Minutes Charter Review Committee Subcommittee Meeting on Recall March 15, Present: Billy Cheek, Mike Upshaw, Jorge Urbina, and David Zoltner.

Transcription

1 Minutes Charter Review Committee Subcommittee Meeting on Recall March 15, 2017 After determining that a quorum was present, the Subcommittee on Recall for the Charter Review Committee of the City of Denton, Texas convened in a meeting on Wednesday, March 15, 2017, at 5:00 p.m., in the Finance Conference Room, 215 E. McKinney St., Denton, Texas to consider the charge of giving direction regarding potential changes to the recall provisions in the Denton City Charter. Present: Billy Cheek, Mike Upshaw, Jorge Urbina, and David Zoltner. Absent: Erin Clegg, Colette Johnson, Ron Johnson Staff: Vernell Dooley, Theresa Jaworski, Sarah Kuechler REGULAR MEETING Mike Upshaw called the meeting to order at 5:05 p.m. 1. Receive a report, hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding potential changes to the Denton City Charter related to recall provisions. Upshaw Asked for thoughts on the discussion of recalls and percentages. Any thoughts as to what threshold? I think the general consensus is the threshold is a little too low at this point in light of the recall on Joey and Kevin. Regardless of why one thinks they should be recalled whether that s an appropriate threshold standard to move forward under. Are there any thoughts as to what we want to move things to? Zoltner I have come full circle since we first brought this up earlier in meetings. Initially, there was some discussion on a fixed percentage of registered voters. The more I think about that, I really think that we are not that far off here in Denton right now from where we need to be, with Joey s situation, notwithstanding. I really don t want to go down that road where we have to start making phone calls to the City elections and County elections folks. Is there such a disconnect between the 15,000 registered voters and how many are actually turning up in Denton? So I really don t want to go down that road and have come full circle back to something close to where we are now. This is just my thinking. I think the only time we would really have had a problem would have been Joey in 2015 with only 300 votes, a low threshold of 88 signatures for a recall election and then the only other time prior to that, would have been Kevin Roden, in 2013 with only 200 votes total, a 50 signature threshold. So I think those are both, being sympathetic to Joey, probably not a good idea. So I m kind of coming back to some of the other cities in the backup we were given and I m just going to throw this out. This is just for discussion, I think we need to bump that. We would have had no problem with any of the at-large elections. It would take at least 1,000 signatures in any of the other at-large elections, going back as far as Say 30% up from 25%, could be 35%, but let s say 30% of the way it s actually worded now. Some of these other

2 cities have had it kind of confused about the total number of votes cast in the election but Denton has made it fairly clear that at least 25% of the number of votes cast for that council member or that place and all the opponents in the preceding general municipal election which was counted. I m okay with that. What we might do, I m going to throw out 30% with also the possibility that some of these single member districts, if there s an unopposed candidate, some of these have a minimum threshold where it takes at least 150 votes. Upshaw Like an alternative minimum. Zoltner - It could be an alternative minimum, similar to Frisco and Plano. 30% of each of those cast but in no event less than 150 petitioners. So I like that and I m coming back to where we are. I don t think we have as much to think about here as we might have, initially. Urbina I also have come around to where we are using a double factor. Based on the votes, we can only say, much like you said, we are looking for at least this number but no less than this number, which is a factor that we come up with, based on total number of registered voters. This is what was discussed and we also discussed total population. But if we look at the numbers just for votes cast, it s a false number, if we are going to be allowing it where there is no second candidate running. If just one person is running, we re going to get those 200 totals and that s going to be a real easy thing to beat and we re paying money every time we have one of these recall elections. A double standard will ensure we have a minimum factor to bump it up to say, no less than this amount and that could be based arbitrarily on a ten percent of the total registered voters, it would bump up the number, or five percent even. Right now, we ve gotten locked in between 15,000 to 20,000 registered voters. Zoltner There s such a disconnect here between this number of registered voters and the number of votes cast. Urbina - I know. And I have to have two factors in my mind to make it work. We don t want it too low but we don t want it too high. The high one is the critical one in my mind, not to force too big an issue where we re not allowing the populace to say, we don t like this guy or this woman. We need to get her out, we re going to recall. But that s where it is in my mind, based on the higher number. It s easy to come up with the voting number. We have the numbers you know, that s an easy number to go out and get a petition signed. That was in the February 15 meeting that we got those numbers from But then the total number of registered voters is an arbitrary number. Zoltner Yes. It s a soft number. It s moving all the time. Urbina That s still a number we can lock into a factor. Upshaw Yes. I agree. I think maybe moving up the percentage somewhat to where, when there is a contested election, it gives us a higher threshold but then having a lower minimum would be just a pick. A number that would at least give us this many people in the community to get behind this thing to spend all that money and trouble and put somebody else through another campaign that they would need to raise money for.

3 Zoltner I just don t think we are that far off. Cheek I don t like the hard numbers, I like percentages because of the growth. Urbina Percentages are also going to be able to move. Cheek - Otherwise, we d be updating the Charter every ten years. Upshaw- There is some sort of basis for that. We re on the same wheelhouse but we need to formulize some recommendations. Zoltner What kind of a percentage are you looking at? Ubina If we re looking at the numbers in the districts, not looking at so much at-large conditions but just looking at the districts, we re looking at 20,000 registered voters. So, it depends on the upper limit we want to place. Doesn t matter if it s 20 or 30 or 15 thousand. We have one District 1 that has 15,000 registered voters. So ten percent is 1500 votes or 1500 signatures on that recall, if we go by that upper limit, not less than. But if we put a minimum in there and we say but not less than 15 that might be tough, when we have only 140 people vote. But it s not unreasonable to ask somebody that s going to force... how much did you say it cost for a recall election? About $17,000? Dooley Yes approximately. Aaron had mentioned that. Urbina For somebody to go out and get 1,000 or 1500 signatures to say we d like to place this recall on the ballot. Whereas, it s ridiculous to ask for 50, only 50, because that s a snap. But whether or not to go 1500 or bring it down to five percent is where I m looking at my margin, my factor between five and ten. And that places it where it s at least manageable, not too much of a hardship but still not so easy that they can get it on the ballot. Zoltner So, would you say, not less than or more? Because if you say ten percent of 15,000, that s 1500 people which would be five times the number of people that even voted the first time. Urbina That s correct. But there s 15,000 people that can sign their names on that recall petition. It s just a matter of not making it too hard and I think 1500 is a little tough, in my mind, on some of the districts. Shouldn t be too hard where there s 5,000 voters. Again if we re looking at five percent and now we re looking at 750 votes, that gets closer to the bottom end to it and that s easier to get it but still more than voted. I agree with you. So if we go with the factor that says, not less than this amount, whether you want to call it for the signature of those who actually voted or people that actually voted that number. It s going to be tough because in most districts, we re at about 220 and 220 signatures is pretty simple, in my mind, to go out and canvass a neighborhood. Cheek I don t think we really want it to be simple to recall someone.

4 Urbina Yeah. 220 signatures is nothing. I can go out to my family and get 20 of those. But I like the idea of two factors. Upshaw So the greater of the percentage of the votes cast or percentage of the registered voters. Urbina But not less than this percentage of registered voters. And I think the easiest way is to just sit down and play with some numbers. It seemed like it started working into a range of between five and ten percent of registered voters is a pretty reasonable number but it would be closer to about 750 in three of our districts. Upshaw That s reasonable. I think also, if you ve got one of these situations where one did run unopposed and a lot of people not participating in the municipal election just because whoever is in their district is not opposed. If that person does becomes a problem, having some sort of recall threshold where they can be signatories to it in the situation you re pointing out there. It would enable them to recall their representative who is doing a blatantly poor job, if they can get that done. Is that what you re thinking? Cheek Registered voters in that election. Upshaw Yes. Urbina Now on the other side, I had a little problem figuring out the minimum because of the fact that we have so few voted. That s why I said that in my opinion, we need to factor two numbers because then, you look at 50% of who voted, now we re looking at 200 people. That s a difference of about 500. Not cumbersome but a little less likely to cause a runoff, unless people take an issue and start signing. Zoltner Okay. Just give me some real numbers here. Let s just take Roden and Doyle Cain had 520 votes between the two of them. Let s say one of the two elected was up for recall so give me what you re thinking. Urbina I would say 50% of who voted in that district. 50% would be about 250. Zoltner Okay 50% would be about 250 or what. Urbina Okay. But before we go to that next leap of faith to the second factor, take one district that s a little bit larger in numbers. I m looking at Zoltner I m looking at single member. Mostly these at-large deals that are going to take care of themselves. Urbina I m looking at the districts. In 2016, we had 561 votes cast. If we look at 50%, that would be 280. Cheek That would be more like 1400.

5 Urbina That number is 50% of the votes cast. Zoltner Except in Those were at-large rates. So they actually had them broken down by district and you would be looking at 5800 or 5900 or Mayor was 4700 so, you re looking at 6,000 votes on Place 5. So you re not looking at District 1. Urbina - But we also look at that second factor is that would limit us to that five percent of registered voters. Now factor that one to the first one you gave me. What would that come out to? Zoltner Last year, Place 5 was: Armintor, Dalton Gregory, Ortiz with over 5856 votes between the five candidates. Urbina Oh. You re looking at the total combined votes. Zoltner Well, that s the way it s got to be by our deal here. They re broken down by districts on this chart here. Urbina I was thinking in terms of the minimum being 50% of that district vote. Why are we giving the whole community the right to do a recall? Zoltner We re not. The Charter says it s only those who cast votes for that council member. Dooley He s referencing the at-large position not the single district. Zoltner The way it s presented here is a little confusing because there s either at-large or single member. Urbina So maybe we will need to have a determining third factor as to whether its single member or at-large. Upshaw I think whatever it is, the standard will apply. Our at-large districts, the number for the thresholds going to be sufficient that it s not going to be a problem. They ll still have to have an onerous amount of people sign up to have the votes cast. Zoltner 30% of 5800 is already a good size with a lot of signatures. I think the at-large elections are pretty well covered. The single members have the lowest votes. The only two on there that would really be a problem were the 208 votes for Roden and Hawkins. Upshaw This only comes up in single member districts where there s people unopposed. So we need to figure a one size fits all scenario that addresses all and doesn t make it too onerous where we must have some huge number of registered voters, but will bring everyone together. Zoltner I think so too.

6 Upshaw In your proposed scenario, they would need to have signatures from people who actually voted in that but had to be number based. Urbina Yes. At least a number. Upshaw You might have a situation where you have an alternative threshold but no one could meet it because there weren t that many who voted in that particular election. So standard thus far has been one of percentage of actual votes cast. I think if we put an alternative minimum based on the number of registered voters, we have to open it up to those who registered, but didn t vote in that election. Urbina That s why I was going with the idea of a percentage based on votes cast and a percentage based on registered voters. It s this number but not more this number. Upshaw But then you create an alternative minimum situation. So, it has to be this number. Urbina Has to be at least this number. Upshaw But that threshold is something that s above the number of votes actually cast and that threshold can never be reached. Urbina That s the problem. Not enough people voted because they didn t care in the fact that one was just running and that caused the grief. Upshaw I know just picking a number is not popular but, to just throw it out there, how many signatures should there be to actually take this thing seriously? Is the number 1,500 or 2,000 to effectuate that? Cheek Hate to give it a hard number. The City will be revisiting this. Upshaw Forgetting that aspect for now, just taking it at something that might work for now. Urbina That would be about 7.5% for three of our single districts. In terms of total number of registered voters and look at numbers instead of percentages. But if we look at the percentage, we are still looking at a factor that I thought would work, somewhere between five and ten. It is where we should ask the people to go out and find people that are willing to sign their petition. Cheek If we have a council person that is doing serious enough damage to recall them, in my opinion, you should be able to get 400 or 500 people, easily. People might have disagreed with Kevin or Joey but they weren t coming at your soul s stuff on the doorsteps, as far as we know. Urbina Again, if we look at the numbers we re in that range, just calling it 50 percent. If we call it 40 percent, it would lower it to the 500, as a percentage. Upshaw If for some reason the number of votes cast does not equal a certain percentage of registered voters, should we require some sort of super majority of the votes cast in that situation,

7 instead? Let s say 30% is the standard in a typical situation. If the number of votes cast is less than the alternative minimum you stated as the percentage of the registered voters, it kicks in that a super majority or different percentage of the votes cast must be reached to qualify for a recall. Not going outside of the actual voter base, just requiring more of them. Urbina What was that city you referenced? Plano? The one closer to the model. Zoltner I m just working the math backwards. Another District 1 election will be this next year. Let s say it went from 208 votes in 2013 up to 520, two years ago. Let s say 750 District 1 votes which is historically, the lowest turnout. Let s say 750 District 1 votes this spring. Of those 750 District 1 votes, how many do you think it should take to recall. Give me a number, and I ll work backwards into the math. Should it be twice that? Of 750 total votes, say there s two candidates: one gets elected, one screws up and there were 750 votes total cast. Just what kind of number do you think it will take? Upshaw I think even with 750 votes cast, I d like to see about 500 people committed to this thing. That s why I think a super majority of votes cast is like kicking in maybe if the number of votes cast is less than a percentage of registered voters. Sort of that calculation with alternate standards if the number of votes is less. Cheek Conceptually, are you trying to say, because they didn t show up, they don t get a voice? I don t have a problem with that position but is that what you guys are saying? Urbina To answer your question and address yours, in my mind, we really need to consider not who voted. In other words, it s open to anybody in that district that can sign a petition because, they should have just as much say, I m sorry we elected this guy, I want to get him out and let him sign the petition to recall. I m not self-limiting that number but we had 15,000 registered voters at least last year in District 1 and only 208 people voted. I think the big question is where is our minimum? I looked at it and I studied that and thought 10% or 1,500, that s kind of onerous but five percent is not. For any one of our districts. That may be a number that at least I would call a starting point. Five percent of registered voters is where we need to look at the number and see how we word the minimum so that it s not 104 people, or 50% or 30% of the votes cast. Is that what it is right now? Dooley - It s 25% of the votes cast. Urbina So, 50 people could make that judgement call on recalls. Zoltner In all these other cities, when they talk about qualified voters, I think they are referring to those that were qualified to vote for the particular candidate that s recalled. So registered and qualified are different. And nowhere does it ever take more signatures to recall than were originally cast. That s my dilemma. Urbina Do we have that breakdown? I thought that was a number of registered voters per district.

8 Upshaw What I m hearing are three different questions we can look at. First: Should the petition be limited to actual voters? Qualified or registered? Second: Should an alternative minimum threshold be set based on the number of registered/qualified voters? Urbina And that s where I would agree that if we go with a minimum, then we just plug a number in there. At least 750 of 15,000 registered voters in District 1 have to sign this petition, but not more this amount. Or reverse that, if we want to make a better call for numbers. Upshaw Third: Should there be an alternative percentage of actual voters (for example, a super majority) if actual votes are less than five to ten percent of the number of registered/qualified voters? Dooley I can get some clarification from Aaron in Legal in reference to the qualified versus registered language. I believe it s more of what you were talking about, qualified meaning those who could vote for that person in the last election but will ask him to confirm. Urbina In the last election we had for example, if we use the 50% threshold of actual votes cast, 250 would be the minimum in District 1, not quite 1,000 in District 2, 800 in District 3 and about 850 in District 4. If we re looking at qualified being the voters that cast votes, not the specific voter but just that number of votes. Upshaw- I m getting the feeling that everybody doesn t care whether people actually voted or not. I would like to give some preference to people who bothered in the first place. Not to exclude the gripes of people who weren t there but it seems like we should give that some thought. In that case, if we do want to stick to actual voters, this might be a solution to just raise the percentage of actual voters with an alternative threshold being the number or percentage based on registered, actual, or qualified voters, that s something we still need to figure out. Cheek And, we do complicate it with the third option. Upshaw Yes. It does complicate it but it keeps it if we re really married to it and I m not. I m just putting this out there as some way of raising the threshold without having to introduce people who didn t vote in that election. If we are committed to the actual voters, that is something we can kick out there. Cheek As a reminder on the last recall, how many voters showed up? Dooley On the recall elections? Upshaw Wasn t on the same date as the re-election for Joey. Zoltner They were way over on signatures but he was very comfortable. He was 60-70% successful at turning it back. Only 88 signatures required for the recall and they had Upshaw To some degree, we need to realize that happened and it put a burden on those who run. It s on the candidate to shore up their seat. They have to get some real support.

9 Zoltner It was almost a joke with Chris when he ran unopposed for Mayor. He was campaigning out there to recall proof my election. Upshaw That recall sure shook things up. Zoltner I think our problem is the single number districts. I don t think we have an at-large problem here. I really don t. Upshaw I think those will be fine. We need to make sure that whatever our solution is, it is a one size fits all. Zoltner I don t want separate rules for at-large versus single districts. Upshaw We have some things to think about. Things we should talk about next time. Maybe talk about actual voters versus registered voters. Action Item: Determine if there is a difference between qualified voters versus registered voters (as referenced in comparable community charters) and get numbers of voters. Dooley I ll get with legal for clarification on what that means. Upshaw If you guys want to come up with some proposed language or at least bullet points on an ideal situation you d like to see so we can kick them around to see if we are on the same page or within spitting distance of each other and get this thing wrapped up pretty quick. Ubina I didn t think it would be this cumbersome for us to look at simply the votes cast, not the votes that are available in this district to bring it forward. And the second thing, I believe would be self-limiting would be not using percentages I know we can figure a marginal factor or two which might be better or easier to control. Zoltner If it might help a little bit, I went to the County Election site for the results. If we can make copies of the actual numbers, this might help if you want to plug in the vote totals and the people that ran and actual results before we get too far into the weeds. Dooley There was a bit of discrepancy from the County website to what the County ed as totals. For instance, that day they said 520, now they ve since changed it to 528. Zoltner Well they took some of the early votes out and some were absentees. The County website is pretty close. Upshaw That would be good for information purposes. Dooley I can definitely work on this for you. Can I make a copy? Zoltner Yeah. That s my homework, go ahead.

10 Urbina Are there any other subcommittees kicking up? Dooley Not at this time. The Stipend Subcommittee will possibly wrap up tonight. The Ethics Subcommittee will start at some point. That is up to the Chair and the rest of the committee to decide. But we re trying to mitigate the number of subcommittees we have. I think from what I m getting from you guys, we may be looking at one more meeting, then see how it goes. Cheek Don t see a lot of yellin and spittin going on here, so I think we can come up with a pretty quick recommendation. Upshaw I think everybody recognizes there are issues that we need to deal with. But whether for or against, we all feel accountability and democratic involvement is important. Particularly in regard to the way people perceive our municipal government. Want to be sure we give the people a chance to get out there. Urbina I agree. Try to get the numbers where we are for the past few years and see how they level out. Because I can see a percentage working. I just don t want it to be too onerous but not too easy. Somewhere in the middle is what we re shooting for and if each one of us come up with our own numbers, we can match them. Zoltner I m sympathetic to Joey s situation for sure but I don t want to jack this up so far that everybody becomes recall proof. Urbina I agree. Zoltner There was one successful recall 20 years ago and it was justified. Just don t want to recall everybody. Upshaw I don t think anyone wants that. Does someone want to move to adjourn? Zoltner So move. Ubina I second the motion. Meeting adjourned at 5:48 p.m.