Parliamentary Debates

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1 Fifty-second Parliament Parliamentary Debates (HANSARD) CORRECTED DAILY (subject to minor change before inclusion in Bound Volume) Wednesday, 1 August 2018 (for inclusion in Volume 731) WELLINGTON, NEW ZEALAND Published under the authority of the House of Representatives 2018

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3 WEDNESDAY, 1 AUGUST 2018 TABLE OF CONTENTS ORAL QUESTIONS Questions to Ministers Question No. 1 Prime Minister Question No. 2 Education Question No. 3 Finance Question No. 4 Finance Question No. 5 Education Question No. 6 Internal Affairs Question No. 7 Justice Question No. 8 Internal Affairs Question No. 9 Research, Science and Innovation Question No. 10 Corrections Question No. 11 Conservation Question No. 12 Education POINTS OF ORDER Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill Leave to Publish Select Committee Report URGENT DEBATES DECLINED Deputy Commissioner of Police Inquiry Resignation of Pauline Kingi GENERAL DEBATE ESTIMATES DEBATE In Committee Social Services and Community Sector (continued) Clauses 1 to 10 and schedules 1 to OVERSEAS INVESTMENT AMENDMENT BILL In Committee Part 1 Sensitive land Speaker Recalled In Committee Part 2 Amendments relating to consent and conditions regime for overseas investments in sensitive New Zealand assets

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5 1 Aug 2018 Oral Questions 5481 Mr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m. Karakia. WEDNESDAY, 1 AUGUST 2018 ORAL QUESTIONS QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS Question No. 1 Prime Minister 1. Hon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government s policies and actions? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister): Yes. Hon Simon Bridges: Is he concerned, in his last day as Prime Minister, that unemployment is rising, with an extra 4,000 people unemployed in the latest figures? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: The facts are that this country has the third-highest level of employment in the 35-country OECD the third-highest level and on the examination of the previous Government s record, they never got below, in all those years, 4.8. We re at 4.5. Hon Simon Bridges: Is he concerned that job creation under his Government has more than halved, from 10,000 new jobs a month to 4,000 now? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: The reality is that we have a record high rate of employment among Māori; a record high rate of employment amongst women; a serious drop in the neets, or the young people not in education, employment, or training; and Treasury predicts that we ll be steady on about 4.5 or 4.4 percent. Hon Simon Bridges: What effect does he think the changes to the overseas investment rules will have on the job markets and job creation? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: The very effect that it s having now none. The only job that seems to be at risk in this country is over there. Hon Simon Bridges: What effect does he think the Government s industrial law changes will have on the jobs market and unemployment? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: The effect that the industrial relations in this country are going to be a case where the once-neglected working people of this country are going to get a fair go. That s why they re lining up in their hundreds of thousands at this present time. They know that we need strategic leadership in business and in the unions, but the Government will do its job to bring them together. Hon Simon Bridges: What effect does he think that banning oil and gas exploration, increased taxes, over 130 working groups and inquiries, and softening up the obligations on people to work will have on job creation and unemployment? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: That statement, to quote Geoffrey Palmer, is false and it s malicious and it s not true. Hon Simon Bridges: Which part? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: The part about banning oil and gas exploration he s been told over and over again in this House that it s not true. They know it s not true, and being the number one grumpy in this country won t help. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Order! The Acting Prime Minister has just indicated that the Leader of the Opposition has deliberately misled the House. He cannot do that. He will withdraw and apologise. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I withdraw and apologise. I know Mr SPEAKER: No, no, that s the end of it, thank you. Hon Simon Bridges: Is he concerned that wages aren t keeping up with inflation, even before there was a 25 percent a litre fuel tax increase that has come into force on 1 July?

6 5482 Oral Questions 1 Aug 2018 Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Every economist all the way to the IMF has pointed to the fact that wages are on the rise in New Zealand, but responsibly so responsibly so. We cannot catch up with our Australian friends in terms of average earnings down $149 a week, on average. We can t catch the Aussies up with the pathway that they recommend: low wages, mass immigration, and people being degraded. Hon Grant Robertson: Can the Prime Minister confirm that today s employment data confirms that wages grew in June, with private sector wage rates up 2.1 percent annually, and that the quarterly employment survey data for average total weekly earnings increased 3.3 percent from a year ago? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I am very happy to say that that s a fact. Hon Simon Bridges: Does the Prime Minister not accept that wage growth has been lower and slower than inflation? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I ve got no idea where that member s been, but every other observer in this country, and also his backers, have been complaining about wage rises, and now he says they re down. He should make up his mind, please. Hon Simon Bridges: When he said yesterday, This Government has a tranche of explosive policies that will see a rapid turn-around in our country s economy, what policies was he talking about? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: They are the policies we ve already announced and the policies that are coming, from a very reformative Government. Hon Simon Bridges: Give me one. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Give you one? Well, $1 billion a year for infrastructure in the provinces, in the regions. For the first time for a long time, a Government understands that the regions and the farm- and machine-hands of our country are great wealth creators. That s one for a start how many more does he want? Hon Simon Bridges: Does he believe Kiwi families are getting ahead under this Government, when unemployment is going up, job creation is falling, and wages aren t keeping up with the cost of living, all as a result of Government policies? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Since 1 July this year, over a million families are being improved, a million people are being helped, and there is more progress to come. For example, one of the most stunning results has been the winter energy payment, which has captured the imagination of so many people out there. Whereas in the past they used to go without and freeze, they ve got help now and it s of significant benefit to them. Look everywhere else in the country and you will see that this business of being a grumpy is not going to be successful in politics, because New Zealanders know better. Hon Amy Adams: The economy s slowing. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: And one last thing, Ms Adams, and it s this: why are we rising in the polls if what you say is right? Hon Simon Bridges: In his last day as Prime Minister, what does he say to the Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume his seat. The member will ask questions without prefaces, which he, I think, knows are almost certainly not correct. Hon Simon Bridges: What does he say to the 4,000 people who are now on the dole queue and weren t just a month or two ago? Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Well, that would have been not 4,000 under his administration about 25,000 more, because here are the figures for the last nine to 10 years. But can I just say, on the last day, which he mentioned, I fully expect a delegation to come to my office this evening before I go, but duty calls. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Once again, I very definitely and deliberately cut a part of the Leader of the Opposition s question because it was out of order. The Acting Prime Minister should not reply to out of order questions.

7 1 Aug 2018 Oral Questions 5483 Question No. 2 Education 2. Hon PAULA BENNETT (Deputy Leader National) to the Minister of Education: Has he seen advice from Education New Zealand which estimates that the proposed changes to post-study work rights for international students could cost the economy $486 million a year, and how many jobs are projected to be lost within private training establishments as a result of these changes? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I was sent that initial advice from Education New Zealand on the proposed changes to post-study work rights for international students. It s important to note the advice did not take into account international students choosing higher qualifications to study in New Zealand as a result of the changes. It was different from the advice presented by immigration officials, and it did not model for any different scenarios. I did ask, as a result of that, for more robust modelling to be done by both agencies, and we have now received that advice. Final decisions have not yet been made on any changes to post-study work rights. Hon Paula Bennett: Has he seen the report from Aspire2 that the proposed changes could be a direct hit to the economy of between $1.1 billion and $1.4 billion and result in a loss of up to 1,000 jobs? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Not only have I seen those reports, I have discussed them directly with Aspire2, who said to me that that was their black hat, doomsday scenario and they didn t think the impact would be that bad. However, they did put forward serious concerns about the changes and a number of suggestions. I will consider those, and I will discuss those with my colleagues. Hon Paula Bennett: I seek leave to table a letter that I received today, 1 August, from Aspire2 that outlines the very scenario that I ve just given. Mr SPEAKER: Did Hon Paula Bennett: It s a letter to me. Mr SPEAKER: A letter to the member. Is there any objection to the letter being tabled? There is no objection to the letter being tabled. Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House. Simeon Brown: Is the Minister concerned about the submission of Independent Tertiary Education New Zealand, who have said that international students would go to other countries such as Canada, where they have a clear idea of where they are heading, and is he happy for Canadians to benefit from the $1.4 billion spend in Kiwis? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I m not responsible for what the Canadians decide to do, but what I would say is that the Government has not made any decisions at this point, and we are carefully considering the feedback that we have received. I do want to be clear that some of the modelling that is being put forward to support some of the claims that are being made about the impact of the changes is completely unrealistic. It assumes, in many cases, that everybody who might be eligible for post-study work rights now takes them up, and that is not true. It assumes that everybody who might no longer be eligible for post-study work rights would not come to New Zealand if we change those settings, and that is also highly, highly, highly unlikely to be true. Simeon Brown: Has the Minister seen reports that his Government s proposed changes could leave Manukau Institute of Technology (MIT) financially unviable and cause enrolments for private training establishments to fall by 90 percent, resulting in significant job losses and closure of a number of campuses? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: It is absolutely correct that a number of our polytechnics in particular, the two large polytechnics in Auckland, MIT and Unitec are very

8 5484 Oral Questions 1 Aug 2018 dependent on international students at the moment, and that is largely because of the running down of the polytech system under the previous Government. Question No. 3 Finance 3 Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour Christchurch Central) to the Minister of Finance: What progress has been made on establishing the tripartite Forum on the Future of Work? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): I m pleased to say that the first Future of Work tripartite forum will take place tomorrow, here at Parliament. The forum brings together leaders representing business, workers, and the Government to collaborate and feed into both Government and private sector work programmes spread across four key themes for the future of work: technology, productivity, learning for life, and just transitions. This forum represents a major opportunity for all the key social partners in the economy to discuss how we can work together to meet the challenges and take the opportunities of a rapidly changing world of work. Dr Duncan Webb: Why has the Government organised the forum? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: While in Opposition, I chaired the Future of Work Commission, which looked at how we would ensure New Zealanders prepared for and are able to adapt to the challenges and opportunities presented by the changing world of work. We all know that technological advances and forces such as automation, outsourcing, and globalisation are transforming our world and our economy. New Zealand will stay ahead of the challenges and opportunities of the future of work only if we bring together the expertise and knowledge of business, Government, and workers, and that is exactly what this forum will do. Dr Duncan Webb: How does the Future of Work Forum fit into the Government s wider economic strategy? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: This Government is transitioning to a modern economy where we work smarter, make better use of our resources, and ensure that everyone has an opportunity to participate and succeed. The forces of change that we face present us with an opportunity to achieve this vision, but we know that we can t achieve this alone. Starting tomorrow, the forum will champion practical programmes to harness the potential of new technology and innovative ways of doing things, and educate and upskill our workforce to lift productivity and transition to an economy that is sustainable, inclusive, and productive, and not just reliant on population growth and housing speculation. Question No. 4 Finance 4. Hon AMY ADAMS (National Selwyn) to the Minister of Finance: Does he have confidence in the Government s management of the New Zealand economy? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): Yes, even more so today with the release of employment data that shows 94,000 more people employed in the June 2018 quarter compared to the June 2017 quarter; a fall in the rate of those young people not in employment, education, or training, from 12.4 percent to 10.9 percent; and the highest employment rates on record for Māori and women. Hon Amy Adams: Does he take it as a signal of confidence in the Government s economic management that the number of people unemployed has increased by 4,000 people in the last three months, the cost of living is increasing faster than wages, and job growth is half of what it was under the previous National Government? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The number of people unemployed the unemployment rate has gone up from 4.4 to 4.5 percent. That puts it lower than what we inherited, at 4.8 percent, from the previous Government. And I repeat, there are

9 1 Aug 2018 Oral Questions ,000 more people employed in the June quarter compared to June And I would say, in the year before that, June 2016 to June 2017, it was only 76,000. This Government is actually building the number of people in employment. Hon Amy Adams: Does he take it as a signal of confidence in the Government s economic management that former ANZ chief economist Cameron Bagrie has described the economy as being at stall speed, Infometrics have said it is clear that businesses are giving up hope on the economy, and a survey by Federated Farmers has reported a fivefold increase in pessimism over the last 12 months? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The first of those people, Cameron Bagrie, also said today that it was necessary for us to shift to a more sustainable economy and a more productive one away, I might say, from population growth and house price rises, echoing John Key s comments from the weekend and what Cameron Bagrie said was that it will take time for other parts of the economy to step up. We re getting on with the job of actually supporting those other parts of the economy to step up, rather than sitting on the side lines grumpily carping. Hon Amy Adams: Does he take it as a signal of confidence in the Government s economic management that senior economists are now talking about our economy probably growing at around only 1.5 percent, compared to Treasury s forecast of 3 percent a drop that would cost the Government billions of dollars in revenue? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The consensus forecasts that came out this month show a 3 percent growth over the forecast period. The IMF supports that, the Reserve Bank supports that, and Treasury supports that. The member might want to talk the New Zealand economy down, but, actually, we are in a transition period. The economy is continuing to grow in a sustainable way. Hon Amy Adams: So when he said in the House yesterday and today that the Government is transitioning the economy, did he, in fact, mean that the Government is transitioning us from a high-growth economy with falling unemployment and wages rising at twice the rate of inflation to, in fact, a low-growth economy with more people on the unemployment benefit and the cost of living increasing faster than wages? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Absolutely not. What I meant was that we were going to transition away from an economy that even the member s former leader is now acknowledging was built on population growth and housing speculation. That s not sustainable. What is sustainable is actually investing a billion dollars a year in our regions, giving a billion dollars worth of research and development support, creating a Green Investment Fund, and getting alongside the business community to grow longterm, sustainable jobs. I m proud that this Government is finally facing up to issues that were ignored for nine years. Question No. 5 Education 5. Hon NIKKI KAYE (National Auckland Central) to the Minister of Education: Does he agree with the Prime Minister regarding teacher strikes, who said if we had more money we would have put it up there, and what would be the salary increase for primary teachers if the Government had not prioritised free tertiary fees and instead put that funding into teacher salaries? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): Yes, the Acting Prime Minister is a man of great wisdom and foresight, who speaks with great exactitude. To put the current offer into context, over the last eight years teachers received an increase in their base salary rates of 1.2 percent a year on average. What the current offer on the table from the Ministry of Education equates to is an increase in base salary rates of 2.4 percent a year on average double what they received under the last Government, despite current inflation being lower than it was on average over those last eight years,

10 5486 Oral Questions 1 Aug 2018 of course partly because of the spike in GST. With regard to the second part of the question, this Government has no intention of returning to the elitist attitude that only those who can afford to pay for tertiary education should be able to participate in it. Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will now address the second part of the question. Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: With regard to the second part of the question, it would be almost impossible to make that calculation. Mr SPEAKER: I was Minister of Education, I think, when the member was at school, and it s probably my fault that the maths are like that. Hon Nikki Kaye: Isn t it true that the primary teacher salary package proposal could be paid for twice over if it weren t for him prioritising tertiary students instead of teachers? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I want to be very clear here that the current Government paid for the fees-free policy by cancelling the tax cuts that were going to be put in place by the previous National Government. So the assertion by the member opposite that if we hadn t done that the money would be available for primary teacher salaries is completely wrong. Jo Luxton: Does the coalition Government intend to reverse the fees-free policy? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: To be abundantly clear, the coalition Government has no intention of reversing the fees-free policy. All three parties in the Government have signed up to it and are committed to it. It s very unclear what the alternative is, because none of the members opposite will say what they are going to do. Hon Nikki Kaye: Does he agree with NZEI Te Riu Roa that the offer of just 12 minutes of time extra a week to work individually with children or plan and assess learning is not good enough, and why is he not considering smaller class sizes to reduce teacher workload and help resolve the strikes? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I agree with many of the concerns being put forward by NZEI Te Riu Roa, including the fact that we have a teacher supply challenge ahead of us because there was a 40 percent reduction in the number of people training to be teachers under the last National Government. I also agree with the concerns put forward by the NZEI about teacher workload, and that was one of the drivers behind the scrapping of national standards a decision this Government made because they led to a massive increase in teacher workload, with no discernible increase in student achievement as a result of that. Hon Nikki Kaye: Does he agree with the Acting Prime Minister, who said in relation to primary teacher strikes, striking and putting a whole lot of parents and children at enormous difficulty is not the best idea., and has he asked the Acting Prime Minister to give him some of the hundreds of millions he s spending on diplomats instead of teachers? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: That s a ridiculous question. The Government is going into the bargaining with primary teachers in good faith. Mediation is taking place this week. I do note, once again, that what they are being offered by this Government is twice the average increase they received under the previous Government. We value the work of teachers. We know we ve got a lot of work to do in this area, but I note that we cannot undo nine years of damage in nine months. Hon Nikki Kaye: What specific support package has he put in place to help working parents who may have no ability to look after their children if a school closes their doors? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I m not going to speculate on the strike action at this point. Mediation is under way this week. I hope that that mediation will lead to a positive outcome. The Government does not want teachers to take strike action, and we ll certainly be working to avoid that.

11 1 Aug 2018 Oral Questions 5487 Question No. 6 Internal Affairs 6. DARROCH BALL (NZ First) to the Minister of Internal Affairs: What plans does the Government have to assist with international firefighting efforts? Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs): At the weekend, Fire and Emergency New Zealand received a formal request from the United States to assist it to combat the wildfires ranging across the north and north-west of the United States. Later this week, Thursday or Friday, a team of up to 40 New Zealand fire personnel will head for the US as part of the Anzac team. Team members will spend up to seven weeks in the US and after being inducted at Boise, Idaho are likely to deploy to northern parts of California. The request illustrates the high regard in which our fire personnel are held internationally. Darroch Ball: Is the Minister aware of any other requests? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Overnight, we received a formal request from Canada to assist with the growing number of wildfires in Ontario, British Columbia, and the Yukon Territory. A New Zealand liaison officer is heading to Canada this afternoon to work through the detail of the request, and we aim to have a team headed for Canada early next week. The Canadian deployment will also be a joint exercise with Australia. Since 2000, we have participated in 20 overseas deployments to the US, Canada, and Australia. With climate change, we anticipate more such requests in the years ahead. Darroch Ball: What benefit is there for New Zealand in these deployments? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: They provide great development opportunities for our personnel, they come at no financial cost to us the countries to which we deploy meet the costs and they build our international relations. Because the assistance is provided through a reciprocal agreement, we know that the US, Canada, and Australia will come to our assistance if we need help. Deployments like this give us invaluable expertise managing large wildfires. Question No. 7 Justice 7. Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National Nelson) to the Minister of Justice: Does he agree with the reported statement by Rt Hon Winston Peters yesterday on the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill that if MPs were allowed to party-hop that would destroy the democratic fundamentals of society, and his previous statement that Members of Parliament have to be free to follow their conscience. They were elected to represent their constituents, not to swear an oath of blind allegiance to a political party? Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice): Yes and yes, because the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill will maintain the principle that it is voters who decide the make-up of Parliament, and it does not compromise an MP s obligation to represent their constituents. Hon Dr Nick Smith: How can the statement be true that if MPs were allowed to party hop it would destroy the democratic fundamentals of society, when the New Zealand Labour Party was founded by members changing party midway through our 19 th Parliament and the New Zealand National Party was founded by members changing party midway through our 26 th Parliament, and when these two parties have actually been fundamental to our democracy and society s success over the past 80 years? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: This Government is very firmly placed in the 21 st century and what is needed for good governance of the country today, and acts consistently with the fundamental principle of MMP, which it is that the electorate decides the make-up of Parliament, not individual MPs. Hon Dr Nick Smith: How can the statement be true that if MPs were allowed to party hop it would destroy the democratic foundations of society, when that has been

12 5488 Oral Questions 1 Aug 2018 the law since 2005 and there have been minimal changes in party affiliation since then and absolutely no evidence of our democracy being destroyed? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: The objective of the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill is to affirm the fundamental principle of MMP, which is that the proportionality of party representation in Parliament is fundamental, it s a decision of the electorate, and it should not be interfered with by individual decisions of individual MPs. Hon Dr Nick Smith: How can the statement be true that if MPs were allowed to party hop it would destroy the democratic fundamentals of society, when the Rt Hon Winston Churchill is recognised as one of the greatest parliamentarians of modern times but whom party hopped twice, including over the policy of appeasement towards Nazi Germany? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: We are genuinely entering the realms of absurdity when the fundamental principle of MMP is somehow now being sort of compared to the actions of the Rt Hon Winston Churchill a totally different set of constitutional arrangements and a totally different situation. I go back to the basic principle of the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill, which is that it is the role of the electorate, of voters, to make the decision on the make-up of Parliament, rather than individual MPs arrogating to themselves the pious privilege of deciding what parties should be represented by what numbers in Parliament. Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does he agree that the democratic fundamentals of society would be destroyed if MPs were allowed to party hop, and, if so, where is the evidence of democracy being destroyed when Rod Donald and Jeanette Fitzsimons party hopped from the Alliance Party to the Green Party in 1998? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: The basic principle of MMP is that it is for the electorate to decide the share of each party s vote in Parliament. That is why it is called mixed member proportional representation. It is diametrically opposed to that principle to allow individuals MPs, on a whim, to decide they re no longer part of the party under whose banner they entered Parliament, therefore destroying proportionality of party representation, therefore undermining that principle of MMP. That is what the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill seeks to affirm. Rt Hon Winston Peters: If democratic destruction is what s at issue here and it is too collective with the formation of parties, is it not a fact that the ROC Party, Māori Party, Mana Wahine, Mauri Pacific, United Party, and the United Future party all went down by their association with National? Mr SPEAKER: No responsibility. Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does he agree with today s statement by Dr Bryce Edwards of Victoria University that the bill itself is bad enough for democracy but the process surrounding the bill has also been a blow against democracy, especially with the Green Party misleading the public on their crucial U-turn in supporting the legislation? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: No. Question No. 8 Internal Affairs 8. CHRIS BISHOP (National Hutt South) to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Does she have confidence in Pauline Kingi leading the independent enquiry into the process around the appointment of Mr Wally Haumaha as Deputy Commissioner of Police? Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs): In light of Dr Kingi s credentials, the information provided to me by the Department of Internal Affairs, her work history, and her signed declaration that she had no conflict or perceived conflict, then yes. However, it is with regret that I have to inform the House that Dr Pauline Kingi advised the Government just before I came to the House that she is going to stand

13 1 Aug 2018 Oral Questions 5489 down from the inquiry into the appointment process for a Deputy Commissioner of Police. Ever since she was appointed to the role, she has been the subject of political attack. Those have been attacks on her integrity, attacks on her reputation, and even attacks on her legal qualification. Dr Kingi has a 28-year career in public service as both a community member and senior public servant, and as a lawyer. She was asked to perform a public duty, and yet became the subject of an undue and unwarranted criticism. The Government has accepted her resignation and will commence the process to find a replacement. Chris Bishop: Will she now assure the House that the Government will run a credible and independent inquiry that is not run by someone who has endorsed the subject of the inquiry 23 times on LinkedIn? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Can I draw the member s attention to the Auditor- General s description of conflict: 2.38 Questions of judgement and degree also arise when considering friends and other associates. However, in our view it is unrealistic to expect the member or official to have absolutely no connection with or knowledge of the person concerned. New Zealand is a small and interconnected society. So, for example, we consider that simply being acquainted with [a person], or having worked with them, or having had official dealings with them, will not usually create any problem. Can I also remind the member that the process by which Dr Kingi was selected as the chair of the inquiry is the process that was created by the National Government in 2009 and amended by the National Government in Chris Bishop: How has she let herself and the Government get into a position where they appointed to lead an independent inquiry someone who has close connections to the subject of the inquiry and who has endorsed him 23 times on LinkedIn? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I actually take issue with the member around close connections and I would actually ask the member to prove that. Hon Simon Bridges: Then why s she gone? Mr SPEAKER: Order! Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I ask the member to prove it [Interruption] Mr SPEAKER: Order! Hon TRACEY MARTIN: and I also draw the member s attention to the fact that LinkedIn Hon Simon Bridges: Why did you sack her? Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume her seat. I ve, I think, three times asked by calling order the Leader of the Opposition to, effectively, tone down the volume, and now we have an out-of-order interjection, as well. This is an important matter. It s someone s reputation or two people s reputations at least are involved, and I think the House owes it in these circumstances to be able to hear the Minister, and with that sort of yelling people won t. I just remind I think for the fourth time in the last two days the Leader of the Opposition to cease interjecting involving me. Hon TRACEY MARTIN: So just with regard to LinkedIn, again, advice has been received from the Cabinet Office and from Hon Gerry Brownlee: Why did the Government sack her? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Ms Kingi resigned because of disgusting accusations by the Opposition that impinged on her integrity, based on a LinkedIn profile, which is a social media account that has been shown, and advice has been received, does not [Interruption] Mr SPEAKER: Order! I cannot I m very close to the member and I cannot hear her, mainly, I think, because Opposition members barracking is coming through my mikes. Hon Gerry Brownlee: We re doing you a favour.

14 5490 Oral Questions 1 Aug 2018 Mr SPEAKER: No, no I m first of all going to have the shadow Leader of the House Hon Gerry Brownlee: I withdraw and apologise. Mr SPEAKER: Right. Tracey Martin she was partway through the answer and I didn t hear the end of it. Rt Hon Winston Peters: Should people who have offered to fill a public office be the subject of vituperation, defamatory statements and comments, and have their integrity challenged purely for a venal political purpose? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: In my opinion, no. Chris Bishop: Did the Minister ask Pauline Kingi to resign as chair of the inquiry or did she resign voluntarily? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I have not had any opportunity to have any conversations with Ms Kingi. All interactions with Ms Kingi have been dealt with by the Department of Internal Affairs. Chris Bishop: Will she now order an inquiry into the appointment process around the chair of the independent inquiry leading an independent inquiry into the appointment of Mr Wally Haumaha as Deputy Commissioner of Police? Hon TRACEY MARTIN: As the member might know, no single member can make a decision about an inquiry. That would be something that would have to be taken to Cabinet, and all of Cabinet would have to make a decision. Question No. 9 Research, Science and Innovation 9. Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour New Lynn) to the Minister of Research, Science and Innovation: What progress has been made on the implementation of a Research and Development tax incentive? Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Research, Science and Innovation): Submissions on the Government s research and development (R & D) tax credit closed on 1 July this year. We received 214 submissions from businesses and other stakeholders, and I d like to thank everybody who took the time to share their knowledge and experiences with us. We ve listened with an open mind about how to make the R & D tax incentive a world-class, open, and efficient system to finally increase New Zealand s investment in research and development. Since submissions closed, the Government has been working hard to further develop the policy based on the feedback we ve received. Legislation will be introduced in October this year so the R & D tax incentive can be in place by 1 April Eligible businesses paying tax will be able to benefit from this policy from that date. Dr Deborah Russell: What were the main themes in the submissions? Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: During the consultation period, we received invaluable technical feedback on how the tax credit could be used to further incentivise research and development. Among other issues, submitters agreed with measures to ensure the scheme was transparent and included mechanisms to control expenditure. That was a particular area that was received positively. There were also suggestions for how to expand the proposed definition in the New Zealand context, and this is something we re continuing to consider closely. Another theme identified in the document was the challenges of pre-profit businesses and the need to recognise additional encouragement into R & D. The submitters agreed with the measures put out in the consultation document and we re committed to further work in this area. This invaluable feedback has been crucial in the discussions we re now having about the final design Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member s gone well beyond the question. Dr Deborah Russell: Does the Minister anticipate that changes will be made to the design of the tax credit as a result of the consultation process?

15 1 Aug 2018 Oral Questions 5491 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: No final decisions have been made, but, as I said earlier, we ve listened and engaged in an open-minded consultation process. We re confident that the final design will receive wide support. We re committed to achieving our ambitious target Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume her seat. Question No. 10 Corrections 10. Hon DAVID BENNETT (National Hamilton East) to the Minister of Corrections: What advice has he sought, if any, in relation to footage posted on YouTube which appears to be of Mongrel Mob gang members using tattooing equipment on one another at Rimutaka Prison? Hon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister of Corrections): I have been advised by the Department of Corrections that Rimutaka Prison staff have moved quickly to identify prisoners in the online video. The site emergency response team undertook a search operation and a cellphone was recovered quickly and is being forensically examined. I expect that the prisoners identified will be held to account for their behaviour. I also appreciate images of prisoners available online will be of particular concern to the victims of offending; corrections are asking YouTube to have the content removed. Hon David Bennett: Does he think corrections officers are smuggling in the equipment being used to tattoo prisoners and the phones being used to post their tattooing online? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: When I was in Opposition I found it unacceptable for corrections officers to smuggle in contraband. Nothing has changed now that I am in Government. I have high expectations of their behaviour. I have no tolerance for corrections officers who are found to be abusing their position in prisons. They endanger themselves and their peers. Hon David Bennett: Is it true that when allegations are made that corrections officers are smuggling contraband into prisons, and these allegations are made through the proper channels, the people who make those allegations are fobbed off by corrections, as the Minister s previously said? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: I just want to repeat the last answer that I gave. If you want me to repeat it word for word I can, but the fact of the matter is it is unacceptable for any corrections officers to smuggle contraband in. They endanger themselves and they endanger their peers. I expect corrections to deal with any corrections officers that are found to be smuggling contraband into prisons, and deal with it swiftly. Greg O Connor: What steps has he taken to address the number of prisoners giving or receiving a tattoo in prison? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: The Corrections Amendment Bill will make it a disciplinary offence for a prisoner to tattoo another prisoner, or consent to receive a tattoo from another prisoner, or to tattoo themselves. I ve also asked the corrections to look into a national tattoo removal strategy. Some tattoos, in particular gang patches, can have an impact on the ability for some prisoners to transition back into communities. If we want people to have the best chance in leading a better life after prison, then we need to take steps like removing gang patches to help them successfully transition back into communities. Hon David Bennett: Has he taken any action regarding prison officers who have allegedly been bringing contraband into prisons that he said in the past he knew the names of and that had been given to him? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: I have no responsibility for the actions that occurred under the previous Government.

16 5492 Oral Questions 1 Aug 2018 Hon David Bennett: Does he still believe corrections takes a view that protecting its reputation is more important than the safety and transparency of the prison system, as he has said in the past? Hon KELVIN DAVIS: No, not under my watch. Question No. 11 Conservation 11. SARAH DOWIE (National Invercargill) to the Minister of Conservation: Is it still Government policy that there will be no new mining on conservation land? Hon EUGENIE SAGE (Minister of Conservation): Kia orana. Minister Woods and I are making good progress on how to implement the Government s policy of no new mines on conservation land. Sarah Dowie: Why, if it is Government policy that no new mining is to occur on conservation land, has she allowed access for prospecting in Mount Richmond Forest Park, the Howard conservation area, Victoria Forest Park, and the Rock and Pillar Conservation Area if there is no intention to approve mining activity on successful prospects? Hon EUGENIE SAGE: The member might want to ask her colleague, former energy Minister Simon Bridges about that, as it appears that the previous administration was wanting to facilitate more extensive mining on high-value conservation lands across the board. That three-year moratorium on prospecting was something that the former Government put in place not to protect conservation land but to enable extensive aerial magnetic and geochemical surveys in order to identify the lands potential for mining. That three-year moratorium came to an end in July. Sarah Dowie: Does she agree with conservation groups that Government actions in inviting new prospecting permits for these areas is evidence that the ban on new mining on conservation land is a charade? Hon EUGENIE SAGE: The member should check the facts. That was a moratorium put in place by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE). The end of the moratorium on 8 July simply meant that it returned to the status quo. The grant of a prospecting or an exploration permit by MBIE does not guarantee access to the land that s the subject of a separate access arrangement application. Sarah Dowie: When regional economic development Minister, Shane Jones, made the statement that stewardship areas can be taken out of the conservation estate to be mined, was that what the Government meant when it announced in the Speech from the Throne that there would be no new mining on conservation land? Hon EUGENIE SAGE: Stewardship land is conservation land. On the West Coast, quite a large part of the million hectares of stewardship land is part of the South West New Zealand World Heritage Area. It is internationally significant. It is conservation land, and the whole status of stewardship land and mining on it is being considered as part of the development of the policy, which will go out for consultation in September, which the member will be able to make a submission on. Sarah Dowie: Will she remain as Minister of Conservation if new mines are approved by the Government on any of today s conservation estate? Hon EUGENIE SAGE: Yes. I am very proud of the work that I m doing as the Minister of Conservation and this Government s commitment to backing nature with the increased investment in conservation after nine years of neglect by that former Government. Question No. 12 Education 12. MARJA LUBECK (Labour) to the Minister of Education: What steps is the Government taking to ensure that New Zealand s qualification system meets the needs of citizens and employers?

17 1 Aug 2018 Oral Questions 5493 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): Good news: today, I announced that micro-credentials will be rolled out from the end of this month to give employers and people who want to keep learning more opportunities to access new skills quickly Hon Gerry Brownlee: Cowboy qualifications. Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: There s hope for you yet, Gerry. Micro-credentials are stand-alone education products that certify the achievement of a set of skills and knowledge required by industry it s going downhill for you, Gerry at professional associations, iwi, or the community. They fit well with the coalition Government s Future of Work programme, bringing together businesses and workers alongside Government to plan how we face the changing nature of work and industry training. Marja Lubeck: What feedback has he had from industry about the micro-credentials announcement? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Business New Zealand has welcomed the flexibility and innovation that micro-credentials will bring, saying, This is a great new way of engaging with employees and responding to employer skill demands. The Building and Construction Industry Training Organisation has called it a great step forward and says that it s delighted by the move, and the Primary Industry Training Organisation says that it will help them to respond to pressing industry demands, including [things like] the eradication of Mycoplasma bovis. Marja Lubeck: How are micro-credentials different from qualifications? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Qualifications tend to be larger and take longer to complete. They re normally 40 credits or more in size. Micro-credentials are more likely going to be in the 5- to 40-credit range. It s also important to note that the way they are going to be approved and funded will be different, and that they are going to be developed very closely in association with business and industry to ensure they meet the real and pressing needs business and industry are indicating they have. Rt Hon Winston Peters: Will the Minister or the Government be deterred by these constant attacks on this six-week programme from Gerry Brownlee, because of the fact that it s actually longer in real terms than the tertiary education he had? Mr SPEAKER: No, no I think [Interruption] No, no, I m I think that that was an out of order question. I also think that the right honourable gentleman knows that that was the case, and therefore he has been disorderly and will withdraw the question. Rt Hon Winston Peters: I withdraw and apologise. POINTS OF ORDER Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill Leave to Publish Select Committee Report Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National Nelson): I seek leave of the House for the draft Justice Committee report on the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill to be published under the authority of the House under Standing Order 373. Mr SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that? There is objection. URGENT DEBATES DECLINED Deputy Commissioner of Police Inquiry Resignation of Pauline Kingi CHRIS BISHOP (National Hutt South): I seek leave for the House to hold an urgent debate on the resignation of Pauline Kingi from the position of chair of the independent inquiry into the appointment of Wally Haumaha as Deputy Commissioner of Police, in light of the fact that this was brought to the House s attention just moments ago in question time. There was no time, of course, to mount an urgent debate in the normal way to you through correspondence. Mr SPEAKER: Well, I think my understanding is the normal way of doing that is to get a letter to me. I have actually written such letters; I don t think I ve ever had one

18 5494 Urgent Debates Declined 1 Aug 2018 accepted during question time. But it is a matter of leave. I m not going to make a habit of this because it will be disorderly, but in these circumstances I will put the question to the House. Is there any objection? There is objection. While we re on that matter, I want to make an apology to the House: I did not pick up the member s spelling error in his question. GENERAL DEBATE Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. It is a great day to be part of this coalition Government, a Government that is positive, optimistic, and working together to provide strong and stable leadership for this country. I want to acknowledge particularly the Acting Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, and thank him for his leadership over the last six weeks. As I indicated earlier, he is a man of great wisdom and foresight, who has led this country Hon Grant Robertson: Seriously. Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: for the last 6 weeks in a seriously well manner. He speaks with great exactitude, and that is something that we are very proud of on this side of the House. I could understand, however, if the Acting Prime Minister was feeling a little deflated and disappointed by his experience over the last six weeks. He may well have been expecting to be put through his paces during the six weeks he was Acting Prime Minister, and instead he got Simon Bridges. So if he s feeling a little disappointed, that s fully understandable. This is a Leader of the Opposition who was upstaged not once, not twice, not three times, but four times during his first National Party conference. First, he had John Key. You know you re in trouble when they wheel out the last person, to remind you of how good they were. So he was upstaged by him, and then, of course, the great hope for the future: John Howard was the great hope for the future! Simon Bridges decided to demonstrate just how modern and progressive he is by wheeling out his hero, John Howard, to the National Party conference. Then, of course, he was upstaged by Mark Mitchell. Mark who? I think most of the country will be saying, but he was upstaged by Mark Mitchell during his conference, and then, of course, he was upstaged by the Prime Minister during that as well. There is an insight into Simon Bridges modern and progressive thinking in some of the comments that he made. For example, he wanted to demonstrate how down he is with young people by talking about his online banking, which he lost the password to six months ago so he still writes cheques. I didn t even know that people were still issuing cheques, but Simon Bridges is still using them. Simon Bridges offers a Walkman solution in a smartphone world. But they did come up with what they think they thought really hard and thought, We need a bold new policy. I know! More teachers and smaller class sizes. This was the bold new innovation from the party that tried to increase class sizes last time they were in Government. As the Minister of Education, I thought, This is good. This is going to be a good debate for us. I look forward to getting into this debate, because I also value the role of teachers and want to see class sizes in New Zealand smaller. It s a position I think all of the parties in Government have held for some time. So I looked up the details of the National Party s policy announcement, because I was looking forward to the debate on this, and there weren t any. I could not find any details. So I listened to Simon Bridges interviews. I thought, It s all right. It will all become clear as to what it is that the National Party is promising. So, first of all, what about how much it s going to cost? How much would it cost for their policy? I thought that was a good place to start. This is an exact quote: The hundreds ballpark, not