INTERVIEW WITH TRIVIMI VELLISTE, 1989

INTERVIEW WITH TRIVIMI VELLISTE, 1989 Trivimi Velliste was President of the Heritage Society. In 1989, he spent three weeks in the United States speaking to congressmen, administration officials, members of the press, students and academicians. The following are selected questions and answers from a lecture given in English by Mr. Velliste on September 19, 1989, at George Washington University in Washington D.C. The lecture was entitled, Current and Future Developments in Estonia." Trivimi Velliste: Questions and Answers Many analysts believe that unrest in the Baltic could undermine Mikhail Gorbachev and his program of reform. In your view, do Baltic movements threaten Gorbachev and perestroika? No, I don't think so. I think there is a widespread misconception that if Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians behave like good schoolboys, then that would be very favorable for Gorbachev and he can go on with his perestroika. On the contrary, I believe that if Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians get their independence sooner rather than later, then this would help to make the whole situation more stable. Gorbachev's position would be stronger, not weaker, from a political and economic point of view. The cheese and cream and milk that would flow from an independent, free-market Estonia to housewives in Leningrad, for example, would be very beneficial to the Soviets. So, really, giving independence to the Baltic nations is how you boost perestroika, not jeopardize it. If I were somebody in the Kremlin, I would certainly analyze the situation very calmly and with a cool head. I would conclude that it would certainly be more useful for the Soviet Union as a whole to have three friendly neighbors than to have three hostile provinces. As independent neighbors, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania would be turned into a nice inlet of Western influence, know-how and technology; the Baltic States would be go-betweens for the West and the Soviet Union. We are much more able to communicate with the Western world because we are part of the Western tradition. History has certainly shown that having a free Finland has been much more favorable to the Soviet Union than an occupied Finland would have been. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania would be three more Finland's. The Soviets definitely need a renewal of their society. We, as independent nations, would be a key element in that. A question related to the issue of Baltic independence movements and the stability of the Soviet Union has to do with the Ukraine. What would the repercussions of Baltic independence be for the Ukraine and Soviet stability? Yes. This is a very important question. There certainly is a real psychological danger involved here. Gorbachev could perfectly well explain to Soviets that Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, from the point of view of international law, have an entirely different status than Ukraine. They are occupied countries. This can be fully explained to everybody who can think and reason. Gorbachev could simply say: ''This is a crime of Stalin. Stalin committed crimes against free nations who were our neighbors. Now the time has come that we have to make amends." He can explain it and everybody will understand it. There can be no complaint. But the real problem is this psychological one. Although the Georgians can understand logic and the Ukrainians can understand logic, nevertheless, they will be angry. They would certainly welcome Estonia's, Latvia's and Lithuania's independence, but then they will ask, "Why shouldn't we get independence also?" This is a real problem. www.singingrevolution.com 1

But clearly, if you start military action against the Baltics which is the only other option besides letting them achieve independence you jeopardize perestroika and you jeopardize the whole process of reform. And the Soviet Union can't afford to jeopardize perestroika. That would only bring the whole empire to the verge of abyss and there will be chaos. So, the only options the Kremlin has are either military intervention - which results in chaos - or some legitimate, peaceful transition of the situation, starting with freedom for the Baltics. Now, in the end, it may well happen that there will be an independent Ukraine. I don't exclude it. I even consider it fairly likely. It only takes a lot a bit more time. But why should we assume that there should remain an empire called the "Soviet Union?" I can't see any philosophical justification for that. Things will happen that are natural to happen because certain nations have perfectly natural needs for independence, for example. Although most people in the Western world, perhaps especially in the United States, are so used to two superpowers and a divided Europe, we should not make our way of thinking so mechanical. We should not think that the world is so simple. It is not. If you ask my intuition, my intuition tells me that the empire will sooner or later fall into pieces. It can't be helped, because [the Empire] simply doesn't work. What are the means by which you and your fellow independence leaders plan to achieve independence? Well, what we have tried to do is to find a legal mechanism of how the legal government of Estonia can be restored. We start from the fact that the Independent Republic of Estonia is still in existence from the point of view of international law and from the point of view of Estonian law. Naturally, then, there are legal citizens of Estonia against the background of illegal immigrants and illegal military troops. So, you will have to distinguish who is who. Who has legal authority in Estonia and who does not. Well, in February of this year what the Estonian Independence Party, the Estonian Heritage Society and the Estonian Christian Union decided to do was to set up Citizens' Committees throughout Estonia with the basic practical task of drawing up a registry of the legal citizens of the Independent Republic of Estonia. This would be in preparation for elections for a Congress of Estonia. This Congress would be a legal body making the decisions on behalf of Estonia's future. At the same time, we have the Soviet infrastructure in Estonia. We have local Soviets and we have the Supreme Soviet, which the Kremlin calls the Estonian Parliament. Of course, these Soviet bodies set up by the occupiers of Estonia can never be given any legal recognition by Estonians and fortunately, these Soviet bodies have never been given recognition by any of the major Western democracies, including the United States. So, our practical policy is to distinguish between two infrastructures: on the one hand, we have the legal citizens of Estonia and we have the old legal infrastructure of Independent Estonia; on the other hand, we have illegal immigrants and we have the illegal Soviet infrastructure set up by the Russians. Now, we don't give any formal recognition to the Soviet infrastructure, that is, de jure. But we might recognize these Soviet instruments of power de facto, that is, as home-rule bodies because we have to manage our everyday affairs, even under occupation. Somebody will have to do it. This, for example, was done in France when it was occupied by the Germans in World War ll. The basic problem is what should we do with the Estonian Supreme Soviet? And what should be the relationship of the Congress of Estonia to the Estonian Supreme Soviet? Are they entirely contradictory or can there be some work in parallel? At this moment most people in Estonia argue that it would be wise to participate in the elections to the Supreme Soviet which will probably be held in March. Once we have a good coalition of independence leaders, groups and movements, we would form an election block and would get at least a 2/3 majority. Some 30% of the Estonian www.singingrevolution.com 2

Supreme Soviet would be illegal immigrants, because according to Soviet law any Soviet can participate in any election. After we have the majority in the Supreme Soviet we can adopt any kind of decisions that we wish, even a declaration declaring the Supreme Soviet illegal. It will be up to us to decide. We can refer to its illegal foundation and we are entitled to declare it illegal and disband it. At some point, if perestroika succeeds, would you ever want to join the Soviet Union? No. Of course not. There is a lot of talk in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania about whether there should be some kind of union between these three nations. Perhaps in the interim period, we will create a kind of a Baltic Common Market and these nations will act together on many levels. Sure, we would be at liberty to join the Soviet Union if the Soviet Union were to become a marvelous country to join. But I don't think we would like to do that in the foreseeable future. How do independence leaders view the prospect of getting more autonomy, but not outright independence? We are absolutely clear on this point: talk of extensive autonomy, limited autonomy or any kind of autonomy within the framework of the Soviet Union is completely unacceptable. This is because Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are not a pan of the Soviet Union. They have never been and they don't intend to join the Soviet Union. How do the majority of Estonians feel about gaining independence? The vast majority of Estonians are in favor of full independence on the basis of the continuity of the Independent Republic of Estonia. But it is one thing to be in favor of it and another thing to think you will succeed. Many say that working toward independence is the right thing to do, but they say that we will probably lose, that probably we will have a crackdown. Elderly people, particularly, have these fears. Whenever there is a harsh statement from the Kremlin, some people are startled for a minute. Then they have second thoughts and think, well, perhaps it is not that bad. Do you have a timetable as far as achieving independence? Our timetable is very flexible indeed. It is entirely dependent on the actual development of political events. We have no fixed ideas. We are really very realistic. What do you think about Boris YeItsin? Do you trust him when he says that he favors selfdetermination for the Baltics? Boris Yeltsin is a very interesting figure. You see, many people in Estonia to a certain degree mistrust him. Some of us know his character. He is a hardliner, but in a quite different manner. He likes the strong hand and things like that. I am also not sure that he has the philosophy of economics that we have and I am not sure that he has a real understanding of how a Western economy should be run. I don't think that he has many practical solutions to offer. He is a clever man and knows what to say and where. Certainly I appreciate and welcome the fact that he has said that it is up to the Baltic nations to decide what their future should be. In this sense, I regard him as an ally and I don't think he would be the worst personality from the point of view of Tallinn, in comparison to Gorbachev. From the point of view of Russians, Yeltsin is right in saying that Gorbachev is moving too slowly with perestroika. This is a problem. Russians are getting fed-up. Yeltsin is correct-momentum will have to be added to perestroika. The only problem is exactly how to do this. Russia is so enormous and so many people in Russia do not understand what the talk is about. You have to have new and higher www.singingrevolution.com 3

standards of education. The general situation in Russia is so complicated that even if you get the most enlightened Czar in Russia the most educated academician, some man of genius I just don't see how he could quickly develop Russia into what we wish it to become. So many things are inherent in the cultural tradition, in the whole way of thinking, in the minute infrastructures down to the village level. Many people on the local level do not understand what is happening and what needs to be done. This is Yeltsin's main problem. He goes and makes nice speeches, but, practically, how does he plan to bring about change? This I don't know. Despite your optimism about eventually restoring Estonia's independence, many people believe Gorbachev will not last and that the person who replaces Gorbachev will not be someone who pushes reforms further, but someone who cracks down or someone like Brezhnev who lets things stagnate again. What do you expect to happen given this worst case scenario and what course of action would your movement take? This scenario is hard to imagine in concrete terms, because, as I've said before, for a Brezhnev or Ligachev the options would remain the same as for a Gorbachev. The problems, the logic and the political factors are the same. So, what would Ligachev do about the political situation and the economy? Eventually, he, or anybody else, MUST do what Gorbachev is doing. The main point is, people like Ligachev or some kind of Brezhnev are really absolutely incapable of controlling a country like the Soviet Union. So, they may resort to crackdowns. But in the current state of affairs if they don't ultimately resort to perestroika - such a crackdown would certainly bring chaos. I am not sure what would come after chaos, but at that point we wouldn't ask for our independence. In chaos, there would be nobody to ask for it. Like in 1918, we would just take it. Just supposing that a Brezhnev takes over in the Kremlin and it has military patrols walking through Tallinn streets and people are arrested, in that situation, a system of passive resistance will start in Estonia using the methods of Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King. What are the currents of opinion about independence within the Communist Party of Estonia? And what about Vaino Väljas [the head of the Estonian Communist Party], where does he stand? To begin with, the Communist Party of Estonia is a very interesting phenomenon. Fifty percent of its members are citizens of the Republic of Estonia. The other half are illegal immigrants and foreigners. So, you have a political party on your soil of which half consists of foreigners who have no legal status at all in your country. This is entirely absurd from the point of view of the Estonian political scenery. The Communists who are citizens of the Republic of Estonia are in a very tricky situation at the moment. They are having to decide which way to proceed. Will they continue to pursue the interests of the Soviet Union, or do they regard themselves as citizens of the independent Republic of Estonia and will they start pursuing the interests of Estonia? Many of them are very hesitant and very unhappy because, naturally, everybody thinks of one's future. Suppose Estonia were to become independent in two years time. What then? The Communists are asking themselves, "What should I do personally? Should I emigrate to the Soviet Union? What shall I eat there?" That's a problem for them. What to do now is certainly a problem for the Communist Party in general. As for Vaino Väljas, he himself is certainly doing a lot of maneuvering all the time. Of course, he is merely a representative of Mr. Gorbachev in Estonia. At the same time, he is wearing a blue, black and white tie these days. By such things he is probably trying to imply to Estonians that he is fighting for at least Estonia's autonomy, more independence or, as he calls it, "more sovereignty." www.singingrevolution.com 4

Incidentally, many of the agents of the KGB in Estonia are also in a kind of a predicament. The KGB has employed many Estonian citizens, because the Russians have a language problem. The KGB wants to know what is going on in Estonia. Some of these agents, as far as I can gather, are in a state of alarm. They ask, "What will we do in two or three years when the Estonian government will investigate into our activities?" They have served the occupying regime. I don't think that the Estonian government would punish anybody for just having been on the staff of the KGB, but the important thing is that one has not committed murders and things like that. What was the reaction in the Baltic to Bush's statement asking the Soviets to show restraint in the Baltics? It was very important that President Bush made this statement just after the Central Committee's denunciation of Balts at the end of August. It was very heartily welcomed in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Everybody said, "Okay, we have allies in the Free World. The Russians are not entirely free to do what they wish." So, we appreciate things like that very much. I think the U.S. administration takes a very correct course to say something when it is time to say it. Everybody in Estonia has regarded the United States as a stronghold of democracy, truth and justice, and we really appreciate it very much when the United States calls a spade a spade. Are there parallels to what happened in Czechoslovakia in 1968 and what is happening in Estonia now? As to any parallel with Czechoslovakia in 1968... really, there is a most important difference: that is that the Soviet Union is not the same as it was in 1968. Now, Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union have changed parts. Now it is the Czech tanks, perhaps, that will invade Russia to restore order. This is the crucial point. If the Soviet Union were the same, we would have no chance of doing what we are doing. How are the Russians in Estonia being dealt with as far as the Citizens' Committees? The Citizens' Committees that are drawing up the registry are asking immigrants who would like to apply for Estonian citizenship to be registered. So, we are actually drawing up two registries one for citizens and one for applicants. By this, we are showing our good will to the illegal immigrants and showing that we mean to respect their human rights. Many of the immigrants have been living for decades in Estonia and though they have come illegally, most of them have come in a manner organized by the Soviet government. Nevertheless, we do mean to honor their human rights. They can certainly express their will as to which they prefer: if they wish to become citizens of Estonia, they will have to apply and if they regard themselves as Soviet citizens and they say that they never mean to recognize Estonia or to be loyal to Estonia, of course, they have to leave. But it's up to them. Their applications can be dealt with as soon as there is a legal government in Estonia. Right now, no one can answer yes or no, they can just prepare immigrant applications. How do you see the economic situation developing in Estonia? Under Soviet perestroika it has been possible to start the scheme of so called economic self-rule which has seen the adoption of special decrees by parliament in Moscow and by the Supreme Soviet in Estonia. We are starting preparatory work to transform Estonia's present planned economy toward a normal market-oriented economy. This will have to be done step by step. www.singingrevolution.com 5

The first things we are doing now and things that will come into force on January 1, is that most of the factories will be subordinate to Tallinn rather than Moscow. Also, many firms will be sold out to people who will be shareholders and a kind of Estonian currency will be introduced. We won't be able to use the Estonian kroon that we had until 1940, but we will introduce a kind of coupon. Part of everybody's salary will be in these coupons. The amount of salary paid in coupons will depend on how many real goods are available on the market When there are few goods available that people want to buy, then the proportion of the pay in coupons will be less. When there are more goods available, me proportion of coupons will be increased and the proportion of rubles will be less. So, in other words the Estonian coupons are going to oust the ruble step by step. The introduction of coupons will address a major problem of people coming to Estonia from parts of the Soviet Empire where there is nothing to buy and they buy the goods that we have in Estonia. All the shops become empty. We have to protect our own tender markets. Our own currency is a very crucial start to doing this and to starting the economy functioning in a normal way. Later on, we hope to introduce our own convertible currency the Estonian kroon which we had when Estonia was independent. If Estonia becomes independent, what will be done with such pro-soviet groups such as InterFront? InterFront will be an object of negotiations between the governments of Estonia and the Soviet Union. You have to keep in mind that InterFront does not represent citizens of Estonia. InterFront is an organization of aliens in Estonia, of illegal persons on Estonian soil. Therefore, we regard InterFront as a foreign agency. Now, since my assumption is that the Soviet Union is interested in good neighborly relations with the Baltic countries, because it is very useful for the Soviets from an economic point of view, I therefore do not think that the Soviet Union would like to do anything to make the Baltic nations unstable. The Soviet Union as an ally, as I see it, should help Estonia get rid of such harmful elements who would undermine Estonia. Therefore, InterFront will be done away with as a result of negotiations with the Soviet government. Are you trying hard enough to convince ethnic Russians that they have an interest in independence for Estonia? We should try very hard indeed. I do admit that we have not been able to try as efficiently as we should. But this is not a matter of not wanting to do it, it is a practical problem because there is mistrust on the Russian side. They either do not listen to us or do not believe us. But yes, this is one of the most crucial issues. We have made some important steps recently. We have launched a newspaper to publish key independence documents in Russian. Up to now the Russian press is continually misinforming the Russian population. This causes a serious threat But we should find even more means to communicate with Russians. We should send our people to their organizations and meetings. This is terribly difficult to do for practical reasons, but it is very crucial that we do it. Aren't you really far too optimistic about Estonia's chances of achieving full independence? I have often been accused of being too optimistic and unrealistic. That is what people said when we took out the blue, black and white flags in April last year. Everybody said that this was absolutely unrealistic, that we were just rushing with our heads against the wall. But we went ahead and we knew that no one could stop us under the circumstances. We just did it. We just took the flags out and now they are flying everywhere in Estonia that was the first place such a thing happened in the Soviet Empire. I was accused of being a utopian. We also started restoring monuments to the War of Independence and we restored a monument to Konstantin Päts, the President of Estonia. When I declared last June that this monument would have to be re-erected because it is a matter of honor, www.singingrevolution.com 6

officials in Tallinn claimed that the impudence of the Estonia Heritage Society has no limits and that they have lost all sense of reality. Now the monument has been accomplished. All the things that, until recently, have been regarded as entirely unrealistic and unlikely to happen have happened in a very short course of time. This is not to say that everything I am saying about independence will happen, but we shall see. Personally, I think that in two years' time Estonia will have its independence. www.singingrevolution.com 7