shared all our information on to a geographic to open took a look at the evidence we gave them information system. We managed it in a small part and decided not to apply, but the people that run the of Somerset 12 years ago; we are still struggling premises in Tenby they have a part in it too, and our with it. study of Pembroke suggested that in allocating resources, and we have a means of allocating resources that is exceedingly thorough in its Q21 Dr Francis: Could I finally ask one question examination of everything that would indicate about performance indicators. You devised your where resources should be allocated. We called in an own you say; when you say you is that the police external company called Occupational Research in or was that the partnership, and are those Health which assisted ambulance authorities across performance indicators comparable to other forces? the country to place ambulances to study a patrol

16 Ev 6 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence 20 October 2004 Dyfed-Powys Police strategy for us and help us allocate resources. We then apply what occurs daily, weekly, monthly, to that to, if necessary, reallocate resources. In terms of Pembroke, Tenby is the fourth priority; they think that they are the first but everybody does. It is the case that in July this year following on from four months of clear evidence that criminality was increasing in Llanelli, we redeployed eleven constables to Llanelli. We took two from Pembroke, two from Powys, two from Ceredigion and the remainder from force headquarters. It was carefully thought through. I have to say I understand what Tenby are saying, but suggesting the police are the answer to all your problems suggests to me you have not thought through the problems properly. Q23 Mr Williams: Can I apologise for being away from the Committee for a time. Perhaps now we can look at the way the force tackles anti-social behaviour and reduces violent crime. Can you tell us perhaps what the priority operational crime and disorder problems are that avect the force and where does anti-social behaviour sit within those priorities? Chief Constable Grange: The priorities for the force: burglary, car crime, anti-social behaviour because they are government priorities and the public are concerned about them. Anti-social behaviour fits in on a par with both burglary and car crime. Q24 Mr Williams: In your evidence that you have given to us in paragraph you indicate that there is an intention to create a delay or a scheduled response to calls relating to anti-social behaviour. That perhaps does not give an indication that you put anti-social behaviour on the same level as car crime. Chief Constable Grange: That tends to depend on the incident; when we open up our new communication centre all calls will be taken there. What people need to understand is that well over 50% of the calls about anti-social behaviour are not calls that the police deal with, therefore, we would not attend. Where there is anti-social behaviour that merits police attendance then it will be attended, but a lot of it is about matters that the council deal with or another body deals with. The expectation is that we will send somebody and then generate the response. There is a limit to that because we cannot be the answer to every issue. An awful lot of the issues the public now raise are matters the council deal with. For instance, Carmarthen County Council has taken over all responsibility for parking enforcement. Many of our calls for anti-social behaviour are about parking and the use of cars. They are no longer our responsibility because the council does it. It is about fires. We do not deal with them. Where we are responsible we will deal with it, but bear in mind that when we do open the Communication Centre properly the ambulance and fire service will actually be in the building so the delayed response will be better managed. Q25 Mr Williams: You seem to be passing the responsibility of a number of anti-social incidents on to other organisations or partners within the partnerships, but for instance if I give you a case that concerns me. It is Ystradgynlais Rugby Club where the young people or whatever are in the club, but then come on to the streets when they are no longer the responsibility presumably of the club. The public complain to me that the police do not respond as quickly as they should to concerns at 11, 12 o clock at night which are giving them a considerable amount of concern. Chief Constable Grange: What they are complaining about is that people have been in Ystradgynlais Rugby Club drinking all night and on their way home they are noisy; people are. Q26 Mr Williams: But more than noisy? Chief Constable Grange: There are very few reports of damage, very few reports of things being tipped over. Mainly these people are noisy, they have woken me up, I feel harassed. Yes we attend and yes we speak to the people concerned, but it is a function of human society that when people go out drinking and leave at they are noisy. If you have a rugby club and you live next door to it, I am afraid up to a point you have to accept some noise when they leave. If it goes past noise to intimidation or harassment then they get a police presence and people get arrested. We have been using fixed penalty notices with a will across the force area to deal with that kind of behaviour. In fact, Powys for some strange reason was one of the 87 urban areas that conducted the licensing scheme the government ran this year. I have no idea how. I just got told Powys was involved. It struck me as odd, but they did it very successfully. There is this thing about anti-social behaviour. It is in your definition. People that are noisy are anti-social. They do not think they are and they are not actually committing a crime. There is a limit to police saying to people, You can stop being noisy or we will arrest you, because we do not have the power to do that, and arguably nor should we. Q27 Mr Williams: Would you not agree with me that a police presence would actually deter quite a lot of anti-social behaviour? Chief Constable Grange: Indeed, it would, but I would suggest that if you counted the number of rugby clubs, pubs, other clubs and licensed premises in my force area, it would be greater than the number of police oycers. We cannot literally be present at every location. What we do is work out where there are most likely to be problems, where the problems are persistent and locate ourselves there, and it is a gradation of problems. For instance, through the summer on Friday night and Saturday night we put extra resources into Llanelli and Tenby because we anticipated problems. In fact, the oycers that went to Tenby were bored out of their minds because not a lot happened, in their eyes, but the public thought there were problems. On that scale, with the best will in the world Ystrogyunlais, Newcastle Emlyn, et cetera, would not get permanent police presence outside all their licensed premises because the reality is in Newcastle Emlyn alone you have premises three miles apart. There are, at best, two oycers on nights there. You cannot cover them all so you choose.

17 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 7 20 October 2004 Dyfed-Powys Police Chairman: Can I bring Mr Edwards in and then Mrs Q31 Mr Williams: Perhaps you could tell us what are Williams on this specific point. the main impediments to using anti-social behaviour orders in Wales? Chief Constable Grange: There are not any real Q28 Mr Edwards: When you say resources, could impediments to using them. When it began the that include community support oycers and would impediment was the classic: nobody understood that they be involved in having a presence, say, at people were frightened of using them. The same on a Friday night? thing applied to sex ovender orders when they came Chief Constable Grange: In Llanelli we now have out, but people got the hang of them. A few solicitors eleven community support oycers and they are on working for police authorities understood how to patrol down the main licensed premises streets of get them successfully and it spread round the Llanelli nearly every single night of the week way country. There have been no impediments in any past closing time, but the only place we presently part of my force area. There was, in my view, a have community support oycers is Llanelli. We marked unwillingness in Powys to use them with have a bid in for extra resources. We bid for 50. We youth ovending team dubious about them and the are not getting 50, but 3/5ths of whatever we get go magistracy unwilling. There has been one classic into Pembrokeshire. The other 2/5ths are going to example in Welshpool where I think we made three Carmarthenshire for this year. Then next year bids for one and we got it on the third. In the interim, starting in April bids will go in for Powys and the kiddie concerned, of course, had I am told Ceredigion. Remember there are 20,000 to be caused something like 50,000 worth of extra dispersed around the country. We will get our damage and misery. reasonable share of them. Q32 Mr Williams: That must have been the only one Q29 Mrs Williams: You talk about anticipating in Powys because there is only one. problems. Can I ask you a question and ask whether Chief Constable Grange: Strangely enough that is there are any statistics that you collected to answer the one. my question really? If there is a planning application being put forward for, shall we say, a block of flats Q33 Mr Williams: You also say there is a confusion for elderly people and you discover that there is a over a shared definition of anti-social behaviour. Is club or two clubs in the vicinity and you anticipate there any progress to achieving a common definition that there will be problems similar to the one we of anti-social behaviour amongst the forces in have been talking about, then you put your Wales? recommendation to the Planning Authority, do you Chief Constable Grange: You could have one keep a record of how often the Planning Authority amongst the forces in Wales. We could all have our listens to your advice because you are able to look definition of anti-social behaviour. The reality for into the future and thinking this is going to cause the public is anti-social behaviour is in what you major problems in the community? perceive as a member of the public. People have no Chief Constable Grange: We definitely do it the other memory of what they did when they were young. way round. Any attempt to change a licence or have Things they did when they were young are now a new licence or build new premises, we keep records deemed to be anti-social behaviour and deserving of of everything we have said about it. In terms of a an ASBO. I will quote one example. I do not know council building, sheltered homes, they would not what you call knocking on doors and running away necessarily consult us. They just build. If we noticed, where you were but where I was brought up it was and naturally we would, and there were licensed called knockdown ginger. Now it is called urban premises there we would mention it, but I do not terrorism and people react to it far more so than think we would keep detailed records of something they used to. Words are used about it that are much like that. We tend to keep records of licensing stronger than they used to be and it becomes anti- applications not other people s development. You social behaviour. would keep records of every property that went up because it is not just sheltered accommodation for Q34 Mr Williams: Sorry to butt in. Surely the point the elderly where people complain. Virtually is that it is not what the public think is antisocial everybody complains. behaviour, it is what the force is and how it defines it if it is going to use anti-social behaviour orders and implement them. It has to have some idea of what Q30 Mrs Williams: I need to check that, Mr type of behaviour it should apply to and how it can Chairman. I will come back to you on that because be used within the new measures. I have an example in my constituency where it did Chief Constable Grange: Indeed, that is true. Then happen and the police did give sound advice and the you would have to convince others to do it, but there local Planning Authority ignored it but they were is such a wide range of things that can be and consulted. I am finding it strange that you were not are anti-social behaviour, running through from in Dyfed-Powys. drunkenness, noisiness, intimidating the local Chief Constable Grange: It is not within my public, behaviour on council and other premises that knowledge that we are; I would have to make that upsets everybody, but if you actually try to list every clear. If it is done it is done very locally but it would single thing that somebody could do to annoy their not come through my oyce. neighbours and become worthy of an anti-social