As-salam alaykum. A very warm welcome to the first of a series of. Afghanistan-Pakistan debate hosted by Tolo News in Kabul and Express T.V.

Transcription

1 [START RECORDING [Afghanistan-Pakistan town hall 1.wma]] As-salam alaykum. A very warm welcome to the first of a series of Afghanistan-Pakistan debate hosted by Tolo News in Kabul and Express T.V. in Islamabad. This is the first of its kind T.V. show that will directly link Islamabad to Kabul. On this show tonight, we will discuss what role can Pakistan play in bringing peace to a war-ravaged Afghanistan ahead of the U.S. pullout of troops in 0? We will also talk about the misperceptions that both countries have of each other and whether we are moving towards a reconciliation or a confrontation at a time when desperate efforts are being made to have peace talks with the Taliban. In just a short while, I will be connecting live to Kabul where my colleague, Mujahid Kakar, is meeting with very special guests. But first, let me introduce you to our panel right here. First and foremost, we have Retired General Asad Durrani, who was the Director General of Pakistan s ISI Inter Services Intelligence Agency from 10 to ; he was also Pakistan s ambassador to Germany and to Saudi Arabia. Joining him is Senator Haji Muhammed Adeel, a senior leader of the Awami National Party, which is in government in the province of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, neighboring Afghanistan. He is also the Chairman of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. Last, but not least, Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, the Chief of the Awami Muslim League, who was the Federal Minister for information in broadcasting under the Musharraf regime, which has been repeatedly accused by the Karzai administration of aiding the Afghan Taliban. And, we have with us a handpicked audience; amongst them, some panelists, stakeholders who not only keep a check on Afghanistan, keep a keen look at Afghanistan, 1

2 but have also written extensively on Afghanistan. Mujiahid Kakar, it is over to you now in Kabul. Thank you. Here in Kabul, I have a guest with me, Mr. Hanif Atmar, a former intelligence minister, and also Mr. Amrullah Saleh, a former head of the National Directorate of Security, and a bunch of youth Afghans. My first question is that the blame game between Afghanistan and Pakistan what s happening in Afghanistan- Pakistan always have been blamed for that. And also, in the meantime when something happening in Pakistan, so the Pakistani politicians, they always blame Afghans for what s going on in Pakistan. So my question is from General Asad Durrani, and after that, Mr. Amrullah Saleh will also respond. So back to you General Asad Durrani. You have heard the question, the misperceptions between the two countries that we were talking about and the blame game. General Asad Durrani: Well, there are plenty of misperceptions as one could expect in a situation like that. I think more of them exist on the Pakistan side than the Afghan because the Afghans have been here. They know the situation here. But sometimes we think I m talking about the misperceptions we think that well, Afghanistan will one day become, perhaps because of the new development, some sort of a stronghold of the Indian presence, which the history shows it has not been. The second misperception that I find is, we think that the Durand Line is a big issue and it has to be settled. And, of course, the third one is, perhaps existing from the on the Afghan side that we are looking for some sort of proxy. We are looking for people who would be, you know, providing us that sort of support that the others cannot. Again, my take on this is, once the Afghans are masters of their own destiny, then they decide on their own. They will act as an independent state, as a sovereign state, looking after their interest, and one of

3 their prime interest is that, look, we can play hardball with Pakistan, but Pakistan is just too precious and an asset for us in the difficulties that I talked about. You know how the Afghans have helped us. Pakistan has always been whenever they have been invaded by foreign parts, Pakistan is the one that has provided them a place for their refugees. Yes, and we have approximately two million refugees here. General Asad Durrani: outlet that And, of course, the business, etc. is done here. There was the Alright. Allow me to go back to Kabul. Mujahid you have heard what Mr. Asad Durrani had to say over here. He s talked about the misperceptions here. But by and large, it seems that we have a democratic government here and our foreign minister has said that we want an Afghan led peace process. So, don t you think that in the last five years, Pakistan may have actually drastically changed the way it looks at Afghanistan? Amrullah Saleh: First of all, I want to convey my Salaam in regards to the panelists in Islamabad. The reality is that despite the fact that General Asad Durrani said Afghan s considers Pakistan a very precious asset, but that asset has inflicted so much pain on the Afghans, especially after the withdrawal of the Soviet Union as they have tried to dominate Afghanistan through their proxy groups. There is no doubt that Pakistan has provided refuge for millions of Afghans and that has indeed created goodwill amongst the Afghan people, but that goodwill has been shattered over the years with Pakistan supporting first, Hekmatyar, to take power by force; then creating the Taliban; then after, still providing sanctuary for the Taliban leadership. Now, this said, the other question you asked was the Afghan-led peace process. Of course, we are seeing a change in Pakistan s attitude. Let me be very clear and specific how we interpret that change. In the past, Pakistan establishment was reaching out to Pashtuns of Afghanistan saying this

4 is a northern dominant government and you have to rebel against it. Now, they are reaching out to so-called non-pashtuns and they said this is a Pashtun government. We want to facilitate talks between you and the Taliban. Let us bypass the Afghan government. This brings us to a simple conclusion. Pakistan doesn t want a functioning state in Afghanistan, so whenever they have the chance, they want to bypass it and factionalize the Afghan society and dominate our county. Mujiahid, can I actually throw back to Haji Adeel Sab, who is the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Would you like to respond to what Mr. Saleh has said there in Kabul? Thank you very much. A-salaam alaykum, friends in Kabul. Pakistan really made many mistakes and there was a non-elected government, they thought in the past Afghanistan is over-promised and they did over-promise. I think that our in the last five years, the elected governments tried to make better relations with Afghanistan and with the efforts of President Zardari and President Karzai. I think the relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan comparative better. Even in the common intelligence here in Pakistan, they don t think like in the past. But I think the solution to solve the Afghanistan problem is only let the Afghan people to decide their own fate what they want, how they want. It s not Pakistan s responsibility whether they want friendship with India. They want more relations from India. Why should we object? I think Afghanistan is independent and that the Afghan people can solve their own problems if the neighbors not interfere in their affairs. But they accuse us of still interfering in their affairs, in fact they say that we are trying to sabotage the talks of the Taliban, the peace talks of the Taliban. I don t think that they re still you see, there are safe havens of the Taliban and al-qaeda in Pakistan, and even some safe havens are Pakistani Taliban in Afghanistan.

5 You re referring to Mullah Fazlullah Of course. So I think we ll ask our un-wanted guests to please leave our country. All right. So the message from Pakistan, at least, is very clear. They do not want safe havens, either in Pakistan or in Afghanistan, and they re very clear that it is this political government wants an Afghan-led peace process, and they do not want to meddle in Afghanistan s affairs. At least, the civilian side seems to be very clear, Mujiahid. For most of the Afghans, the message sometimes we got from the Pakistani politicians and it s very confusing. In Pakistan, sometimes they call it good Taliban and bad Taliban. And even when they on the issue of the peace process between the Afghan government and the Taliban, when Pakistan committed that they will facilitate that talks, and then when the Afghan side tried to organize a type of peace jirga, and then the Pakistani ulema failed to show up at the jirga and after that we had like a of from the ulema consult of Pakistan, the jihad against the infidels or the foreign troops. It s like every Muslim has the right to take to open and start jihad against the infidel troops. I want to ask Mr. Hanif Atmar to respond to that. And after that, I want Mr. Sheikh Rashid Ahmed because on one hand, Pakistan is the ally in the war against terror with the US. On the other hand, we have some Pakistani politicians where they ask the Muslims that they should start jihad against the foreign troops in Afghanistan. Hanif Atmar: Salaam to all. Let me actually point out to a couple of issues that came up. Issue #1 is to correct the misperception about the misperception. It s not a war of misperceptions; it s a war of facts, a sad reality. Every day, there are to Afghans who lose their lives in Afghanistan and unfortunately, a more or less similar number of civilians lose their lives in Pakistan. This is not about perception; it s about terrorism and the fact that the two nations have not been able to suppress the terrorism and save the

6 lives of their innocent people. We will never be able to overcome that perception unless we address terrorism, the sanctuaries, and the enabling infrastructure that the terrorists have been enjoying. Number #, it is said that Afghans need to be on their own to make their decisions. We have been on our own. We are making our own decisions. And if we turn back to Durrani saab to say that it is our decision that we would like to pursue good relations with our brother country, Pakistan. But it is also our decision that that relationship will not come at the expense of anybody else. We would like to have a partnership, a good relationship with every neighboring or near neighboring country in this region, so Afghanistan does not need to be seen as a win or lose situation for somebody. We can be a win-win situation for every one of you, but that requires honest and effective cooperation from both sides. Now, back to the issue of a blame game and accusations on both sides in terms of tolerance for sanctuaries. Well, my dear colleagues and friends, the time has come that we take honest and effective measures to address the terrorist sanctuaries wherever they are. Now, for that, Afghanistan has presented a road map to you. We are expecting now, similarly, effective actions from our brothers and sisters in Pakistan. Let me acknowledge the fact that we have seen signs of maybe early signs of change and quite constructive change. I would like to welcome that, and I would like to see that that change is translated into the implementation of mutual agreements, particularly the ones made last month. So perhaps the time has come for all sides to say now, enough is enough of the blame game. The time has come for effective and accountable action. Right. Sheikh Rashid saab, this is a question that I d like to put to you because you have been seen as being sympathetic, at least to the Afghan Jihad, but what we are seeing here, what our friends in Afghanistan are saying that it s unacceptable that

7 there are sanctuaries here in Pakistan, and they say that that really is the crux of the problem. Sheikh Rashid: Thank you very much, Munizae. When I was in favor of Afghan Jihad, the whole world was supporting of Afghan Jihad. We want peace in Afghanistan. Afghanistan peace is very important for Pakistan also. Nobody in Pakistan, civilian or army, government, ever supported terrorism in this country. Unfortunately, these people are so strong, but if you start blame games, that s not good enough. We, the Pakistanis we have 0 maybe 00 posts on the border to stop this terrorism, to stop this invasion. But what to do when there is no serious when they also give these Taliban leaders and others we have given to them. But then we demand the terrorists, the people who are involved, and especially the Indian influence, they mostly understand it because Afghanistan is geo-politically such an important country, such an important country, and a super power interest. And unfortunately, both these countries, Pakistan and Afghanistan, are under the influence of American policies. You made a very, very important point, and I d like to bring in Amrullah Saleh, and then we can open the debate to our stakeholders here. Quick word and then we ll go across to Kabul. Asad Durrani: Very quickly but since our Afghan friends are so keen to talk about facts the fact is that Afghanistan is right now under foreign occupation. So if it is under foreign occupation, if there is militancy there, the debris will fall in Pakistan and Pakistan will really get involved, like it or not. But Pakistan s involvement has always been, we may or may have not succeeded. It has always been, and that is why one was reaching out to everyone all the important factions in Afghanistan so that one can create that consensus. Without that grand consensus, Afghanistan will not be safe. All right, very quickly, and then we have to go to Kabul.

8 Afghanistan is not under foreign occupation. Under the UN resolution, Pakistani is part of the Male Speaker: What is the UN resolution? It is there; it is there. It s not foreign occupation. These forces came to help Afghanistan, to fight the Taliban and terrorists. Alright. So there is a divided opinion here on our panel, but is seems that Pakistan has extended an olive branch, Mujahid. They have released Taliban prisoners in the last many months. Does Afghanistan not see that as a way for Pakistan to helping out the peace process, the peace talks? Or, is it still a question mark? Because the statements that we see coming out of Kabul, especially with the Deputy National Security Advisor, saying the Pakistan is not feared. They re still harboring terrorists. They are very disconcerting here. Thank you very much. Durrani mentioned that Afghanistan is still under the foreign occupation. So I want to put that question forward to Amrullah Saleh. Amrullah Saleh: What they deny Pakistan has not harboured terrorists, let me bring to their attention a very bold fact. The leader of the world terrorist organization, al-qaeda, Osama bin Laden was found with the largest military academy near Calcul, and he was not found in the outer skirts of Kabul. Plus, Pakistan is no longer denying to have harbored the Taliban leadership. The Pakistan government is now putting a high price tag on the Taliban and saying if you pay this price tag, we are going to push these guys for reconciliation. And we know what the price tag is. The other thing is, Pakistan has monopolized the right to have all sorts of foreign relations itself, but when it comes to Afghanistan, they want to create limitations for us, treating us not a nation but a subnation as to who we should talk to and who should be our allies. So if the presence of the United States troops in Afghanistan gives the notion of invasion and occupation of our

9 country, let me remind General Asad Durrani that according to so much material that has now surfaced, Americans, post -/, asked Pakistan for cooperation. And the response from your establishment was our air, soil, and sea is all at your disposal. If we are occupied, we are equally occupied. You are also an occupied country (applause) so therefore I think the Afghan people are far more smarter than they were in the 0s and 0s. The best way for us to make progress is you have to respect Afghanistan as a dignified nation, not as your backyard. For as long as you are trying to continue to dominate us through proxy, it will backfire because we have gained massive soft power and the Afghans are ready to stand up and rise as a nation. Sheikh Rashid: Yes We don t want to dominate Afghanistan. We have paid the price what we have sacrificed to get better freedom from the occupation. These all mujahadeens come at a bad time. They have been trained by all this super power who are now fighting against these terrorists. Unfortunately, our good gesture has been given a bad name. We are in the favor of Afghanistan but don t blame us. And we know what you were doing with the Indians when you were going to did something, which I don t want to discuss it here it here, in Baluchistan. We want to support Afghanistan, our brothers. We love Afghanistan. We don t want to dominate Afghanistan. Afghanistan peace is our desire and demand and this is interlinked with Pakistan. 0 That s very well, but the acquisition coming from that side, and I heard 1 applause, that it has changed Afghanistan; that we are limiting the role of their foreign policy; that we are trying to, you know, influence them. Asad Durrani, what would you say? General Asad Durrani: Yeah, so that is the perception that they have, and sometimes the statements here can reinforce those perceptions. The problem in a discussion like that

10 would be that we will get involved with technical matters. We just forget the big picture. We forget the orders for the peace. I think I would agree with Sheikh Rashid Ahmed. Our core interest has always been some or another, and this is a complex game; that Afghans can be brought and in my time, it used to be called you brought this comment, and nowadays we re calling about the broad consensus. You decide. But the fact is that where Afghanistan is located, it is inevitable that some other neighbors would be interested would get involved. Ultimately, if you re looking at the big picture, that big picture is that the neighbors decide not to interfere; only encourage the Afghan faction under their influence to go and sit at the table and then get out of the room and then let them do it. Now they said that s theoretically the best one. But the problem right now is they may or may not agree Haji saab can talk about UN resolutions, but the fact is, they re not foreign troops, and we re talking about how to get rid of them. So this is a complex game in which it s not about a blame game, but ultimately ends up by giving the blame the way that you look at it. 1 1 Hanif Atmar: All right, Mujahid, over to you. I m sorry. I want Mr. Atmar to respond to that. I would like to go back to this issue of occupation. Number #1, it is our expectations that our friends in Pakistan avoid that rhetorical statement. Afghanistan does not share that opinion that we are occupied. We have never been occupied. As [the senator, the respected senator said, number #1, we have a UN resolution authorizing ISAF operation in Afghanistan. Number #, we have signed strategic partnership agreements and security agreements with the nations, and our legally competent institutions have actually ratified so it s on the basis of two sovereign nations working with each other for both security and development. That is the way we hold it here in Afghanistan. But let me reiterate that if this is said in order to justify continuation of

11 1 1 1 terrorism against either Afghanistan or Pakistan, this is certainly unhelpful, and it will have to be removed from our lexicon at this point. The second point: we very much appreciate the recent constructive steps taken by our Pakistani friends and colleagues, particularly the release of the Taliban detainees. But, of course, we do have a proposal that these are Afghan nationals and they will have to be handed over to Afghanistan. They should not be released to unknown addresses. That is not going to promote a peace effort. The third point, which is what Shiekh Rashid said actually referred to the future. We would very much like to welcome our Pakistani brothers and sisters; that we talk about the future. It s not about blaming you or blaming Afghanistan for what is going on. It is our shared responsibility to save our people from the terrorism. Now, how do we look at the future together? There is absolutely no substitute to an honest, verifiable, and effective cooperation between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Are we ready to do that? I can assure you that from the Afghan side, we are ready to get into that relationship with you. It is definitely our opinion, it is our belief that having that brotherhood and sisterhood with Pakistan is in the best interest of Afghanistan and the region, but that should not come at the expense of our relationship sovereign relationship with others. So, let s talk about the future. Let s talk about the steps we need to take, both but at the same time hold each other accountable. 1 Sheikh Rashid: One-line statement. One of my brothers said that about ulema 0 1 councils, our foreign office rejected that statement. We our government official stand is that one man s statement has no value. Our government policy, our national policy is, we all have the respect and rules for the betterment of the people of Afghanistan. Sheikh Rashid: And you re speaking about Tahir Ashrafi s statement? I don t want to mention anybody s name.

12 You re speaking about Tahir Ashrafi s statement, for the purpose of our viewers, his statement saying that Sheikh Rashid: of view. The way he has mentioned the name so I m using the same point Alright. But for the purpose of our viewers, he s speaking about Tahir Ashrafi s statement, that he gave as a head cleric saying that validating the suicide attacks in Afghanistan against native forces. You had a question? Audience Guest: Thank you very much. My question is to all the parties, the panelists sitting there in Kabul and in Pakistan. First, a brief comment about the statement made by Mr. Amrullah Saleh at the very beginning of the program, and it sounded that Amrullah Saleh still feels that he s holding the portfolio that was assigned by President Karzai. Please know you re talking not in that capacity, and the pointing out the same thing against Pakistan. Look at Haji Adeel, his party has lost how many parliamentarians? Look at the PPP in Pakistan. PPP lost its own chair person who was martyred by the terrorists in this country. But my question is about the future, not about the blame game. Do all the panellists here in Pakistan or in Kabul think... what s the threat to peace in Pakistan and Afghanistan, whether it emanates from inside Pakistan or it emanates from Afghanistan, or there is some outside force which is threatening peace in the future after the withdrawal. Thank you. 0 Alright; a very, very good question. I ll throw it back again to Mujahid 1 to you. You ve heard the question. What is the response of your panelists, especially of Mr. Amrullah Saleh? Thank you. About the head of the Pakistani where I m concerned in Afghanistan, most people think that when they try to convey the message that the suicide attacks or like according to Islam, they can carry out these attacks. People think that

13 message was conveyed to the type of support for the Taliban. So now I want to put forward that question to Mr. Amrullah Saleh. Amrullah Saleh: In response to the question of my brother, Mr. Paraja, my sense of nationalism and patriotism is not linked to the position that I hold in the government. I still remain a nationalist and I still remain a patriot. Whether I have power in the government or not, the basics of our sentiments is not linked to how much government power we have. We are a nation. So, still living in Afghanistan... and I still see what Pakistani-based groups are doing in my country. It s not a blame game. When we meet... when we used to meet Pakistani officials from the army and the establishment... still, we are meeting them not me my other colleagues from the government. They no longer deny that they are with the Taliban. As I said, they have put a price tag. Look at the structure of the Taliban. It is called Quetta Shura. Quetta is your city. It is the capital city of Baluchistan. The headquarters of the Taliban is sitting there. For dismantling that headquarters, you do not need army intervention. You need police action, which you are not taking. Then Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said we are aligning ourselves with regional powers, and he has evidence or facts. Let me be very clear on that. When Pakistan gives itself the right to fragment my nation along ethnic lines and harbour anti-estate elements in the soil of Pakistan to hurt us as a nation, as a state, there may come a time that we will not be still possessing the policy of coming to you softly and begging to you to have mercy on us. So as a sovereign country, Afghanistan also has its right to reciprocate. Afghan audience question: We took a question from our audience. Please, Mr. Zafar I would like to ask from the respected panellists of Pakistan... that I believe as an Afghan nation, we have to be honest with the people. Now, the question comes as politics views of Pakistanis. I do believe that there are differences between the

14 people of Pakistan and the politicians. Now, this is a blame game; this is a blame game. If we talk... if we talk, we can t solve anything unless we take very serious action. We have to come together and talk honestly and see, what are the solutions? I have participated in some of the debates between Afghanistan-Pakistan borders. This has been continuously happening for five years, but we haven t had a fruitful outcome from these talks. Now, I would like to say, what are your solution or your response to the Taliban or to the people... that live in Pakistan and they come here? Thank you, Mr. Sahib. So, here s a question. How can we involve in a constructive dialogue to solve the issues between Afghanistan and Pakistan? And also, my other friend has a question, so please. What is your name? Please, just give him the mike. Habib Zahori : Thank you. My name is Habib Zahori and I m a journalist. I think, first of all, there has to be a distinct line between the military establishment of Pakistan and the civilian government of Pakistan. No matter how many times Pakistanis tell us that they are... they have a democratic government and they are the ones who are making all the decisions. But at the end of the day, it s the military establishments and the intelligence establishment of Pakistan who are taking all the decisions, especially regarding Afghanistan. Also, I would like to make a point about the comments of one of the panellists who said that Pakistan has never tried to dominate Afghanistan. I wonder if the gentleman is distorting history and distorting facts. My question to the Afghan panel is that... Pakistan has legitimate concerns about Afghanistan, namely the influence of India. How can Afghanistan... can address those concerns? My question to the Pakistani panel is that... what takes Afghanistan to [break in audio]... that we want peace and we don t want to pose any threat to the Pakistanis. Of course, it is understandable that the

15 Pakistanis do not want to be sandwiched between Afghanistan... a hostile government in Afghanistan and a hostile government in India. Thank you. Munizae, now back to you. Alright. So there are a number of questions, but first Haji Adeel, over to you because you re the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. And that s an accusation that comes from India also, that we are not really in control of our foreign relations, but it is actually the military that calls the shots; true or not? Pakistan is a democratic country. My friend there mentioned about 1 Mullah Ashrafi s statement, but he s not a spokesman of the Pakistan government, and the Pakistani government and some of us contradict. So, actually, we made mistakes in the past when there was undemocratic people rule this country many, many years. We treat Afghanistan like... not as an equal country, but we ve seen the time of a semipolitical government. We are tied to Jalalabad. And even the foreign interior minister of Pakistan claim, I m the creator of Taliban. So we treat Afghanistan like our other problems. I think now the policy is changed. Even with an establishment, with our agencies and elected government, they are not following the old traditions You are all on the same page regarding Afghanistan? Yes, of course. The ISA; the MI? Yes, yes, of course. Maybe some people inside the agencies may not 1 agree with the foreign policy, but with all, we all in the same line. Even the joint session of the parliament, they said that all foreigners...terrorists... they should leave our country... so we are fighting against them. And there s a parliamentary resolution on that? There s a parliamentary resolution.

16 Sheikh Rashid: Let me say, you know, I ve been also five times foreign office committee chairman. Unfortunately, what Mr. Adeel saab is saying, I don t endorse this. Nobody wants this war should continue and nobody supports this terrorism. Unfortunately, there are many occasions when people can see from high, from middle, or from the ground. The grand reality is that Taliban guard this all force from Afghanistan. And whatever my friend said... we have given them space, water, air... unfortunately, when this accident happened, we have no opportunity. And if the US says, okay, we are going to cross you; the best way is we sanction them, okay? You can cross this air space. You can come for this water, and you can have this jet at some base. What else we can do? Is there any solution? Let me know. Think about the future of Afghanistan. Unfortunately, we always see behind. Let s see on the front. 1 land. Sheikh Rashid: Okay, we will move forward in the next segment but He agrees with me, that all foreign... they should leave our country; our Do you agree? Oh, yeah. I must say, even if we would lose Afghanis also, I don t mind it. Like you said, yeah, you must. Nobody says... listen, give me... this is a very serious question asked by Mr. Adeel. We have given them even opportunity that you can register yourself, but even they, that foreigners don t register. 0 1 refugees. Sheikh Rashid: We are not talking about the refugees. We are not talking about the Who called in all these foreigners? Unfortunately, all the world... all the world invited them... all the people to come and join the jihad. 1

17 When the Russians were there and all the western countries and other countries invited them, it was Jihad. Now, if in Kabul, forces is fighting against the Taliba, it is not Jihad. Asad Durrani: No, it is not a Jihad. It is not a Jihad. Okay, okay, we don t want to go too much into the history. We don t want to go too much into the history. There is an important question from the other side. They say that there is a Quetta, they accuse of us having the Quetta Shura here. And they say, you do not need military to take action against them, but you need the police to take action. Why have you, as a civilian government, not taken action against them? Sheikh Rashid: They are sitting in Afghanistan and our government... our government is asking them to give us back. There must be some... Sheikh Rashid: Alright. I ll get to that question; I ll get to that question. No, no, no, I m not... first, there must be a decision. All the people who 1 are launching terrorism, any side, they should be sent to their places... to their governments Shura and Asad Durrani: Alright. I ll put that question to the Afghan panel, first about the Quetta We are asking for trouble Munizae. The question is about the future, and 0 1 we are talking about history. We are talking about blames. If you want to address the question about the future, then let s get down to that. Munizae Jahangir Munizae Jahangir : Quickly finish your point and then I have to toss across. People are fighting to make an impression against the Taliban. Let me conduct the program. 1

18 Male Speaker: Even in Karachi they failed. You can see the condition that people are demanding the army should come. And even the largest party claim that... they demand army should come. Sure, it s very difficult and it s complicated. Alright. So, Haji Adeel is making the point that there are non-state actors here; that the police is absolutely... in your position or does not have the capacity to deal with this kind of terrorism. Pakistan is facing its own battle with terrorism. Over to you, Mujahid. Thank you. I have two things. Most of Afghans think that the Pakistan foreign policy is dictated by the military establishment. So now I want to also Mr. Atmar to respond to that. Hanif Atmar: There are so many issues that have come up. Let me take as many as I can in the little time I have. Number #1, let me again pay my respect to all those who have fallen victim to terrorism, whether in Afghanistan or in Pakistan. So the Afghan people care as much about the civilian lives and people of Pakistan as they care about themselves. Let us be clear about this fact, that Afghans would never want something for Pakistan that they don t want for themselves. Number #, the influence of India and our relationship with India often comes up in our discussion. Our policy is absolutely clear. It is our most strategic national interest to have a friendly and reliable relationship with Pakistan. Second, it is equally important for us to have a relationship with all other neighbors and regional neighbors of Afghanistan. Third, it is our national interest not to allow any real or perceived threat from our territories against Pakistan, but we have a similar expectation from our Pakistani brothers and sisters. The question for the future is how are we going to go about the dismantling of the enabling infrastructure of terrorism in this region? The step #1 that needs to be taken between the leaders of the two nations and all the concerned institutions... that they must come together to discuss what the legitimate 1

19 1 expectations... mutual legitimate expectations are. The Pakistani friends are invited to tell us what they expect from us. I can assure you that there is a greater level of political support for addressing any concerns that our Pakistani friends and brothers and sisters have. But at the same time, we would like to be assured, ourselves, that our concerns and legitimate issues are paid attention to. A key legitimate issue is that the terrorist infrastructure in Waziristan is killing your people and our people. Let s take joint action against them. It s not just about Quetta; it s not just about Karachi; it is also about North Waziristan. Are we ready to take such action? But at the same time, I must reiterate, the Afghan people have extended a hand for peace and reconciliation. Those Afghan insurgents who would like to take that opportunity and come and join the peace process are welcome. Our solution is first and foremost a political resolution to this problem. But if we have to defend our people, then we have no choice. We will go after the terrorists who continue to kill our people or yours. So at this point, I would whole heartedly suggest to my Pakistani friends and panelists, let s begin a new discussion, a new debate, as to how Pakistan and Afghanistan can best understand each other and each other s concerns and security interests, and take it from there. 1 1 Amrullah Saleh: I want Mr. Saleh to just address the issue of the Pakistan Taliban. Let s be futuristic as the panelists in Islamabad say we should not stick with the past. If we want to engender our vision where harmony prevails economic cooperation and good neighborly relationships between the two countries we need to do a set of things which will create that environment. Number #1, Pakistan should work with Afghanistan s government. Pakistan does recognize Afghan territorial integrity, but Pakistan has never respected Afghan state s sovereignty. Your dealings and your interaction with non-estate factors in Afghanistan is far more than your formal relationship with Afghan government. You are dealing still with Mohammed Omar s 1

20 1 defunct Emirate of Afghanistan, and you have created a capital for him in your country. Dismantle it and respect Kabul as the capital of Afghanistan. Respect our institutions as we respect your institutions. That is the solution. Why are you reaching out to ethnic groups in Afghanistan? Reach out to the president of Afghanistan. Assure our government that you are for peace. Then, we will see change in Pakistan s policy. But as long as your policy remains, divide and rule, dominate Afghanistan, create a proxy; enable that proxy to control certain parts of the border area; affect the influence of the the perceived influence of that country or this country. That will not be beneficial to you and it will not be beneficial to us. Let me also come to the issue of the TTPS as Mr. Kakar said. You have made the border so porous, in some areas so irrelevant, that a number of actors have emerged. God knows who they are. This is not our fault. We were telling you in 00; we were telling you in 00, please respect Afghanistan s government. Or else this game will come to a stage where you will not be in control and perhaps we will not be in control, and we are seeing signs of that situation. If you want to if you want the two countries to live in peace, solution #1 is stop working with nonstate actors; work with Kabul and respect it as the capital of Afghanistan. 1 I need to come to the panel here, it s very important that I do because we 1 have somebody who is in government here. We have two very important members. 1 Sheikh Rashid: I think if you give the time to Hadi Adeel it s just to give the time 0 for that panel, you know, an opportunity. 1 No You are not representing Pakistan. You are the agent of the generals, and you work for the generals. Alright. We cannot get personal here. We cannot because we are talking about foreign relations. 0

21 I am representative of all the people of Pakistan. I am the representative of the people of Pakistan and I think Pakistan Present government is not having any link with any non-estate factor of Afghanistan. Sheikh Rashid: Okay, that s our official point of view. We have supported Karzai and let s see what s going on the new year when there s a new election and what will be the political position of Karzai. They should look after whatever they train by so many brigades by the Americans, 0 and 0 or 0. How many people are running and joining the Taliban? I don t want to discuss this. The only thing which we want to discuss is that whatever my friend says, we are not anymore we are paying the price to stop this mujahedeen. We have paid much price to stop this mujahedeen. We are not blaming anybody but unfortunately they have a brother there; they have a sister there. I wish they realized what different and a difficult job for Pakistan is. It s very easy to talk, but if you want to deliver, deliver with the Pashtun and maybe this is our part politically. They have to discuss it... foreign office. We would have to be the same relations with Northern Lights or not? But when the people say go to the Shamali with this... this is not their baby. We want... this terrorism should be stopped with both countries cooperation. None of this country politician... although maybe there are some people who their line is not the same, including Karzai. 0 Alright. So a weak Karzai government on that side, says Sheikh Rashid, 1 and they both want a solution to terrorism. Bal Katisad is a very senior journalist here in Pakistan and writes on Pak-Afghan issues and also based in Peshawar. Male Speaker: Well, Munizae, thank you very much. When I m extended the invitation to be among the audience of this program, I was really happy because I believe that both countries need to be linked up politically through media, through youth, through other 1

22 means. But unfortunately, the way the discussion was led is extremely unfortunate. We would not move anywhere if we keep talking like this on both sides. I am not blaming the guests in Kabul but I m also blaming the guests in Islamabad. And I think politicians on both sides need to take things into their hands. Yes, I understand the military or the security establishment is a key component of this political process. But I think the way on both sides the security establishments and the military are trying to influence the politicians. I think it will lead to nowhere. The media and the youth, I think we need to let the youth discuss more. I think there were very good questions from the youth among the audience in Kabul. I think we need to let this youth they are the future. These politicians, they have fought they did not deliver on both sides, unfortunately. I don t think that there is an issue only with Islamabad. There are issues with Islamabad and Kabul. Both countries and both capitals have to admit and have to recognize that. Unless we keep denying this, we will stay with the past. Alright. So we don t want to be the captives of the past, and so I ll hand over the mike to a young man. 1 Male Speaker: My question from the respected panel that please, if you can, a review on your foreign policy and internal policy. You must take action on US troops. My suggestion for you, if you cannot handle your country, then please leave for Afghan Taliban. I think they will handle very carefully and we want to empower Pak-Afghan peace and a good lesson. Thanks. 1 Munizae Jahangir Can you repeat your question again? What s your question exactly? Keep the mike a little away from your mouth. Male Speaker: My question is your foreign policy and your internal policy from your own Afghanistan. And please, you must sanction on US troops if you can. If you

23 cannot handle under your country rule and if you cannot handle your country carefully, then please leave for Afghan Taliban. I think they will handle carefully. Alright. So hand over the country to the Afghan Taliban. Maybe they will handle it better is what this young man seems to be saying here. General Durrani, quickly to you, and then we will go over to Afghanistan and we ll take more questions from there. General Durrani. General Asad Durrani: I thought the time has come to talk about the shape of things to come. Instead of that, we seem to be involved with whatever was talked about as a blame game or the history and so forth. And if you want to talk about the future, let s take the present realistically. I think one of the Afghan panelists or a question they did ask let s get honest. If we want to get honest, move beyond rhetoric. We sympathize with the victims of terrorism. We want good relations. The fact on the ground is 00 when the Taliban said we want to be incorporated, they were rejected. Today, years later, years later, it s the most powerful faction in Afghanistan. They even provide security to the NATO convoys. $0 million dollars every year is paid by the NATO for security so that they can move up to $0 million dollars for the drug trade. $00 million dollars flows into the Taliban kitty from the west because no contract can move. If that be so, it s no surprise that nowadays the most sought after dialogue partner is the Taliban. So that s the strength that they have. The two scenarios quickly, so that everybody knows which way we are heading for. One is the best-case scenario to have someplace the Americans and the Taliban come to an umbrella agreement, and after that starts the so-called end game in which the Afghans decide. The worst case is no, that umbrella does not take place. The fighting continues and the foreign troops continue to stay with or without Kabul s position. Alright.

24 General Asad Durrani: Just a minute. Kabul has not given permission because they know the implication of foreigners staying is if they do not get Kabul s green light that the turmoil will continue. That s in the nature of... Alright. So General Durrani talking about the complexities there in Kabul, saying that the Taliban has emerged as a powerful faction; that they are being wooed by everybody and people want them. In fact, Kabul wants Pakistan to bring them to the negotiating table. That s just a fact. So we both have to look at the hard realities on either side and perhaps if we want to move forward, we will have to acknowledge a force here; maybe our civilian government here is not that strong. Maybe Karzai is not that weak. But over to you, Mujahid. Thank you. I put forward that question to Amrullah Saleh and I want him to respond to that. Amrullah Saleh: I m very glad that at the end of... almost at the end of this panel, we are seeing Pakistani panelists... respectful Pakistani panelists making some admission and confession that Kabul has asked Islamabad to push the Taliban for talks. You are clearly confessing that the Taliban is your proxy. You are saying that they have become a formidable military force. A formidable military force... General Durrani, a military general, knows he has to have strategic backing. They have to have access to infrastructure. And we think we have information, Pakistan has served as that strategic backup for the Taliban. Now, what should be the end game? Here is the scenario I paint. If Pakistan unfortunately sees the end game through the prism of Taliban, through empowerment of Taliban, or creating a space for them in Afghanistan, it will be a messy, and it will be a chaotic end game not only for us as I said, we have gained enormous soft power, and Afghanistan has an army which is capable of fighting. It will also be a bad scenario for you. But if there s another scenario where for one time in your

25 history, you do not trust a proxy, you do not trust a militant group; you trust the Afghan nation and you trust our political [break in audio] we ll get an idea of dominating Afghanistan and work with us as a country. In that scenario, Pakistan will also emerge has a hub for energy, as an integrator of regional cooperation, Afghanistan will be very happy and we will also prosper. So when you throw the ball in our court and say Kabul is key to determining the future of the country, you are right to some extent. But the other part of that scenario is completely depending on you, whether Pakistan gives up its militaristic strategy in the region and adopts a new strategy which is based on economic cooperation, energy corridors, etc. etc. We are not seeing the signs of the second strategy. The basics still show you are stuck with the old strategy. I want to pose that question to you that how we can convince Pakistan that the current government [break in audio]. Amrullah Saleh: Well, the gentlemen who are sitting in the panel there, they understand fully that Afghanistan will never be able to cause a conventional threat against the security of Pakistan or against the defense establishment of Pakistan. It is the sentiment of 0s. It is the Zia ul Haq syndrome which has gripped Pakistan, and they are not giving it up. They consider us as their natural cipher of influence. If they give up that thing, Afghanistan will become a changed country in its attitude and outlook to Pakistan. 1 0 Hanif Atmarand: Thank you. Now I want to bring Mr. Atmar into that. I think we need to go back to the point from a little while ago. We 1 need to look to the future. We need to look at our options as to how to address our current miserable situation on both sides. I will basically suggest the following: Number 1, the leaderships... state leaderships in the two countries will have to come together and have a heart-to-heart discussion about mutual concerns and mutual expectations. These concerns and expectations will have to be addressed in an active and accountable manner.

26 There is absolutely no substitute to such a process. Number : the Afghan government and our people have [break in audio]... a policy of reconciliation and peace. We would like to make peace with Afghans who would like to respect our constitution and would like to join the political process based on Afghan aspirations for peace, democracy, and rule of law. Now, in this process, Pakistan has an important role and we expect Pakistan to deliver on that role. Number #: the people-to-people connection is more important than the politicians are actually at this point acknowledging. I would very much welcome the kind of initiative that we have today between Afghan people and Pakistani people. Let s move beyond this blame game. Let s, for the sake of our children and the future of our two nations... let s deal with the hard issues. I don t see any structural problem that would prevent us. I see, obviously, policies that are wrongly perceived and formulated. Let s work together in the best interest of our two nations. This is possible. We have to respond to a future... a secure future for our children. Thank you, Mr. Atmar. Now, we want to take two questions: Mr. Jawid Summit and Ali Abdullah. 1 Male Speaker: Our dearest panelists from both sides told us that we should talk about the future and we should get into action to the future. As always, I mentioned to my friends that... there is an expression that I always say and I want to tell to both sides that ideas are nothing without actions. We create ideas here. We do the talking here. We come to a coincidence here and we should try to make it into action and make it happen into reality. The other thing is that two months ago I was in Karachi, and I was there for a conference among Pakistanis. When I was there, I feel so insecure more than here. It s not that... there is a political war continuing in Pakistan also. The situation, the security is also not good in Pakistan; likewise, in Afghanistan, too. There are many terrorist attacks here and also terrorist attacks in Pakistan. So, I just... I want to say that... what should we do?