Councillors on the frontline

Transcription

1 House of Commons Communities and Local Government Committee Councillors on the frontline Sixth Report of Session Volume I: Report, together with formal minutes, oral and written evidence Additional written evidence is contained in Volume II, available on the Committee website at Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 17 December 2012 HC 432 Published on 10 January 2013 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited 23.00

2 The Communities and Local Government Committee The Communities and Local Government Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Department for Communities and Local Government. Current membership Mr Clive Betts MP (Labour, Sheffield South-East) (Chair) Bob Blackman MP (Conservative, Harrow East) Simon Danczuk MP (Labour, Rochdale) Bill Esterson MP (Labour, Sefton Central) Stephen Gilbert MP (Liberal Democrat, St Austell and Newquay) David Heyes MP (Labour, Ashton under Lyne) James Morris MP (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis) Mark Pawsey MP (Conservative, Rugby) Andy Sawford MP (Labour, Corby) John Stevenson MP (Conservative, Carlisle) Heather Wheeler MP (Conservative, South Derbyshire) Heidi Alexander MP (Labour, Lewisham East) and George Hollingbery (Conservative, Meon Valley) were also members of the Committee during this inquiry. Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the internet via Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at A list of Reports of the Committee in the present Parliament is at the back of this volume. The Reports of the Committee, the formal minutes relating to that report, oral evidence taken and some or all written evidence are available in a printed volume. Additional written evidence may be published on the internet only. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Glenn McKee (Clerk), Sarah Heath (Second Clerk), Stephen Habberley (Inquiry Manager), Kevin Maddison (Committee Specialist), Emily Gregory (Senior Committee Assistant), Mandy Sullivan (Committee Assistant), Stewart McIlvenna, (Committee Support Assistant) and Hannah Pearce (Media Officer). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Communities and Local Government Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is ; the Committee s address is clgcom@parliament.uk

3 Councillors on the frontline 1 Contents Report Page Summary 3 1 Introduction 5 The Councillors Commission 6 Our inquiry 6 Our report 7 2 Localism and the role of councillors 8 Councillors in the community 8 Working with external organisations 10 Empowering councillors 11 Influence over outsourced services 13 Guided and muscular localism 14 Structures and elections 14 Neighbourhood councils 14 Unitary authorities 15 Election arrangements 17 Ward composition 17 Structures and elections: conclusion 18 3 Representation and local democracy 19 The role of political parties 20 Looking beyond political parties 23 Independent councillors 25 The role of local government: promoting local democracy 26 Be a Councillor programme 28 4 Barriers to becoming and remaining a councillor 30 Time commitment 30 Employers 32 Remuneration 33 5 Councillor performance and training 37 Training 38 Skills 38 Providers of training 39 Training before election 41 6 Conclusion 42 Annex: Communities and Local Government Committee Discussion Forum 43 Conclusions and recommendations 57

4 2 Councillors on the frontline Formal Minutes 63 Witnesses 64 List of printed written evidence 65 List of additional written evidence 65 List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament 67

5 Councillors on the frontline 3 Summary The role of councillors is changing and becoming increasingly community-based. In future, councillors will be expected to spend more time out and about supporting their constituents, working with external organisations (such as GPs, schools, police, local businesses and voluntary organisations) and ensuring communities make the most of all the opportunities available to them. Councils should be devolving power and resources to their members to enable them to fulfil this role: we have seen some examples of good practice from which other councils can learn. The Government, in turn, has to fully embrace localism and give local authorities real ability to make decisions. With this new role, it is important that communities have councillors to whom they can relate. At present, the membership of many local authorities does not reflect the demographic make-up of the communities they serve. It is important to increase, for example, the proportion of women, younger people and black and minority ethnic people serving on local authorities. The political parties have an important part to play in this, and are already taking action; they need to make a concerted effort to ensure that their national policies are implemented in all parts of the country. Local authorities have to do more to promote democratic engagement, and popularise the idea of becoming a councillor. We identified three key practical barriers to people becoming and remaining councillors. First, some people are put off by the time commitment involved: as the role becomes increasingly demanding, councils should consider providing councillors with officer support to help them, for instance, to manage their casework. Second, employers do not always take a positive view of their staff becoming councillors and may not give them the support or time off work they need: the Government should consider whether employers can be given any encouragement or incentives to support their employees who are councillors. Third, while people do not become councillors for the money, the levels of allowances can be a deterrent to people standing for election. Councillors shy away from increasing allowances because they are conscious of the negative public and press reaction: to address this issue, councils should be given the power to transfer decisions about allowances to independent local bodies. It is important that appropriate mechanisms are in place to support councillors performance and train them in the skills they need. Councillors should be encouraged to report to their communities on their performance over the year; the parties should take this performance into account when deciding whether or not to reselect a councillor. Training should be adapted to meet the changing role of councillors, and should be considered a benefit, not a cost, to the local taxpayer. At a time when councillors are being called on to make increasingly difficult decisions about service reductions and budget priorities, they have more need than ever for the support and resources to enable them to undertake this role. It is therefore important that there are sufficient resources in place to meet their training and development needs.

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7 Councillors on the frontline 5 1 Introduction 1. Effective local democracy requires effective councillors. Up and down the country, councillors work tirelessly for their communities, as representatives, caseworkers, advocates, providers of scrutiny, and in countless other ways. Attention, however, is rarely given to who these councillors are and what their functions are, especially when compared to the bright spotlight beneath which national politicians live and operate. In conducting this inquiry, we have considered a number of issues about the role of councillors on principal authorities: the nature of their relationship with the communities they serve; approaches to recruiting candidates; barriers that might deter people from becoming councillors; and whether councillors are given the support and training they need to carry out the job effectively. 2. The last couple of decades have seen a number of changes to local government and the role of councillors, perhaps the most significant of which arose from the Local Government Act This Act brought about the end of the traditional committee system and required councils to choose one of four options for a new political structure: two involved directly elected mayors; one a leader and cabinet model; and the fourth option, available only to smaller councils, a streamlined committee structure. 1 Most councils opted for the leader and cabinet model. 2 It led to a split on local authorities between a small number of members with executive functions, and the remaining backbench councillors. These non-executive councillors were expected to play a stronger role in representing their community, and also to take on a role in scrutinising executive decision-making More recently, the Coalition Government has placed particular emphasis upon the concept of localism. Soon after its formation in May 2010, it committed itself to ending the era of top-down government by giving new powers to local councils, communities, neighbourhoods and individuals. 4 In a speech the following month, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Rt Hon Eric Pickles MP, stated that he had three very clear priorities for government: localism [...] localism [...] and [...] localism. 5 The debate about localism has led to new considerations about the role played by local authorities and their councillors. We will consider some of these issues and look at the extent to which localism is changing the role of councillors. 4. A key motivation for us to launch this inquiry came from statistics about those who serve on councils. In our terms of reference, we cited the National Census of Local Authority Councillors for England. Amongst other things, this census revealed that the 1 Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG), The New Council Constitution: The Outcomes and Impact of the Local Government Act 2000, pp Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG), The New Council Constitution: The Outcomes and Impact of the Local Government Act 2000, p 23 3 DCLG, The New Council Constitution: The Outcomes and Impact of the Local Government Act 2000, p 18. The Localism Act 2011 enables councils to return to the Committee system if they wish. 4 HM Government, The Coalition: our programme for government, May 2010, p 11 5 Speech by Rt Hon Eric Pickles MP to the Queen s Speech Forum, 11 June Available at:

8 6 Councillors on the frontline average age of a councillor was now 60; that only 31% of councillors were women; and that 96% were white. 6 The Councillors Commission 5. The issues we are considering in this report are nothing new. Following the publication back in 2006 of the Local Government White Paper, Strong and Prosperous Communities, the then Government established the independent Councillors Commission to review the incentives and barriers to people standing and serving as councillors. 7 The Commission, chaired by Dame Jane Roberts, former Leader of Camden Council, published its report, Representing the Future, in December The report made 61 recommendations and set out five key principles. In written evidence, Dame Jane stated: Representing the Future s principles, and most of its recommendations, were accepted by the government in The report was very well received by local government commentators, academics and many in local and central government although others seemed to find some of its recommendations more radical than perhaps they were willing to go along with. Political parties were not interested enough, a problem then and, I suspect, now. 9 While there were reservations about some of the Commission s findings, 10 overall it made a useful contribution to the debate about local democratic representation. The Councillors Commission set out some important principles about the role and recruitment of councillors, and shone a light on a number of important issues, some of which we have considered in this inquiry. Our inquiry 6. We began our inquiry with a seminar at the Local Government Association (LGA), where we met councillors from a range of backgrounds to discuss their motivations and experiences. 11 Following this we held four oral evidence sessions. One of these sessions took place in Sunderland, where we also met informally with councillors, officers and others, and saw the steps the council was taking to empower councillors through its Community Leadership Programme. To ensure that the evidence we received was comprehensive, we took the unusual step of issuing a further call for evidence. This call was targeted at groups from whom we would not normally hear and specifically sought views on why people chose or chose not to become councillors. It was publicised via Twitter and the local and national media, and generated a number of additional submissions (we received over 60 submissions in total). To enable us to explore the issues raised further, the Parliamentary Outreach Service organised a discussion forum with 31 people identified 6 Local Government Group and National Foundation for Educational Research, National Census of Local Authority Councillors 2010, October Figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. 7 DCLG, Government Response to the Councillors Commission, July 2008, p 8 8 DCLG, Representing the Future: the Report of the Councillors Commission, December Ev 146, para See, for example, Q 357 [Robert Neill MP]. 11 Ev w58

9 Councillors on the frontline 7 through the service s database: the participants included current councillors, former councillors and people who had chosen to serve their communities in other ways. A written record of this forum is annexed to our report Thanks are due to all those who contributed to our inquiry, including: the individuals and organisations who supplied us with written or oral evidence; the LGA for hosting the seminar, and all those councillors who attended; the Parliamentary Outreach Service for organising our discussion forum, and all who participated in the forum; Sunderland City Council for hosting our evidence session and visit, and all those we met in Sunderland; the parenting website Netmums, which conducted a survey of its members about their perceptions and experiences of councillors and local government; 13 and Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield of De Montfort University, who provided us with an analysis of the results of a survey of councillors in 16 countries across Europe. 14 Finally, we owe particular gratitude to our specialist adviser, Professor Tony Travers, of the London School of Economics and Political Science. 15 Our report 8. Our report falls into four parts. In Chapter 2 we consider how localism is impacting upon the role of councillors. Chapter 3 looks at issues relating to representation and local democracy, including steps that can be taken to increase the diversity of the councillor population. In Chapter 4, we examine some of the practical barriers to people standing for elections and how they can be overcome. Finally, in Chapter 5, we turn to the performance of councillors and consider the adequacy of the training they are given. We are conscious that the experience of being a councillor will vary from place to place and between different types of authority county, district, unitary, metropolitan and London borough and, while for the most part in this report we refer to councillors in general terms, we encourage readers to be mindful of these differences. 12 See p Ev w48 14 Ev Tony Travers declared the following interests: Remunerated employment at the London School of Economics (since 1987); Remunerated consultancy for organisations and institutions in the public, private and not-for-profit sectors; Member of commissions for public and private agencies (short-term and unremunerated); Speaker at conferences and seminars (some remunerated); Freelance writer for several newspapers and periodicals; Formerly member of the City Finance Commission, which undertook an inquiry to review, explore and set out recommendations for the future of city local government finance with the aim of producing a system that fosters growth, is self-sufficient, fair, transparent and responsive to the needs of effective city governance in England. ; the Commission reported in May 2011.

10 8 Councillors on the frontline 2 Localism and the role of councillors 9. In this chapter, we will consider how localism is impacting upon the position and job of councillors, and the extent to which councils and councillors are making the most of the opportunities offered by localism and other reforms. We also consider some of the issues raised in our evidence about the structures of local government and arrangements for elections. 10. The Office for Public Management, in written evidence, believed that localism created both opportunities for and threats to the role of councillors: Local communities are being invited to have a stronger voice in deciding what happens in their area. On the one hand, that could be seen to reduce the relevance of councillors, as individuals and community groups will be encouraged to have their say direct rather than channelled through an elected member. On the other hand, the fact that councillors are elected and therefore have both the mandate and the legitimacy that others don t, means it will be hugely important that they remain at the centre of conversations and decisions affecting their areas. 16 This reflects to some extent one of the conclusions of our report into Localism, where we found that the Government was sending out mixed messages about the role of local government in localism, with some measures giving councils new powers and roles, and others, such as Police and Crime Commissioners, school policy, and council tax referendums, apparently seeking to bypass them. 17 In this inquiry, we found further evidence of this inconsistency, which we comment on in this chapter and in Chapter 4. Councillors in the community 11. Our evidence made a strong case for councillors under localism playing an active and visible role in amongst their communities, rather than just sitting in the town or county hall. 18 Buckinghamshire County Council stated: The number of Councillors who are proactive locally is growing. These Councillors make the time to go out and about in their local communities learning about the communities they represent and the issues that they face. The most effective Councillors in their communities are those who understand the value in building good working relationships locally. These tend to be individuals who also recognise the need for change and actively campaign, leading where necessary to ensure improvements happen. 19 Cllr Peter Fleming, Chair of the Improvement Board at the Local Government Association (LGA), said it was important that when a constituent wished to raise an issue there is an 16 Ev w7. On councillors democratic mandate, see also Ev 176 [Leeds City Council and the Commission on the Future of Local Government] and Q 55 [Cllr Peter Fleming]. 17 Communities and Local Government Committee, Third Report of Session , Localism, HC 547, para See, for example, Qq 186 and 213 [Cllr Robert Gordon], Ev w39 [Cllr Richard Kemp]. 19 Ev w6

11 Councillors on the frontline 9 easy access to their local councillor, and their local councillor knows how to make things happen or at least point the person in the right direction. 20 Caroline Abrahams, Director of External Affairs at Age UK, considered that smart councillors recognise that you need to talk to people, like the older people living in the area [...] to find out what is going on in your patch, so that you can then represent them. 21 At our discussion forum, participants stressed the importance of councillors being visible in their communities, 22 and of them acting as role models for others A term frequently used to describe councillors role in their communities is community leadership, although some evidence suggests that this is a difficult concept to define. 24 Cllr Alycia James from Lancaster City Council said that many councillors confuse leadership with doing everything yourself, at first I too fell into this trap. We cannot take on the running of every single project in the area, we as leaders, need to help guide the community, help give them the tools and overall be facilitators. Sometimes you are needed just to get the ball rolling, an odd letter to this organisation or in order to help a project move along, to co-ordinate between the council and community groups. 25 Cllr Robert Gordon CBE, Leader of Hertfordshire County Council, also saw councillors playing a facilitation role, but did not like the term community leadership ; he said: I do not know even whether you would use the term leadership. It is brokerage; it is engagement; it is facilitation; it is entrepreneurial it is all that sort of stuff. 26 His authority had a vision of a new relationship between councillors and the people they serve: Councillors will be community activists, one among equals, (perhaps, even a first among equals) but helping and encouraging respective little societies and individuals within their area Another vision was offered by Leeds City Council, which had led the Commission on the Future of Local Government, which published its report in July This proposed, as its core idea, the notion of civic enterprise, which it described as a new leadership style for local government where councils become more enterprising, businesses and other partners become more civic, and citizens become more engaged. 28 Under this approach, there were crucial roles for councillors not only in being civic entrepreneurs but also in providing visible civic leadership to enable and support the work of others. 29 Cllr Lucinda Yeadon, Executive Member for Adult Social Care at Leeds City Council, told us that the 20 Q Q Annex, para Annex, para Ev 114 [Professor Colin Copus], Q 38 [Liz Richardson] 25 Ev Q Ev Commission on the Future of Local Government, July 2012, p 6. Available at 29 Commission on the Future of Local Government, July 2012, p 7

12 10 Councillors on the frontline role of local government would be just as important or probably more important in the future, but very different, and said that it was important to have councillors who could adapt to the change The Secretary of State, in written evidence, said that, through the localism agenda, the Government was significantly expanding the opportunities for local councillors to serve their communities and help local people take control [of] their lives and localities. 31 He cited a number of measures being put in place, including the introduction of neighbourhood planning, the right to build, the community right to challenge and the community right to bid. 32 We asked Brandon Lewis MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Department for Communities and Local Government, who gave oral evidence, whether councillors should have a role in facilitating provisions such as the Community Right to Challenge: Yes, is the short answer. [...] on a range of areas this being one of them it is the people and the authorities that grasp an opportunity and run with it [...] that will gain the most. There will be areas that will do this more, and I would love to see more and more councils making more and more people aware We have heard different descriptions of the role councillors should be playing in their community. Some witnesses have referred to community leadership. Others have said that councillors should be facilitators or civic entrepreneurs. It does not really matter how this role is described: individual councillors will adapt their approaches to what works locally. What matters more is that the Government does not accidentally undermine the authority of councillors, and that councillors are, in turn, visible in their communities, getting out and about, meeting their constituents and giving them the help and support they need. In doing so, they should be encouraging communities to make the most of all the opportunities available to them, including those offered by the Localism Act By being visible and active, councillors can also become role models for others in the community and encourage a wider range of people to take an interest in local government. Working with external organisations 16. Some considered that councillors had a role in working with other providers of public services. West Midlands Councils stated: Another important leadership role for councillors is to engage and influence the increasing diversity of public, third sector and private providers operating in their area. This can be a challenging task with, in many cases, limited direct or even indirect influence through the council but it can be a valuable and productive one Q Ev Ev Q Ev w2

13 Councillors on the frontline 11 Leeds City Council and the Commission on the Future of Local Government said that councillors should [...] act as door openers to services and other community actors, such as GPs, schools, businesses and third sector organisations. 35 In Sunderland, we visited a primary school where the head teacher described her close working relationship with the local councillors and how engagement had noticeably improved in recent years. She considered that an important part of the councillors role was to understand what was happening in their ward, and that working with schools helped them to develop this understanding. 17. In supporting their communities, councillors should be working closely with external organisations and providers of public services. By forging close relationships with GPs, schools, neighbourhood policing teams, voluntary organisations and local businesses, councillors can broaden their understanding of the key issues facing their community. They also have a role in bringing organisations together to share intelligence and provide a co-ordinated and effective response to local needs. Empowering councillors 18. Some witnesses suggested that, just as there was a need for Government to devolve power to local authorities, so councils had to devolve the power to councillors operating at the local level. Professor Colin Copus of De Montfort University said of community leadership that only so much can be achieved through soft political powers. 36 He argued that the community leadership role of the councillor within his or her ward / division needs to be clarified and supported with powers, budgets and by the council infra-structure if councillors are to be able to lead disparate communities Robert Howard, a political and community activist, who had previously served as a councillor, said that he was an advocate of mini-mayors [...] leading their community, working with their local community, and taking responsibility for services that relate to that area. He added: [...] Hazel Blears [then Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government], in 2007, gave councillors that power, providing local authorities let them exercise it, but of course they are not. Local care services in Nottingham would be far better run if they were run by the local community, but in fact what we saw where I live in Lenton was a Carelink service provided by local people lose out when the City Council decided it was easier to have a citywide contract. [...] Have your minimayors, have your local councillors running those kinds of services, and you can address that problem, because they can manage those budgets. [...] It is all doable, and the reason we do not do it is because of control. The people up there want to control everything; they are manage-freaks Ev Ev Ev Q 284

14 12 Councillors on the frontline Cllr Richard Kemp CBE, Director of the Liberal Democrats Winning with Localism operation, said that councils should be freeing up resources to ensure that councillors can be the local community champion or as I describe it become the cabinet member for their ward We heard from a number of local authorities who were finding ways to give councillors greater influence over the way local authority services were delivered. During our visit to Sunderland, we heard how councillors had been empowered through the City Council s Community Leadership Programme. Cllr Michael Mordey, Policy Member for City Services, told us that for him the best thing about the programme had been the introduction of area response teams. He explained how the teams worked: If you have a problem in your ward and are rung up by a resident, you pick up the phone, in my case [to call...] the response manager for the eastern area, and within hours the problem is dealt with, if not resolved. Therefore, in terms of putting councillors on the front line and assisting us in our duties to the public, one aspect of the community leadership programme is the team of area response managers, and I think that is very worthwhile. 40 The initial focus of this Responsive Local Services approach had been on street scene issues but it was being extended into other areas. 41 Sunderland City Council had also put in place arrangements to devolve decision making to areas within the city. Councillors served on area committees and boards that worked in partnership with voluntary sector and other public sector bodies. 42 In addition, they were assigned an account manager a council officer who would be a first point of contact [...] providing a range of capacity development, communications, opinion testing and support functions. 43 We found that the Community Leadership Programme had given a much greater role to councillors who were not members of the Cabinet. Cllr David Tate, the Council s Chair of Scrutiny, told us that backbench councillors had now become frontline councillors and that this change had made a big difference Leeds City Council had also established area committees. Cllr Yeadon said that while she considered these to have been effective, they were still a work in progress. 45 Hertfordshire County Council, through its vision of localism, had taken a different approach to devolution, opting to give councillors their own budgets. They were each allocated 100,000 a year: 10,000 through the Members Locality Budget Scheme, and 90,000 through the Highways Locality Budget Scheme. 46 NAVCA, which represents local support and development organisations, stated that its members report that where councillors have been allocated funds, they have been better able to respond to local 39 Ev w39 40 Q Ev 150, para Qq [Cllr Celia Gofton] 43 Ev 150, para Q Q Ev 159

15 Councillors on the frontline 13 concerns and to support local needs and projects, leading to better relations with their local communities. 47 A number of other councils also described initiatives that they were putting in place, or already had in place, to empower and devolve responsibility to their councillors It is incumbent upon councillors and councils to take full advantage of the opportunities offered by localism. We have heard from a number of local authorities who are responding positively by promoting and developing the role of councillors within their communities. We urge all councils to consider how best to provide support to their councillors and assist them to ensure they have an active role in their communities. Wherever possible, councils should be seeking to devolve power and resources to councillors at the local level, to enable them to fulfil this role. This devolution could take a number of forms: enabling councillors to become mini mayors at the ward or community level; delegating budgets; or establishing area committees with decisionmaking responsibilities. We have seen good examples of what can be achieved: the levers are in place, so councils should get on with the job of devolving power. The approaches they take will depend upon the characteristics of the area and the type of authority, but it is important that examples of good practice are collected and publicised. Councils and the Local Government Association should work together to ensure that good practice is shared and that authorities learn from each other. Influence over outsourced services 23. While Sunderland s responsive services model was undoubtedly successful, we were unsure how it would work if the services it covered were not delivered in house. In other authorities, many services are delivered under contract by external bodies. Cllr Gordon told us that Hertfordshire County Council was seeking to identify more decisions that can be made susceptible to local variation and local influence as its highways service had been. 49 We asked whether this would be more difficult to achieve where services were outsourced; he replied: Not if the contracts are appropriately written. We have all sorts of history about our highway contracts, which are the largest ones, but the front-line interrelation with officers, whether they are county council staff or outsource staff doesn t matter, provided the contract is written right and the expectation is right Increasingly, council services are being delivered by external providers. In these cases, it is important that the role of the councillor is not reduced. Councillors have to be able to influence the way services are delivered, and should not be prevented from doing so because their authority is locked into a long-term contract where there is no access for local politicians to intervene in relation to service quality. Councils should 47 Ev w82, para See, for example, Ev w6 [Buckinghamshire County Council], Ev w12 [Staffordshire County Council], Ev w25 [Wiltshire Council], Q 135 [Cllrs Judith Wallace and Jeff Reid]. 49 Q Q 243

16 14 Councillors on the frontline take care when drawing up contracts to ensure that the contracts allow councillors to shape service delivery and have regular contact with frontline staff. Guided and muscular localism 25. If the Government wants councils to embrace localism and to devolve power, it must itself set an example. In our 2011 report on Localism, we expressed concern about the Secretary of State s use of the term guided localism, and argued that central government could not have it both ways on the one hand giving local authorities the freedom to make their own choices, and on the other maintaining that only one of those choices is the sensible one. 51 More recently, Mr Pickles introduced the concept of muscular localism, in reference to proposals to allow planning applications to be made directly to the Secretary of State if a local planning authority was deemed to be underperforming. 52 We remain concerned about the Government s mixed messages on localism. The Secretary of State s use of terms such as guided localism and now muscular localism suggests an inability to let go of the reins and embrace the concept fully. This can be frustrating and confusing for councillors and councils wishing to make the most of localism. We once again urge the Government to rein in its interventionist instincts, and to commit to giving councils real freedom to make important decisions about issues affecting their areas. Centrally directed localism is a contradiction in terms. Structures and elections 26. In this section we consider what our evidence said about the structures within local government, and the arrangements for elections. We examine whether they have any implications for the role of the councillor. Neighbourhood councils 27. Localism has placed a renewed focus upon the role of parish and town councils. The think tank Localis said: By reinvigorating democratic involvement at the most local level, parish councils and neighbourhood groups will take charge of their locality, and newly granted powers will help them take up direct responsibility for their neighbourhood. 53 Evidence from local government suggested that collaboration with parish and town councils was an important part of a councillor s role: a number of authorities had built consultation and liaison with local councils into their localist working arrangements. 54 West Midlands Councils referred in particular to councillors collaborating closely with town and parish councils on the development of Neighbourhood Plans Communities and Local Government Committee, Third Report of Session , Localism, HC 547, para HC Deb, 6 September 2012, col Ev w30 54 Ev w5 [Buckinghamshire County Council]; Ev 157 [Hertfordshire County Council]; Ev w12 [Staffordshire County Council]; Ev w25 [Wiltshire Council]. 55 Ev w4-5

17 Councillors on the frontline Paul Wheeler, Director of the Political Skills Forum, suggested that a new range of neighbourhood councils (incorporating existing town and parish councils) could become the building blocks of local democracy and help to create more pathways to stand for elected office. 56 He said that he supported the expansion of parish and town councils into urban areas: Westminster [in Queen s Park] has started [to establish a neighbourhood council]. I think it could be a really good training ground, but it could also be something in itself. Brent and all these others could really do with a much more local representative structure and people could dip in. [...] That could revolutionise local politics, but you would have to do it over what are very, very vested interests at the moment. 57 On 31 October 2012, the Government launched a discussion paper, Making it easier to set up new town and parish councils. This included three options to make the creation of parish and town councils easier: amending existing guidance ; changing the law (including doing so after amending guidance) ; and making it easier for neighbourhood forums to start the process for creating a new parish council. 58 On this final option, the consultation states: the neighbourhood planning process should generate community interest and engagement in the idea of shaping and improving the neighbourhood. That may mean that it can also be a good starting point for considering the creation of a town or parish council By collaborating with parish and town councillors on issues such as neighbourhood planning, councillors on principal authorities can ensure that their communities maximise the benefits offered by localism. Moreover, being a parish and town councillor could for some people act as a pathway to service on a principal authority, giving them the opportunity to develop the necessary skills. We support the development of parish and town councils in areas that are currently unparished where communities wish to see them created, and welcome the Government s commitment to make it easier for communities to establish local councils. Unitary authorities 30. We took some evidence about how making changes to the structure of local government could help promote engagement between communities and their councillors. Dame Jane Roberts, former Chair of the Councillors Commission, said: Unitary authorities make a whole heap of sense because there is one authority. People have talked about [how] three different tiers of government might be 56 Ev Q DCLG, Making it easier to set up new town and parish councils: discussion paper, October In areas where there is not a town or parish council, neighbourhood planning can be carried out by anyone who wants to set up or join a group which is designated as a neighbourhood forum by the local authority. 59 DCLG, Making it easier to set up new town and parish councils: discussion paper, October 2012, para 33

18 16 Councillors on the frontline responsible for one roundabout. It is bonkers, and then we expect people to understand and engage. 60 Witnesses from local government acknowledged that local government could be more complex in multi-tier areas. Buckinghamshire County Council, for example, stated: The two-tier arrangement of local government brings with it specific challenges in relation to Councillors working in their local communities. From the electorate s perspective there is often confusion around the County and District Council remits and therefore which Councillor to contact. 61 Cllr Simon Killane, a councillor on Wiltshire Council, which had become a unitary authority in 2009 (replacing a county and four district councils), 62 said: I think a unitary in itself is a far better idea than the tiered system, but you have to have a root and branch. You have to make sure that you can delegate the power down from the unitary, like in a military situation where each level understands what their role is and is empowered to do what they need to do. 63 Wiltshire Council s submission gave details of the steps it was taking to put real power and money in the hands of local communities The former Deputy Prime Minster Lord Heseltine, in a recent governmentcommissioned report, No stone unturned in pursuit of growth, recommended that All two-tier English local authorities outside London should pursue a path towards unitary status. The Government should encourage this and work with authorities to clarify the process and enable it to happen Brandon Lewis, the Minister, when asked about the structure of local government, replied: It can be a complicated system. We have got parishes that are bigger than some districts. But, to my mind, that is kind of the beauty of it, because what has happened over the years it is still happening is those local communities is that those local areas and councils, at whatever level, have evolved and developed to be what their community is best served by. It will continue to evolve that way. That is one of the beauties of our system it can move and evolve, rather than being forced and directed Q Ev w6 62 Local Better Regulation Office, New Unitaries Case Study: Wiltshire Council, May Available at: 63 Q Ev w25 65 Lord Heseltine, No stone unturned in pursuit of growth, p Q 436

19 Councillors on the frontline 17 The Secretary of State subsequently confirmed that he did not plan to implement Lord Heseltine s proposals for unitary local government. 67 Election arrangements 33. A further recommendation in No stone unturned in pursuit of growth was that local authority council members should be elected using the same electoral cycle across England where the whole council is elected at the same time every four years. 68 Lord Heseltine argued that the cycles whereby a proportion of the leadership team change on an annual basis make anything but short term decision making difficult. 69 A similar recommendation was made by the Councillors Commission, which proposed that fouryearly all-out elections should become the norm, although, in contrast to Lord Heseltine s across England proposal, it suggested that they take place on well publicised regional election days. 70 Dame Jane Roberts explained: Some places do all-out elections; some do it in thirds. You never know quite who you are voting for, where and how. Wouldn t it make more sense to have a local election day? Do it by region, not on a super Tuesday as in the States. Have local elections in that region. You would have a real razzmatazz about it. In some places on local election day, there is nothing there. 71 Professor Michael Thrasher, Professor of Politics at Plymouth University, said that there was strong evidence that whole council elections do encourage voter turnout. 72 Ward composition 34. A further structural issue raised with the Committee concerned the respective merits of single and multi-member wards. Robert Howard considered that All councillors should represent single member wards because this will strengthen their role and position within the community or the cluster of communities / neighbourhoods which they represent. As a result, they are likely to become better known to more of their electorate and others whom they serve. Voters will, I believe, be more likely to engage in the political process by voting and attending meetings etc when they see that their councillor actually has the power to do things and can make decisions quickly. 73 Dame Jane Roberts took the opposite view. She argued that having multi-member wards meant that you can have a spread of people of different backgrounds, genders and skills. [...] 67 HC Deb, 12 November 2012, col 7 68 No stone unturned, p As above 70 Representing the future, p Q Q Ev 105, para 2.4

20 18 Councillors on the frontline For all sorts of reasons, it is much more sensible to have a multi-member ward. For example, I had a baby when I was a councillor. It meant it was possible for one of my co-ward councillors to do surgeries for a month, so I did not have to do it. 74 When asked about single and multi-member wards, the Minister, Brandon Lewis, said: I think that it is for those local authorities to take a view on what is right for them they can do that. I know there are some local authorities that are looking at whether they want to change their set-up from three to two or to one, as it were and that is a matter for them to work through with the boundary commission. 75 Structures and elections: conclusion 35. There may or may not be benefits for democratic engagement from councils moving to unitary status, altering their election arrangements or changing the number of councillors representing each ward. These are, however, issues that should be considered locally in consultation with communities according to the characteristics and needs of particular areas. We recommend that councils from time-to-time give formal consideration to their electoral arrangements, ward composition, and, in collaboration with other authorities in their areas, their structures. If, following such consideration they are minded to make a change, they may wish to request that the Secretary of State or the Local Government Boundary Commission for England initiate a review or, if within their powers, make the changes to the arrangements themselves. 74 Q Q 433

21 Councillors on the frontline 19 3 Representation and local democracy 36. If councillors are to play a much more active role in supporting and representing their communities, it is important to have councillors to whom the community can relate. The average age of a councillor in England is 60, 96% of councillors are white and only 31% are female. 76 Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield of De Montfort University supplied us with the results of a survey of councillors from 16 countries across Europe. This survey found that the UK had the oldest councillors of the countries surveyed, and was in a league of its own when it came to the percentage of councillors who are retired: 43.3% in the UK compared to 30.2% in France, the second highest country, and 3.5% in Spain, the country with the smallest percentage of councillors who are retired. 77 With regard to the balance between male and female councillors, the survey found that the UK was neither at the top or the bottom of the distribution Witnesses generally considered that it was important for the membership of local authorities to reflect as closely as possible the demographic make-up of the communities they represented. Dame Jane Roberts, the former Chair of the Councillors Commission, stated: Unbalanced representation in councils compounds a sense that we are governed by a separate political class who look and talk very differently from ordinary people, that in turn distances people from an understanding of the political process and its importance, and can feed a destructive cynicism in politics. 79 While such sentiments were echoed by a number of witnesses, others were less concerned. 80 The District Councils Network said that diversity is important, but not as important as having good, committed councillors willing to work hard to make a difference to their neighbourhood, 81 while Professor Copus warned that Arguments for microcosmic representation appear to assume that only those who are from certain communities can undertake the task of representing them. Thus, the role of the councillor is not to represent the interests of the whole community, but the section of it from which the representative hails. That approach has serious implications for community cohesion as it displays a far more exclusive view of representation than has hitherto been the case. Indeed, a dangerous sectarianism could enter council chambers and party group meetings if diversity of recruitment is seen as an end in itself. [...] councillor diversity is [a] complex question which can 76 See para Ev 121. Professor Copus and Dr Wingfield state: A note of caution must be added however, when reporting data from low response rate surveys; only new surveys and a larger response rate could confirm or refute the patterns that emerged from this survey. 78 Ev Ev 145, para 9.1. See also Ev w83, para 4.1 [NAVCA]. 80 See, for example, Qq [Cllr Jeff Reid]. 81 Ev w23

22 20 Councillors on the frontline only be answered suitably by a careful consideration [of] what it is that the councillor as a representative is expected to represent While much of the evidence on candidates focused on how a more diverse pool could be recruited, we also heard that there were places where finding any candidates could be difficult. Geoff Pryke, Delegated Nominating Officer for Wearside Liberal Democrats, which following the 2012 local elections no longer had any councillors on Sunderland City Council, 83 told us that his local party s selection process was very simple: it is called coercion. 84 Cllr Robert Knowles, Leader of Waverley Borough Council, where the Conservative Party held all but one of the seats on the council, 85 reflected: I am sitting here very jealously, because I hear about all these selections. We run round a few days before the election trying to fill the gaps, and not only my party, because at the last election, out of 57, 19 were returned unopposed, including an 18- year-old woman in the no-hope seat for us, but unopposed We consider it a matter of concern that the composition of many councils does not reflect that of the communities they serve. Clearly, we should not be looking for absolute reflectiveness (which would be impossible to achieve). We also accept that councillors do not necessarily have to come from a particular section of society to represent that section effectively. Nevertheless, healthy democracy depends upon different sections of society feeling a connection to those who represent them. It is, therefore, important to increase, for example, the numbers of women, younger people and black and minority ethnic people serving on local authorities, so that the membership of councils is better aligned to the make-up of the local populations they serve. Evidence presented to us suggested that there are areas where it can be difficult to find any candidates at all, and in these places the scale of the challenge will be all the greater. We will now consider what steps can be taken to increase the diversity of the councillor population. The role of political parties 40. Evidence from the Elections Centre at Plymouth University states that the underrepresentation of women, younger people and Black, Asian and other minority ethnic groups is as prevalent amongst candidates as it is amongst councillors. 87 This suggests to us that steps to promote the representativeness of councillors should be focused in the first instance upon ensuring there is a more diverse selection of candidates on the ballot paper. We heard that, following the 2012 English local elections, approximately 93% of all councillors were from one of the three main political parties. 88 Therefore, these parties, 82 Ev 116, section 4 83 Q Q election results, 86 Q Ev Ev 117 [Professor Colin Copus]

23 Councillors on the frontline 21 through the candidates they select, have significant influence over the composition of councils. 41. The national representatives of the three main political parties described the initiatives they had put in place to broaden the pool of candidates. Steve Hitchins, who leads the Liberal Democrats Be a Councillor programme, said that this programme had held 120 events around the country over the past six years. It was designed to make people look outside the party membership, because we think that is too restrictive. 89 Robert Neill MP, the Conservative Party s Vice Chairman, Local Government, said that his party was doing more work to attract councillors from various ethnic minority communities. He said that the party was working on a broader issue about making sure we get support more deeply in ethnic minority communities in the UK as a piece, which he hoped would lead to an influence on our councillor numbers, but you have got to do it that way around rather than the other way around. 90 A local example of this work was given by Alan Wright, the Chairman of City of Sunderland Conservatives, who described his association s work to engage with minority ethnic communities, including meetings with officials from the local Bangladeshi Community Centre. 91 Olly Buston, the Labour Party s Executive Director of Members and Supporters, described the party s Future Candidates Programme which was specifically designed to reach out to the widest possible group of people. He said that one hundred per cent. of the people on that scheme are not on those traditional paths to becoming a councillor At our discussion forum, however, a number of participants suggested that political parties preferred candidates with a long history of party activism. 93 In Sunderland, Cllr Tom Wright, who has been closely involved in the selection of Labour Party candidates and has led work to bring forward candidates from under-represented groups, told us, quite reasonably, that he liked candidates to have been in the party a couple of years and to have at least campaigned and delivered leaflets at one election. He added that this was his personal view, not Labour Party policy Some witnesses also suggested that the way local parties selected their candidates contributed to councils being unrepresentative. The Centre for Women and Democracy expressed a similar view, stating that some members of all political parties mistakenly believe that women are an electoral liability, and select candidates accordingly. 95 Liz Richardson from the University of Manchester pointed to research about candidates for election to national political institutions, which she said indicated that the parties were trying to second-guess what voters will stand. 96 She explained: 89 Q Q Q Q Annex, para Q 173. Olly Buston said that When people stand as Labour candidates, the rule is that they should have been a member of the party for a year, although there is scope to vary that locally in situations where there is a shortage of people coming forward, Q Ev 166, para Qq 28 9

24 22 Councillors on the frontline Where there are, for example, large minority ethnic populations parties are happier to put in minority ethnic candidates because they see that as a no brainer, but diversity candidates, if you want to call them that, are more likely to get no hope seats than winnable seats in other situations, because parties think that the electorate will not stand for someone who looks different Our evidence also highlighted a lack of transparency in selection processes. Paul Wheeler, Director of the Political Skills Forum, said that where there was a transparent and understandable selection process parties were able to attract a more diverse group of candidates. However, he considered that these transparent processes were largely confined to London Boroughs and other metropolitan areas and not widely taken up nationally and across parties The parties said that they were taking steps to address these issues. Steve Hitchins said that a natural trait for any human being going into a room of complete strangers is to first approach someone who looks remarkably like them [...] Three white, middle-aged lawyers tend to select white, middle aged lawyers. He said that it was necessary to train people to widen their horizons and that such training was now part of the process wherever we have a selection panel. 99 Olly Buston said that through reforms to the Labour Party, local campaign forums were being established and were specifically mandated with coming up with a recruitment strategy that pulls in the widest possible range of candidates. 100 Robert Neill said that it was perhaps more the case in the past that parties were unwilling to be bold ; the Conservative Party now had a standardised selection procedure and we have party professionals in the field who can make sure that that is properly policed Political parties form the backbone of our democratic system. If we are to see a significant increase in the proportion of councillors from currently under-represented groups, the three main parties together have an important (and probably the most important) role to play. We were pleased to see that the national parties were taking action to increase the number of candidates from under-represented groups and to encourage a broader pool of people to put themselves forward. We were also encouraged to hear that the parties had in place steps to address concerns raised with us about excessive caution and a lack of transparency in selection processes. However, while there are doubtless many examples of good practice, we did not see convincing evidence that party policies were being universally applied by local parties on the ground. The political parties must ensure that there are mechanisms in place to monitor the implementation of their national policies in all parts of the country, and that results are achieved. 97 Q Ev Q As above 101 Q 380

25 Councillors on the frontline 23 Looking beyond political parties 47. We heard that in seeking to broaden the diversity of candidates, political parties had to look beyond their current membership. It was suggested that the voluntary and community sector could be a good hunting ground. 102 Cllr Lucinda Yeadon, Executive Member for Adult Social Care on Leeds City Council, who herself had a voluntary sector background, told us that the sector was an excellent place to find people who are community-minded, community-spirited, and probably have a lot of the same values and ethos [...] that we should be encouraging. 103 In Sunderland, we heard from Cllr Dianne Snowdon, who had been a school governor and had fought the council to prevent the closure of the school. She said: Once I got confidence in my role as school governor I got more politically aware and joined the Labour party late in life. I got involved and did eight years of grass-roots campaigning, and then went on to become a councillor Cllr Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Leader of the Opposition on Hertfordshire County Council, said that there were some barriers to getting people from the voluntary sector to stand: firstly, they do not want to be associated with one political party or another, or secondly, they believe they can get better things or more for their community or their community group by being outside of the political arena. 105 The national political party representatives all told us that they were keen to recruit candidates from the voluntary sector. 106 Parties could also look for potential candidates amongst the business community: at our discussion forum, it was observed that running a council had many similarities to running a business. 107 Perceptions of party politics 49. Our evidence suggested that some people were put off by their perceptions of party politics. At the discussion forum, we were told that the atmosphere at party meetings could discourage people from involvement with a political party. 108 The parenting website, Netmums, conducted a survey of its members. When asked why they were not interested in becoming a councillor, respondents variously referred to the mudslinging involved, the bickering and posturing between parties and their belief that politics was male dominated. 109 In written evidence, Leslie Horne, who had thought about standing for 102 Q 233 [Cllr Stewart Golton], Q 234 [Cllr Lucinda Yeadon] 103 Q Q Q Q Annex, para 51. See also Ev w68 [Cllr Lynda Jones]. 108 Annex, para Ev w56 8

26 24 Councillors on the frontline election, said that if you join one of the main political parties [...] freedom [of speech] is taken away as you have to comply with the [party s] ideas even if you do not agree Being a councillor is not for everyone and some people will choose to serve their communities in other ways. Nevertheless, the values and skills involved in working in the voluntary sector or running a business will often reflect many of those required for service as a councillor. The political parties should initiate discussions with organisations representing the voluntary sector and business community to explore how they can work together to promote opportunities to stand for election. In addition, the parties should take steps to make themselves more open, for instance by creating a more welcoming atmosphere at meetings, so that people are not deterred by negative and possibly inaccurate perceptions of what being a party member entails. Open primaries 51. One witness, Timothy J Oates, called for the political process to be opened up, stating that there should be open primaries at every level with no artificial restrictions or meetings of the 'great and the good' behind closed doors, selecting candidates. 111 The Coalition Programme for Government commits the Government to funding 200 all-postal primaries over the current Parliament, aimed at parliamentary seats that have not changed hands for many years. 112 Robert Neill, the Conservative Party s Vice Chairman, Local Government, said that he had no objection to the principle of open primaries, and that while the party would have to look at the practicality he did not rule out the idea. 113 Positive action 52. The Centre for Women and Democracy supported positive action as a means of increasing the number of female councillors. It pointed to the result of the Labour Party s positive action policy, noting that in 2003 only 23% of Labour s candidates were women, whereas in 2012 this figure had risen to 41%. By contrast, it said that the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties have both rejected positive action for the time being at least, and their proportion of women candidates has remained more or less unchanged over the same period Amongst the participants at our discussion forum, there were some strong supporters of positive action, who argued it was a necessity in some communities to stop councils being predominately male. Other participants, however, argued that it was anti-democratic and that it undermined councillors to be selected on the basis of the gender, age or ethnicity, rather than their merits Ev w Ev w The Coalition: Our Programme for Government, p Q Ev 168, para See also Q 292 [Nan Sloane] and Ev 165, ES7, Ev 166, para 2.3 and Ev 167, para Annex, paras 37 38

27 Councillors on the frontline Steve Hitchins said that he was personally in favour of positive action, but that it had been rejected on at least three occasions by the Liberal Democrat party conference. 116 He added that the Liberal Democrats did have quotas on shortlists, so although that is not positive action in candidates, it is on shortlists. 117 Robert Neill said that it was the Conservative Party s belief that you want the best people coming forward, regardless of gender or ethnicity. I do think that is a very important principle and we should not restrict the choice of the selectorate in that way [through positive action]. 118 He said, however, that the party did have quotas in relation to parliamentary shortlists There are a number of approaches the political parties could take to increasing the diversity of the candidates they select. We are not advocating particular approaches but rather that parties should actively consider the options available. These options could include the use of open primaries, and the introduction of positive action policies. Independent councillors 56. Joining a political party is not the only route to becoming a councillor and there is a case for encouraging more people to stand as independents. As Professor Copus pointed out, the most under-represented group of people in local government and among councillors are those that are not members of the three main political parties. 120 We heard from independent councillors who had stood for election after campaigning on particular local issues. Cllr Colin Wakefield, Leader of the Independent Group on Sunderland City Council, had led a group of local residents opposed to a landfill site. He said: In many local issues independent is quite often the right way to go. There is not a political dimension if you need a zebra crossing or something like that; there is or is not a need. That was how I got involved. 121 Cllr Marianne Overton, an independent councillor on Lincolnshire County and North Kesteven District Councils, had stood for election because the community was concerned about the sitting councillor s lack of support for a bypass. 122 She considered that more could be done to encourage people to stand as independents: One way is to make sure that people do understand what a councillor can do and what difference they can make. If there are some good examples, they should be publicised in the press or in newsletters or on Facebook; anywhere. [...] If there are barriers like unfair press coverage, which we sometimes see, particularly during election time, that does make it very difficult. Many of the independents have 116 Q As above 118 As above 119 Q Ev Q Q 304

28 26 Councillors on the frontline networks to try to encourage others to come forward, and even to do some training prior to standing as well [...] It is really just about making sure that there is an open door and trying to provide a level playing field. 123 The role of local government: promoting local democracy 57. While it was argued that the political parties had the greatest role to play in bringing forward more diverse candidates, witnesses also considered there was a role, albeit a less direct one, for local authorities. Liz Richardson stated: one area for development is the role of local authorities in recruiting potential candidates. There is already a high level of activity by councils to support local democracy [...] In recent years, there have also been tentative moves towards active marketing of becoming a councillor by councils, although these have suffered from a reluctance to talk about the roles for political parties. Despite all of this, there are still strong underlying objections by officers in authorities to intervening in recruitment which hinder more extensive promotional work A number of witnesses considered that councils focus should be upon the promotion of local democracy. The first principle established by the Councillors Commission was that local authorities are key to promoting local democratic engagement. 125 Dame Jane Roberts explained in written evidence that the Commission was concerned about the lack of understanding about local government and what councillors do, let alone about how to become a councillor. 126 Evidence from Leeds City Council and the Commission on the Future of Local Government raised the image of local government and said that many examples and stories of excellent public service need to be told, including by using new forms of more personalised and direct communications, to restore public faith in local government and democracy. 127 Desmond Jaddoo, who works with communities in Birmingham, expressed a similar point saying that during the recent mayoral campaign various issues concerning the engagement, voter apathy, lack of understanding, image, and distancing between the people and Local Government were clearly highlighted. 128 Cllr Rowan Draper, from Stafford Borough Council, referred to the need for citizenship education, not only in schools, but perhaps county councils and borough councils should be doing that as part of their offer to residents. 129 Duty to promote democracy 59. The Councillors Commission s concerns about a lack of understanding of local government led it to recommend that local authorities be charged with a statutory duty to 123 Q Ev Representing the Future, p Ev Ev Ev w Q 307

29 Councillors on the frontline 27 facilitate local democratic engagement. 130 Such a duty was provided for in the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009; 131 however, the previous Government chose not to implement the provision immediately, 132 and it was subsequently repealed in the Localism Act Brandon Lewis, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, told us that the decision to repeal the duty comes back to the line between the Government directing local government about what to do. If we are going to have localism, let local authorities develop what they think is right for their area and then promote it. Good local authorities and good councils would want to do that. 134 Cllr Robert Gordon, Leader of Hertfordshire County Council, said that he was very happy not to be under a duty and to exercise our own discretion locally. 135 Targeting under-represented groups 60. On the steps councils take to promote local democracy, the Association of Democratic Services Officers said that publicity was often targeted in particular at the underrepresented sections of the community to encourage members of those communities to think about standing for public office and that youth parliaments and school councils were used as a way to engage young people. 136 Participants at our discussion forum also referred to the benefits of youth councils and similar forums, and considered social media to be another effective channel for reaching out to young people. 137 Earlier in this report, we established that active and visible councillors could become role models for others in the community, encouraging them to take an interest in local government Local authorities should be actively promoting democratic engagement and explaining to the public what the role of councillor entails. The repeal of the Duty to Promote Democracy should be a spur to show that councils can develop and implement their own approaches to the promotion of local democracy, without the need for central government direction. We understand that local government is currently facing significant budgetary constraints. Nevertheless, we encourage all councils to put in place strategies for democratic engagement, in accordance with their local circumstances. These strategies should include a focus on engagement with underrepresented and hard-to-reach groups. In particular, councils should be taking steps to promote the active involvement of young people. 130 Representing the Future, p Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, Part 1, chapter HC Deb, 16 December 2009, col 1288W [Rt Hon Rosie Winterton MP] 133 Localism Act 2011, section Q Q Ev w77, para 6.3. See also Ev w23 [District Councils Network]. 137 Annex, paras See para 15.

30 28 Councillors on the frontline Be a Councillor programme 62. The Local Government Association (LGA), in its written evidence, described the Be a Councillor programme that it had initiated: Only by encouraging the brightest stars to stand for election can we ensure that councils are able to do the best for their communities. [...] The LGA is encouraging everyone to play their part in talent spotting actively looking out for committed, enthusiastic people who could make great councillors. We have been working with councillors, those involved in the formal selection process, and also active party members keen to initiate change. They all have an important role to play. There has been a considerable amount of work with the political parties to find ways to encourage more people from a range of backgrounds to stand to be councillors in ways that reflect the parties values and traditions. To raise public awareness the LGA has produced a free toolkit of materials for councils to use, or edit to fit their local campaigns. Ultimately, it is the electorate that decides who becomes a councillor, but we can all help to raise the quality of the candidates they choose from. 139 The three main political parties are all engaged in the work of the Be a Councillor programme Paul Wheeler expressed support for the work of Be a Councillor, 141 and proposed the creation of a Local Democracy Advocacy Organisation. He said that such an organisation could encourage more people to consider standing for election as elected representatives at all levels and could take over and expand the current LGA Be a Councillor Programme. 142 He explained that there were already equivalent bodies at the national level, such as Industry and Parliament Trust which is supported by a large number of commercial organizations to encourage those with business experience to stand as MPs [...] Equally the Hansard Society has a mission to promote parliamentary democracy and the work of Parliament. On an international level the Westminster Foundation encourages best practice and innovation amongst political parties in emerging democracies. A Local Democracy Foundation could replicate the beneficial features of all these organizations for the specific promotion of local democracy in England. It could be funded from existing funds designated for leadership improvement and capacity building in local government The Local Government Association (LGA) deserves credit for its work on the Be a Councillor programme, which is playing an important role in encouraging a wider 139 Ev 156, section Qq [Steve Hitchins, Olly Buston and Robert Neill MP] 141 Q Ev Ev 172

31 Councillors on the frontline 29 group of people to stand at local elections. We welcome the political parties engagement in the programme. We note the suggestion for the creation of a Local Democracy Advocacy Organisation that could take over and expand the programme. While there is merit in this idea, we are wary of recommending the setting up of a new organisation, which could be expensive and time consuming. We would, however, encourage the LGA to expand the Be a Councillor programme, under its established branding, to enable it to play a wider role in the promotion of local democracy. The expanded Be a Councillor programme could take steps to share good practice from councils approaches to promoting democratic engagement. Steps to popularise the idea of becoming a councillor should be actively considered.

32 30 Councillors on the frontline 4 Barriers to becoming and remaining a councillor 65. Furthering the promotion of local democracy, doing more to market the role of councillor, and making changes to the way candidates are selected could all help to make councillors more representative of the communities they serve, but there may also be more practical reasons for people choosing not to stand. In this chapter, we will look at the barriers to becoming a councillor, and also why some councillors, having been elected, choose not to seek a second term. As Cllr Peter Fleming, Chair of the Local Government Association s Improvement Board, suggested, we really need to concentrate on [...] not just be a councillor but stay a councillor. 144 Time commitment 66. A number of witnesses raised concerns about the time commitment involved in being a councillor. Cllr Robert Knowles, Leader of Waverley Borough Council, said that placed a particularly acute demand upon councillors time: A major demand on members time is . It is easy to circulate many s to a large list of councillors, even 10 years ago this pressure was not there. It is easy to ping an , when writing and posting a letter took mature thought and action. Members have no secretarial support and can spend many hours each day on traffic. 145 Other councillors agreed that it was very hard to find the time, particularly for those in full time work. 146 Cllr Simon Killane, from Wiltshire Council, referred to being stuck up in my attic at three o clock in the morning dealing with a production line of hundreds of s, trying to cope with these documents and stuff that comes at short notice, knowing that the officers are paid sometimes very large salaries, have pensions, have security, while I am doing it on a shoestring budget. 147 In Sunderland, Cllr David Tate, when asked how the role of councillor had changed since he had first been elected in 1979, said that it was now massively more involved The time commitment made it particularly hard for people from certain groups to serve as councillors. Nan Sloane, Director of the Centre for Women and Democracy, described how it was especially hard for women to find the time: I think most women find, as indeed Margaret Thatcher found and said, that you can do two things at once but not three: you can have a job and be a councillor; you can 144 Q Ev See, for example, Annex, para 41 and Ev [Cllr Alycia James]. 147 Q Q 125. See also Ev w81, para 2.3 [NAVCA].

33 Councillors on the frontline 31 have a job and a family or be responsible for a family; you can be a councillor and be responsible for a family; but it is extraordinarily difficult to do all three at the same time. 149 At our discussion forum, we heard that younger people and those in their thirties struggled to find the time to combine being a councillor with their work, study or family commitments. Some councillors stood down at the end of their twenties to focus upon their career or family, and consequently there were often few councillors in their thirties or early forties. 150 The survey conducted by Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield explored why councillors planning to leave the council had decided to step down. Professor Copus and Dr Wingfield stated: What the responses indicate is that councillors intending to leave the council appear to be doing so to spend more time with their families (or their jobs). In other words, council duties are a time consuming set of responsibilities and maybe too demanding for some, given that the office is not full-time and paid in the same way as a salaried occupation. Although, leaving the council to concentrate on a professional occupation is not such a great motivator, so what we are seeing here is a reaction to the time demands of council work Robert Howard, a political and community activist who had previously served as a councillor, called for councillors to be given a paid assistant: Ideally, every councillor should be able to appoint a part-time remunerated 'Councillor's Assistant' to assist them with casework, research and to act as clerk to their ward forum(s) in the absence of an existing parish or town council. This person would be akin to a town council manager or parish clerk. In other words, nonpolitical and able to serve successive councillors while, in the process, building up a bank of local ward knowledge of invaluable benefit not just to the ward councillor, but to the community as a whole. This person would be paid the same as the ward councillor. 152 Cllr Alycia James, from Lancaster City Council, said that she would not want a full caseworker but would like: Perhaps being able to sometimes say I suppose it is a caseworker to an extent This is what I want; a response doing to the person, but to still be in complete control. I do not want to lose that input with the residents, but there are some, very routine things that come up that could almost be dealt with by somebody else Brandon Lewis, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, considered it a matter for local authorities whether or not to give councillors a caseworker. He said: 149 Q Annex, para Ev Ev 107, para Qq 334 5

34 32 Councillors on the frontline If they feel that is something that is right for them and they can afford to do it, it is a judgment call for the local authority, but it sounds like a very expensive route to go down to me We found the Minister s response disappointing. The role of councillor is becoming increasingly demanding, with casework and creating particular pressures. Changes to the role of councillor are likely to create further demands on councillors time. More than ever, they need additional support to help them with their workload. Councils should consider assigning to each councillor an officer who can assist them in managing their casework. In smaller authorities, this officer may be shared between a number of councillors. Employers 71. Another aspect of the time commitment required of councillors is the extent to which employers support councillors with time off work to fulfil their duties. We heard that some employers, particularly large corporations, were good at giving their staff support but that it was not so easy for smaller businesses. 155 At the discussion forum, we heard that some employers were reluctant to employ councillors and that some employment agencies would not put councillors on their books. One participant was unemployed and reported a detrimental effect on employment prospects through being a councillor. 156 Cllr James described to us advice from the Job Centre where she was told: Take off that; take off that; Deputy Leader, no; Vice Chair, no. Make it look like you are not really doing anything in the council. Make it look like you have lots of time for them and nothing for the council The Councillors Commission proposed the establishment of a local government administered scheme to compensate small businesses. 158 Some participants at the discussion forum also expressed support for a compensation scheme, but it was not clear whether this would necessarily help small businesses. Generally these companies needed their employees time. It was unlikely they would be able to afford to hire replacement staff even with the money reimbursed Brandon Lewis said that he had not looked at the possibility of a compensation scheme, and what he would much rather councils do, which would be far more cost-effective and time-effective, is look at how they can run their meetings so that councillors involved in that council can be part of it. 160 We agree that, whenever possible, councils should arrange meetings at times that best suit their councillors. But this is not always straightforward: while evening meetings are usually more convenient for councillors in employment, other 154 Q Ev 172 and Q 274 [Paul Wheeler] 156 Annex, para Q Representing the Future, p Annex, para Q 424. For an example of a council s approach, see Ev w70 [Cllr Lynda Jones].

35 Councillors on the frontline 33 councillors, especially those with young families, find it easier to attend meetings during the day. 161 It might be necessary to alternate meetings between different times of the day. 74. Paul Wheeler, Director of the Political Skills Forum, referred to the need to see being a councillor as a form of public service. He recalled that when the Local Government Association had sponsored a Good Employer Award in the past there were a lot of firms, particularly in the north of England, who said, Having a councillor is a sign of civic pride, a bit like having a brass band, and we support that. I think it was the Redcar Mining Company: when one of their employees became the mayor, they gave him a year off on full pay, saying, This is a tremendous tribute to us and the town The Government is currently considering ways in which employers can be encouraged to support military reservists. The Secretary of State for Defence, Rt Hon Philip Hammond MP, when launching a Green Paper on the future of the reserve forces, Future Reserves 2020: Delivering the Nation s Security Together, said that he looked forward to exploring further with businesses of all sizes how we could better recognise the support they give to our armed forces, perhaps through a kitemark-style national recognition scheme for reserve-friendly employers, or possibly through the use of targeted financial incentives for smaller employers. 163 While there are differences between releasing staff for a period of military service and giving them more frequent time off to perform their duties as a councillor, the principles supporting employees to provide a public service are similar. The Ministry of Defence is giving serious consideration to the ways in which employers can be encouraged to support military reservists. The Department for Communities and Local Government should conduct a similar review. We recommend that the Government consult on how employers can be encouraged to provide support to their staff who serve as councillors. Options that might be considered include a kitemark-style recognition scheme and the introduction of a financial incentive scheme. Remuneration 76. We heard that a further barrier to people becoming and remaining councillors was the level of remuneration available. 164 A number of witnesses emphasised that people did not become councillors for the money, 165 but there were concerns that people were deterred because they did not consider the allowance to provide sufficient compensation for their time. Cllr Robert Gordon, Leader of Hertfordshire County Council, for instance, told us that 161 See, for example, Q 240 [Cllr Robert Gordon]. 162 Q HC Deb, 8 November 2012, col Local authorities are required to make a scheme of allowances for their members and to have regard to the recommendations of an independent remuneration panel before making the scheme. 165 Ev w24 [District Councils Network]; Ev 183 [Cllr Alycia James]; Qq [Cllrs Jeff Reid and Judith Wallace]

36 34 Councillors on the frontline Allowances now for front-line councillors, certainly for leading councillors, are high enough to offend the public but not high enough to encourage any sane person to give up their career and earning capacity to take it on. 166 Cllr Robert Knowles said that he had found allowances to be a deterrent to potential candidates coming forward: When we recruited last year we held an evening in the council chamber for anyone who was interested. A lot of people came and somebody dared to ask the question, What is the allowance? and once they were told, you could see their faces drop, and nobody who came to that meeting stood for council Participants at our discussion forum suggested that councillors were reluctant to vote for an increase in allowances because they were conscious of a negative reaction in the media and amongst the public. 168 Cllr Golton, Leader of the Liberal Democrat Group on Leeds City Council, said that in his authority, councillors did not always take [the independent panel s] advice, because [...] you will always be portrayed as voting for a pay rise. 169 Cllr Knowles told us that without any doubt whatsoever councils were too afraid of public opinion to increase allowances. He said that whenever the review panel comes up with figures, it is always refused, because the time is not right. 170 Consequently, the annual allowance in his district was 2,454, 171 although there was an intention to increase allowances significantly in the coming year There is a case for addressing this issue by taking decisions about allowances out of councillors hands. One option would be to determine allowances in accordance with a national framework. Dame Jane Roberts, who chaired the Councillors Commission, told us that the Commission had recommended a national framework of guiding principles for member allowances, suggesting a national minimum basic allowance for each type and size of authority, and a carer s allowance. 173 We heard some support for the standardisation of allowances, 174 but others considered that remuneration should be determined locally Another option for taking decisions about allowances away from councillors, but one which maintains local decision making, would be to give councils the power to appoint an external body, not only to advise on allowances but to make binding decisions. The Minister, Brandon Lewis, wrote to us following oral evidence with his response to this suggestion: 166 Q Q Annex, para Q Q Q Qq Ev 146, para Ev 179, para 2.7 [Cllr Rowan Draper] and Ev w58 [note of Local Government Association seminar] 175 Ev w59 [note of Local Government Association seminar]

37 Councillors on the frontline 35 I am clear that the allowances are and should be a local matter, and that authorities themselves are best placed to consider what is appropriate in their circumstances. [...] If the proposal was that each authority should establish an independent panel, or use its existing panel, to decide allowances, then [...] it remains my view that it is best for the councillors themselves [...] to take the final view on what are appropriate allowances in all the circumstances of their council Amongst the ideas raised at our discussion forum was the suggestion that employed councillors receive loss of earnings compensation instead of an allowance. 177 It appears to us that employed councillors could lose out on income if they take time off work to perform their councillor duties and therefore have a greater dependence on their allowances than, for example, retired councillors. Providing an element of loss of earnings compensation with the allowance could help to address this issue. Mr Lewis appeared not to favour this suggestion: Being a councillor is a voluntary public service; it is not a salaried job. In principle, councillors are already compensated for loss of earnings as allowances are intended to ensure that councillors are not out-of-pocket as a result of their public duties. The existing guidance states that the basic allowance, which all councillors receive, is intended to recognise the time commitment of all councillors, including such inevitable calls on their time as meetings with officers and constituents and attendance at political group meetings Being a councillor is a form of public service, and people do not become councillors for the money. Nevertheless, as being a councillor becomes more demanding and the time commitment greater, those becoming councillors have a right to expect an appropriate level of compensation, especially if they have to take time off work to carry out their duties. The levels of allowances currently offered by many councils, at best, do not encourage and, at worst, deter capable people from standing for election. The problem is exacerbated because councils are reluctant to vote for an increase for fear of the media and public reaction. We agree that decisions about allowances are best made locally, but consider that they should be taken out of councillors hands. We recommend that the Government give councils the ability to transfer responsibility for setting allowances to independent local bodies. Unlike the current panels, which can only make recommendations, these bodies would make decisions about levels of allowances that councils would be required to accept. It would be inconsistent for Parliament to deny councils the option it has chosen for the determination of its own pay and conditions. 82. It is important to consider in particular those councillors who lose out on earnings when taking time off work to perform their duties. It is unfair that for these councillors the allowance is an essential part of their livelihood, while others receive it on top of their income. We recommend that the Government give councils (or, if the recommendation above is accepted, local allowance bodies) the power to include a capped element to 176 Ev Annex, para Ev 187

38 36 Councillors on the frontline compensate for loss of earnings as part of a councillor s allowance. This would address our concern about the current situation, where a large proportion of councillors are retired and do not have the same need as employed councillors to increase allowances. Allowances therefore remain low and act as a deterrent for those considering whether to stand for election in future. The current arrangements become self-perpetuating. 83. Although the Minister insisted that decisions about allowances were a matter for local determination, he nevertheless appeared to criticise Cornwall Council in light of reports of a proposal to increase allowances by 20%: In the current climate, that is a very unusual decision to be looking to take. Councils should be looking quite carefully at that, particularly at a time when every household is squeezed. If we are looking at councils to play their part and then they put up allowances, there is a question mark We are concerned at the inconsistency in the Minister s position on allowances. On the one hand, he insisted that the setting of allowances was a matter for local determination. On the other hand, he was prepared to question a decision on allowances that a local authority had quite legitimately taken. This inconsistency illustrates our concerns about guided localism. Councils should be free to exercise their decision-making power without facing criticism whenever Ministers disagree with the decisions they make. 179 Q 408

39 Councillors on the frontline 37 5 Councillor performance and training 85. As the roles of councillors change, and they face ever increasing demands and expectations, it is important that there are appropriate mechanisms in place for supporting their performance and training them in the skills they need. In this chapter, we will consider these issues, looking first at the performance of councillors before examining current training provision and how this may need to change. 86. Paul Wheeler, Director of the Political Skills Forum, said that there was a need to acknowledge that some councillors do the bare minimum of work but because they represent safe wards they are immune from electoral pressure and can act as political bed-blockers. 180 He suggested that there should be performance measurement in place and pointed to a performance reporting form produced by Oldham Council, which councillors completed with details of their activities over the past year and which was published on the internet. 181 Mr Wheeler argued that, with this information, the party members and wider audience at the selection and election stage can decide if their existing councillors have reached appropriate levels of performance and activity. 182 He also suggested that we consider whether the current requirement for councillor activity (one committee meeting per cycle) before disqualification is sufficient The representatives of the three main political parties all referred to contracts between the party and the councillor. Robert Neill, the Conservative Party s Vice Chairman, Local Government, said that the party had recently introduced into our standard selection process an agreement to stand, which all Conservative councillor candidates have to sign up to. 184 Olly Buston, Executive Director of Members and Supporters for the Labour Party, said that its councillor contracts were a relatively new innovation over the last few months in terms of being party policy, but they very much build on best practice that has been happening across the country for many years and in many places. 185 Steve Hitchins, representing the Liberal Democrats, said that because of his party s devolved structure, there was no hard and fast set of rules but that the party had been getting candidates to sign contracts as long ago as 1998, and since then they have been part of the Be a Councillor programme [...] as a firm recommendation. 186 All three parties also said that their candidates did not have a right to automatic reselection. 187 Steve Hitchins told us that 180 Ev Reports available at: Ev As above 184 Q Q Q Qq 393 4

40 38 Councillors on the frontline within the Liberal Democrats, the contracts are increasingly being used as a tool in reselection Most councillors do an excellent job and work very hard to serve their community. There are, however, some instances where councillors do little work and, because they represent safe seats, have little incentive to do more. We believe that there should be measures in place to deal with under-performance. We were pleased to hear about the steps political parties were taking to put in place councillor contracts. As we have already observed, it is important that the commitments made by political parties at a national level are translated into action on the ground. We urge the parties to ensure arrangements are in place for the active monitoring of contracts. Moreover, before deciding to reselect a councillor, local parties should give thorough consideration to the councillor s performance over the previous term. 89. There is also a role for local authorities. We encourage local authorities to put in place light touch arrangements for reporting councillor performance. As part of this, councillors could be asked to complete a brief annual self-assessment to be made public in an accessible format. This should cover not only attendance at formal meetings, but also details of the work councillors have carried out within their communities. Training Skills 90. In Chapter 2, we established that the councillor s role was changing and becoming much more community-focused. Witnesses have argued that the training provided to councillors has to change in line with this. The Association of Democratic Services Officers (ADSO) referred to a survey of councils it had conducted, which found that councils were placing an emphasis not only on essential knowledge required to be a councillor, but also on the softer skills necessary for successful community leaders such as communication, listening, networking, dealing with challenging situations/people, negotiating, facilitating, managing and ensuring change, plus team building skills. 189 Hertfordshire County Council told us that member training had been re-examined in light of its councillors changing role and that communication and consultation skills and techniques needed to engage with their local communities are being emphasised to enable councillors to be successful as social activists We heard that it was important for all councillors to have these softer, frontline skills. Witnesses also described the need for councillors to receive training in other areas, depending on their particular role. Cllr Robert Oliver, Leader of the Conservative Group on Sunderland City Council, said: 188 Q Ev w75 76, para Ev 158

41 Councillors on the frontline 39 being leader of the majority party in opposition the main focus of my work is scrutiny of the council s policy. Most of the training in terms of information comes from the Conservative Party. An important role of your party is to provide that information to you. As far as [this] concerns council officers, what you can expect from them is factual information, memos and asking questions about things. That has been good. 191 Tim Gilling, Acting Executive Director of the Centre for Public Scrutiny, described the need for scrutiny councillors to be skilled in data analysis, as well as softer [skills] that councillors will use outside the formal scrutiny environment. 192 Cllr Robert Knowles, Leader of Waverley Borough Council, referred to the importance of training for councillors who sat on statutory committees such as planning and licensing. He said that, as Leader, he would not allow councillors to sit on these committees unless they had received the necessary training A further area for training was in helping councillors to understand the implications of particular Government policies. Staffordshire County Council referred to the training it provided to raise councillors awareness of key policy developments such as Public Health responsibilities transferring back to local authorities. 194 Cllr Richard Kemp, Director of the Liberal Democrats Winning with Localism operation, referred to the need for councillors to be supported to take advantage of the opportunities offered by the Localism Act He described the quality of training provided by councils and others on this issue as dire. 195 Providers of training 93. Currently, training for councillors is provided by a range of organisations, including councils themselves, political parties, the Local Government Association (LGA), the Centre for Public Scrutiny and regional organisations such as West Midlands Councils. We heard that some of this training was well-received, and our evidence was particularly positive about that provided by the LGA There was, however, a more mixed view about training provided by political parties. Paul Wheeler said that with the exception of the Liberal Democrats the political parties are dreadful. They just take councillors money and give them nothing in return, so the LGA have filled the gap [...] I do think the parties have to completely change their approach, because these are the frontlines of politics and I think the councillors have to take them seriously Q Q Q Ev w Ev w See, for example, Qq [Cllr Alycia James], Ev w59 [seminar participants], Ev w79 [Jack Hopkins]. 197 Q 302

42 40 Councillors on the frontline Cllr Knowles agreed, saying that training from the parties stops the day that you are elected, and I think that is poor. 198 Olly Buston accepted that, while there were many training opportunities available, the Labour Party could do an awful lot more, particularly in terms of identifying people s particular needs and co-ordinating how people access all that diversity of training and signposting and flagging appropriate things for people. 199 He said that to address this issue, his party was piloting a councillor diploma to provide a more tailored, co-ordinated approach that builds from the individual outwards. 200 Robert Neill said that the Conservative Party did quite a lot of training and added that it is in the party s interest to make sure it has councillors who perform, because they are going to be more likely to be re-elected at the end of the day and they will also have done a better job for their communities in the process The role of councillors is varied, and it is important that training provision reflects this. We encourage political parties, local authorities and other bodies to review the training they offer to ensure it meets the needs of councillors. In particular, training should reflect the changing roles of councillors, and ensure that councillors understand the implications of the Localism Act 2011 and other new legislation. However, councillors themselves must ultimately be responsible for ensuring they have the skills they need to carry out their duties. We suggest that, as part of the performance reporting process we propose above, councillors make public details of any training they have completed in the course of the preceding year. Training should be seen as a benefit, not a cost, to local taxpayers. Member development budgets 96. Given the funding reductions they are facing, there may be a temptation amongst councils to reduce the training and support provided to members. ADSO s survey of 52 local authorities found that 38 have ring fenced their budgets for member development in recent years. Seven have increased them and seven have reduced them. 202 However, ADSO noted that the figures did not tell us whether staffing support in relation to member development has been reduced. ADSO s experience is that it has. National and regional associations are cutting back on their member support roles. Staff numbers are being reduced within local authorities, posts are being merged and there is undoubtedly less staffing support for member development than previously Q Q As above 201 As above 202 Ev w74, para Ev w74, para 3.3

43 Councillors on the frontline 41 It said that, while this reduction in staffing was attributed to budget cuts, this could also be seen as a reflection on the priority (or that lack of it) which some councils afford to member development On the one hand, we are encouraged that a number of councils have chosen to ring fence their member development budgets; on the other hand, we are concerned by reports that the staffing to support this member development is being reduced in a number of authorities. While we recognise the budgetary pressures councils are under, we consider it essential that they ensure that there are sufficient resources to meet their members development needs. Without training and development, councillors effectiveness and job satisfaction will suffer. 98. At a time when councillors are being called on to make increasingly difficult decisions about service reductions and budget priorities, this is not the moment to reduce their ability to undertake these vital tasks. Councillors have more need than ever for the support and resources to enable them to fulfil their decision-making and scrutiny roles. Training before election 99. We also heard that it was important for training to be provided prior to election. The Centre for Women and Democracy stated: Women are particularly likely to take the view that, before taking on the commitments of public office, they should get some training. This is sometimes viewed as a weakness or a sign of lack of confidence; in fact, given the complexities of modern local government and the enormous sums of public money involved, it is more of a strength, and political parties should all be doing more to try to meet this need (for men as well as for women; women are simply more likely to articulate it). 205 A lack of knowledge about local government and its activities was cited as one of the reasons people did not stand for election. 206 Giving people some knowledge of what the role of councillor might entail could help to bring potential candidates forward Training should be provided to potential candidates before they stand for election, to give them some knowledge of what they can expect from being a councillor. We encourage councils and political parties to work together to organise taster courses and briefing sessions for those considering standing for election. 204 Ev w74, para Ev 167, para See, for example, Ev 155 [Local Government Association], para

44 42 Councillors on the frontline 6 Conclusion 101. The role of councillors is changing and becoming more community-focused. In this inquiry, we have heard some excellent examples of the way councils have been responding to localism, devolving power to their councillors and helping them to respond more effectively to their constituents needs. We have also heard about the tireless efforts of individual councillors. We pay tribute to the councillors across the country who are working hard for their communities, speaking up for them, addressing their problems and concerns, helping them get projects off the ground, and working with other organisations to ensure people get the representation they need. We encourage all councils and councillors to look at what others are doing, and see what can be learnt Moves to bring councillors closer to their communities raise challenges. For too long, council chambers have been dominated by a particular sub-set of the population; too little has been done to change this state of affairs. Constituents should be able to look at their councillors and see people like them. We therefore need to increase the number of women, younger people, black and minority ethnic people, and those from other under-represented groups serving on local authorities. This task will not be easy. It requires political parties to change their cultures; it requires local authorities to take active steps to promote local democratic engagement. There are already signs that this is starting to happen, but it needs to happen more quickly Steps are also needed to address some of the practical barriers to people standing for election. We need to give councillors support so that their duties do not overwhelm or intimidate them. We have to consider how employers can be incentivised to give support to, and be proud of, their staff who serve as councillors. Moreover, we cannot shy away from the issue of remuneration: allowances need to be sufficient to recognise that councillors sacrifice not only a significant amount of time, but often part of their earnings as well Finally, the more community-focused role of councillors makes it all the more important to have high-performing, effective councillors. The public have a right to know how their councillors are performing, and local political parties, before reselecting councillors, should consider what they have achieved during their term of office. Training needs to be adapted to the way councillors duties are changing Councillors should be at the centre of community life, well known and respected by those they represent, and empowered to effect change within their local areas. We believe that, in future, all councillors should be on the frontline: central government, political parties, local authorities and, above all, councillors themselves have to play their part in achieving this ambition. Democracy at all levels depends on the health of its councillor base.

45 Councillors on the frontline 43 Annex: Communities and Local Government Committee Discussion Forum Portcullis House, Monday, 17 September 2012 Councillors and the Community Background 1. The Houses of Parliament Outreach Service was approached by the Communities and Local Government Committee who wanted to engage with the public as part of their Councillors and the Community inquiry The Committee wanted to learn more about why people chose, or chose not, to stand at local elections. The Committee particularly wanted to hear from people from a range of backgrounds, who had either had experience as a councillor, had wanted to be a candidate or had considered being a councillor but decided not to stand. 3. The Outreach Service organised an event with 31 people, who had been identified and contacted using the Outreach Service s Customer Relationship Management database. Of these 31 participants, eight were currently councillors and two had previously been councillors. In addition, 16 of the attendees were women and 12 of the attendees were from BME backgrounds. There were also individuals from the Workers Educational Association, Friends, Families and Travellers and the Federation of Small Businesses. 4. This event took place on Monday, 17 September 2012 at Westminster and was attended by seven members of the Communities and Local Government Committee. 2 The event included a short introduction to the work of the Committee by the Committee Chair, Mr Clive Betts MP. The group was then divided into seven smaller groups where members of the Committee chaired discussions on four different themes. These themes are explained in the paragraphs below. 5. The evidence submitted below is a note of those discussions and represents the views of the attendees. Discussion groups 6. Attendees were divided into seven groups, and were allocated by the Outreach team to ensure that each group had a mix of experiences. Attendees were not given the choice of which group they would join. The make-up of the groups was as follows: Group 1: A group of five, with three men and two women. Two were currently councillors and two had previously been councillors. 1 The report produced from the inquiry was Councillors on the frontline. 2 Mr Clive Betts MP, Heidi Alexander MP, Simon Danczuk MP, Bill Esterson MP, James Morris MP, Mark Pawsey MP and Heather Wheeler MP

46 44 Councillors on the frontline Group 2: A group of five, with three men and two women. Two were currently councillors and one had been a councillor. Group 3: A group of five, with three men and two women. One was a councillor and two had attempted to become councillors. Group 4: A group of four, with two men and two women. One was a councillor and one used to be a councillor. Group 5: A group of five with one man and four women. One of the group was currently a councillor. Group 6: A group of three, with two men and one woman. One of the group was currently a councillor. Group 7: A group of five, with two men and three women. One of the group was currently a parish councillor. Discussions 7. The discussion centred around four main themes and questions which are set out in the headings below. Each group had 20 minutes to discuss each theme, with the discussions being led by a different MP each time. The MPs moved around the groups in a predetermined order. Each MP spoke to at least three different groups. All groups attempted to keep the discussion of the four themes separate, but there were some comments and observations which crossed over two or more of the themes. The main points of these discussions are covered below. A number of direct quotes from participants are set out in boxes inserted into the text. THEME 1: MOTIVATIONS AND EXPERIENCES Why did you decide to become a councillor? 8. Across the groups there was a wide range of motivations for becoming a councillor. Of the participants who were currently councillors, several had been politically active generally members of a party before they considered standing for election and most were asked by senior party members, their MP or existing councillors to stand for election. Others had been campaigning on a single issue for example, a controversial planning decision and had become involved that way. Within this section of participants, most had then gone on to join a political party but some had stood as independent candidates. 9. Others who were currently councillors had decided to stand because they were already serving their communities for instance as volunteers or community workers and they had considered they could better serve their community as a councillor, as they could be involved in decision-making. Others said that the high levels of job satisfaction achieved through meeting people and being able to help individuals with their problems had appealed to them. Some felt that they had a responsibility to help people and had wanted to make a difference.

47 Councillors on the frontline A small number of the councillors attending had also stood because of their experience of existing councillors or services one participant had been impressed with the work of her local councillor and wanted to do the same but most of this group had stood because they were dissatisfied with their existing councillors; they had considered them inactive, ineffective or that they didn t represent them or their community. One councillor had chosen to stand because of a particular experience that had happened at a local school; the councillor had felt the school had not been operated in the best interest of the pupils. The participant had become a councillor to prevent this happening again. 11. Some groups explored with the councillors what previous knowledge of the role of councillor they had before they were elected. Many councillors said that they knew very little or nothing about the role before standing for election and were surprised by the actuality. One participant said he had been surprised by how much social work a councillor did when fulfilling casework duties. Another participant had only met council officers after she had been elected. Those that had had some prior knowledge about the role had acquired it via their local political party, where they had been given advice about their workload and a job description. 12. There was general agreement that local councils did not provide adequate information about becoming a councillor or what the role entailed. The information that was available was generally anecdotal and could be incorrect. But most of the councillors taking part in these discussions said that they had attended a council meeting or visited their local council chamber before they stood for election. Why did you decide not to become a councillor? 13. For many of those who weren t councillors, one of the reasons that they had decided not to stand was because it hadn t occurred to them or they weren t asked. Some also took the view that many people lacked confidence and did not think they had the skills to be a councillor. Many said that, if more people knew more about the role of a councillor and the skills required, then potential candidates would be less intimidated about standing. 14. The younger participants often cited their age as a reason for not standing, saying that they felt they were too young. Some also said they formed the impression that older people were not so accepting of younger councillors, possibly because they felt threatened by them. It was also suggested that political parties tended to prefer candidates with long experience of party activism, making it difficult for younger people. However, some of the older participants responded that there was a lack of community spirit, which meant that many good candidates were not coming forward, resulting in the quality of councillor being reduced over the last decade. 15. Some attendees said that the role of councillor was not suitable for many women with families as they might not able to access flexible childcare arrangements. Both male and female participants were put off by time commitment, not only in terms of their domestic commitments but also due to the effect it might have on their careers some did not feel that councillors allowances were enough to compensate for this (more detail at paragraphs 51-57).

48 46 Councillors on the frontline 16. Among the younger participants there was a concern that becoming a councillor could potentially interrupt or upset their career progression. Similarly, some potential councillors were concerned that, should they change their working arrangements once they were elected for example, to switch to part-time work they might be unable to make the change back should they not be successful at the next election. Do you think being a councillor is the best way to serve your local community? 17. A number of contrasting views were expressed by the groups when answering this question. Some considered that they could achieve more as a community volunteer or activist than as a local councillor. However, others felt that, as a councillor, they would have the authority, credibility and influence over multiple areas to make a real difference to the local community. A councillor could use his or her authority, for example, to require the release of information. 18. One participant said that her community would view her differently if she became a councillor and was concerned that the political aspects of the job would get in the way. It was considered that councillors could get bogged down in so much paperwork that they could lose touch with their local area, visibility and the connection with their community. Once you become a suit a politician you re one of them. Councillors get sucked in and lose focus then people feel disconnected from them. 19. One participant, who was not a councillor, considered he was more effective working with small businesses outside of the council. Inside councils it took time for things to happen which could be achieved more quickly externally. Another person who was not a councillor had started a course encouraging different forms of community engagement and involvement, which included becoming a councillor, but did not want to be a councillor themselves. For those participants who are or have been councillors, would you recommend the role to other people? 20. Of the existing councillors present, most would recommend the role to others, albeit with certain caveats and advice. Most considered that the role could only be done successfully with support from partners, friends and family and thought it was essential that potential candidates understood that before standing. A number of participants had also recruited their successors or colleagues and mentored them as they began the role, to offer them further support. Participants suggested that candidates should shadow councillors before committing to standing for election. 21. A small number of participants had become disillusioned with local democracy during their experience standing unsuccessfully for election. Among the reasons cited were that they felt it was too political, there was nepotism involved and they considered that campaigning was too egotistical for them.

49 Councillors on the frontline 47 THEME 2: DIVERSITY AND REPRESENTATION Do you think it s important that the composition of a council is reflective of the community it is serving? 22. The groups agreed that councillors needed to be people with an understanding of their local area and its issues, although there were differing views on how important it was for the composition of the council to reflect the local community. Whilst groups generally agreed that it was essential that people from all walks of life were involved at some level, others considered that so long as councillors were prepared to listen to and represent all sections of society, their background wasn t relevant; diversity of experience was considered just as important. Some argued that just because a person might come from the same background as the people they represented, it did not always follow that they were in touch with them. Some participants considered that effective community engagement and local knowledge to be more important than personal background. 23. However, other participants emphasised the importance of having role models and people who look like me, particularly when it came to BME or younger candidates. Many participants said they felt more able to relate to somebody who was their own age or from their own background. It was considered that younger councillors provided valuable role models for young people to relate to, potentially stimulating an interest in local democracy. 24. Many considered that full representation across age, race and background was crucial if there was to be public trust and confidence in democratic institutions. In this day and age I can t believe that we are still being asked this question. It goes without saying that policies are far better devised and delivered when they are properly considered by a full representative group of decision makers. I m frustrated with what I am: I m old, I m white, etc. I just can t persuade people from the younger generation to get involved. They don t have the time. Some councillors argued that, if councils were truly in touch with their communities and reflective of the people who lived in their areas, there wouldn t be any need to commission reports to understand particular communities or multicultural cities; this knowledge would already be in place. 25. It was considered that with a council made up solely of councillors of a similar background, gender and ethnicity, not only was talent being wasted, but there were also concerns whether the councillors would be able to understand and resolve the great range of issues that would come when representing a diverse area. 26. Some took the view that older people did not have the same insight into the issues affecting young people, such as tuition fees and getting on the housing ladder. Some argued that, as well as having more younger councillors, there would be benefits to all councillors receiving training in youth and community work.

50 48 Councillors on the frontline 27. A number of participants considered some older councillors spoke of, and advertised, their length of service as a badge of honour. It was said that candidates who had been active in a political party for a number of years were more likely to get selected, which created a barrier for young, prospective councillors. Moreover, if older councillors were asked whether there should be more young people on the council, they would say yes, but they generally wouldn t see themselves as part of the problem. What do you think puts people from under-represented groups (women, younger people, BME people, disabled people, Gypsies and Travellers) off from standing for election? 28. One councillor said there was a confidence gap between men and women, with women feeling they White males who dominate and drive were not appropriately qualified, nepotistic systems of (party) selection that which deterred them from standing. exclude anyone they can t put down, shout down or marginalise out of a discussion. Similarly they felt the atmosphere surrounding standing for election for example when attending local party meetings could put women and other under-represented groups off from standing. 29. Some, particularly those who were not councillors, considered that many people did not become candidates because they didn t feel it was for people like them. It was felt that many potential candidates who are from commonly excluded groups lacked the confidence to challenge the status quo. It s all male, pale and stale. 30. One participant noted that there were a number of Asian women in their community that wanted to get involved, but not only were they held back by the hours, which were not perceived to be woman-friendly, they also needed additional support for things like campaigning, when they needed people on the street with them. This sort of additional support simply wasn t available for most women. 31. Many considered that much of the problem came from a poor level of understanding of how local and national political systems worked and a lack of information about how to become politically active. This was felt to begin from poor citizenship education in schools and to be exacerbated by low levels of political engagement by councils with local civil society. A way to improve this would be to involve councillors in education programmes, not only in schools but in local community projects and organisations. If you don t start voting when you get the vote at 18, you probably never will. What can be done to encourage more people from these sections of society to stand? 32. One of the participants who was not a councillor and many of the younger attendees suggested that introducing limits on the number of consecutive terms, or on the total years

51 Councillors on the frontline 49 that could be served as a councillor, would reduce the stranglehold that older people seemed to have on councils. 33. One participant suggested that holding youth forums to debate and make decisions on particular issues, which were then fed back to the council chamber, would help to engage young people in the democratic process. Alternatively, through youth councils, young people could have an opportunity to shadow elected councillors and participate in decision making in relevant policy areas. 34. It was also considered that more effective use of the internet and social media would allow younger people to engage with their local councillors in a format that appealed to them and was much less time consuming than a letter, or even an . It was felt that instant updates on Twitter and Facebook engaged young people in a way that a leaflet could not. However, it was suggested that many incumbent councillors were fearful of social media. Facebook allows for more engagement. People get involved without having to leave the house. 35. Others considered that there were many able candidates being overlooked because they were waiting to be asked. One suggestion for tackling this problem would be to impose a routine requirement on all electoral returning officers to run pro-active public information programmes to inform and empower more people to nominate themselves to stand for election. 36. One group heard that there were some sections of society that were completely disenfranchised, not on the electoral register, and unclear when, where and how to vote. Work was urgently needed to target these chronically excluded people, monitoring where there were gaps in representation and taking action to address these gaps. This action could include visits by local and national politicians, work placements and shadowing schemes. The Gypsy and Traveller community was one group of people that could benefit from this action: at present, there were only three known Gypsy or Traveller local authority councillors out of around 40,000 nationally. Is there a place for some form of positive discrimination to broaden the pool of candidates? 37. Across the groups there were mixed views on positive discrimination; some participants considered it to be an effective way of tackling under-representation quickly. Some argued that it was the only way to ensure that councils mirrored the areas they were representing and that in some communities having an all-female shortlist was a necessity and the only means to prevent a council being predominantly male. 38. Others, however, considered positive discrimination to be anti-democratic. There was the additional concern that it undermined councillors if they were selected on the basis of their gender, ethnicity or age, rather than their merits. Furthermore a small number of participants considered that any form of positive action would invite incompetence rather than ability.

52 50 Councillors on the frontline THEME 3: PRACTICALITIES OF THE ROLE Is it possible to juggle being a councillor with a full-time job and domestic commitments? 39. Most participants took the view that the time required of councillors varied and depended on a number of factors: position in the council, executive or committee function, casework levels, local issues, the pressure to get re-elected and travelling times, which was a pressing issue in rural and county authorities. Many councillors added, however, that there was a general expectation that all councillors would be available during the day, which for many was not possible. 40. Some participants observed that young people and those in their thirties often did not have enough time to devote to being a councillor because of work, study or family commitments. Moreover, chief whips did not necessarily understand the juggling act that younger councillors with such commitments had to perform. Some younger councillors stood down at the end of the twenties to focus on their career or family life. Consequently, in a number of councils, there were very few councillors in their thirties or early forties. 41. A large majority of participants agreed that the more time a councillor was able to spend on councillor duties, the more effective he or she could be. Some believed that to make a real When in full time employment, I was less effective as a councillor. difference as a councillor one needed to work at it full-time. Likewise, the few that had tried to fit in their councillor duties around full-time employment said that they had not been as effective as they could have been. Some considered that, in order to be effective, councillors had to commit at least 15 hours per week, but that they could achieve more and be better councillors if they did more than that. 42. Some councillors considered that they were only able to serve because of support provided by others in particular, spouses or relatives who were able to assist them financially or with childcare. Many felt that there would be some people, single mothers, for example, who would be prevented from being councillors as a result. If it wasn t for the (financial) support of my husband, I couldn t do this job. How many jobs is a woman supposed to do? Mum, full-time worker, councillor... For those who have chosen not to stand for election, to what extent were you put off by the time commitment involved? 43. Of the participants who had considered becoming a councillor but had not stood, there was an approximately equal division between those who had been discouraged by the time commitment and those who had been put off by the political aspect of the job. (The political de-motivation is covered in more detail in paragraph 57 below.) 44. Of the other group, many were put off by anecdotal stories they had heard for example of younger councillors with full time jobs working on casework until 11pm in the

53 Councillors on the frontline 51 evening. Many considered that they already had enough commitments to juggle; they felt they could not commit, particularly since there was no trial period; and once they were elected, they would be in that position for four years. To provide some experience of the demands, it was suggested that those wanting to be councillors should carry out other roles in their party or community first. For those who are councillors, how easy it is to find the time needed to fulfil the role? Do you have a supportive employer? 45. The support offered by employers tended to vary, with participants reporting that the most supportive employers tended to be the public sector and the third sectors, some of which had formal processes to provide the flexible working required to be a councillor. It was considered that private sector companies were generally less supportive. One participant, who was a councillor but was also unemployed, reported a severe detrimental [I was told at the job centre] Have you ever thought about giving up being a councillor in order to make yourself more available to work? Nobody wants to employ a councillor. effect on employment prospects because of being a councillor. It was reported that some employers were reluctant to recruit councillors, not least because they had to grant them time off for public duties. Another said that some employment agencies would not put councillors on their books To make employers more supportive of employing councillors, it was suggested that companies be directly reimbursed for the time lost by their employee when performing duties as a councillor. Some took the view that this might benefit larger companies, but that it would not be practical for those working in smaller businesses, as generally these companies needed their employees time; it was unlikely they would be able to afford hiring replacement staff with the money reimbursed. There was widespread agreement that there ought to be legislation in place to stop employers discriminating against councillors. What additional support could be given to help councillors carry out their role? 47. An issue that was mentioned across several groups was that of prospective councillors not having enough understanding about what the job would entail and there being limited opportunities to find out more. Many said that if they had been able to shadow a councillor or attend meetings before standing for election, they would have had better knowledge of the time commitment involved. If new councillors (particularly those outside the party structure) could have mentors on the council that would also provide additional support. 48. There was a varied response from existing councillors about the amount of support that was offered to them in terms of administrative duties and it was clear that there was not a consistent approach across authorities. Some councillors had been offered the ICT necessary to facilitate remote working (which those using it considered was essential), 3 The justification offered was that a councillor s duties were seen as a second job, which disqualified them.

54 52 Councillors on the frontline whereas others had not even been provided with a mobile phone. Likewise, some authorities provided shared resources, such as office staff for administrative functions, but this was not thought to cover research assistance for casework, which many thought would be a very useful form of support. New councillors need training on admin and formal aspects of being a councillor, so that good people can hit the ground running. 49. Those attending the forum had limited experience of receiving or undertaking training; the majority said that they had their training on the job. Another point made about training was that it was often offered during the day, during office hours (9-5), so was not accessible to many councillors. Some councillors said that they wanted to undertake additional training, but that there was insufficient funding available. 50. The suggestion was made for the introduction of a nationally recognised set of qualifications for councillors, based on their work, which would demonstrate their transferable skills, and assist them when it came to returning to work. It was considered that more effort should be made to emphasise the advantages of employing a councillor for instance, being a councillor gave people an understanding of local government and increased their confidence and analytical skills. Do you think councillors are paid enough? Would more money attract more candidates? 51. Some participants said that councillors ought to be full-time, or at least paid a living wage. Some considered that it would be better to reduce the number of councillors by half was suggested but for the remaining councillors to be full-time and be paid as such. However, there were other participants who felt that having full-time councillors might result in some becoming professional councillors who were more detached from the community. It was pointed out that councillors who also had a job brought a wider range of skills and experience to the role than those who did nothing other than council work. One participant observed that running a council had many similarities to running a business. Another participant (a councillor) indicated no interest in the financial aspects of council business. 52. Several people who have never been or were no longer councillors said that they would be enthusiastic about being a councillor if it were a formal, full-time role, with a full-time salary. One said he would still be a councillor today if the finances had been right; he was forced to give it up for financial reasons. Another councillor would not be standing again unless there were better allowances. It was suggested that some councillors took on positions with higher allowances because they needed the money even if they did not have the experience and expertise needed to carry out the responsibilities. 53. A number of potential improvements to the current system of councillors allowances were suggested including: councillors receiving performance related pay; councillors only being paid for the number of hours they worked; councillors receiving compensation for loss of earnings rather than an allowance; councillors being paid the average UK wage; and councillors being paid the same salary as an MP on a pro-rata basis. However, on all of

55 Councillors on the frontline 53 these suggestions, some reservations were raised for example, concern that, if councillors were paid on the basis of their attendance, this might lead some councillors to attend meetings simply to sign the register and then leave. Some councillors also expressed frustration that they were paid the same allowance as those who they considered to be ghost councillors who I m convinced we should be paid full-time to conform to professional standards. did not undertake their duties. Several groups considered that a system of appraisal for councillors, in addition to their election perhaps at mid-term could help combat this abandonment of responsibilities. 54. However, many also considered that councillors were in a difficult position because they knew that there would be negative reaction from the public, and the media, if they were seen to be voting to increase their salaries or expenses (more detail on expenses can be found in paragraph 65). As a result, councils often voted to freeze allowances. This was acceptable for wealthy, retired councillors, but difficult for those with less income and resources who needed the allowance to carry out the role. Some were of the view that this could be mitigated by reducing the number of councillors (as mentioned in paragraph 51 above), so the overall salary bill would be the same. 55. It was also suggested that there needed to be some standardisation of allowances across authorities; one councillor said their basic allowance was 2,000 while another said theirs was 8,000. Many participants considered that there should be a consistent offer across authorities, with possibly the exception of London where some weighting might be justified. One suggestion made was to link council allowances to the pay of officer grades. 56. Other issues that were identified by councillors on their allowances were that they were often not able to make use of other government schemes and assistance. For example, one councillor pointed out that councillor allowances were deducted from unemployed councillors Job Seeker s allowance and another noted that allowances paid to councillors could remove entitlement to Tax Credits as they were counted as income when they should be considered as allowances. 57. Although some authorities provided expenses to cover childcare, it was not mandatory for authorities to provide this; many considered that better provision for childcare was essential if more young candidates were to take office, particularly women. However, a number of participants questioned how many people would actually claim these expenses and allowances if they were available, because of the general stigma surrounding claiming of expenses. (This issue is covered in more depth in Theme 4) THEME 4: PERCEPTIONS OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND POLITICS Do you think people are put off standing for council because of their perceptions of local government and politics? 58. Some participants who had not stood said that the adversarial nature, along with the wider, negative perception, of politics had put them off. Two participants said that they had felt the local council had created divisions in their community and did not want to be involved in such an organisation.

56 54 Councillors on the frontline 59. A number of participants felt that local and national media only focused on negative stories in relation to the work of councils and councillors, in turn creating a negative perception of local government and discouraging people from standing. Do councillors have much ability to effect change? Would people be more attracted if councillors had additional powers? 60. One participant said that he had decided to stand down from the council because of the change from the committee to the cabinet structure, with councillors being salaried rather than being paid for the work carried out. He considered that this led to lower levels of participation; he said that in one local council 32 people had been elected but only eight made decisions. However, another participant pointed that in very large councils it was necessary to have a cabinet system, otherwise nothing would get done. 61. Some participants considered that it was very difficult for councillors to effect change due to the inefficient way in which councils were run. One councillor said that council meetings were infrequent and delays were seen as the norm. Reports were drawn up slowly and steering groups were seen as a way to achieve delays. These problems were particularly acute in councils that were finely balanced politically and the current electoral cycles made it difficult to implement policies. 62. One councillor also noted that it used to be that officials ran councils and councillors made policy decisions. However, that was not the case now: councillors spent so much time running things that they didn t have time to focus on policy making decisions. In four years, I wonder whether I ll look back and think what have I done? Do you think it s harder to become a councillor if you are not a member of a political party? 63. Across the groups there was general agreement that, not only was it more difficult to be elected as a councillor if not affiliated to a political party, but that political parties It s too managerial now. It s difficult to get things done. A good council is where councillors and officers are both strong. within the council. provided a great deal more support for councillors beyond campaigning. Many councillors were given additional support when choosing to stand for election, such as shadowing a councillor, and more details of what the job would entail. On being elected, some councillors were also given mentors 64. Some who were not councillors said that they had been actively discouraged from becoming councillors by the perception that they needed the support of a political party for some this was because they didn t feel they could align their views with any one party and for others it was because they didn t want to be subject to a party line.

57 Councillors on the frontline Some participants said that more support needed to be given to those candidates who wanted to run independently. They agreed that some of the electorate might be suspicious of those not affiliated to a political party as they wouldn t have undertaken any screening I have more power acting independently than I would by becoming a Labour candidate. Becoming a councillor would shut me up. process, and therefore more needed to be done to make independent candidates more legitimate and credible. The point was also made that councils needed people with a history of activism so that they could command respect and attention without needing the support of a political party. 66. It was also noted that, if independent candidates did get elected, they did not have the same access to support as councillors from political parties. It was suggested that independent groups of a certain size be given access to council-funded administrative support. Are people s views about local government and councillors affected by wider perceptions of politics and politicians? 67. When discussing perceptions of politics and politicians, many cited the MPs expenses revelations that started in 2009 as affecting negatively perceptions of all politicians. All participants agreed that the expenses scandal had hardened the general public s view of elected representatives claiming taxpayers money. As a result, councillors faced increased difficulty claiming necessary expenses and were wary of using allowances, lest the information be used against them. This reinforced the trend towards councillors being people who could fund their activities from their own income and personal wealth without claiming expenses or allowances. A number of participants considered that public concerns could be allayed, at least in part, by a public expenses report produced by authorities without an intrusive amount of detail. 68. Many considered that a fear of what the public would say was not only preventing authorities from attracting a wider range of councillors, but also from achieving the best value for money. Some councillors believed that switching to a paperless office and using mobile devices like tablets, would not only save administration costs such as printing, but would allow more councillors to work remotely and flexibly, reducing the time and money spent travelling. However, authorities were reluctant to switch to new technology because of a fear of a backlash from the public if they were to provide councillors with this equipment. 69. Another common theme raised by councillors was that there was a certain degree of cynicism from the public about the role of councillors and MPs. Many councillors reported electors repeatedly commenting: we only ever see you at election time. A number of participants considered that councillors had to be visible in their communities. People could rarely identify their local councillor or council leader. However, it was noted that those councillors who took the time to walk around their wards and speak to people were much more recognisable. Senior politicians could often be out of touch on issues such as poverty and ought to take time to visit places in their area that they would not usually see.

58 56 Councillors on the frontline 70. Some councillors said they made the time regularly to visit their wards and speak to people, but it was very difficult to do so with so many other demands on their time; the only time when they were given the time to regularly visit people was when they were campaigning, which tended to exacerbate the problem. 71. Many of the participants considered that there was a need to rehabilitate the reputation of politicians. One suggestion was to find ways to demonstrate the work the councillors did for instance, through initiatives such as participatory budgeting so that people could have an insight into the decisions that councillors had to make. CONCLUSIONS 72. As would be expected from an event with such a diverse group of participants, there were a wide range of views, particularly on issues such as positive discrimination and how to ensure that councils were representative. However, although there were a number of differing opinions, there were a number of areas where there was consensus. 73. There was general agreement that there should be more young people in councils and that there needed to be more support provided for independent candidates, not only so they had the information and resources to stand for election, but also when they were elected. Many participants considered that better engagement through tools such as social media and wider use of the internet would not only allow quicker, more accessible engagement with their communities, but would also allow councillors easy access to indicative case studies, evidence and information they needed when formulating policy and making decisions. 74. The majority of participants took the view that more support had to be given to councillors, both financially and in terms of creating an environment where the electorate understood the work of councillors and valued their position in the community. Whilst participants accepted there might be some presentational issues to increasing allowances for councillors, many believed this was essential if local authorities were to attract and retain a variety of talented candidates. There was broad agreement that better civic education in schools and community engagement in local organisations was a key method of achieving this objective.

59 Councillors on the frontline 57 Conclusions and recommendations Councillors Commission 1. The Councillors Commission set out some important principles about the role and recruitment of councillors, and shone a light on a number of important issues, some of which we have considered in this inquiry. (Paragraph 5) Councillors in the community 2. We have heard different descriptions of the role councillors should be playing in their community. Some witnesses have referred to community leadership. Others have said that councillors should be facilitators or civic entrepreneurs. It does not really matter how this role is described: individual councillors will adapt their approaches to what works locally. What matters more is that the Government does not accidentally undermine the authority of councillors, and that councillors are, in turn, visible in their communities, getting out and about, meeting their constituents and giving them the help and support they need. In doing so, they should be encouraging communities to make the most of all the opportunities available to them, including those offered by the Localism Act By being visible and active, councillors can also become role models for others in the community and encourage a wider range of people to take an interest in local government. (Paragraph 15) 3. In supporting their communities, councillors should be working closely with external organisations and providers of public services. By forging close relationships with GPs, schools, neighbourhood policing teams, voluntary organisations and local businesses, councillors can broaden their understanding of the key issues facing their community. They also have a role in bringing organisations together to share intelligence and provide a co-ordinated and effective response to local needs. (Paragraph 17) 4. We urge all councils to consider how best to provide support to their councillors and assist them to ensure they have an active role in their communities. Wherever possible, councils should be seeking to devolve power and resources to councillors at the local level, to enable them to fulfil this role. This devolution could take a number of forms: enabling councillors to become mini mayors at the ward or community level; delegating budgets; or establishing area committees with decision-making responsibilities. We have seen good examples of what can be achieved: the levers are in place, so councils should get on with the job of devolving power. The approaches they take will depend upon the characteristics of the area and the type of authority, but it is important that examples of good practice are collected and publicised. Councils and the Local Government Association should work together to ensure that good practice is shared and that authorities learn from each other. (Paragraph 22) 5. Increasingly, council services are being delivered by external providers. In these cases, it is important that the role of the councillor is not reduced. Councillors have to be able to influence the way services are delivered, and should not be prevented from doing so because their authority is locked into a long-term contract where there

60 58 Councillors on the frontline is no access for local politicians to intervene in relation to service quality. Councils should take care when drawing up contracts to ensure that the contracts allow councillors to shape service delivery and have regular contact with frontline staff. (Paragraph 24) Guided and muscular localism 6. We remain concerned about the Government s mixed messages on localism. The Secretary of State s use of terms such as guided localism and now muscular localism suggests an inability to let go of the reins and embrace the concept fully. This can be frustrating and confusing for councillors and councils wishing to make the most of localism. We once again urge the Government to rein in its interventionist instincts, and to commit to giving councils real freedom to make important decisions about issues affecting their areas. Centrally directed localism is a contradiction in terms. (Paragraph 25) Structures and elections 7. We support the development of parish and town councils in areas that are currently unparished where communities wish to see them created, and welcome the Government s commitment to make it easier for communities to establish local councils. (Paragraph 29) 8. We recommend that councils from time-to-time give formal consideration to their electoral arrangements, ward composition, and, in collaboration with other authorities in their areas, their structures. If, following such consideration they are minded to make a change, they may wish to request that the Secretary of State or the Local Government Boundary Commission for England initiate a review or, if within their powers, make the changes to the arrangements themselves. (Paragraph 35) Representation and diversity 9. We consider it a matter of concern that the composition of many councils does not reflect that of the communities they serve. Clearly, we should not be looking for absolute reflectiveness (which would be impossible to achieve). We also accept that councillors do not necessarily have to come from a particular section of society to represent that section effectively. Nevertheless, healthy democracy depends upon different sections of society feeling a connection to those who represent them. It is, therefore, important to increase, for example, the numbers of women, younger people and black and minority ethnic people serving on local authorities, so that the membership of councils is better aligned to the make-up of the local populations they serve. Evidence presented to us suggested that there are areas where it can be difficult to find any candidates at all, and in these places the scale of the challenge will be all the greater. (Paragraph 39)

61 Councillors on the frontline 59 Recruitment of candidates 10. Political parties form the backbone of our democratic system. If we are to see a significant increase in the proportion of councillors from currently underrepresented groups, the three main parties together have an important (and probably the most important) role to play. We were pleased to see that the national parties were taking action to increase the number of candidates from under-represented groups and to encourage a broader pool of people to put themselves forward. We were also encouraged to hear that the parties had in place steps to address concerns raised with us about excessive caution and a lack of transparency in selection processes. However, while there are doubtless many examples of good practice, we did not see convincing evidence that party policies were being universally applied by local parties on the ground. The political parties must ensure that there are mechanisms in place to monitor the implementation of their national policies in all parts of the country, and that results are achieved. (Paragraph 46) 11. Being a councillor is not for everyone and some people will choose to serve their communities in other ways. Nevertheless, the values and skills involved in working in the voluntary sector or running a business will often reflect many of those required for service as a councillor. The political parties should initiate discussions with organisations representing the voluntary sector and business community to explore how they can work together to promote opportunities to stand for election. In addition, the parties should take steps to make themselves more open, for instance by creating a more welcoming atmosphere at meetings, so that people are not deterred by negative and possibly inaccurate perceptions of what being a party member entails. (Paragraph 50) 12. There are a number of approaches the political parties could take to increasing the diversity of the candidates they select. We are not advocating particular approaches but rather that parties should actively consider the options available. These options could include the use of open primaries, and the introduction of positive action policies. (Paragraph 55) Promoting local democracy 13. Local authorities should be actively promoting democratic engagement and explaining to the public what the role of councillor entails. The repeal of the Duty to Promote Democracy should be a spur to show that councils can develop and implement their own approaches to the promotion of local democracy, without the need for central government direction. We understand that local government is currently facing significant budgetary constraints. Nevertheless, we encourage all councils to put in place strategies for democratic engagement, in accordance with their local circumstances. These strategies should include a focus on engagement with under-represented and hard-to-reach groups. In particular, councils should be taking steps to promote the active involvement of young people. (Paragraph 61) 14. The Local Government Association (LGA) deserves credit for its work on the Be a Councillor programme, which is playing an important role in encouraging a wider group of people to stand at local elections. We welcome the political parties

62 60 Councillors on the frontline engagement in the programme. We note the suggestion for the creation of a Local Democracy Advocacy Organisation that could take over and expand the programme. While there is merit in this idea, we are wary of recommending the setting up of a new organisation, which could be expensive and time consuming. We would, however, encourage the LGA to expand the Be a Councillor programme, under its established branding, to enable it to play a wider role in the promotion of local democracy. The expanded Be a Councillor programme could take steps to share good practice from councils approaches to promoting democratic engagement. Steps to popularise the idea of becoming a councillor should be actively considered. (Paragraph 64) Time commitment and the attitude of employers 15. Councils should consider assigning to each councillor an officer who can assist them in managing their casework. In smaller authorities, this officer may be shared between a number of councillors. (Paragraph 70) 16. The Ministry of Defence is giving serious consideration to the ways in which employers can be encouraged to support military reservists. The Department for Communities and Local Government should conduct a similar review. We recommend that the Government consult on how employers can be encouraged to provide support to their staff who serve as councillors. Options that might be considered include a kitemark-style recognition scheme and the introduction of a financial incentive scheme. (Paragraph 75) Remuneration 17. We recommend that the Government give councils the ability to transfer responsibility for setting allowances to independent local bodies. Unlike the current panels, which can only make recommendations, these bodies would make decisions about levels of allowances that councils would be required to accept. It would be inconsistent for Parliament to deny councils the option it has chosen for the determination of its own pay and conditions. (Paragraph 81) 18. We recommend that the Government give councils (or, if the recommendation above is accepted, local allowance bodies) the power to include a capped element to compensate for loss of earnings as part of a councillor s allowance. This would address our concern about the current situation, where a large proportion of councillors are retired and do not have the same need as employed councillors to increase allowances. Allowances therefore remain low and act as a deterrent for those considering whether to stand for election in future. The current arrangements become self-perpetuating. (Paragraph 82) 19. We are concerned at the inconsistency in the Minister s position on allowances. On the one hand, he insisted that the setting of allowances was a matter for local determination. On the other hand, he was prepared to question a decision on allowances that a local authority had quite legitimately taken. This inconsistency illustrates our concerns about guided localism. Councils should be free to exercise

63 Councillors on the frontline 61 their decision-making power without facing criticism whenever Ministers disagree with the decisions they make. (Paragraph 84) Councillor performance 20. We were pleased to hear about the steps political parties were taking to put in place councillor contracts. As we have already observed, it is important that the commitments made by political parties at a national level are translated into action on the ground. We urge the parties to ensure arrangements are in place for the active monitoring of contracts. Moreover, before deciding to reselect a councillor, local parties should give thorough consideration to the councillor s performance over the previous term. (Paragraph 88) 21. We encourage local authorities to put in place light touch arrangements for reporting councillor performance. As part of this, councillors could be asked to complete a brief annual self-assessment to be made public in an accessible format. This should cover not only attendance at formal meetings, but also details of the work councillors have carried out within their communities. (Paragraph 89) Training 22. We encourage political parties, local authorities and other bodies to review the training they offer to ensure it meets the needs of councillors. In particular, training should reflect the changing roles of councillors, and ensure that councillors understand the implications of the Localism Act 2011 and other new legislation. However, councillors themselves must ultimately be responsible for ensuring they have the skills they need to carry out their duties. We suggest that, as part of the performance reporting process we propose above, councillors make public details of any training they have completed in the course of the preceding year. Training should be seen as a benefit, not a cost, to local taxpayers. (Paragraph 95) 23. On the one hand, we are encouraged that a number of councils have chosen to ring fence their member development budgets; on the other hand, we are concerned by reports that the staffing to support this member development is being reduced in a number of authorities. While we recognise the budgetary pressures councils are under, we consider it essential that they ensure that there are sufficient resources to meet their members development needs. Without training and development, councillors effectiveness and job satisfaction will suffer. (Paragraph 97) 24. At a time when councillors are being called on to make increasingly difficult decisions about service reductions and budget priorities, this is not the moment to reduce their ability to undertake these vital tasks. Councillors have more need than ever for the support and resources to enable them to fulfil their decision-making and scrutiny roles. (Paragraph 98) 25. Training should be provided to potential candidates before they stand for election, to give them some knowledge of what they can expect from being a councillor. We encourage councils and political parties to work together to organise taster courses and briefing sessions for those considering standing for election. (Paragraph 100)

64 62 Councillors on the frontline Councillors on the frontline 26. We pay tribute to the councillors across the country who are working hard for their communities, speaking up for them, addressing their problems and concerns, helping them get projects off the ground, and working with other organisations to ensure people get the representation they need. (Paragraph 101) 27. Councillors should be at the centre of community life, well known and respected by those they represent, and empowered to effect change within their local areas. We believe that, in future, all councillors should be on the frontline: central government, political parties, local authorities and, above all, councillors themselves have to play their part in achieving this ambition. Democracy at all levels depends on the health of its councillor base. (Paragraph 105)

65 Councillors on the frontline 63 Formal Minutes Monday 17 December 2012 Members present: Mr Clive Betts, in the Chair Simon Danczuk Bill Esterson Mark Pawsey Andy Sawford Heather Wheeler Draft Report (Councillors on the frontline), proposed by the Chair, brought up and read. Ordered, That the Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph. Paragraphs 1 to 105 read and agreed to. Annex and summary agreed to. Resolved, That the Report be the Sixth Report of the Committee to the House. Ordered, That the Chair make the Report to the House. Ordered, That embargoed copies of the Report be made available, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No Written evidence was ordered to be reported to the House for printing with the Report, together with evidence reported and order to be published on 11 June, 2 July, 16 July, 3 September, 15 October, 17 October and 7 November [Adjourned till Wednesday 19 December at 4.00 p.m.

66 64 Councillors on the frontline Witnesses Monday 2 July 2012 Page Dame Jane Roberts, Former Chair of the Councillors Commission Ev 1 Professor Colin Copus, Professor of Local Politics, De Montfort University, Liz Richardson, Research Fellow, University of Manchester and Professor Michael Thrasher, Professor of Politics, Plymouth University Ev 7 Cllr Peter Fleming, Chair, Improvement Board, Local Government Association, Tim Gilling, Acting Executive Director, Centre for Public Scrutiny and Caroline Abrahams, Director of External Affairs, Age UK Ev 15 Monday 9 July 2012 Cllr Paul Watson, Leader, Cllr Celia Gofton, Portfolio Holder, Responsive Services and Customer Care and Dr Dave Smith, Chief Executive, Sunderland City Council Ev 23 Cllr Robert Oliver, Leader of the Conservative Group, Cllr Colin Wakefield, Leader of Independent Councillors, Cllr David Tate, Chair of the Scrutiny Committee, Cllr Dianne Snowdon, Area Vice Chair, Washington Area and Labour Group Secretary and Cllr Michael Mordey, Policy Member, City Services, Sunderland City Council Ev 27 Cllr Paul Watson, Chair, Cllr Jeff Reid, Leader, Northumberland County Council and Cllr Judith Wallace, Deputy Mayor of North Tyneside, Association of North East Councils Ev 34 Alan Wright, Chairman, City of Sunderland Conservatives, Cllr Tom Wright, Secretary, Washington and Sunderland West Constituency Labour Party and Chair, Sunderland City Labour Group and Geoff Pryke, Delegated Nominating Officer, Wearside Liberal Democrats Ev 40 Wednesday 17 October 2012 Cllr Robert Gordon CBE, Leader and Cllr Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Leader of the Opposition, Hertfordshire County Council, Cllr Lucinda Yeadon, Executive Member for Adult Social Care and Cllr Stewart Golton, Leader of the Liberal Democrat Group, Leeds City Council Ev 48 Monday 22 October 2012 Robert Howard, Political and community activist and former councillor, Cllr Robert Knowles, Leader of Waverley Borough Council, Nan Sloane, Director, Centre for Women and Democracy and Paul Wheeler, Director, Political Skills Forum Ev 65 Cllr Rowan Draper, Stafford Borough Council, Cllr Alycia James, Lancaster City Council, Cllr Simon Killane, Wiltshire Council and Cllr Marianne Overton, Lincolnshire County Council and North Kesteven District Council Ev 75

67 Councillors on the frontline 65 Monday 29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Executive Director, Members and Supporters, Labour Party, Steve Hitchins, Liberal Democrat Lead on Be a Councillor programme and Robert Neill MP, Vice Chairman, Local Government, Conservative Party Ev 86 Brandon Lewis MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government Ev 96 List of printed written evidence Age UK Ev 111 Centre for Public Scrutiny Ev 162 Centre for Women and Democracy Ev 165 Professor Colin Copus, De Montfort University Ev 113 Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield Ev 120 Department for Communities and Local Government Ev 103, Ev 186 Cllr Rowan Draper Ev 177 The Elections Centre, Plymouth University Ev 173 Hertfordshire County Council Ev 157 Robert Howard Ev 104 Cllr Alycia James Ev 182 Cllr Simon Killane Ev 189 Cllr Robert Knowles Ev 187 Leeds City Council and Commission on the Future of Local Government Ev 176 Local Government Association Ev 151 Cllr Marianne Overton Ev 185 Liz Richardson, University of Manchester Ev 159 Dame Jane Roberts Ev 144 Sunderland City Council Ev 147 Paul Wheeler, Director, Political Skills Forum Ev 170, Ev 172 List of additional written evidence (published in Volume II on the Committee s website Association of Democratic Services Officers Janet Atkinson Bharti Boyle Buckinghamshire County Council Nigel Carter Community Council of Staffordshire Ev w74 Ev w42 Ev w36 Ev w5 Ev w38 Ev w34

68 66 Councillors on the frontline District Councils Network Ev w23 Dr Mark Ewbank Ev w17 Suzanne Fletcher Ev w73 Friends, Families and Travellers Ev w31, Ev w32 Warren W Hateley Ev w61 David Hill Ev w72 Jack Hopkins Ev w79 L. E. Horne Ev w36 Edward Houlton Ev w38 Robina Iqbal Ev w38 Desmond Jaddoo Ev w41 Cllr Lynda Jones Ev w68, Ev w69 Cllr Mike Jordan Ev w38 Cllr Richard Kemp CBE Ev w39 Rebecca Lane Ev w78 Jenny Lawrence Ev w34 Localis Ev w29 George McManus Ev w37 Cllr Iain Malcolm, Leader of South Tyneside Council Ev w62 Alfred Murphy Ev w35 NAVCA Ev w81 Netmums Ev w48 Scott Nicholson Ev w1 Timothy J Oates Ev w40 Office for Public Management Ev w7 Christopher Padley Ev w70 Participants in Local Government Association seminar Ev w58 Cllr Norman Plumpton Walsh Ev w36 Cllr Robin Potter Ev w33 Somerset County Council Ev w66 Ray Spalding Ev w80 Staffordshire County Council Ev w12 West Midlands Council Ev w2 Wiltshire Council Ev w25 Workers Educational Association, York Participate Pilot Ev w43

69 Councillors on the frontline 67 List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament The reference number of the Government s response to each Report is printed in brackets after the HC printing number. Session First Report Park Homes HC 177-I (CM 8424) Second Report European Regional Development Fund HC 81 (CM 8389) Third Report The work of the Local Government Ombudsman HC 431 (HC 615 & HC 650) Fourth Report Pre-appointment hearing for the Chair of the Audit HC 553 Commission Fifth Report Mutual and co-operative approaches to delivering local services HC 112 Sixth Report Councillors on the front line HC 432 Seventh Report The Committee s response to the Government s consultation on permitted development rights for homeowners HC 830 Session First Special Report Beyond Decent Homes: Government response to the Committee s Fourth Report of Session HC 746 First Report Local Authority Publications HC 666 (HC 834) Second Special Report Local Authority Publications: Government response to HC 834 the Committee s Sixth Report of Session Second Report Abolition of Regional Spatial Strategies: a planning HC 517 (CM 8103) vacuum? Third Special Report FiReControl: Government response to the HC 835 Committee s Fifth Report of Session Third Report Localism HC 547 (CM 8183) Fourth Report Audit and inspection of local authorities HC 763 (CM 8209) Fifth Report Localisation issues in welfare reform HC 1406 (CM 8272) Sixth Report Regeneration HC 1014 (CM 8264) Seventh Report Pre-appointment hearing for the Government s preferred nominee for Chair of the Homes and Communities Agency Regulation Committee HC 1612 Eighth Report The National Planning Policy Framework HC 1526 (CM 8322) Ninth Report Taking forward Community Budgets HC 1750 Tenth Report Building regulations applying to electrical and gas installation and repairs in dwellings Fourth Special Report Preventing violent extremism: Government response to the Committee s Sixth Report of Session HC 1851 (CM 8369) HC 1951 Eleventh Report Financing of new housing supply HC 1652 (CM 8401)

70

71 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Communities and Local Government Committee on Monday 2 July 2012 Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair) Heidi Alexander Bob Blackman Simon Danczuk Bill Esterson Stephen Gilbert David Heyes George Hollingbery James Morris Mark Pawsey Heather Wheeler Examination of Witness Witness: Dame Jane Roberts, former Chair of the Councillors Commission, gave evidence. Chair: If we can start the first session of our inquiry into councillors and the community, before we begin with our first witness Dame Jane Roberts, you are very welcome to the Committee all the MPs round this table have been councillors previously. We probably ought to declare our current connections to councillors and council work. I am a vice president of the Local Government Association. We will just go round the table. Perhaps other members with a particular interest to declare could do so. Simon Danczuk: My wife is a councillor. David Heyes: I m clean. Heidi Alexander: I am a vice president of the LGA. Bill Esterson: My wife is a town councillor. Stephen Gilbert: My mother is a Cornwall councillor. Heather Wheeler: My husband is leader of a council, and I am vice president of the LGA. Mark Pawsey: I have nothing to add. Q1 Chair: Jane, for the sake of our record, right at the beginning could you introduce yourself? Say who you are and the organisation you represent. Dame Jane Roberts: I am Jane Roberts. I was a former leader of a council, and I chaired the Councillors Commission from 2007 to Q2 Chair: You are very welcome, and thank you for coming. It is with the Councillors Commission that we would like to start. It is a very appropriate place for our inquiry, because you had a long and detailed look at some of the issues that are now being considered by the Committee. Could you tell us, as an overview, what are the key things you recommended that have been adopted since the commission, and what are the key things you recommended that have not yet been taken on board that you would like to see implemented? Dame Jane Roberts: Could I put this in context? The report of the Councillors Commission was published at the end of We met again just over a year later, in April 2009, to review progress. Since that time there have been many changes in the Local Government Association and in the leadership and control of councils, and particularly a change in government. I do not think I am the right person to talk about 2012 and what changes have taken place in the last year or two, but more broadly, and more importantly, I would like to frame it in a much wider context, if I may. Chair: Yes, of course. Dame Jane Roberts: You will probably know that the remit of the Councillors Commission was set up by the then Secretary of State, Ruth Kelly, and subsequently Hazel Blears. Our remit was to look at the incentives that encourage and the barriers that deter people from putting themselves forward as councillors; to get more what were rather coyly called suitably able and representative people to put themselves forward; and how to get more public recognition and value for the work councillors do. We could have plunged straight into matters of training, support and remuneration and all those sorts of things, which are important don t get me wrong but we thought we had to look more broadly, if we were going to come up with sensible recommendations, at the role of the councillor at the beginning of the 21st century. As we were looking into the role of the councillor we had to step back further still at the wider canvas to look at local democratic systems more generally and what changes there had been over the course of the last few decades, because that wider strategic context had to inform the studies we took on board. At the end of the day, the Councillors Commission was a very comprehensive piece of work, but other reports came out from the LGIU; Lord Richard Best; Ed Cox and Saffron James; the Joseph Rowntree Foundation; and the Local Government Network put one out a little after that. The all-party parliamentary group had also commissioned a report. There was a slew of reports on the back of the Lyons inquiry that also reported in Certainly, some of the thinking in the Lyons inquiry influenced us. We were a smaller subset, but we had influence on some of the things Sir Michael Lyons also reported. That was the background. In that context, we came forward with 61 recommendations. What I would like to stress more importantly than individual recommendations are the principles we laid down. If I may take some of your time to go through those five principles, in my view I think my fellow commissioners would agree with

72 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 2 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts this they were as important as the specific recommendations we made. Would it be okay if I did that? Chair: Yes. Dame Jane Roberts: They are not very long. The first of the five principles was that local authorities are key to promoting local democratic engagement. That was essentially the meat of our recommendation 1. You might think those are warm words, apple pie and motherhood. I can talk much more about that. We were very clear about what that meant in practice. Local authorities were key to promoting local democracy, essentially. Secondly, promoting a sense of efficacy ie the feeling that an individual is able to influence the democratic process and the course of events is key to better engagement. It is a sense of agency and that something will happen if I press a button. Thirdly, councils are most effective as locally elected representatives when they have life experiences similar to those of their constituents. Clearly, they are not identical. As MPs you will know that; you represent many different people, but we thought it a really important principle that you have a sense of and share some of those experiences. Fourthly, key to effective local representation is the relationship with and connections between councillors and their constituents. Lastly, it should be less daunting to become a councillor. A councillor should be better supported once elected, and to stop being a councillor should be less daunting. The word we first used was risk, but we thought that might frighten the horses, so the word daunting was used instead. They are the five principles that, in my view, would hold for all elected representatives at whatever level of governance, but obviously that was outside our remit. Our remit was local councillors. It is important to frame it. You are asking me where we are now. I do not think there is wide acceptance of those principles. I suppose we were trying to say that, if you are going to look at the role of councillors and local government, you need to see, as Sir Michael Lyons talked about, that single system of government. How does it all fit together? Frankly, at the moment it is all a bit of a hotchpotch. Most people do not have the faintest idea who does what. What does a councillor do? What does an MP do? What does a non-executive director of what was a PCT do? People do not have the faintest idea how all this works, and you cannot begin to get people involved, engaged and participating if they do not understand what they are being asked to engage in. That is a real problem. Our recommendation 1 was absolutely key and was fleshing out how we thought local authorities could give effect to promoting local democratic engagement. In our 61 recommendations we were so keen not to have lots of new national prescription and statutory duties here, there and everywhere, because I ve been there and done that; I know it is the last thing councillors want. We did think that there should be one new statutory duty to promote local democratic engagement. I can talk more about that, because it was not just warm words, apple pie and motherhood. There were four tiers. Would it be helpful if I explained? The first tier was simply that local authorities, not just councillors, as institutions in their patch should communicate effectively with people about how local governance works. Who does what? Who is responsible for what? If your local police station has closed, what can you do about that? It is a kind of jigsaw. There is a lot of information out there, particularly now with the social media, the net and all the rest of it, but it is very fragmented. It is very unclear how it all joins up at a local level. The first wrung of promoting local democracy was simply about making as widely known and as comprehensible and understandable as possible who does what, why and how, and who is accountable to whom for what. The second thing was to promote people getting involved at a local level, whether it is a tenants association, school governors, friends of a local park, tree wardens, whatever you have in your patch, so it is made easier for people to know how to get involved. They could dip their toe in the water. Professor John Stewart, whom I am sure you know well, says that if people get involved a bit they get more interested and are likely to get further involved, so it is about making it easier to take the first wrung. Thirdly, it is about making it much clearer and accessible how to become a councillor. It has been, and remains to some extent, quite a well-hidden secret. When I had a conversation with the late Simon Milton, who was chair of the LGA, he ruefully reflected on the fact that at the time I know it has changed since even the LGA on their website had no information about how to become a councillor and what councillors did. To be fair, that has changed. That was the third wrung. The fourth wrung is that, once people do become councillors, they should be far better supported than is often the case in many local authorities. It should be easier to become a councillor; you should be far better supported once you are there, but also it should be less risky to stop being a councillor. They were the four parts of recommendation 1. While we said we thought there should be a new statutory duty, we were very non-prescriptive about how local authorities in a detailed way would take that forward, because clearly there would be different and more effective ways of doing that in Somerset, Northumberland and Camden. That was accepted by the Secretary of State at the time and incorporated into the White Paper Communities in Control at the time. It went into legislation and received Royal Assent. It was not implemented in 2010, and I believe it has now been repealed. Q3 Bill Esterson: On the issue of councillors representing communities, you have said things about Operation Black Vote and the Fawcett Society. Can you say a bit more about how that could come about, and perhaps also comment on socio-economic background and age as part of the issue of diversity? Dame Jane Roberts: We used Operation Black Vote and the Fawcett Society as examples very much in the context of seeking to get better representation by people from black and minority ethnic communities and women. People will do that in different ways. We use those as examples of organisations that have been, and could continue to be, really helpful in any particular local patch. Operation Black Vote worked

73 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 3 2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts in Bristol; it has worked in many different places, hasn t it? We were not saying you should use these organisations. It was an example of where some local authorities had used those organisations and it had been helpful. It was a mixture of saying to local government, You guys mainly, they are guys need to do better in terms of black representation; there need to be more women and people from minority ethnic groups. We know in terms of socioeconomic background there have been big changes. Looking at the report, we know that if you look at the education qualifications of councillors they are considerably higher than those of the general population. I am sure that is true for MPs as well. If you look at those who come from a working-class or trade union background, there have been big changes over a period of time. If you are concerned, as I am in, democratic engagement across the board national, European and local government you should be very concerned at what has increasingly become a political class, which has always been there to an extent, that looks and talks very differently from those whom they represent. I know it will never be exactly the same, but there is an increasing divergence. That seems to be a bit of a problem, particularly at local level; if you want people to get involved, it is at the local level where they might first get most interested: their children s school and the local park. If you are worried about democratic engagement across the board, surely we should look to people s involvement at a local level as a key link. We talked about the key link in the chain of governance. That is where people get their first experience and see how things work, such that it makes sense. For most people, these things just do not make sense. There is a group of people over there, mostly in London, who do things about which we have no idea. I know you all work very hard. It is not that people do not work and try very hard. It is about having more people like us out there representing us and doing things on our behalf. Q4 Bill Esterson: To what extent do you think councillors are reflective of the people who are members of political parties? What is the role of parties in attracting a wider range, assuming you accept the premise of what I have said? Dame Jane Roberts: The first question was: are councillors different from those in parties? Q5 Bill Esterson: Are they representative of the sorts of people who are in political parties? Dame Jane Roberts: I am sure from your own experience, you will always get that. Only 1% of the population or has it fallen further are members of a political party? It is tiny. We know that in areas where political parties are not very large or active you can get both councillors and MPs selected by single figures, or just into double figures. Obviously, those people will be the most interested, active and well organised by and large, but incumbency counts for a lot. In many places, once you have been selected as a councillor, it is very easy to remain selected for a very long period of time. Q6 Bill Esterson: How do you deal with that tendency to stay in power? Dame Jane Roberts: It is a very interesting question. Ultimately, it is a matter of culture. Q7 Bill Esterson: How much of a problem is it? Dame Jane Roberts: We commissioned a lot of research on some of this. If you look at the pattern, there is a bit of a split. There are numbers of people who become councillors for one term and then stand down. There is a disproportionate percentage of women and people from black minority communities I forgot you asked about age, which I will come back to who are in the group who stand down. There are quite a lot of people who stay for a very long period of time. To go back to your question about age, when we were doing our research the average was 57 and then it went up to 58. Your research now shows it has gone up further still and the average age is 60, so it is white middle-aged men aged 60. I do think that is a problem. Interestingly, in London and in some other places that has changed. We gave examples outside Reigate and Banstead and a number of other places. There were three chunks of research. The third chunk of research was to look at five authorities that had a particularly good record of broadening that out. The political parties did that, but mostly one or two key people were determined to change things at a local level and brought change about, which was why I got to the point of thinking and saying, and I repeat now, that all these things are not that difficult. If you really want to change things and implement a whole heap of recommendations, it is not very difficult. What is really difficult is having the political will to change it, because at an institutional level I do not think people are really that interested in change. Q8 Bill Esterson: Should we be focusing on the ability of potential councillors, or the diversity? Dame Jane Roberts: You are presenting them as though they are mutually exclusive, and I do not think they are necessarily. You are implying that diversity is a sort of mechanistic head count. Perhaps I am putting words into your mouth. It depends on what you mean by ability. What makes a good councillor? What you are looking at is a balance of skills across all the councillors. You want to get a mix both of your population and of different skills across the council as a whole. The key ability is to engage and listen properly, not just pay lip service, but some councillors will have come from a community activist background, will want to remain there and spend most of their time on scrutiny. There will be others with a much more strategic sense who want to change things at a leadership level. They will have to communicate well. There is a whole range of skills that councillors need. You will not get all of that wrapped up in one person, but you might ideally see it reflected across the council as a whole. I would say in response that you need both, and I do not think they are necessarily mutually exclusive. Q9 Heidi Alexander: I am interested in the proposals that your commission put forward about having a

74 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 4 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts defined role for the councillor that could be adapted locally. Can you say something about the thinking that lay behind that role description, and what purpose you think it would serve? Dame Jane Roberts: It was connected with the issue that I keep going back to: people have no idea how things work, and about who councillors are and what they do. I may be a bit out of date, but if a couple of years ago you had looked at most councils websites they would have given very little idea of what councillors did. It was an attempt to help councils, councillors and the wider general public to understand what councillors did so they had some idea. I have lost count of the number of times it may well be your experience as well that people just assume you do this full time. Most councillors do not, and in my view should not. The idea of the role description was to be there as a suggestion. We were trying so hard not to be too prescriptive with lots of must dos. This was a role description that had been drawn up; it was one of a number that seemed very useful. A number of local authorities had adopted it. It gives you some idea in terms of people who are aspiring to be councils and the general public, and, once you are there, it gives guidance in terms of induction and training. It can be used in many different ways. I think it was taken up. Q10 Heidi Alexander: Would you write the same role description today if you were reporting from the commission, given some of the changes that are coming through from Government with regard to the localism agenda? Do you see the role of the councillor changing? Dame Jane Roberts: I think the general principles we have talked about as regards the role of the councillor hold true. The role description has a number of different facets, but essentially we were saying the general principles held true. We talked about councillors being two-way translators, bringing the voices of the different communities that they represent into the council to inform the decision-making process, and similarly making sense of and explaining the decisions that have been taken in the council to constituents, employers, partners and all the rest of it. I think that still holds. That was why we talked about the importance of communication skills, connecting people with the institutions of governance. That still holds. Things change, even in the period of time since our final report. Twitter did not exist at that point. The internet certainly did. We talked about training, induction and all the rest of it to exploit all the opportunities in the social media. There are changes of that sort at a more operational level, but in terms of the localism agenda I think the bigger question, which I referred to at the end of my written submission but which we did not talk about in the Councillors Commission per se, is to think more broadly about what councillors do, what leaders of councils do, what directly-elected mayors do, what MPs do and what MEPs do. Do they all meet? Do they talk? In some places they might; in lots of places they do not. If one is saying that the role of a directlyelected mayor or council leader is about place shaping, which is a phrase that I like talking about maximising the wellbeing of a place what is the relationship among the leader, directly-elected mayor and MP? We have to think through all of those things. As to the localism agenda per se, all national governments, whether or not they use the term localism over the course of the period of time, have used that rhetoric, but, as Professor Travers has shown, over the course of the last century increasingly the agenda in today s parlance has become less and less localist, certainly in terms of powers and funding. When I looked at the DCLG website very recently, it talked about having a strategic view. Then it said, What do we do? and it said, Weekly bin collections. Q11 Heidi Alexander: You talked about the role of the councillor as being like a two-way conduit between the public and the council officers who speak a foreign language half the time. In your report, you talked about officers having a lack of understanding of the political dynamics within an authority and the political pressures upon locally elected representatives. Why did you say that? Is there a body of evidence out there that you felt justified that statement? Dame Jane Roberts: I cannot quote it, but there was at the very least anecdotal evidence. When I was leader I remember being asked to speak to groups of civil servants at a course organised by a firm of recruiters to officers at tier 3 and tier 4 because there was a great demand. I cannot quote the evidence, but it is my own personal experience as well. It was reinforced: when there was a change in the political management arrangements between executive and scrutiny the contact that officers had with councillors was much less, certainly below the director and AD level. With the best will in the world, any good local authority should recognise that and help with training so that people do understand, and it works both ways. If, for example, you come in as a professional social worker, part of your social work training is not how councillors or how local government work. It is very easy for councillors to assume that local government officers know how it works. I think there is a meeting of minds. I did not clock that for a while. I think the chief executive at the time and I had a big meeting with large numbers of staff and a question was asked. I cannot now remember what the question was, but it clearly revealed that the person asking it had no idea how councillors worked, but why would they? All of us have some responsibility to recognise that and take steps to do something different. Q12 Stephen Gilbert: Back in 1998 I was in the unusual position it is probably still the case of being the country s youngest councillor at 21 on a district authority in Cornwall. I was also the only member out of 50 or so who had a job. When you talk about principle 3 the need for the councillor cohort to reflect the population it strikes me that one of the biggest inconsistencies in that is that most councillors in the country do not work; most people in the country do. How do we make it easier for people who have jobs to be councillors?

75 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 5 2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts Dame Jane Roberts: I strongly agree with that. Your record was probably beaten. Somebody in Somerset was elected at the age of 19. You are absolutely right, and it is a really big problem. The problem is that, if you are in a position where many councillors do not work, the council will be organised in such a way that it is for the convenience of those who do not work. I had a conversation with a unitary authority, whose name I will not reveal, most of whose members were not working. All the meetings were held in the day. There are choices to be made. You can organise a council in such a way that that does not have to be the case. The response was, Most of our members are getting on; they are too tired by the end of the afternoon. You need a balance of older people and younger people. If so, you have to organise the council in such a way that it is possible to have a balance. When I was leader and we had events where councillors from all three main political parties were speaking, I made a point to say, If you want to be a backbench councillor, it is important we make it possible for you to do this on a limited amount of time. We happened to have meetings in the evening. I appreciate that if you are in Lincolnshire County Council, for example, you have a huge number of miles to travel, which is why you should not be prescriptive, but you could have meetings at different times. Even Camden would not do this. When I was chair of the education committee I said, Why don t we move the time from seven o clock to 4.30? We can get some of the teachers who have just come out of school, parents and sixth-formers. The response was, Ah! Not all meetings have to be at the same time; they could be at different times; you could change them. You have a fixed time to finish; you have succinct agendas; you have proper support and IT. All sorts of ways, which we talk about in this report, would make it possible. If people are currently doing it full time, there is no incentive to do it in any other way. Q13 Stephen Gilbert: The issue is the intransigence of incumbents to want change that you have referred to already. Can I pick up on what you said about support? I do not think that any of us could do our jobs effectively if we did not have the professional support we have got, and yet we expect councillors, in the case of Cornwall with a budget of over 1 billion a year, to do it without professional support. Is there a role for providing secretarial support to councillors? Dame Jane Roberts: Absolutely. It is antediluvian. To be a councillor and representative of a local place is the embodiment of place. In this day and age, geographical place is still hugely important for us all, and local government is the embodiment of that. These are important roles that need to be properly supported to argue the case, which is partly why we talked about national minimum standards. It is quite difficult because it is seen as feathering the nest ; similarly with the national framework for allowances, but they should be properly supported, whether it is council surgeries, case work, diary management, research, ward or division information, whatever it might be. Of course there should be proper support. Q14 Stephen Gilbert: Leading neatly on from that, one of the things I have struggled with, looking at some of your conclusions, is that you favour the multi-member ward system. I have got experience of both having served in an authority in Cornwall and the London Borough of Haringey, which had a multimember system. When you talk about the two-way translator and the sense of place being so important, surely that is best articulated by one person representing an area rather than three, or not. Dame Jane Roberts: I have had this discussion. Every MP I speak to always says that, partly because, I guess, there is one MP per constituency, and for very understandable and creditable reasons. There is a great sense of identity. MPs say, It is my constituency; it is my place. I understand and respect that. I have been a councillor in only one authority, but in two wards. We did come down strongly in favour of multimember wards for a number of different reasons, which I can go into, but I do not see why the fact there are two others of you means there is not that strong attachment to the ward. It means you have to make sure that constituents understand that there are three and who they are, but there are lots of advantages to that. It means, for example, that you can have a spread of people of different backgrounds, genders and skills. There were times when someone would come to one of my surgeries and say, It would be really useful if you speak to X because they ve had experience. For all sorts of reasons, it is much more sensible to have a multi-member ward. For example, I had a baby when I was a councillor. It meant it was possible for one of my co-ward councillors to do surgeries for a month, so I did not have to do it. It is all a bit of a juggling act, and in a way it has to be. That is not a bad thing, but you have to make it possible. I think that one of the advantages, as well as having diversity and a balance of skills, is that it makes it more possible to juggle things in that way. I do not buy the idea that you cannot have a sense of attachment to place on that basis. Q15 Stephen Gilbert: In terms of juggling and looking at it from the employer s perspective, if an employee wanted to go off and become a councillor, to address that balance of working people on councils there are risks for the employee in terms of how the employer is going to react, and there are risks for the employer in terms of having a member of staff who is not around all the time and the unpredictability that leads to. In your report you talk about a financial compensation scheme for businesses. Do you think that is feasible in the economic climate we are in? If that is not feasible, what other things can we do to minimise the downside for working people in relation to their employers? Dame Jane Roberts: They are really well-made points, and there is a big section here about employers. I would start off by saying that there are risks but there are advantages also to employers. When we went into it in a bit more detail there was the well-known example of Rolls-Royce, but a survey was done at the same time. We had a good conversation with the Institute of Directors who did a

76 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 6 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts survey at the time, because most businesses are smalland medium-sized enterprises. For them, if you have three or four employees it is a whole different ball game compared with Rolls-Royce or BT. Even with smaller employers, particularly around place, there are real advantages. Is this financial compensation scheme viable in the current austere times? The truth is probably not. But we did not even think that was the most important thing; we thought the most important thing was the nature of the relationship with the employer. When I look back now, as leader I worked very hard to engage local businesses in all sorts of ways. It never occurred to me at the time I say this with some chagrin to talk to them about their employees standing as councillors and the advantages. It just did not occur to me. We had really good relationships with them. That was a bit of a lesson. It is about engaging with local employers, which you would want to be doing anyway, whether it is about the economy, jobs, schools or education, but also talking about some of the advantages. We talked to lots of employers. There was a chunk of employers who would not be keen on their employees becoming councillors, but I was surprised that a sizeable chunk were very prepared to think about more flexible or part-time working. Most of them did not have HR policies to cover that, but really would like to. One of our recommendations was that there could be some sort of template and information to employers about being much more proactive in the nature of the relationship, obviously if the councillor wants it because there are some councillors who do not tell their employers. We respect that. But there are others where there are letters saying, Thank you from the local authority. There are all sorts of ways, but at the moment employers are a bit like the general public: by and large they have no idea what councillors do. Q16 Heather Wheeler: On the point about Rolls- Royce, there are two South Derbyshire district councillors who are Rolls-Royce employees. We are very grateful for the community involvement that they give us day in and day out. I am interested in the level of support and training that councillors need to enable them to do their job. I think you have pretty much suggested that it is patchy, to say the least. Do you think a bit of it is because some councillors do not want to take up the training, not just that the councils are a bit useless at offering it sometimes? Dame Jane Roberts: Sometimes that is the case. What we recommended was a quid pro quo. There should be training but an explicit expectation that it is taken up, so absolutely yes. Q17 Heather Wheeler: That is interesting. You have already given your views on the lack of administrative support for councillors, but I wonder whether this fits in slightly with the benefits of having a national framework for members allowances, or whether it ought to be dealt with locally, because in effect they are a sort of employee but they could be selfemployed and could have their own secretarial support. What do you feel about that? Dame Jane Roberts: What we were suggesting was a national framework, not national prescription. The reasoning for that you will know this from your experience as MPs and councillors is that it is very difficult to raise allowances for councillors. We came across shocking examples. The average at the time was 5,000 a year and for leaders it was 16,000. If you look at any other cases, whether it is non-exec directors of all sorts, it is really shocking, but it is very difficult to do that. The idea of a framework was simply to have suggestions that varied by the type and size of authority. There would be plenty of room for decisions to be made. If local authorities wanted to set up their own independent panel, it did not preclude them from doing that. It was there as a national framework to be used to make it a bit easier, especially for those local authorities where allowances are pitifully low, to do something about that. Q18 Mark Pawsey: It must be very interesting to you to see us covering much of the same ground you covered only five years or so ago. Do you think there is an inevitability that we will end up with broadly the same conclusions that you did: that there is not much point in looking at the role of the councillor without having a broader review of how the democratic system works in this country? Do you think we are going to be able to concentrate just on the individuals who are responsible at a local level, or do you think we are going to get dragged into the broader debate that you referred to? Dame Jane Roberts: I would argue that you should get drawn into the broader debate. I have not mentioned it here, but we argue throughout the report that part of the issue is about the perception of local government and of councillors. I am not evangelical by nature but I am an evangelist for local government. I am no longer a councillor. I think it is hugely undersung and undervalued, but I am in a minority of 0.05%, or whatever it might be. That is not the general perception; it is not the general perception in Whitehall, in Government, in the media or out there. At the same time, all the changes that have come about lack of trust and lack of engagement at all tiers of governance are becoming a greater problem. There is only so much Whitehall can do about that. You have to see local government as part of the solution, not part of the problem. This is not a partypolitical statement. The previous Government introduced a paper on the governance of Britain that did not talk about local government. The current Government refer to localism but talk about weekly bin collections. It is a real problem we have to grasp. I think it is an issue about the powers of local government and about finance; it is an issue about perception. Unless you tackle all of those and see that local government is potentially an important part of the solution to the democratic malaise, we will not go anywhere; we just go round and round in circles. You will not get people standing who are more widely representative and able councillors because, while the perception is that it is for also-rans, why would you do that?

77 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 7 2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts Q19 Mark Pawsey: How would you increase knowledge of local democracy, particularly given that there are different systems in different areas for perfectly good reasons? In some areas there can be as many as five people responsible for the delivery of services. How would you make sure people are better informed? Dame Jane Roberts: I would adopt all 61 recommendations of our report. You would not have to do 61, but certainly 55. There were one or two that were put in to be provocative, and they were. It is at all levels, isn t it? But, ultimately, that is why recommendation 1 in my view was the key one. The local authority was to be the key in saying, These are the conditions that obtain in our patch, South Derbyshire; these are the people, institutions and the way these things work. You could really make a push in South Derbyshire, but at the very least you need to do much more in terms of schools and citizenship. Citizenship is seen as being a bit of a doss. Lewisham had a fantastic scheme; it had a young mayor, and, as we quote in here, it had a 45% turnout, which was higher than in the local elections. Most young people have no idea who councillors are and what they do. You have got to start at that level. There is a whole range of different things you can do. All of us might know what a county, a district, a parish or a town is, but in many parts of the country when you talk about local government it is bewildering to people. We did not advocate this; I advocated it we were very diplomatic in this. Unitary authorities make a whole heap of sense because there is one authority. People have talked about three different tiers of government might be responsible for one roundabout. It is bonkers, and then we expect people to understand and engage. Then we talked about multi-member wards and making these tiers more clear, but it is very baffling. Some places do all-out elections; some do it in thirds. You never know quite who you are voting for, where and how. Wouldn t it make more sense to have a local election day? Do it by region, not on a super Tuesday as in the States. Have local elections in that region. You would have a real razzmatazz about it. In some places on local election day, there is nothing there. I tried to do more of this in Camden. Make it much more of a razzmatazz, whether it is through schools. There are all sort of things you can do. Now with the social media there is a huge amount more you can do, but if you did it in one time in one go by region you could have a good local debate. There are all sorts of things you can do. Q20 Mark Pawsey: How confident are you that if the recommendations you made a few years ago were implemented we would achieve the objectives we are all looking to see in terms of age and socio-economic profile of councillors moving forward? Will that do the trick? Dame Jane Roberts: The evidence is very clear that if people want to make change there are places where key people want to make change they can do so. The issue is the political will to do so. Q21 Simon Danczuk: There is one thing we have not discussed. Is not a big part of the equation the culture within local political parties? Is that not a big factor in all of this? Dame Jane Roberts: It is indeed. There is so much to talk about. It is a bit of a problem, but we live in a complex world. There is no one magic bullet, so, yes, absolutely. The political parties are key to all of this. There is a lot of evidence that it is much more difficult to get selected than to get elected, so the political parties are absolutely key to this. There is a problem in some parties in some places not everywhere that I witnessed. Where things have changed the political parties have done it, but in other places it is too inward-looking. Bright new things do not get training; they are suppressed; they are a threat to the leadership. We have to face that head on. Chair: Thank you very much indeed for talking to us about the Councillors Commission and quite a few other issues as well. That is a very helpful start to our inquiry. Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Professor Colin Copus, Professor of Local Politics, De Montfort University, Liz Richardson, Research Fellow, University of Manchester, and Professor Michael Thrasher, Professor of Politics, Plymouth University, gave evidence. Q22 Chair: Good afternoon and welcome to the first evidence session in our inquiry into councillors and the community. For the sake of our records, could you say who you are and the organisation you represent? That would be a helpful start. Liz Richardson: My name is Liz Richardson and I work for the University of Manchester. Professor Thrasher: I am Michael Thrasher from the elections centre at Plymouth University. Professor Copus: I am Colin Copus from the Local Government Research Unit at De Montfort University. Q23 Chair: Thank you for coming and for the evidence you have supplied so far. Let me begin by asking Professor Thrasher if he could say a little about the survey he has done on the characteristics of those standing at local elections. Just give us the main findings to kick off our session. Professor Thrasher: It struck us some years ago that there were a lot of surveys of councillors, but not of the candidates. We knew a fair amount about the people who stood and won in local elections but not those who stood and failed to win. We began a national survey in 2006 of England and Wales, and we have been carrying out that survey ever since. We randomly select candidates from the nomination lists published by local authorities. We used to send a postal questionnaire. In 2011 and 2012, the survey has

78 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 8 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher been conducted online. Essentially, the findings from the 2012 survey, which I sent to this Committee, are broadly in line with surveys undertaken both by post and, last year, online. The broad picture is that the people who stand for local election are very similar to those who sit on the local council benches. There is not a notion or understanding that if only these people would resign and stand aside, or the electorate would get rid of them at the ballot box, we would have a brand new set of local councillors, so in the sense that local government is often characterised as male, pale and stale in other words, it is dominated by men and largely older white people that is also true of candidates. The only difference is that candidates are slightly more likely to be women, but only slightly so; they are slightly younger, but then you would expect that because they have not sat on the council benches for four years, and they are just as white as the councillors. It really drove home to us that, no matter what happened in terms of the ballot box, local government was not going to change. What we were also trying to do was find out why people stood for local council election; who they were; and what motivated them to stand in the first place. For some of the questions we asked we now have five or six years of data to support. Sometimes we ask questions that are, if you like, contemporary in nature. For example, this year, for obvious reasons, we asked the candidates (just to remind ourselves, the candidates are local party activists by and large, so this is really a window into the soul of local parties and how they are thinking) we asked them questions about whether they approved of directly elected mayors. No. Did they approve of elected justices of the peace? No. Did they approve of police and crime commissioners? No. Did they approve of referendums? Yes. That surprised me somewhat. Did they approve of recall elections? In other words, if councillors are found to have been at fault, can we call them to account rather like they do in California and elsewhere, and have another election? They are in favour of that. The questions vary: some are repeated, so we have rather good documentary evidence now about their attitudes, and there are other questions that occur for just one particular year. Q24 Chair: We now have questions for all the panel. If, as we go through it, there is something one of your colleagues says that you agree with, just tell us that you agree with it. That is absolutely fine, and we can get through more questions that way. Is it important that we try to encourage more people from underrepresented groups to stand? Who should be doing that? Is it mainly a role for the parties? Should councillors themselves be a bit concerned about getting into that sort of territory where they get involved in encouraging people to stand? Liz Richardson: There is not necessarily very full evidence about the argument that a more diverse group of members would change policy outcomes or guarantee a better representation of interests, although that is the idea. The jury is out on that one. It also puts candidates in a tricky position. When we talked to candidates they said, It means either that is the only thing I can talk about or the one thing I just can t talk about because it pigeonholes me. The main reason you would want to try to increase the diversity of representation is to do with reputation. Jane Roberts talked about the perception of the reputation of the democratic system. It looks really bad, and it is symptomatic of the lack of openness of the candidate selection system, the lack of active recruitment from parties, and occasionally bad attitudes towards candidates. Insofar as it is symptomatic of all these bad things, it is a good thing to push parties on. Dame Jane Roberts already mentioned the research we did. We did five case studies of places that slightly bucked the trend 1 and did better. Parties were doing brilliant things: they were fast-tracking; talent-scouting; mentoring; advertising for non-party members who agreed broadly with the ideology; and they were using apprenticeships, but the gap was in the role for officers and councils more broadly. Our work was one of the studies cited in support of the creation of the duty to promote democracy. I was really happy about that but it was a bit of a damp squib, which was a real shame. I do not think it was repealed because it was necessarily a bad idea but partly because the current Administration prefers the idea of community rights than duties on public bodies. Duties just are not very popular at the moment. The role for the authority in promoting democracy to increase representation and diversity is a key gap. Professor Copus: I would add a note of scepticism. We have to ask the big question that Jane Roberts talked about: what is the role of the councillor? In much the same way, we have to ask the question: what the role of local government? Without asking and answering that question, it is very difficult to start to talk about reforms of systems and the composition of councils. One of my worries is what this does to the system of representative democracy as we understand it at the moment. If we are looking to increase diversity among the councillor population, what is the expectation on councillors who are elected? Are they expected, as under the system at the moment, to be representative of their entire community, or will they come under pressure to represent just parts of that community? That is the danger. In some of the work I have done among councillors from ethnic groups, they admit they come under pressure to take up issues that are very specific to those communities, but they are quite resentful of that. Many argue that they are not there simply to represent one part of a community. Most councillors subscribe to what I call the Burkean approach to representation: generally, they are here to represent the interests of the community. There is a real question about what would the increased diversity bring. It may bring what Liz referred to: just not looking so bad. Political parties are responsible not only for recruiting campaigns but the way in which politics in local government is conducted. I have come to the conclusion that, even if you radically changed the composition of council chambers, without doing something about the way in which political parties 1 This research refers to case studies of local authorities with higher than average levels of diversity in representation of local councillors.

79 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 9 2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher conducted the business of local government, you would not get much difference anyway, along the lines that you were finding by certain people winning rather than losing. Q25 Chair: Why is that? Professor Copus: To give an example, the disciplinary mechanisms of political party groups in local government are often far more rigid than those you would experience as Members of Parliament. There are not one-, two- and three-line whips; if there are, that is an unusual process in local government. Q26 Bob Blackman: I totally disagree with you. Professor Copus: All I can tell you from the conclusions of my work is that, if you meet in private and make a decision and councillors are bound by it, there are fewer opportunities for people to be able to have the sort of public debates you would expect from a more diverse councillor community. Q27 Chair: Let me challenge you on that. If the debate inside private meetings is between a different group of people, and there are more young people, women and people from ethnic minorities at those meetings, surely you have a greater chance of influencing their outcome which then carries through into the public arena. Professor Copus: You may well do, but, if a group is still controlled by a white male middle-aged population, the likelihood of increased numbers changing that is contestable. Q28 Bob Blackman: Can I ask all three witnesses a question? You have identified a problem, which I can understand, about increasing the diversity. What do you think in your survey and evidence is the barrier to that selection process? Is it the local political party? Is it the attitude of certain individuals? Is it the community which says, There s no point. Don t even bother? Liz Richardson: One of the big things we found was that the parties are trying to second-guess what voters will stand. When they do that, they second-guess the electorate to be more conservative. It is difficult to say; we do not know because people do not get put into winnable seats. 2 Q29 Bob Blackman: Are you seriously suggesting the political parties are saying that people are more likely to vote for white males rather than women, for example? Liz Richardson: That is what we are saying based on evidence from talking to candidates and potential candidates. Q30 Bob Blackman: In areas of high ethnic minorities, parties would rather have white males than representatives of those local communities,which might be quite substantial communities? 2 This research refers to candidates and potential candidates for election to national political institutions, rather than local councillors. (Research papers supplied to the Committee not published with this report.) Liz Richardson: Where there are, for example, large minority ethnic populations parties are happier to put in minority ethnic candidates because they see that as a no brainer, but diversity candidates, if you want to call them that, are more likely to get no hope seats than winnable seats in other situations, because parties think that the electorate will not stand for someone who looks different. That is a very crude summary, sorry. Q31 Bob Blackman: I invite you to come to my borough and do a survey, because you will find it is completely different. In my experience, most parts of London are completely different from the world you are describing. It may be true in other parts of the country that this is a problem, but my experience of London politics is completely different from that and from what we have heard from the rest of the panel. We want to hear clear evidence. I am concerned that the evidence we are hearing so far is not the world that I inhabit. Liz Richardson: I could send you and colleagues a breakdown of the last elections, if you want. Professor Thrasher: When we ask people what motivated them to stand in the first place and whether they themselves decided, I can do this? four in 10 say, I made the decision myself. The remaining six were asked to stand. That immediately tells you that in the majority of cases people are asked to stand. We asked those people who decided to stand what the biggest reason was. They said, I can make a difference. That is in their mindset. As to those people who were asked to stand, they were asked mostly by a fellow party member or sitting councillor, so it is an informal network within parties. That really is the nub of the problem, inasmuch as if the party networks are circumscribed, in that the party members are talking to fellow party member who are largely male, white and older, you have to break outside those networks. We ask candidates, Why do you think certain groups women, ethnic minorities or young people are under-represented on councils? The answers are different; there is no one size explanation that fits all the problems. In respect of women, they talk about family commitments and the problem of balancing all these kinds of resource issues. In the case of ethnic minorities, interestingly enough, because most of our respondents are white, many of the responses are neutral. They do not have a strong opinion one way or the other that it is a problem of too few people coming forward, or a problem of families. They prefer to sit on the fence, perhaps rightly so, because they do not know what the explanation for that is. In terms of younger people, they say they are not interested in politics and too few come forward. If one were looking for solutions to a problem, quite definitely they all feel that local authorities are not in the business of recruiting candidates for local elections. It is not the job of local authorities to do that. By all means, publicise what local authorities do and display how to become a candidate and what the timetable is, but do not try to recruit candidates. That is the job of political parties.

80 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 10 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher Q32 Bill Esterson: To pick up your last answer about why people stand for election, perhaps all three of you can say why people stand again. Liz Richardson: When you ask people why they stand, their explanation is that they feel a strong sense of civic duty. If you are thinking about how you might market or appeal to people in terms of new potential candidates, the idea that you try to do the best for your community is a very strong and powerful one. Another reason people get involved is that they drift into it. As Dame Jane Roberts said earlier, they might start doing one thing and then drift into doing some more stuff and there you are. As Michael says, it has been shown, both in the UK and US, that being asked is a very strong driver. There lots of different forms of civic activity. There is a very large study on that and some very good evidence. Obviously, there is power and self-interest. You cannot discount that; you need a little of that to get going. As to why people stand again, the main issue is why people stand down. We do not know what puts them off and why they stand down. Some authorities are now starting to do exit interviews to try to find out a little more about what put them off. Was it something to do with them or something we did to them? The idea is to find out why people leave rather than why they stay, because why they stay is a little more obvious. Professor Copus: If I may pick up the thread Liz was leading into because that takes me to your question the issue about why parties select whom they select and for which seats is often driven by the realities of politics. If you are involved in politics and putting yourself forward for election, you will want a winnable seat. I remember that the first time I stood for a council I was asked, If we wanted to select somebody from a minority group, would you stand down? My reaction was, Over my dead body. This is a seat I want to fight. The realities of politics are such that, if you are putting yourself forward, you are asking people to make considerable sacrifices by expecting them to step aside to enhance diversity. Those issues need to be considered, because they are also part of the wider picture of why people stand for election in the first place, why they stand again and why they decide to stand down. The conclusion I have been led to is that councillors stand again because there is a sense of an unfinished job. That unfinished job is never finished. They are always confronting a new set of problems; they are always confronting the realities of working very closely and immediately with a community. There is a sense that if you stand down you are letting down a group of people. With the greatest respect to members of this Committee, the lives of councillors are much more immediate to the people they represent. They are on call 24 hours a day. I had one Christmas Day phone call from a constituent. This is not unusual obviously, Christmas Day was. You may be stopped anywhere with inquiries being made about either something very specific or a policy decision taken by the council. That becomes a self-fulfilling motivation for people. The desire to stay engaged with that community is part of the reason why councillors continue to do the job. I have to say they are largely unrecognised and unrewarded, and often vilified for what they do. I just draw your attention to a new programme starting today on BBC television about a corrupt council. I know immediately that councillors will be stopped in the street and told, You re just like that Christopher Eccleston character. This is something that local authority members have to put up with, and they do, and continually seeking re-election becomes almost like a drug. As to the reason members are standing down, there is an awful lot of overseas research. I have not seen any relating to this country, but often it is to do with the professionalisation of politics, and local government in particular, which means the job is transformed into something a member did not originally expect. Could I mention briefly one thing which relates to the question of age more than anything else? The other day I was interviewing a councillor in his early 70s. He had been an elected member for 42 years, which means that when he was elected he was in his early 30s. He was one of those young people we are now seeking to stand. The difficulty is that when you get those young people elected at what time do you dare say to them, You re now too old? That gentleman has given 42 years of his life to serve his community. It is a very difficult nut to crack. Professor Thrasher: Was your question about councillors or candidates? Q33 Bill Esterson: I started with candidates and went on to ask why councillors stand again. Professor Thrasher: The answer to the question is that a lot of councillors do not stand again. They have one shot. They do enjoy it but they do not have another shot at it. More than a third of candidates who stand do so on the basis that they are a paper candidate only. They do not do any campaigning in their own ward, but they will campaign in other wards, so they are helping out the local party. Other people stand because they are the only volunteers. With regard to councillors we did an analysis some years ago. We worked out that the average councillor sits for seven years, which means they probably have one period of re-election and then exit, so they are re-elected once and then exit. They exit either because of the electoral political cycle, which sees them off because they are not sitting in a safe ward, or simply because they have had enough. In our survey we asked the specific question, Why do you think so many councillors stand down after four years? Most people answered that the job was too time-consuming. Q34 Bill Esterson: Colin, earlier you touched on under-representation of ethnic minorities. Do you think that the issue about people who just represent the part of the community they come from is true only of ethnic minorities, or does it happen in other groups as well? Professor Copus: People have a very complex relationship with the electorate and the idea of what it is that a councillor represents. From my research, many councillors will say that for them up there with the key issues about what they represent is their political party. If you look at the figures, in many

81 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 11 2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher respects they speak for themselves. I think I have quoted in the paper that in England about 93% of all councillors come from one of the three main political parties. A clear focus of representative attention for a large number of those members is their party; they see that as the vehicle through which they represent the public. Q35 Bill Esterson: Therefore, the group that that party mainly represents. Is that the point you make? Professor Copus: That is the link, but it is not exclusive because many members often get labelled parochial because they focus very much on their ward or division. That ward or division and its needs and requirements takes priority over the council as a whole. For those more policy-oriented members, that parochial member can often be a problem and almost stands aside from the real job of the council, which is to represent the entity called the council. But the idea of representative focus is many-faceted, so some would be looking at their ward; some members would be looking at representing their parties; some will see themselves as spokespeople rather than representatives of certain minority communities. There is a difference between acting as a spokesperson of a group and seeing yourself as representative solely of this interest. In my work I have not come across anybody from minority communities who admit that their job is just to represent that community. I think that if we did start to find that we would be moving into quite dangerous territory. Q36 Bill Esterson: In your submission, you said about 93% of councillors were members of one of the main political parties. My reaction to that point is that people vote for them. Do you see a way forward from that? Professor Copus: It is very difficult. I come to that conclusion as well. You have to say that if 93% come from the main political parties then the electorate must be happy with that, but the electoral system and the way in which the ward boundaries are drawn also adds to that. The difficulty of independents securing elections is partly a political opportunity structure as well the fact that political parties are able maybe to control what is happening within wards or divisions. But the issue is about how parties respond. If that is perceived to be a problem I made the point that the biggest under-represented group is those who are not members of political parties parties have a responsibility for the way in which they can start to introduce, say, a slightly lighter touch to the conduct of politics and elections, for example endorsing and supporting candidates. This is particularly the case with elected mayors, maybe less so with councillors, though I think there is also a case for councillors, in that parties do not necessarily need to stand candidates if there is a candidate there that they find broadly acceptable. If an independent happened to be from an ethnic minority community and put themselves forward as an independent, it is likely that a political party would stand a candidate against him or her who might be from an over-represented group. It is not just about selection; it is also about the process of election and how parties can be perhaps a little more sensitive. It is great when your party wins all the seats on the council. I have been a member of a council where that has been the case. You just have to ask yourself: do you need that many? Can we take a different approach? Rather than just addressing recruitment of party candidates, parties also need to address how they respond to non-party candidates. Q37 Bill Esterson: Michael and Liz, do you have any thoughts on independent councillors, and whether that would make a difference and it is a good thing? Professor Thrasher: Independent councillors are more likely to be male and older. Does that answer your question? Q38 David Heyes: I would say that community leadership should be central to the role of the councillor. You have all used that terminology in your work and in the evidence you have put to us. Do you all mean the same thing by it? Briefly, what do each of you mean when you use the term community leadership? Liz Richardson: It has been 12 years and we still do not quite know what this thing is. Moreover, for people who do know what it is there is too much of a disparity between people who are good at it and do lots of it, and people who are not very good at it and do not do very much of it. One conclusion some people might draw is that there are too many councillors doing too little community leadership. The other way to see the problem is that it is about getting out there and mobilising other people to contribute to solving problems, or making things better; it is about brokering controversial issues; and it is about making decisions jointly with communities. That raises a few big problems. The first is that it means that being a councillor in a ward or area is not just about having a war chest, like a community grant scheme, to distribute your largesse among the community. It means you need to see power as something to be shared and it is not a zero sum game, and decide criteria for resource allocation jointly with communities, so everyone can make decisions together. That is a really hard one. You need to persuade communities to generate alternative solutions by deliberating with them. That is a really hard one. Also, say yes to people more often by taking some risks. That is really hard. I think that being a community leader is quite a hard thing and challenges a lot of assumptions about politics. Professor Thrasher: I do not really know about this, but I will just make two points. Firstly, only about 60% to 70% of incumbent councillors reside in the ward that they represent, so I think we run into problems when we have this notion of community, with the councillors embedded within their communities. They live outside of the community that they represent on the council; this is particularly true in London, of course. Secondly, community is not a fixed sense in the electoral definition, because local ward boundaries are changed, so what we perceive sociologically as a community is not necessarily the same thing or fixed electorally. Currently, there is a fetish for electoral equality, both in terms of local ward boundaries and in terms of constituency

82 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 12 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher boundaries and the more you struggle for electoral equality the more you have to ignore what notions of community and community boundaries are. That raises problems, I think, in terms of what constitutes community leadership and who has it and how difficult it is for councillors who do not live in the place that they are representing to become community leaders. Professor Copus: All I would add to that is it is about leadership of place and leadership of communities of interest. Those two are not always conflicting but not always necessarily compatible aspects of leadership. I think there are councillors who see themselves very much wedded to leadership of place. What Michael said is absolutely right about not living within the wards, but councillors can very, very quickly adopt the requirements and indeed they do of individual wards. If they lose their seats or they are deselected and they move somewhere else, they very quickly adopt to placing that new area as a priority. The idea of leading place or at least being prominent and wedded to place is something that elected councillors understand. Leading communities of interest takes a broader and more complex set of processes and you tend to find that the two are often played by councillors with different takes on what being an elected representative is. Q39 David Heyes: I would like to get into this in greater depth, but the Chair is not going to let me. Just one follow up question: is there a skills gap then, between each of your conceptions of what the community leadership is and what is available in the current cohort of councillors and candidates? What can we do about it, if there is a gap? Liz Richardson: Partly what I was trying to argue is that the gap is not just skills; it is about fundamentally how we do politics and who has power and who makes decisions. Over and above that, yes, people need support and training. The regional employers organisations provide quite a lot of brilliant training. I have been involved in a scheme called the North West Employers Member Development Charter, Level 2. The basic question is if you plough money into giving training for councillors and sending them on what could be seen as jollies but which are not, does it then generate benefits, not for you lot, not for them lot, but for the community? I, as an academic, make them jump lots of hoops to give academic standards of evidence that there is community benefit from investment in skills. I think that is what is useful to try to protect that type of investment in something that looks potentially frivolous at a very, very pushed financial time. Professor Thrasher: I am going to pass, if you do not mind, and defer to my colleague. Professor Copus: One of the real problems in local government is the self-denying ordinance at the moment and that there is an unwillingness to want to support the development of councillor skills and abilities, because it is seen as though you are spending money in constrained times. There are most definitely skills gaps, but, at the same time, there are elected members who have levels of ability that, in other areas of occupation, they simply would not get the opportunity to show that ability and they are a key asset to local councils as well. One of the questions that used to be asked about councillors and is not anymore, because we have moved into a new territory of diversity, is about the calibre of elected councillors. This is a very, very old discussion, which, as I say, has now been sidelined, but you get the elected members who are elected and there is absolutely no problem, in my mind, in training and developing those members. What you have to be careful about is that you do not train them to become council officers, and that you recognise that the role of an elected member is very distinct to that of a council officer and, indeed, is part of the mechanisms by which the bureaucracy of the council is held to account. I have to say that an awful lot of training I have observed tends to train members in being what officers think would make good members. Really what we need to find out about is the skills that members need to develop. Q40 Simon Danczuk: Some councillors that I have met do not need any encouragement to try and emulate council officers, but moving on to other matters, starting with you, Colin, it is related to the community leadership stuff. You talked about localisation of decision-making and in your written evidence you put forward a raft of suggestions some interesting ones really getting down to a ward level in terms of what changes could be made to engage councillors in engaging with their community. Any particular two of those, out of that list that you provided, that you think really do the business? Professor Copus: I think the delegation of budgets to wards. Q41 Simon Danczuk: Do you mean significant amounts of money? Professor Copus: Clearly, the amount involved would have to suit each individual council, but I think the ability for members to spend money on specific local projects would require them to negotiate and to compromise and to build alliances within their wards or their divisions to be able to prioritise particular projects. They would be the ones who would be making those decisions. They would be accountable for the expenditure of that money and it would be them who would have to take the responsibility at the ballot box for making the decisions that they make. The other area where I would like to see the role of members strengthened within their wards is the ability to make decisions generally. I know we talk about general competence powers as being something that relates to local government as an entity, but I mean the ability to take policy and political decisions of an executive nature only within the ward. I am aware of the issues of how those decisions would have to align with the broader executive decisions, but the reality of the structure at the moment is that we do, in most councils, have executive members and those members who are not in the executive. That does not mean to say that executive decision-making cannot be shared within wards. That then recognises the reality of the new institutional structure well, it is not that new; it

83 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 13 2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher is over 10 years old now. So, certainly, budgets to spend and decisions to take. Q42 Simon Danczuk: Michael, Liz, just briefly then before we move on: how much influence do backbench councillors have in the current system and is that an issue? Professor Thrasher: You are asking the wrong person; I am sorry. Liz Richardson: There is a massive role here for the decentralisation agenda. I completely agree with Colin that you could push a lot more down to the neighbourhood or the area or the ward level to give backbenchers or frontline members a bit more of a run at it, but it is about the earlier point I was making about that not becoming a war chest that is then distributed. As I said in my submissions, one of the accusations that you do not want to talk that members that I speak to do not want to talk about but the citizens all want to talk about is what the Americans call pork-barrel politics. I am not saying it is right; I am just saying that that really does not help the situation. Having jointly agreed criteria for resource allocation within and between neighbourhoods with citizens and members is my big thing that would help this; it would delegate budgets without it becoming a politicised, unfair situation. Professor Thrasher: On just a practical level, though, if you are about to change the ward boundaries, that is going to make it interesting, having ward-level budgets. Simon Danczuk: Yes, good point. Q43 Mark Pawsey: Could I just ask a couple of question about the support councillors receive? We had some evidence on that in our earlier session and the difference between the support for an MP and a councillor. Professor Thrasher, you spoke about councillors only doing one term and then another term. Is one of the reasons, from the survey you have done, that councillors stand down that they do not receive enough support in the role? Professor Thrasher: We have asked that question in the past; it might sound strange, but no. Councillors generally believe that they receive a level of support from the local authority that they demanded, so they were generally pleased. This is only the councillors, of course, who can speak about this or former councillors, of course but they were generally approving of what the local authorities had done for them in terms of assisting their role of being a councillor. It was generally positive. Q44 Mark Pawsey: Could either of the other witnesses tell us whether you think councillors would be more effective and enjoy the job more if they had more support? Liz Richardson: There are two things that councillors in several areas have said to me. They would appreciate having more electronic systems that allowed them to track jobs for example, Newcastle already has this; there are lots of examples. That is very practical. The other big thing is I did some work; we tried to look at where the volume of correspondence comes from for councillors the drowning sensation. They said that where it is bad they get weird and wonderful correspondence from officers who just drown them in this stuff so they cannot be accused of hiding anything, but it is all irrelevant. Q45 Mark Pawsey: Can I follow that point, because in your evidence you spoke about, where there was support, councillors being inundated with data from officers and it getting in the way of them doing their job. You say that partly is officers covering their back by saying, Yes, of course I told you. I sent you an . How would you deal with that? How would you solve that problem? Liz Richardson: The two things that might help are if you got a nominated officer or a series of nominated officers who could act as a conduit or an intermediary. Neighbourhood workers in Bradford act as that person who has a sense of what is useful for my members that I am supporting and what is not, and can filter out all this rubbish. With democratic services and member services within authorities, it is usually one lady and half a person, isn t it? No one really cares about them and no one takes them that seriously and they do the most amazing job. They used to provide a lot more administrative support for members under the old committee system than they do now. I think those roles could be beefed up. Q46 Mark Pawsey: Professor Copus, you spoke about the need to ensure that councillors are not trained to be officers, but is there not a danger that the more training you do the more like officers they become, rather than representatives of the community, and they start getting involved in techno-speak? Also, some authorities seem to be run by councillors and other authorities seem to be run by officers. Have you got any views about whether one or the other is a better model? Professor Copus: I have to be very careful about that; I still have an academic career to maintain in local government. I think on the issue of support to members, there is most definitely a scattered pattern across the country. Some councils provide exemplary support to members, others provide minimal support, but the issue is: what is the nature of the support that the member wants? Often what councillors will say is they want information. It is very easy, as has just been said, to drown in information. What members really require is the appropriate information in the right size, at the right place, at the right time, and on the right issue, so the question is not just about providing members with material. The way I would look at it is that servicing the requirements of the politician should be seen as just as much a task of the authority as running any one of its services. After all, this is a politically representative institution, and you have to support politicians in conducting their activities and doing their job. For example, if a member wanted to conduct some research into recycling policies, who would they go to, who would they ask and where would be that point of contact? If they went to an officer in the appropriate department, the chances are that particular

84 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 14 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher request would sit somewhere until he or she perhaps found time to get round to doing it. So the idea that policy and research support to members is something that is done on the side is no longer sustainable. I think local authorities have to bite the bullet on that and provide proper services to their members. When I visit councils I get two stories. I am always told by members that officers run this council and I am told by the same group of officers that members run this council. This is a member-led authority, so I am often left wondering, Well who is running it? There is an inherent conflict between the elected member and the full-time officer in local government and it comes about from the fact that the job and the relationship between them is very different between the relationship that Members of Parliament will have with their committee staff here and with researchers at the House of Commons. What you have in local government are professional managers there to provide and oversee a particular service. In many respects, officers could almost run their entire career without coming that close to elected members. One authority I was in the day after the last local elections, I said to one particular officer, What did you think of last night? and I could see that they were racking their brains to think what had happened last night Was there something good on television? What did I miss? and it was the local elections. Often you get that deep divergence. At a certain level, however, members and officers work extremely closely and that is where you almost start to see the end scene of Animal Farm, where the animals are looking through the window and they look from the farmers to the animals and they cannot quite tell the difference. In some settings you can look for a member and the officer and not quite tell the difference, because they are talking the same language. You only have to look at the pages of the local government press to see letters or articles written by councillors; if I had a pound for every time I heard a member say, Going forward, I would be fairly wealthy. I think there is a need to distinguish between the roles. Chair: We had better move forward now. Q47 Heidi Alexander: Professor Copus, I think in your written evidence you said that there are two competing conceptualisations of councillors: the part-time lay councillor and the full-time professional councillor. Do you think that we need both types of councillor for a healthy local democracy? Professor Copus: I think the short answer is yes. They were deliberately extreme models in the submission but they are models that I think there are examples of, and there are strengths to having both those types of members. Again it recognises the reality of the institutional arrangements we have at the moment: the executive overview and scrutiny. Particularly in large authorities, it is a reasonable expectation for leaders, cabinet members to be full-time and there is a real debate here that needs to be had, I think, about whether we move towards salaried councillors and indeed, if we do move towards salaried councillors, how do we do that? What would be the level of salary? How would you organise that? On the other hand, it is absolutely vital that we have a group of elected members that do not become part of the machine. The danger with the full-time member is that they become too close maybe to the council that they are running and so, therefore, you do need those lay members who see themselves as one step removed from the authority. So I think there is a role for both. Q48 Heidi Alexander: Do you think if councillors were paid more money you would attract more able candidates? Professor Copus: I think you would have to pay an awful lot more, depending, of course, on what you mean by the term able. There are large, large numbers of very able councillors already in office. The question is: are they given the tools to be able to do the job, and is the remuneration appropriate? I think the answer to both of those questions is probably no. Professor Thrasher: We asked candidates whether they think that councillors are insufficiently paid and they disagreed. They reckon they are paid enough. Q49 Heidi Alexander: Oh right, okay. Liz, do you have any views on this issue? Liz Richardson: Only that the way that allowances are structured does not seem to give the right signal about the balance of work, in terms of sitting on external bodies and sitting on strategic decision-making committees; possibly you are trying to balance more things and it is more work, but it is prioritised financially more than doing your basic bread-and-butter constituency ward work. That signal does not sit right with the community leadership message for me. Q50 Heidi Alexander: My final question is: do you have any views on whether councillors are more effective when they operate in single-member wards or multi-member wards? Do you want to start? Liz Richardson: No, I do not really have anything to add. Professor Copus: I overheard what Jane Roberts was saying earlier, and I share that conclusion. If there is more than one member, there are opportunities to share workloads and for members to specialise as well in particular aspects. It is often in three-member wards you will find a member who is much more concerned about the policy side and you will find members who are much more concerned about nursing the ward, so it does enable that workload to be shared somewhat. I do not think voters are confused in any way; if they need to find a councillor they can find them. There may be some confusion around the old adage of, If it is one person one vote, why have I got to vote three times? I have come across that, but I think the ability to share the workload is crucial. Professor Thrasher: The 1835 Municipal Corporations Act established multi-member wards for the simple reason that the radical utilitarians wanted annual elections to keep people on their toes. The 1888 county councils act and the 1894 districts act established multi-member wards because they wanted whole council elections. The

85 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 15 2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher Victorians could not decide whether they wanted annual elections or three-yearly then, or four-yearly now. I will answer your question from the other side, from the voters point of view. Voters prefer elections every four years, and to get rid of the whole council or not. In terms of turnout, if it is a whole council election, as in London, then they will vote in higher numbers than in the metropolitan boroughs where they vote annually, which is different for parliamentary turnout, where it is the other way around. So there is strong evidence that whole council elections do encourage voter turnout. In terms of whether it works on the ground or not, I do not know. Chair: Thank you all very much for coming and giving your evidence. Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Councillor Peter Fleming, Chair, Improvement Board, Local Government Association, Tim Gilling, Acting Executive Director, Centre for Public Scrutiny, and Caroline Abrahams, Director of External Affairs, Age UK, gave evidence. Q51 Chair: Good afternoon. Thank you all very much for coming and for the evidence you have submitted so far. We are running a little bit behind schedule, so I hope that does not inconvenience you at all, in terms of the time you have to get away. Okay, thank you very much. Just for the sake of our records, could you say who you are and the organisation you represent? Tim Gilling: I am Tim Gilling. I am the Acting Executive Director at the Centre for Public Scrutiny. Peter Fleming: I am Peter Fleming. I am the Leader at Sevenoaks District Council and I also chair the Improvement Board at the Local Government Association. Caroline Abrahams: I am Caroline Abrahams. I am the Director of External Affairs at the charity, Age UK. I used to work for LGA; I thought I should let you know that. It means that I cannot not know what I know from that experience as well. Chair: Yes, we have all declared our interest in local government in the past, so thank you for that. Q52 David Heyes: Briefly, if each of you could say, just to start us off, what you think is the most important aspect of a councillor s role. Tim Gilling: It is difficult to come down on one particular aspect that is the most important, because we expect councillors to fulfil a number of roles, which span representative democracy and participative democracy. So, on the one hand, we expect councillors to be elected to represent us or to be representative of the place and we hold elections over a given period, in one respect to judge how well councillors have performed that role. But I think increasingly, particularly in these more modern times we expect councillors not only to interact with citizens at election time but to interact with them throughout all of the work that they are doing in a much more participative way. I would say it is difficult to pinpoint one particular role that councillors play. Peter Fleming: I have to say I agree with Tim. It is spot on; it is a hugely complex world that we live in now. Just to add on to the things that Tim said, we are also expected to work with other parts of the public sector and to bring lots of people together and convene services beyond those that were traditionally local government. If you look at the changes that are happening in health and other areas, our role has expanded rather than contracted and what we expect from our councillors is everything from that very hyper-local representative all the way up to somebody who is championing the whole place, the whole of the council area or even, dare I say it, the region. Caroline Abrahams: My answer would be that I think the most important thing councillors do is exercise good local political leadership. I think that is true whether you are talking about a backbench councillor engaging with the issues in their ward and then taking action to try and progress those, or whether they are portfolio-holders with a huge span of responsibility and responsible politically for the spending of vast sums of public money. I think in the end the exercise is the same, and it is different from being an officer, to follow on from the discussion you were having with previous witnesses. Q53 David Heyes: Tim, in your evidence you referred to the vital role of scrutiny. Some of my councillor colleagues the backbench councillors who spend time on scrutiny often say that is not a good use of their time. They want to be out in the community rather than sitting in endless scrutiny meetings and reading reams of briefing papers before they start. Is that the best way for councillors to use their time? Tim Gilling: The situation, as you have described, of councillors spending time in long meetings with large amounts of incomprehensible information does not sound like the best way for councillors to add value. So I suppose your question goes to the heart of how overview and scrutiny is carried out in councils, and there are a range of ways in which scrutiny can be carried out. It can be carried out along a model that mirrors the parliamentary select committee system. There is a place for much more formalised work, of councillors sitting in a formal session with invited witnesses, asking them questions and getting responses. There is also a perfectly valid role for councillors to be out in their communities, working perhaps in groups of two or three, going out to where people are, talking to people in the shopping centre, in the market or at the school gate, and bringing the product of that work back into the process. There is a range of ways in which scrutiny can work and all of them are valid. Some councillors will be very good in a formal session. They will ask incisive questions, they will listen to the answers and then they will follow them up. Some councillors may say

86 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 16 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams nothing in a formal meeting, but be very good at talking to their neighbours and colleagues that they work with. So I think there is a real cultural issue about how scrutiny works in authorities and it works differently in different places. Q54 David Heyes: I have some targeted questions for each of you. The one for Peter is: democratic legitimacy, low turnouts does that make the legitimacy of councillors questionable? Peter Fleming: I am just going to pick up a little bit of the question that you David Heyes: That is cheating a bit, but we will allow it. Peter Fleming: I think scrutiny is a bit of a negative term and it has a lot of negative connotations. In the best councils, their scrutiny is also doing other things, such as targeted work. It is always a joy to listen to a bunch of academics. I was quite glad you overran, because I have to say my toes were curling at some of their views, because it does not play out on the ground like they were saying. In reality, those backbench or frontline we would struggle to find a term are out there shaping policy as well and doing some of that really, really important work on whether the council is looking at all the options. They are not just looking at the history; they are looking at where the council goes in the future. I feel hugely supported as a leader with the work that my scrutiny and policy groups do, so I do not really see the world necessarily the same way as other people do. Q55 David Heyes: That is helpful, but how legitimate are you, given low turnouts? Peter Fleming: We are a layer of representative democracy. The issue that we are going to struggle with is, with localism and the devolving of powers, do we get to a point where the chairman of a residents association, who has never stood for election, will have quite considerable potential powers? Voter turnout is an issue for all of us and I think not many of you will have been elected on huge turnouts either. Q56 David Heyes: Okay. My targeted question for you, Caroline, is about older people in your present role. This survey you have done had a lot of stuff about the high expectations that older people might have of councillors. Is that fair? From my experience, councillors spend an awful lot of time working for older people. Caroline Abrahams: That is brilliant, and when it is done well it makes the most enormous difference. I think as older people get older, as it were, the upper age range, over-75s, have lower expectations. That is what our survey found in terms of what was likely to be achieved. I think that is partly because sometimes perhaps councillors could put a bit more emphasis on feeding back, as well as going off and doing some good things. I have no doubt that very often they do take up issues and do do their best, but doing that bit at the end, the feedback loop and making sure that older people know what has happened. Obviously it is true of other local constituents as well; it is not just about older people, but if you do not know what has happened on the back of the issue you raised, then it is hard to be satisfied. So I think part of what that is picking up is an issue around feedback, which is not always done as consistently well as it could be. Q57 Mark Pawsey: I want to ask one or two questions about community leadership. I am just wondering if you can comment on the role of the councillor with community leadership and, picking up Professor Thrasher s point, does it matter that the community is not the same as the ward? Peter Fleming: I thought there was a really interesting point made earlier, and it is about communities of interest. We have spoken in this Committee about communities of interest before, which go beyond ward boundaries. If you take the age issue as well, older people are a community of interest, as are mothers in Caffè Nero on a Tuesday morning, talking about issues that Q58 Mark Pawsey: Sure, but is it the role of one councillor to pick up that particular interest, or should there be a group of councillors who pick it up? If you define it geographically, then whether it is single-member or multi-member, there is an allocated area of responsibility. If it is mothers in Caffè Nero, any councillor could lay claim to that. Peter Fleming: Absolutely, and so they should. A councillor is elected to represent a geographic area, and within that geographic area there will be many communities of interest that may spread beyond those ward boundaries. Whilst there are things that are very ward-focused and very ward-based, the reality is I do not know many members who would not help somebody, or a group of people, who straddle a ward boundary. You do not get into local government just to look after a Q59 Mark Pawsey: Right, but should there be a geographically defined area, in the same way as Members of Parliament, for example, do not interfere in constituency matters arising in another area? You are saying that is not a problem as far as local councillors are concerned. What happens if it is different parties and the councillor of ward A of one party starts interfering in the matters of a councillor in ward B who is from a different party? Peter Fleming: Absolutely, but if you look at the roles and responsibilities of councils, if you take an issue like planning, that is ward-focused and ward-based, so a ward councillor, or multiple ward councillors, will look after planning applications within their ward. Q60 Mark Pawsey: Unless he is on the planning committee when he has a broader brief. Peter Fleming: Absolutely, but what I am saying is that we have multiple roles. It is a complex issue. If I go and speak to an older people s group, they will not necessarily all come from my ward. Does that mean that I cannot legitimately speak to that older people s group? Of course not. Q61 Mark Pawsey: Right. Any other comments? Caroline Abrahams: I would just say I think that neighbourhood matters, so whatever arrangements are in place locally for how responsibility is divided up

87 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 17 2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams amongst the group of councillors, I think it is really important that there is a councillor who is very clearly seen as representing the interests of people living in a specific area. One of the things about older people is that they tend to be around their specific area rather more than many of the rest of us, who go off in the morning to go to work and come back again. My mum knows much more about what it is like around where we live than I do, frankly, because she is there much more. I think it is also true of mums and dads with little children in Caffè Nero, who are also often more around the localities. I think smart councillors recognise that you need to talk to people, like the older people living in the area or, indeed, other people who are there a lot, to find out what is going on in your patch, so that you can then represent them and you are in touch with that. So I think it is a win-win. Tim Gilling: I would say that community leadership operates at a number of levels. At the basic ward level, it is about knowing the needs of the people who live there, bringing people together to sort out problems, getting things done. At another level, at a corporate level, it is for all the councillors acting together to have an understanding of the place in totality and about setting an agenda, in consultation with people, about what that place might look and feel like. Q62 Mark Pawsey: Okay. Are there any things that could be done to enhance that community leadership role? What about the issue where there is a community that does not want to be led? Maybe they are quite happy to articulate their own vision and their own problems maybe in a neighbourhood plan, without the input of the local councillor; is that a problem? Should we empower the local councillor to take control, or are you happy just to leave things as they are? Peter Fleming: They are being empowered by the legislation at the moment. The Localism Act starts to empower local communities to do things that they have not been able to do before. Q63 Mark Pawsey: That could be done without the local councillor. Peter Fleming: I see that the role of the local councillor is changing, and it has been changing over history as well, but we are in probably an accelerated period at the moment, where local councillors will become much the convenors of place or their local neighbourhoods or their areas, and help bring some of these things together. Q64 Mark Pawsey: What about if the community does not want to be convened? That is the point I am making. What if they say the local councillor is not relevant? We had evidence about the proportion of councillors who do not even live in the ward they represent, so why can that community not marginalise the councillor? Peter Fleming: I think talking about whether the councillor lives absolutely in the ward that they represent is a slight red herring, because you do not know that they do not live in the ward, like the other side of the road or something like that. Especially in London, where the wards tend to be quite small in places, this concept of them having to live right in the heart of that community they represent does not say that they are going to be either a good or a bad councillor. I think communities are going to be empowered, but I think there is still a massive role for councillors and, in fact, one that is increasing rather than decreasing. Q65 Mark Pawsey: Ms Abrahams, if the older community does not engage with their councillor, is that a problem? Caroline Abrahams: I am not sure it is a problem for the older people. I think it might be a problem for the councillor, to be honest, but people will do what they want to do, I think. They will vote where they think they can make a difference. I suppose, too, if you have a good experience of your local councillor that makes you want to engage with them all the more. Equally, if it has not been so good, then I think people will probably vote with their feet a bit. Q66 Simon Danczuk: The truth is, is it not, that councillors in a ward cannot get much done, can they, if the cabinet member s against them and if the director of whatever services is not supporting them, they cannot make something happen in their ward. It is very difficult to do that. Do we not need to devolve decisions down to the individual councillor in each ward? What do you think, Tim? Tim Gilling: There is something interesting in the nature of how decisions are taken in local government, so if we are thinking about promoting particular models of decision-making there are a range of options, of which that is one. From our perspective, as an organisation, we would like to see decision-making framed around a set of principles and those principles are about being transparent, about being inclusive and about being accountable. Devolving decisions down, in terms of giving councillors money to spend, can, as we have been hearing, help solve some really local issues. The risk, I suppose, is that there is a danger that that spending becomes focused on one particular community that a councillor is particularly sympathetic with. It is vitally important that, if we do have that model, it is transparent about what the resources are, who is taking the decision and how people can influence what that decision is. That is the same with a councillor making a decision in their ward as it is for the whole council taking decisions about budget strategy, or whatever it might be. There is certainly lots of evidence, not least from the low electoral turnout, that people are disconnected, perhaps, from the processes of decision-making. They are not disconnected from the issues. They are very passionate about the issues and the problems and challenges they face in their lives. What they are probably beginning to lack confidence in is the political process through which they get things changed. So having something happening that is much more local to them that they really feel they can own and have a stake in is probably a good thing, but there is a risk that that system works in a different way and we need to mitigate against those risks, but that is not to say that it is not a good thing to try out.

88 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 18 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams Peter Fleming: There are examples up and down the country of councils that do devolve both money and responsibility to ward councillor. Q67 Simon Danczuk: They will be the exception rather than the rule though, won t they, Peter? Peter Fleming: I live in a two-tier area, and I know that both the county members in my area and my members have the opportunity to either have a budget that they can spend or bid for money to spend in their locality. I know that that is not unusual within local government now, so I do not really think that that is where we are. Q68 Simon Danczuk: You do not think that we need to devolve decision-making down to wards. Peter Fleming: I think it is difficult to prescribe that sort of thing from any national level of, You must devolve. I think the Localism Act gives a lot of pointers as to where decision-making could be devolved if there is an appetite from the local community, because that is the other part of it. Part of the role of councillors is, perhaps, going into the future, to build some of that community empowerment to be able to take on some of those roles from the council, but I think we have to also keep in mind that budgets are being squeezed. I think there is a danger that, on the one side, we are being squeezed at the centre and then we are also trying to devolve services to a very small area; as we know, it is quite often more expensive to deliver certain council services at a very local level than it is to do it across the whole county. Q69 Simon Danczuk: What do you think, Caroline? Caroline Abrahams: We certainly have quite a lot of evidence of ward councillors making a real difference, so from that point of view I would not want to suggest in any way that that cannot be an effective role; it very often is. That is on very bread-and-butter issues like wonky pavements, seats, toilet facilities and that sort of thing, which are important for older people in their areas. That, of course, is not to say that it could not also work well in certain circumstances if the budget was devolved. I imagine if that happened, to follow on from what Peter was saying, that local councillors would then face quite difficult decisions being lobbied by the local mums is it a play facility you want locally if there is any money going, or is it a seat to help older people who get a bit tired on the way to the shops? I think, again, that might be at least as much an issue for councillors in what is going to work best for them. I can see from their point of view there can sometimes be advantages to the decision not being quite so close to home, as it were, but I think it all lies in the skill of the councillor as a political operator. The good ones that we saw certainly know how to get things done, contact the right people, know how the system works and are able to make a positive difference for the people living in their area, which is great. Q70 Bill Esterson: Can you tell us what the LGA is doing to encourage more people to stand for a council and what success you have had? Peter Fleming: We run Be a Councillor, which is all about finding people who are councillors from groups that are not well represented and putting them forward as the face of Be a Councillor, which is a national campaign supported by Parliament as well, to which we are really grateful. Again local government is a complex mixture of places and outcomes in places. In certain councils that we can all think of, not that far away from this place, we have hyper-ambitious younger councillors from certain political parties who are all on a trajectory to go somewhere else with their political careers, and in other places you have older people who have different experiences that they bring to councils. Q71 Bill Esterson: I can only assume you are talking about Bob, as he is from a council. Peter Fleming: I am not talking about anybody specifically. There is always more we can do, and I think the more important thing is about the one-term councillors and the support that we can offer people who, both at local council level and at the LGA level, we invest quite a lot of money, time and effort into people. The thing that we really need to concentrate on is not just be a councillor but stay a councillor. Q72 Bill Esterson: We have talked with the other groups about independent councillors and about the three parties monopolising councillors; 93% of all councillors represent one of them. Does that bring a different perspective? Caroline Abrahams: I have not got any specific evidence on that but, interestingly, one of the councillors who we have got a bit of evidence about, who has been fantastic, commented at the end of his remarks to us and he is a borough councillor that politics does not come into our actions taken at this level. He was talking all about being a very responsive and in-touch local ward councillor. For him really it was not about the politics; it was about what more he could do to help everybody in his area. I thoroughly applaud him for that, without being naive, of course, about the politics and the importance of that. Q73 Bill Esterson: Tim, perhaps you can think about how you boost public understanding of local government, and whether that is a barrier to coming forward as a candidate. Tim Gilling: You heard some evidence earlier on that people do not seem to generally understand what local government does, but then they do not generally seem to understand who plans and delivers health services or any other particular aspect of public service, so there is a disconnect from that point of view. I have never been a councillor, although I have worked as an officer supporting democratic structures. Councillors need to talk much more about what councils do. There is a risk that we begin to promote particular party-political agendas if we do not simply confine ourselves to talking about what councils do and the value that they add to people s lives and the

89 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 19 2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams difference that councillors could make to those services if they were to stand. I suppose for the constituency of councillors that we particularly represent those who serve on overview and scrutiny where party politics can play an element is if there is an element of whipping in overview and scrutiny committees. Our experience is that it happens very rarely, and lots of councillors on scrutiny committees say to us that they leave their party-political hat at the door, because overview and scrutiny is about being very constructive; it is about being consensual; it is about examining the evidence; and it is about talking to the right people, so lots of councillors report to us that whipping does not often happen, although it does happen in some places, they report. But our experience is that best practice, certainly in scrutiny, is that councillors do not operate it in an oppositional, party-political way, but it is interesting that this goes to the heart of the culture of the council, I guess. We run an annual survey of local government scrutiny every year, so we try to test out how well councils and councillors feel scrutiny is working in their place. Some councils say, Our scrutiny process is great because we have lots of call-ins and we are challenging the executive, and some councils say to us, Our scrutiny process is great because we never have any call-ins. We are sorting out problems outside of the process of decision-making. It goes to the heart of the culture of the organisation, and the relationship between the political parties in any one place. Q74 Bill Esterson: Caroline, do you think that the parties should look at the way they recruit? Caroline Abrahams: It is interesting, because very often in the debate around councillors and their representativeness, one of the issues that is often picked up is the fact that many councillors are older people and there is a worry about how easy or how in-touch they are with younger groups within the community. Of course, that is not a problem for Age UK, as it were, but I think the problem that does arise is encouraging and supporting older people who are councillors to think as older people themselves and to be themselves as well as worrying hugely about what they are doing as councillors. I will just give you a very typical example of that: I met a delightful man last week who was a lead member for adult services in a northern authority. He was saying he had visited a care home, and he had been hugely struck by how much difference it was making to older people with dementia to have a memory board, which was a board with all kinds of old objects from the thirties and forties. For example, he talked about one woman who had seen this she had not said anything but seeing this had got her talking and it was all wonderful. Then he was talking to the care home staff and what they were telling him was that it cost them 80 to hire this from some specialist organisation that provides these things for drama companies and TV and things. He remembered that there was a little local museum in his area that had some of these things and so he has joined it up. He is hugely committed to the issue, and he has been intelligent and sensible; he has made a concrete suggestion and then he made it happen by getting over the scepticism initially of the care home staff and his officers and driving it through. He is sensitive to the issues for other older people because he is an older person himself, and he is happy to admit it. I just think it is a nice example of the kind of difference in a very natural, unpolitical kind of way that councillors can sometimes make. Q75 Bill Esterson: Can I move on to money? This one is for you, Peter. In some places, councillors end up on all sorts of outside bodies and end up earning I have come across councillors on six figures with all the outside bodies that they are on. Peter Fleming: It is not me. Q76 Bill Esterson: Where is the LGA on allowances and, that example apart, would more money attract better candidates? Peter Fleming: I do not think it is necessarily helpful to the work that you are doing at the moment, because of course a lot of this has been covered not that long ago with the Councillors Commission work. In saying that, I think for some people in some places, it may be a barrier. One of the ones that is regularly quoted are people on benefits, and the effect that getting an allowance has on their benefits, and whether that is a barrier to people on benefits standing as councillors and representing potentially other people on benefits at a council level. That is one end of the scale. Q77 Bill Esterson: Just to come back to the point about the six-figure councillor, there are councillors who quite like staying as councillors because of the money, and that is a barrier to other people and causes all sorts of other problems. I do not know if you have addressed that. Peter Fleming: Sorry, I was starting at one end of the scale; I was going to work my way up. On my council, I have quite a few younger councillors, but they all have incredibly well paid jobs, so am I saying to people, If you want to take an executive position on my council, actually you are going to take a massive pay cut rather than a pay rise? I think the examples of six figures are very, very rare. For the majority of councillors, the allowance just about, or just does not, covers the cost of them being a councillor. So I think we need to be, perhaps, a little bit less Daily Mail about the idea of loads of councillors on six figures. That is just not the case. In fact, if we are looking at it, I think in certain areas councillors allowances are a barrier to people coming in, mostly because they will be worse off than they are either on benefits or in work. Tim Gilling: There are two things from me on this. One is that the level of allowances really speak to the esteem with which we hold the office of councillor. I think we do, as a society, need to value the role of the councillor, and the level of allowance that councillors get in a particular place does, to some extent, reflect the value that we put on the role. The second point on allowances in terms of the difference between a cabinet member or an executive member and somebody who might be chairing or serving on a scrutiny committee is one around parity

90 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 20 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams of esteem. Again, it is an opportunity, I think, for councils to say, We do value the role of overview and scrutiny as much as the role of an executive councillor, and in some councils there is a marked difference between what the allowance is, or the remuneration that an executive councillor gets, and something that a scrutiny committee chair or chairman might get. The figure that we set on allowance can say something about the extent to which we value what those people do. Q78 Heidi Alexander: Councillor Fleming, I think you said earlier about the changing role of councillors, perhaps, with some of the changes that come along with the Localism Act. Do you think that the training and support that is provided to councillors needs to change to keep pace with that changing environment? Peter Fleming: One of the things that slightly annoyed me about the previous session was when they said there is one person in democratic or member services. It is ridiculous, and even the smallest councils tend to have a number of people who are there to support the role of councillor. Lots of councils do very good induction and training, which is updated so that members are constantly getting a flow of new information, whether it is on planning, the NPPF, or on the Localism Bill. They make sure that their members are absolutely up-to-date, because they are decision-makers and they have to make decisions within the confines of the law as it stands or will stand. I think councils do a lot work, and within the LGA obviously we have a clear set of training opportunities for members that we will deliver to councils and groups of councillors in their own authorities, or schemes to further councillors ability, so that they can take more leadership roles either within their councils or in a more national role. Q79 Heidi Alexander: Has the LGA done any research about member development budgets and the extent to which they have been protected in the last couple of years, given the financial pressures that authorities are under? Peter Fleming: I do not know that, but I can get you that. Q80 Heidi Alexander: What is your sense? Peter Fleming: All budgets are under pressure, so I would not take a reduction in member development budgets as saying that they have been singled out for reduction. All budgets are under enormous pressure and you need to see it in the context of a 28% reduction in government grant. Q81 Heidi Alexander: Tim, do you think councillors are supported and properly trained in the scrutiny functions that they have to fulfil? Do they get the support for that part of the role? Tim Gilling: In some places undoubtedly they get excellent support. I have been privileged to work for a council where there was a very dedicated policy team supporting a range of scrutiny committees. If I reflect on the national picture, another finding of the national research that we do shows that over the last few years certainly the discretionary budgets that scrutiny committees are able to use to go out and do interesting work, and get people to come and talk to them, has gone down, possibly at the very moment when the maturity of the scrutiny function, if I can put it like that, is reaching quite a high level. I suppose to some extent that reflects what Peter was just saying about all budgets being under pressure. I guess there is a risk in councils that, when you are looking to cut resources, with anything that is funding accountability or scrutiny, and is not a frontline service, there is a temptation to look to make a disproportionate cut there. However, I would say there has never been a more important time for councillors to be supported in terms of understanding how the pattern of services are changing, understanding the best questions they can ask about what impact that will have on people who live in their place, and then understanding what to do with the information that you have gathered. There is a range of skills that councillors need these days, very much around analysing data. There is lots of data. How do you handle data? How do you understand it? How do you interpret it? How do you then go out and test it? How do you go out and perhaps listen to people that Caroline represents, in terms of listening to peoples stories? There is a range of skills, some of which will be manifest in a more formal scrutiny environment, but very many are the softer ones that councillors will use outside. Scrutiny support is needed absolutely, and of course we will provide a range of support, which is partly funded by the Local Government Association, to councillors, but we do other things, and resources are very much under pressure at the moment. Q82 Heidi Alexander: Caroline, have you any thoughts on that area in relation to older people, and engaging with older people, and the particular skills that councillors need? Caroline Abrahams: From what we have seen from the older people we have talked to, it is people who treat them with respect, who talk to them, who are approachable, who have taken the time and understand that you need to publicise how to get in touch with them. That is perhaps easier in some smaller settings than in busy cities, but an example here is of somebody explaining how councillors hold a surgery once a month in the local library, their contact details are on the noticeboard outside the parish office and published in the parish newsletter every quarter. As well as that very basic but quite important stuff, it is also people who understand a bit about what is around locally and so do know that there is an elder forum to go along to and talk to people at, or who are actively engaged with local community groups. It is about how to be a good councillor as much as anything. I bet it pays off too, in terms of votes when it comes to election time. It really makes a difference and people do appreciate it. Q83 Chair: One final question to each of you; to begin with, Tim. There is a suspicion, isn t there, at least in some councils, that the scrutiny committees are just there to try and find backbench councillors something to do now all the powers have been transferred off to the cabinet? Is that really the case

91 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 21 2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams or have you got examples where the scrutiny committees and backbench councillors actually have some real impact and influence over the strategic direction of the authority? Tim Gilling: I do. Undoubtedly, there will be some councils where the culture is that backbenchers are doing something else over here. But we have a lot of examples, principally through our own Good Scrutiny Awards, which are now in their fifth year, where we look particularly for good examples. Reflecting on some recent experience of those, in Gloucestershire the council ran a one day scrutiny commission on the Environment Agency s flood strategy for the Severn Estuary. This strategy had caused lots of residents and businesses over a very wide area a lot of difficulty. They were finding it difficult to engage with the Environment Agency so the councillors at Gloucestershire took responsibility for that; they brought people together. That has resulted in the Environment Agency not only reviewing the way it is handling its Severn Estuary duties, but they are also saying that this new model of consultation they have adopted in the Southwest is going to be one they will now use nationally. That is an example of some local councillors dealing with an issue over a wider area, as Peter was describing, affecting the strategy of a national agency. Bradford Council recently ran a very inclusive scrutiny review and developed a food strategy for the city of Bradford, which is about encouraging local communities to become much more active in growing and supplying their own food, so people have much better access to cheap local food supplies. In Cardiff, they carried out a scrutiny of the night-time economy and the way in which activities that fund it were perceived, and tested out its value to the city. That really affected the way that the council now views and handles what happens in Cardiff city centre at night. So there are some examples there, and we have many more that I can supply. Chair: That is very helpful, thank you. Tim Gilling: But absolutely at the heart of the culture of the council should be a view that says, Scrutiny can add significant value to the work of the executive. It is not all just about waiting until the executive has done something and then telling them it has gone wrong. Lots of councillors tell us that some of the best and most satisfying work they do is about contributing to policy development. Q84 Chair: Caroline, just to pick up from a serviceuser point of view, councillors can be very, very good at engaging with service users in their roles as ward councillors. When it comes to scrutiny, they think that their sole job is to actually interrogate council officers at the occasional hearing, and do not see a need to actually engage with service users to get their perspective on things. Is that your experience or have you got some good examples where councils have been engaging very well with older people? Caroline Abrahams: I haven t got any evidence particularly in the context of scrutiny. I have to be honest about that. What I certainly have got is evidence of people saying what was good about their local councillor was the fact they took the time both to talk to local older people, but also to monitor the situation for themselves. They put those two things together and used that as a means of actually holding the council to account, and indeed other people where that was relevant. What is impressive about that, I think from my point of view, is that is clearly a councillor who has a bit of a strategic grip of how you go about being really effective, has planned the use of their time, knows there is something coming up that they need to be ready for and has actually planned all the work that they need to do. Part of that has been talking to local older people as well as making up their own minds about the issues. Q85 Bob Blackman: Peter, you have been a councillor for quite a time 13 years I think. I do not know about the structure of your council or others, but how would you answer the criticism that would go: council meetings do not make decisions; they are a bit irrelevant; the public and press do not turn up; there are no committees so the press do not participate in that; the cabinet or the executive make all the decisions actually the decisions are made before they even get into the meeting, so what is the point in the press and public arriving? turnout at local elections goes down; and interest goes down. Should there be an alternative structure, and if so, what should it be? Peter Fleming: There are lots of layers in that. The first thing is, in my own council we have pre-cabinet scrutiny; every cabinet paper goes to a scrutiny committee first. I have the minutes of their meetings. If they do not like a decision I am just about to make, or have some ideas or views, we can take those on board prior. Q86 Bob Blackman: That is fine, because that is the councillors presumably scrutinising it. But if I am a member of the public thinking about a decision that your council is going to take, or a member of the press inquiring, what happens there? Peter Fleming: We have seen this across all politics: people do not follow politics in its broadest sense anymore, but they do follow the things that interest them hugely. We are looking at local maternity services at the moment. There are a group of people who really care about local maternity services and will turn up to meetings, and the press will take an interest. We are working with Mumsnet to make sure that we pick up as many people as we possibly can. Q87 Bob Blackman: That is you exercising your scrutiny role over the health service. That is not a decision that the council is taking. Peter Fleming: No, it s not. It is about helping the health service in making their decisions. I think we need to stop necessarily thinking about the scrutiny role as something that happens after the event. That s not where we are anymore. The majority of councils have realised that looking at something after it has happened is not the way ahead. Most scrutiny in local government now actually looks at stuff before it happens and helps shape. They do that by talking to local people and local groups, by bringing their experience from their ward-level work to those

92 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :47] Job: Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_ HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml Ev 22 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams meetings, and helping drive that policy of the council forward. The most forward-thinking councils and executives within councils take that and move it forward. Q88 Bob Blackman: If I am a normal resident of your area and I don t know anything about the decision-making structure or whatever, how would I influence the decision-making structure to get what I think I want for me and my local people? I am not a councillor; I don t even know who my councillor is. What do I do? Peter Fleming: I would be disappointed that you would not know who your local councillor is. Q89 Bob Blackman: I would challenge the vast majority of councillors in this country that they are well known in their area. It is just one of those things that happens because of the sheer volume of people they represent. Peter Fleming: I would say when you have an issue of vital importance to you, whether it is new parking restrictions, a planning application at the end of your road or something else, you soon find out who your local councillor is. Most people are disengaged with all politics until it matters to them. Bob Blackman: Absolutely, I agree. Peter Fleming: That is the reality. What is important for local government is to make sure that, when that person does engage because there is an issue of importance to them, there is an easy access to their local councillor, and their local councillor knows how to make things happen or at least point the person in the right direction. One of the issues that Tim sort of touched on is an issue in my area where you have three levels of local governance: you have a county, a district and a parish. I spend quite a bit of my time signposting people, although as soon as you begin to understand how county councils work and they are a whole world amongst themselves you can actually get in touch with officers yourself and help that individual, so they do not need to see that there are different layers. The reality is that when somebody really cares about an issue in their area, they will soon find out the person who is their local councillor, even if they have not been involved or interested in local governance before that point. Tim Gilling: Very quickly on that point, this is about transparency. Organisations, whatever they are doing, and councils in particular, have to be very transparent about who takes decisions, when and how they take them, and how you can get involved with them. The Local Government Act 2000 envisaged a snappy little document called the Forward Plan that would help with some of that. I am not sure that it has particularly helped in very many places. The point I want to make on transparency is that we should not restrict transparency to publishing historic spending information; we need to be much more transparent about the culture and how decision-making is actually carried out. Q90 Chair: One final point a bit tongue in cheek maybe. How frustrating for councillors is it when they have done all this work on the ground, really engaged with their communities, there is a bit of publicity to be had and they are on the front-page of the local paper, and on the television news there is the local MP with a letter to the Minister using their particular access to gain all the publicity for the good work done? Peter Fleming: Obviously I have a great relationship with my local MP. There is an inbuilt tension there. Actually, the biggest inbuilt tension is the fact that some MPs think all that councillors are are people potentially after their jobs. Q91 Bill Esterson: Name them. Peter Fleming: I couldn t possibly name them. Chair: Too many. Peter Fleming: Once you put their minds at rest that you are not actually interested in coming to this place, I think the relationship soon gets better. Chair: On that note, thank you very much indeed for coming in and giving us evidence. Thank you.

93 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 23 Monday 9 July 2012 Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair) Bob Blackman Simon Danczuk Bill Esterson Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Councillor Paul Watson, Leader, Councillor Celia Gofton, Portfolio Holder, Responsive Services and Customer Care, and Dr Dave Smith, Chief Executive, Sunderland City Council, gave evidence. Q92 Chair: Good morning. We are members of the House of Commons Select Committee on Communities and Local Government. This is the second session of evidence in our inquiry into councillors and the community. Could I begin by thanking Sunderland City Council for hosting the event and the arrangements it has made for us? That is very much appreciated. Pass on our thanks to everyone who has been involved. A full transcript of the evidence we take today, which is being recorded, will be available on the Committee s website within a week. I am sure that it will be very useful for us to draw on it for the report we eventually produce. At the beginning, could I ask the first three witnesses to say who they are and the organisation they represent? That would be a good start to make. Paul Watson: My name is Councillor Paul Watson and I am leader of Sunderland City Council. Celia Gofton: My name is Councillor Celia Gofton. I am, first and foremost, councillor for Pallion ward in the city and have portfolio responsibility for responsive services and customer care within the council. Dr Smith: I am Dave Smith, chief executive of the city council. Q93 Chair: I almost welcomed you to your own council chamber, but thank you for making this available to us. It is good to get out of London and have sessions in the community, because that is what councillors are all about; indeed, that is the first issue I would like to raise with you. In evidence to us you have explained something about your community leadership programme, which seems to be of particular interest. Could you tell us a little about it and how much progress you have made on it so far? Paul Watson: The community leadership programme is part and parcel of the Sunderland Way of Working. A few years ago, possibly in , we looked at the position we were in going forward with the economic constraints of the world and the country, and particularly in relation to apathy shown by the turnout at elections and things like that. We decided to have a look at things to see how we might turn that round in Sunderland. There were three or four facets to the Sunderland Way of Working to change the politics and the way we were thought of in the public s mind. The community leadership programme was part of that. It focused on the relationship among the council, councillors and locally elected leaders. It was about enabling us to be pertinent to and relevant in the community. That entailed changing the way we worked from a back office point of view to give us better and more effective access to the council and its services and how they were deployed, and in particular the responsiveness to people in the community. The community leadership programme endeavoured to make councillors the focus for action and leaders in their communities. That gave communities the feeling that, where there was a problem, there was a solution in the councillor. People were phoning the council for this, that and the other they still do, and rightly so but often bypassed the councillor in their role in solving problems in the community, i.e. in being at the front line in pulling together local multi-agency, problemsolving panels the police, health, local social landlords, and people like that to focus on and try to resolve issues at a local level. Part of that was about trying to enable people to understand that they could be effective in changing the way they live and things that mattered to them in the local environment, and that the councillor had a view and had a pertinent role to play in that. We needed to make sure that the back office was responsive to that, so we created area response managers. Councillor Gofton, who was very much involved in that issue, will be better able to tell you about that. Celia Gofton: If you ask any councillor, possibly any MP, what their constituents bring forward as issues, in many instances, not exclusively, after the economy it is about the immediate environment where they live. When we looked at that not that we did not know before it became clear, adopting the focus Councillor Watson explained, that we had control over lots of issues being brought forward and that we could change quite quickly. We brought them together into a group of what we called local services and focused on responsive local services. We tried to walk before we could run, but almost immediately it was welcomed with open arms by both councillors and by residents. Having had the reorganisation Councillor Watson has just described, by officers newly appointed to these roles, we just simply changed things round. If you had had a problem of graffiti, it might have taken a couple of days for that to be resolved. We have had cases where we have engaged people on the phone and they have come to remove the graffiti as we are talking to them. I do not suggest that it is rocket science, but when you sit in your surgeries, just as when we sit in our surgeries, you know that, beyond someone s personal

94 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 24 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Celia Gofton and Dr Dave Smith health and the economy, it is the immediate environmental problems that create issues for them. We expanded the group of topics that we took up. We really had no choice, because fellow councillors wanted that to be the case. It was so successful that the imperative to expand was there before the ink was dry on the paper. We have now included parks and so on. We used that model when we made the changes to area committees, which I think you are to discuss later, but in general that was the imperative behind responsive local services, putting the councillor, who was able to do something immediately about what happened in their area and ward, right at the front of things, rather than someone ringing the council office not that it is a terrible thing and having an officer contact them and, in many ways, literally bypassing the local councillor. Therefore, it gives the councillor a central role in everything that happens. Q94 Chair: Before Dr Smith comes in as well, there are two points. First, have councillors generally responded positively to this? Some people have been on the council for quite a long time and maybe do not want to change the way they work. They think they have done a good job and it is all okay. Why should they adopt all these new-fangled ways of operating? Secondly, have you done any surveys of the public to find out whether they feel they are getting a better deal out of their councillors because of this? Celia Gofton: Indeed we have. Probably the chief executive will want to talk about the response of the public. All I can say from the point of view of cabinet responsibility is that we are pressed and pressed by our members to expand what we do. You can see from the satisfaction survey that, in terms of the officer/ councillor relationship, it is in the 90s. You can tell from that that the imperative is to continue and do more because this has been so successful. I would not deny that it is in its early stages; we are just a few years into this. There are big plans ahead to expand it, but, of all the statistics you will hear, the big one is that way over 90% of fellow councillors are very happy with the internal service they receive. A lot of that, not exclusively, is to do with the community leadership programme. In terms of residents, I pass you over to the chief executive. Dr Smith: Sunderland Council has had a good quality of services over a number of years. That has been recognised year in year out in the annual surveys we do of our residents. The challenge for us over the past three years has been, how can we sustain and improve on that quality of service while reducing our cost base? The short answer to your question is that we have improved customer satisfaction from already high levels of satisfaction prior to this programme. Going back three years, while the residents of Sunderland judged the individual services of the council generally very highly, they did not associate that quality of service with the council itself. Therefore, the services were rated highly, the council was not. Nationally, this was a pretty common picture among councils across the country. Trust and satisfaction with the council were much lower than with the individual services that the council happened to provide. The interesting issue for us is that, through this programme, trust and satisfaction with the council have now reached the same levels as for the individual services the council provides. People are now able to make a direct association between the services they are receiving and the council s responsibility to provide those services and the role of the elected members at local level to mediate between individual or community needs and the council s ability to respond to those needs. The council is now seen as being more timely and relevant in providing a qualitatively better approach to its communities than it was three years ago. From my perspective this is linked to Councillor Gofton s point and is in part an answer to your question ultimately the difference between what we have done in the last three years and what we would have traditionally done before is that we have not sought to tackle the problem as a systems issue. Although we have done systems changes, first and foremost we reckoned this was about setting relationships: between elected members and their local communities, and between communities and elected members and the council as an entity. If we sorted out those relationships, we had the opportunity to build the sort of trust and interaction between them that would make a difference. The governance and systems changes we have introduced followed on from breaking into that territory and building a set of relationships that made a difference to people s lives. That was the key to our success. Q95 Simon Danczuk: The community leadership programme sounds fantastic in terms of what has been done. Does this mean that you are spending more on councillor support? Has it increased the budget? Dr Smith: We are spending proportionately less money overall, but what we have done is redirect resources to the front line. Part of the change we have introduced is essentially to take about 30% out of our back-office costs. Some of that money has gone as direct savings, but other elements have gone into front-line services better to support elected members in their community leadership role and to improve the direct delivery of services. If you take graffiti services, which is one of the responsive local services, overall the council is spending less money on its Streetscene services, but it is delivering the services far quicker. The high priority graffiti removal service has reduced in time from three days to three hours. For us, the essence was to redirect those resources in a way that made a difference, while making the savings in money that this council, like every other, has had to make over the last few years. Q96 Simon Danczuk: Because we are looking at councillors and the role they play, one particularly interesting issue is how they are received by council officers. Have you done anything in terms of getting council officers to understand the important role councillors perform? Paul Watson: There are now many more occasions when councillors and council officers get together and discuss things. We have got things like area walkabouts, where the local response manager takes

95 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 25 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Celia Gofton and Dr Dave Smith ownership of the problems in the area, if you like. They are full-time employees, whereas councillors sometimes have jobs, businesses and things like that. It means that ownership of the problem is invested in an officer who is plugged into the council s way of working, possibly has a better understanding than individual councillors, and knows, almost by the nature of the job, where to make contact with the relevant people in which department for the particular problem. We work together and have more contact, but we also have more informal contact. That makes it much, much better. Devolving things to the area committee, which these people report to and where issues can be brought up, also makes ownership of the problems more local, rather than people phoning in to a pretty impersonal and remote contact centre to report a street light out. They can contact the local councillor, who can contact a local response manager who is someone they know. That also helps to address the problem much more quickly and effectively. There has always been a desire and ability to work closely; it has just never had the structure behind it. The call comes in from the contact centre and the officer tries to deal with it as efficiently and effectively as possible. That might mean just making a phone call to whoever puts in the new bulb and that is it; it is done and finished. But there is a whole issue behind that about how we connect that action with the idea of democracy and having local representatives: Is it worth going out to elect them? I do not need to, because I just phone up the contact centre and it happens anyway. There is a whole area beneath that that makes it happen. I believe that bringing in the behind-the-scenes part of the service and making it pertinent to the whole experience of dealing with the council invigorates them to take part and think it is worth voting for someone and having contact with that person. They have done something for me; they have fixed my street light, whereas before we were one, two or three steps removed. Celia Gofton: From my perspective, the way of judging whether or not that relationship has improved is by looking at the member satisfaction survey. You will be able to see that far more of our members than national or regional members believe that the council is committed to this programme. That is quite a big turnaround. Our survey shows that we now have 87% member satisfaction with that interaction, compared with a low base prior to that. That is roughly over the same time. While the journey will not be perfectly mapped because things shift and change over a period of time, I think it is best described by that level of satisfaction. Dr Smith: To complete the picture, as well as the practical measures we have taken, I want the Committee to understand that the journey the council has started on will continue. It started by the leader and me setting out to the whole council, both members and officers, that it was about partnership. At the beginning, it was about our partnership in leading the organisation and supporting the city s development. It was leading by example, and supporting that by a programme of activity that both the leader and I have been involved in to demonstrate and articulate the unique roles that officers, members and council play within the city. That was important to build confidence both among the officer corps and members that change was going to enhance those unique defined contributions, and it was seen as contributing a positive development rather than being a threat. That process has been going on in practical steps, as the leader said, as well as in constant dialogue, not just from the leader and me but also the cabinet and senior officer team working together, demonstrating to the rest of the organisation how that benefits all of us in terms of better services and a better council. Q97 Bill Esterson: Councillor Watson, on the efficiency of this approach, you were making the point that it was no longer contact between the resident and the call centre; now councillors are involved. As to the financial effectiveness of it, have you found it is saving money or costing more money? Is it difficult to say, or is that not really the point anyway because it is about democratic involvement? Paul Watson: I can see how you would say, Look, there s another layer in the middle now. It works the other way. I am absolutely certain that in a second Dave and Celia will tell you exactly how it works and give you the figures for it. You can imagine the problem is seated in that community and has to be taken up from the community to the call centre, or by whatever means the person chooses to contact the council. It is then put into our processes to come up with a solution, and the councillor, various cabinets and the area committees are involved. Where the seat of the problem is, whatever the issue might be, can quite often be resolved locally, and so could everything else. Q98 Bill Esterson: That is because of the local knowledge of the elected members. Paul Watson: Absolutely. With that interaction, people see it and have trust in their local person on the ground. If you have to say to them, I m sorry, but we can t stop the kids playing football on that field; that s what the field is for, rather than going through reams of protests and petitions, quite often people understand that you are looking for the best solution for the community, and there has to be a different amenity for different users and people. Once you gain their trust, they have better acceptance of some of the decisions. Although outwardly it might look as though we are putting in another layer, quite often we take other layers out. I am sure the chief executive can say more about that and give you the figures. Dr Smith: By way of illustration, the council in the last three years has saved 100 million without any significant reduction in service delivery. I think we are now the only council in England that provides adult social care across all four FACS bands. We still provide for all levels of need within our community. We are not a high spender; we are a middle-of-therange spender on social care. We have sustained that level of service and saved 100 million. In essence, we have achieved it by saying we are going to improve services and, through the service

96 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 26 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Celia Gofton and Dr Dave Smith improvement, save money, and we have delivered on that. Q99 Bob Blackman: I can see that you are itching to get in on particular issues, but we are a bit short of time. What we want to do is look now at the devolution arrangements. Can you just explain the difference in Sunderland s terms between an area committee and an area board? Celia Gofton: I have asked people to think about an area committee as a mini-council for their area. We have five parts of the city, of which you will be aware, based on regeneration areas in the past. We bring together in an area committee all councillors and partners and hold a public council meeting, very like a mini-council. When I first came into this role that was how I had to view it to begin to understand it. As you will be fully aware, in any council or very formalised process where partners and the public are involved, to make that also a working group is virtually impossible. You cannot do it; you sit here because that is not possible within Parliament. In the same way, when we have what is effectively a minicouncil for an area, we have needed to capitalise on the momentum building up with the community leadership programme and responsive services and gather all of that energy into something that would do the job of delivering outcomes. We sat with key officers within the council, the leader and chief executive and decided that the thing to do would be to create a board, if you like. At first, we were thinking of a single board that would, outside an area committee, be a workhorse to deliver the area committee s priorities. The area committee would always be sovereign, if you like. They would set their priorities and have collectively an all-party understanding of what their area needed, but in order to deliver those priorities we needed a workhorse. Events very quickly overtook us and we called it a place board, and it became very clear that we needed a people board as well. What is more difficult with a community leadership programme, believe me, is keeping a rein on it, because there is such enthusiasm behind it. Q100 Bob Blackman: When it comes to decision making, is it the councillors within that area or the local people who make the decisions? How does that decision-making process work? Celia Gofton: The area committee has the decisionmaking power. It is a full committee of the council and as such it has that devolved power. The boards make recommendations. The boards and area committees work in partnership with the voluntary and community sector in their areas and with partners who have a direct responsibility for the things that go on in their areas: the big partners like the police, health, etc, and also smaller partners. That might be particularly specific to that area. It is through that system that decisions are made. Priorities are reached and decisions made. Q101 Bob Blackman: Paul, you have a leader cabinet model, and now you have these area committees and boards. What happens if the area committee decides something that is totally contrary to what the cabinet and you as leader want to see happen? Paul Watson: They will, hopefully, have the commonsense not to do that. As Celia says, it is quite right that legally and constitutionally the only committees of the council that we devolve executive powers to are the area committees. They produce a plan put by all of us, and there is a requirement for that plan to be absolutely in tune with the city plan, the economic master plan and community development plan. Therefore, their plan locally is in tune with that. Their actions and the way they spend their devolved budgets and develop their policy locally need to be in tune with that as well. If anything was absolutely contrary to it, we would have to make a decision about that, possibly at full council. It has never happened. Obviously, it is early days yet and it would need to work its way through, but, by and large, where in the past we have found things like that happen, somebody has had a very strong interest in a particular topic and maybe has pushed it to the detriment of the wider council. There are ways and means. We talk it through with the political parties and get agreement that we need to curtail some action that is not conducive to the best interests of the city or council. The area committee is the sovereign part of that and it will make the decision. If anybody below that is trying to go in a contrary direction, it always comes down to the majority vote. Q102 Bob Blackman: Dr Smith, what about the oversight of how the money is spent, making sure that councillors do not decide, I m up for election this year. I m going to push the money to this particular area, and it will be a quid pro quo: they ll want to vote for me because I pushed the money there.? How do you govern this area? Dr Smith: We have strong officer support to each of the area committees as well as central oversight of the budgetary arrangements. The balance to be achieved is to have strong oversight in the sense of understanding what has happened, but not to throttle the initiative either. In the context of the services that we are devolving, these are services that we consider are appropriate for local decision making. Q103 Bob Blackman: When it comes to a decision about spending money on a particular project, is it an officer who signs off on it and says, This is the right thing to do. I am quite happy that it is a good use of public money.? Dr Smith: An officer will sign that the money is available and within the delegated budgets that are available to the area committee, so area committees can make differential decisions. In one particular area a committee may prioritise X rather than Y; in another one, it may be A rather than B, and that is perfectly proper. It is not for an officer to determine those priorities, but it is for an officer to say that the available resources are there for the area committee to make that decision.

97 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 27 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Celia Gofton and Dr Dave Smith Q104 Bill Esterson: Dr Smith, how do you promote the benefits of being a councillor? Is that something the council itself does or is involved in? Dr Smith: We certainly are involved in that. We seek through all the media available to us, including our own media, to help communities understand that benefit. It is partly to do with the way we run elections. It is not really to do with the election itself; it is to do with ensuring that the community understands the importance of locally elected members, and the fact people stand for election and perform that role is an important part of that process. Q105 Bill Esterson: Is there more that you could do? Dr Smith: There is always more we could do. The reality is that we want to match the experience with the promotion so that communities and individuals see the marketing of the role and that it is fulfilled in a way that matches the promotional side. We try to take these things in tandem so that, as we press forward and people engage, their experience of engagement is a positive one and their expectations are met. Q106 Bill Esterson: Most elected councillors across England are members of the three main political parties. You have three independents. Do you think that independent councillors bring a different perspective to the role of a councillor? Dr Smith: All members of the council bring a particular perspective; it is not just a party-political issue for me. The way they behave and interact with their communities and with officers is different, because we are all individuals. In that sense the contribution is unique to the individual irrespective of party considerations. One of the challenges for us and the community leadership programme is to ensure that all members of the council feel enabled to work with all officers to fulfil their local responsibilities. As officers it is a constant challenge to us to build that level of trust and communication and effective working with all members of the council, whether or not they are in a majority group. Q107 Bill Esterson: Moving to the whole panel, the absence of minority councillors is something that the inquiry is looking at. Do you think that is a problem in this council, or not? Paul Watson: I do not know that I would describe it as a problem. If you try to determine, looking at the basic tenets of democracy, what this council s makeup should be, you may well assume that it should be reflective of the community it serves. In some ways, that is a cogent argument. However, I believe the true tenet of democracy is that the make-up of this council should be who the community wishes to elect and it may not reflect that. Maybe lots of men vote for women and lots of women vote for men. At the end of the day, the community will get the people it votes for, and I believe it is dangerous to tamper with those basic tenets. However, there is an issue in ensuring people are engaged with democracy and understand why it is important to be involved. If it was working better outside, we would have a greater diversity of people in the council chamber, so we are absolutely not doing enough to empower people who are not represented to become represented. It is not only, as the chief executive has been talking about, the machinery that gets people into the democratic process and to become elected members; there is also the need to understand it is probably wrong to describe it as a barrier how to join and become involved in political parties. The two main parties in our case produce over 90% of the elected members, so it is a matter of ensuring that the informal process of politics that exists outside on the ground is understood, and people are allowed to join in and become part of that. Chair: Thank you all very much indeed for coming to give evidence. I think we will be seeing you later on today anyway. Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Councillor Robert Oliver, Conservative Group Leader, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Leader of Independent Councillors, Councillor David Tate, Chair of the Scrutiny Committee, Councillor Dianne Snowdon, Area Vice-Chair, Washington Area and Labour Group Secretary, and Councillor Michael Mordey, Policy Member, City Services, Sunderland City Council, gave evidence. Q108 Chair: Welcome to our session and thank you for coming to give evidence to us. At the beginning, for the sake of our records could you say who you are and your role as well? David Tate: I am Councillor David Tate. I have been on the council for over 30 years. Don t take any notice of the hair. I have been there a long time. I did not wear glasses when I knew you, Clive. I used to be vice-chairman of AMA Highways. Those years have gone, and I wish they were back. I sat through Parliament and watched the dissolution at the time with a Sligoman, Councillor John Donnelly, if you remember, who used to be chairman of housing. I have known you for a long time. Like you, I have changed quite a bit. I did not wear glasses then and I had a bit more hair, and I looked young, but never mind. Because of the new arrangements, I am chairman of the only scrutiny committee, so I have been involved in scrutiny probably since its inception. That is really my role in the council. I am from the Coalfield area and only joined in the days of the metropolitan. We came into Sunderland in Prior to that we were in Durham County Council, so it was a big change to move from the sleepy old town I should not really say that into the big thriving metropolis. I am a councillor for Hetton ward. Robert Oliver: I am Councillor Robert Oliver, councillor for St Chad s ward. I am currently the Conservative group leader. Colin Wakefield: I am Councillor Colin Wakefield. I cover Copt Hill ward, and I am leader of the independent group.

98 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 28 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey Dianne Snowdon: I am Councillor Dianne Snowdon. I am councillor for Washington Central ward, and I am vice-chair of Washington area committee. Michael Mordey: I am Councillor Mike Mordey, councillor for Hendon ward and policy member for city services. Q109 Chair: You are all most welcome. I think it helps, David, if you do not tell the Chair that he has changed a lot since you last saw him. We will put that to one side. We have already heard quite a bit about the community leadership programme for councillors, but it would be helpful to get your respective takes on how well you think that has been working and whether you particularly have felt supported by it and that it has worked for you as well. There are five of you today, so if you all make a comment on everything and agree with each other, we will be here for quite a long time. If you agree with things that have been said, there is no need to repeat it. Who would like to kick off by giving their views on the community leadership programme? Michael Mordey: The inception of the community leadership programme took place when I was first elected to the council in My perception is that it has worked fantastically well. The area response teams are the best thing in my experience. If you have a problem in your ward and are rung up by a resident, you pick up the phone, in my case Nicky Rowland, the response manager for the eastern area, and within hours the problem is dealt with, if not resolved. Therefore, in terms of putting councillors on the front line and assisting us in our duties to the public, one aspect of the community leadership programme is the team of area response managers, and I think that is very worthwhile. Dianne Snowdon: Like Michael, I joined the council at about the same time. I did not become a councillor to spend my time mainly in the civic centre but to work in my ward. This process has enabled us to do more work and be more ward based. The formation of the people in the place boards and the area committees, as Councillor Gofton explained, will enable us to be front-line councillors and do more for the people who put us there. That is my main role. I am there to represent my ward, Washington and then the city. Colin Wakefield: The area response teams have been a tremendous success because they bring the council closer to the people and in many ways reflect what we had before. Councillor Tate mentioned that in 1974 we had smaller councils that were much more in touch with local people. It is probable that the bigger the council gets, the further away from the people it is, and this is a welcome step to bring councillors back to the people they are supposed to serve. Robert Oliver: I was a councillor before the community leadership programme. I have seen the changes and many have been beneficial to the way I have worked in my ward. What has been particularly useful is having an identified point of contact with council officers. We have a very large range of officers across a lot of directorates. I found that before it was often very confusing to know exactly whom you needed to talk to about a certain issue. That has been very good in the way the council has clarified exactly who does what, and what the points of contact are. It has been especially helpful to have one person in each directorate who is the first port of call. You could not expect councillors to know exactly what each officer does for everything, but there is one person to whom you can say, I have got an issue. I don t know who deals with it. I will send it to you, and that person can then send it on to the relevant officer and tell you where it has gone. That has been very helpful. Another thing that has worked well has been the increased use of IT to get information to councillors. There is so much information about the city and often it has been very difficult to break it down to ward level, which the councillors want to know. You might want to know quite urgently that a road has been closed in your ward, but you will not be in the least bit interested if a road has been closed in another ward. Ward bulletins have been very good at highlighting on a map exactly what is happening in your ward. Those are the two things I have found especially useful. David Tate: We did a review a few years ago. I hope this is what the leader has carried on. There was the cabinet and then the members, if you remember. We were not front-line councillors then; we were backbench councillors. Now we are front-line councillors and that makes a big difference. We did ask questions of what do you call them? Not the heads of service the big fellas, What happens after you have talked to your portfolio? How do the other front-line members, as we call them now, get to know? From that came the bulletins. We insisted that whatever they had was kept up to date, because when we go to ward surgeries we need to be able to contact that person. As Councillor Oliver said, members of the public are very impressed when we can make contact there and then and prove to the resident that it is there. We can do it electronically. We have ipads or tablets, or whatever they are called; we also have our BlackBerries, and there is instant contact with the city, if anybody is there to answer the phone. They always are, because the leader and his teams and the chief executive have put in place certain people. You will not get the answer straight away, but at least he will acknowledge the query and give an answer within seven days. That has gone from there to having people on the ground working in the area, so you do not have to phone the civic centre; you can go directly to them. I think there was a big reorganisation of officers. If you remember, Clive, they used to have their own little areas that they looked after. You could never contact them the chief officers; you could get the head of service. They are just about all gone now, and we are changing to a can-do culture instead of, We will go away and we will find out. Among the officers now is a can-do culture. If there is a way of doing it, we will do it for you. I think the leaders have led on that all the way through, as have the chief executive and cabinet. The only thing we have changed is the five or seven chairmen we had for scrutiny who were some of the brains. I have got for you this year s report on what

99 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 29 9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey we have investigated and done to help the council, because our role is to assist the council. We will never achieve what you do as a Select Committee. We have been told we are not Select Committees; we are just scrutiny committees, so we are here to help the council and bring them to account at times, as you probably do with Ministers, but with a great deal more, shall I say, result than we do, but the cabinet has always enlisted what we have suggested and what has happened. What he has done is to take all my chairmen off us and made them policy advisers to the cabinet. We have become one scrutiny committee but we have six scrutiny panels, two of which are chaired by opposition members. They reflect the aims and ambitions of the council, and they go away and investigate. I do not suppose you want to know what our investigations are going to be this year, but that is very interesting and is how we help the council provide what the leader and the rest of the council want. I do not know what happens in Parliament, but we have 75 members and 60 of them are in scrutiny. That is your role after that, but we still have to put some of the officers and portfolios right. We are not backbench councillors now; we are front-line councillors, and that is our job. As Celia said, we are mini-mayors in our own wards as well as being on the area committees. That is the way we should be looking at it. In the past I have come from committees right the way through to cabinet; I have seen the whole system. Nothing changes, as you will probably know, Clive; it all turns round, but I do not think we ever got this far bringing help to the people and meeting them, and it is a great thing. We are just starting to go into it in depth, and I think it will be a great thing for the people and the country. Bill Esterson talked about the money. Don t forget, we had to give the Government 85 million last year and we have 26 million this year, and we have 26 million to find from the years after. Not only are we streamlining what we do; we have to get value for money from the whole thing. We are keeping up; I think we are one of the best councils in the country thanks to the leader of the team. Q110 Simon Danczuk: Chairman, I did not realise you were quite as old as you are. You learn something new every day. It is all very positive, isn t it? I am a bit concerned that what we have heard so far is just all very positive. Robert and Colin, your job is to oppose; you are the opposition, aren t you? Are you getting enough support from the council and officers to be able to do your job and oppose? Robert Oliver: We need to be honest about the service delivery if you are making cuts. Many of the council officers in my area now have wider responsibilities and have less time to do some of the work that previously they might have done. I think that is an honest assessment of where we are with it. There have been some efficiencies and streamlining, but there is pressure on council officers to do more work. I was talking to my area manager recently, who told me he had extra responsibilities for looking after parks and crematoriums that he did not have before. That has an impact on cutting the grass in my ward, so that is certainly true. As far as concerns support from officers, the personal relationships between councillors and officers and the way you handle officers are important. Are you really giving them all the information they need? Are you having the meetings that are required as well? The structure put down here helps, but you also need to have site meetings and meetings with residents without the framework we have heard about to make things work. For example, in my ward a miniroundabout has just been confirmed. It has taken eight years to get there. That is really nothing to do with area committees or Sunderland Way of Working; it is to do with successive councillors and council officers negotiating and pushing that issue all the way through. That could also have been done without this. Yes, I am the opposition, so you would like a different take from me. We must not hype it up too much. Much of it was there beforehand anyway and much depends on things and personal relationships outside the structure. Q111 Simon Danczuk: Colin, in opposing do you get support to be in opposition? That is what I am trying to get at. You do not oppose everything, but you have to challenge the control and leadership of the authority. That is healthy for democracy, isn t it? Are you getting the support from officers to be able to do that? Colin Wakefield: I think you have to be realistic in this. There are three independents and eight Conservatives. The amount of opposition we can effectively bring is quite small, but we should not oppose for the sake of it either. If it is something good, we should do that. It can put officers in a very difficult position if the information we want is to oppose the majority of the council. It is unfair for us as members to do that to officers, so in that regard we tend to do our own research, etc. Some officers are more conscious than others of where their loyalties appear to lie. That is the reality of the situation. Q112 Simon Danczuk: Are there other training needs? Michael, you are relatively new to the council; there are others as well. Are there training needs not being met? Is anything required? Michael Mordey: I think the council has a pretty wide remit of training. If any member has any specific training they want, we now have an account manager to ask for it. There is not a restriction on what we can and cannot access; we literally just have to ask our account manager. All of us have got one, and, within budgetary pressures, that training and resource will be provided for us. Dianne Snowdon: We have all been encouraged. We take part in what we call the certificate for elected members, which is a course done with Sunderland University. That teams up with other councils throughout the region. You get 60 points towards a degree. You work in partnership and see how other councils work. A large number of Sunderland councillors have done that course as well. Robert Oliver: If I may make reference to training, being leader of the majority party in opposition the

100 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 30 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey main focus of my work is scrutiny of the council s policy. Most of the training in terms of information comes from the Conservative Party. An important role of your party is to provide that information to you. As far as concerns council officers, what you can expect from them is factual information, memos and asking questions about things. That has been good. To be honest, at times I have had concern that some controversial matters have been answered very, very slowly. That may be because of the nature of them. Council officers are aware that they should be exact and correct in the answers they give, knowing that the opposition is going to use them publicly and in the press. For example, if you ask a question about a controversy in the city where people are likely to be criticised as a result, it is right they take their time to produce all the necessary information, but the quality of that information has been very good. Q113 Bill Esterson: The Councillors Commission in 2008 said that in many councils officers regarded councillors as a nuisance. From what Councillor Tate said earlier, that may not be the case here maybe it is but I would be interested to hear some of the other witnesses describe the relationship as it is, and whether it has improved since the new Way of Working was brought in, probably at about the same time as that report. Colin Wakefield: Obviously, that is the case, and in the past it was probably more correct to say that we got in the way. Possibly what has helped us to focus on the fact we are all in this together is the reduction in the number of officers. It has possibly focused people s minds that they are also here to assist, and by and large that has greatly improved. There is still the odd pocket of resistance here and there, but I am sure the chief executive will look into that. It has certainly improved. Dianne Snowdon: I have never experienced that myself. I am relatively new. I have been in the role for four years and I have always found that the officers are there not to serve, because that is the wrong definition and if there is anything we want them to do, they will bend over backwards to make sure we are pointed in the right direction, and, if they cannot do it, the right person is contacted. I have always been treated with the utmost respect and dignity by our officers, and I cannot fault them. Q114 Bill Esterson: Councillor Oliver, how about you? Robert Oliver: One of the ways in which officers provide invaluable support to councillors is by way of information about legislation coming from Parliament. That is a really big challenge for councillors. Many ward issues are quite simple to understand, though not to deal with, but when you have big pieces of legislation coming out of Parliament that councillors are not expert in, a key role for the officers is to make sure that that information is passed on to them in a way they can understand. For example, the recent welfare reform proposals will have an impact on the city that we need to know about, but we cannot expect to be experts in welfare delivery and consequences. Council officers have done a good job in breaking it down, keeping out of the politics of whether it is right or wrong, in terms of the impact on your constituents and what you need to look at. That has happened consistently over the years. The policy and legislation briefings have been manageable. Q115 Bill Esterson: Moving on to a related question, do you think that officers are sufficiently politically aware? If not, would they benefit from political training? Perhaps Councillor Mordey would like to answer. Michael Mordey: In my experience, officers always act with the utmost professionalism. They are aware that councillors are political. We are political animals by nature, but in terms of officers, in their capacity without a shadow of a doubt they act with 100% professionalism in my experience. Colin Wakefield: Are we talking about Russian-type political training? Robert Oliver: I would agree with everyone else that the council officers are impartial and have done a good job of maintaining their impartiality. When you have a change of government, it is especially important that council officers realise there is a different way of working. For example, with the demise of the RDAs and the rise of the LEPs, you are moving from grant-based to more incentive-based help for business, so it is important council officers realise there is a new game in town politically and they will have to latch on to something new. Maybe it could take a long time for that culture to seep through if council officers and the Government have been there for a long time, but in general the response to the new LEP, for example, has been quite positive. Council officers realise that that is where the money is going now and where council policy has to go as well. Q116 Bob Blackman: Moving on, we have a wide range of levels of experience on the panel before us, and people are motivated to become councillors for different reasons. Equally, one of the other aspects of this inquiry is how people become councillors. Can I ask each of you to explain very briefly why you became a councillor and how that came about? Michael Mordey: The reason I became a councillor is that I grew up in the ward I represent. I wanted to effect a change in the ward and contribute and give something back. I studied American studies and politics at university. I joined the Labour Party when I was 15 and became involved in the local branch. I went up to the constituency party and then the wider city party and generally became more involved in the party. In time more doors opened. I thought, If I can do that, maybe that will open. Being involved in the party at the grass roots is the first step. That was how I started. I am now into my second term as a councillor and I am thoroughly enjoying it. Grassroots local party politics is where I got my start. Dianne Snowdon: I became involved as a school governor to start with. It opened my eyes to the fact you needed to be in it to win it.

101 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 31 9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey Q117 Bob Blackman: Did you become a school governor because your children were in the school, or were you motivated in the community? Dianne Snowdon: I became a parent governor because my son came in from school and said, Mum, will you become a parent governor? I got quickly involved and became chair of governors, and then ended up fighting the school closure and the council. I did not want my school closed. Q118 Bob Blackman: Did you win? Dianne Snowdon: Yes. The school governors gave me confidence to do other things. In another life, I spent 15 years as a battered wife, so I wanted to put something back. Once I got confidence in my role as school governor I got more politically aware and joined the Labour party late in life. I got involved and did eight years of grass-roots campaigning, and then went on to become a councillor. I have been around the block a bit. Colin Wakefield: It is a question I have sometimes asked myself. I became an independent councillor because I led a group of local residents who were opposed to a massive landfill sited in the centre of Houghton-le-Spring. It was suggested at one point that we were not representative of the residents and were just a bunch of crackpots. The second part of that may still be true. As a group we decided to challenge that, first in It was a pretty strong Labour ward. I won the election as an independent. Once I had won it, it was a case of, Now what the hell do I do? We have grown in strength from that. All three independents are associated with that campaign and are active members. I do not have any great political affiliation to any party; I am not a member of any, but in many local issues independent is quite often the right way to go. There is not a political dimension if you need a zebra crossing or something like that; there is or is not a need. That was how I got involved. Q119 Bob Blackman: You do not have any party support. You have an overwhelming Labour majority against you. How can you get things done for the benefit of your residents compared with, say, a Labour councillor in that particular ward? Colin Wakefield: The short answer is probably stubbornness. People do recognise what is right and wrong. Obviously, it is not the only issue, and we work quite hard. I think that as an independent you have to work a bit harder when you do not have any party support behind you. As I said, sometimes I ask the question of myself. Robert Oliver: Similar to Councillor Mordey, I did politics at university. I have always been interested in politics. My family had a political heritage. My father worked in the NHS for a long time. My greatgrandfather was a Whitehall civil servant and probably acted as Clerk to one of your Committees a long time ago. I have always been very interested in politics. The chance to become a councillor in St Chad s ward popped up by chance. I happened to live in a marginal ward. I got into politics slightly by chance, but I have thoroughly enjoyed it. As Councillor Wakefield said, many people who become councillors want to do something in a ward; they take the view that you have to put yourself up for election you have to do something rather than just complain about things. You have to be involved and be active. Many of the issues of your ward are not political at all. Getting traffic lights changed, getting a mini-roundabout and getting the streets swept clean are not political at all. Because of that many of your supporters might not necessarily be affiliated in voting terms to your party. One of the good things about being a councillor is that people will support you even if they do not support you politically. That cuts both ways of course, but that is the way I would like things to be. I would like people to say, We will support that person as a councillor because he does a good job in the constituency, not just because of the heritage of voting in the city. I have worked my way up and become leader of the opposition. The opposition is very important in any city, especially in Sunderland where one group has ruled for a long time. It is important there is a vibrant and robust opposition to it, not just opposing for the sake of it but opposing to put forward alternative ideas. It surprises people that sometimes things do get taken up from the opposition. You have ideas or ask questions, and suddenly the leader of the council says, We are going to do that, or, We are going to respond to it. It does not happen that often, but occasionally it does and I can say to people that the opposition is worth while. One of the problems for the opposition is that people say, You ve got only eight councillors. They re not going to take any notice of you; they ll just steamroller it through, but, since you represent quite a lot of people, often the council, even where the majority party is very dominant, must respond to constructive criticism from the opposition, because it is speaking on behalf of a lot of people. Q120 Bob Blackman: Part and parcel of your role as leader of the opposition is to identify potential candidates to come forward for the party and to stand. When you have got such a large majority against you, naturally people within the community will say, I d like to stand for the council but I ve got no chance as a Conservative; I ll stand for Labour. How do you persuade people to stand up for the party, stand for election and possibly get elected? Robert Oliver: You are right; that is difficult, but often party support is concentrated in certain wards. There are a number of wards in the city that have been Conservative for a very long time. Those wards will attract a lot of candidates. Fulwell on the coast is traditionally one of our safest wards. The last time we selected a candidate 10 people were interviewed. That is quite a lot when you consider that some MPs get selected when there are only three on the final panel. We can attract people when they feel they have a chance of winning there. We can also attract people on the basis that they are not likely to win in a ward but it will be good experience. Maybe I can run a campaign, get a bit of money and then move up. The Conservative party tends to run the selection in the

102 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 32 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey sense of a ladder. You have got to start off with a nohoper seat there are plenty of those for us and if you do a decent job there and help out with other people, maybe you can move up as vacancies occur in safer seats. We tend to attract people in that way, but there are no two ways about it: when you are on the up and your party is not in government, you will get lots and lots of people interested. The flipside is that people will say, I m not so interested anymore; I ll wait until you re popular again. Q121 Bob Blackman: David, you have been a councillor for a very long time. I do not want to review everything you have done, but I put just two quick questions. Why did you become a councillor in the first place and what motivated you to do it? Is it better now than when you started? David Tate: I started with the council in 1979 when Margaret Thatcher was in power, so I have gone through all this. The catering is worse now than it was then, but I am not really a judge of that. I worked at the pits; I worked down the mines. I thought there was more to life than work. My dad was the Young Socialist organiser for the constituency. I have been in the Labour party for ever. I thought I could do a job. A lot of the training and stuff that goes on now is how not to be a councillor, because it is all the things that you cannot do. You have got all these standards boards and others. I came here to represent the people who elected me, and I might be economical with the truth, as a lot of politicians are, to try to get things for my ward. Q122 Bob Blackman: So, you are a great fan of Eric Pickles, who has abolished the standards board. David Tate: I thought that was why I came. I am sure Clive was the same when he first got on. We did not come on for money, like they do now. We only got paid from We used to get just 10 a meeting, if you had a meeting. You did not get paid for holidays, so I did not come for the money; I came to represent people. Like Councillor Oliver, the opportunity came because in my area you had to be 50 to 60 before you were even considered. It was a strong Labour area. Unfortunately, the mayor at the time, who came from Hetton, died. He was 59 or 60. My other two colleagues were in their 60s. I came on at 36. I was a rising young star at that time, and I had to face Margaret Thatcher. It has gone from there. Clive will probably tell you that the committees thought they had some power but the officers had a lot of say in them. We had council meetings every month. All of the subcommittees for the seven areas had to be looked after, so you were pretty busy. I think I am busier now. We were told we would not be when the cabinet system came in, but we have more meetings and are more involved. In this council I do not know about other councils we are bogged down with training and coming in for committees and other things. Q123 Bob Blackman: You have obviously got concerns. Given your range of experience, what would you say to the leader here is your opportunity about how to change it to make it better for you as a ward councillor? David Tate: That is a question that needs to be asked and the leader needs to give us an answer. He has all the people; I have not. I think we need to be able to spend more time in the wards, because he expects us to be on call and ready at a minute s notice. The leader thinks everybody should be like him, working for the council 24/7. We are, but to carry out that function we need to spend some time in the ward rather than being in the civic centre or doing other things. I am sure some of the newer members are the same. We have more meetings now than we ever had. We have training and scrutiny. Now we have the people boards, the area committees and the other boards. I am a governor of four schools, so it is always very difficult. Don t screw your face, Bob; that is the life you live. There are five schools in my ward. I just go through the small things that were achieved, which you did not ask us to do, Bob. Reference was made to a roundabout. I have got a golf course. As you can imagine, the coal mining area was destroyed. I am not blaming Maggie; by the time, we had nothing left. In the time under Labour, not particularly under this leader, but we have had bad things for this area. We have got country parks. I have three in the Coalfield area. We have Hetton country park. When he came to see us, he did not believe what we had achieved. We have the Hetton Centre Library all the books and the whole community centre built for 2 million or 3 million. We have just had a new baths built for 6 million. We have had three new primary schools built under Labour. It has totally changed. Q124 Bob Blackman: You have broadcast how wonderful things are, but is it better now as a councillor than when you were first elected? David Tate: I have to think about that, Bob, seeing that the party you represent is now in power and we are going through this recession, whoever s fault it was. It is very difficult to say. Q125 Bob Blackman: Don t worry about the politics. I am interested in the role of the councillor, because it has changed massively. David Tate: It is massively more involved. As a councillor you do not have to be chairman of portfolios you are more involved; you have to be because you have to face the problems that arise for the residents you represent, especially if you are a Labour party member. That is what I would say. Q126 Bill Esterson: Briefly hopefully I want to come back to what Councillor Oliver said about being in opposition in an overwhelmingly controlled council. Are there dangers in having very large majorities on councils? In some places there are no opposition councillors at all. There are some Labour and Conservative councils in that situation. Is there a problem with that, and is there a solution to it? Robert Oliver: There is a problem and the solution is probably what the people decide. I think that in Lincolnshire there is hardly a Labour councillor, and in a few places, for example Newcastle, there will be

103 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 33 9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey hardly any Conservative councillors. One has to respect what people have chosen, but where you do not have an opposition there is a problem because who then is going to do the scrutiny? Who is going to pick up matters when things are not right? It probably then falls to the local business community, and that is difficult because that is not officially a role for them. Q127 Bill Esterson: Given that there are not that many of you here, are there enough of you to be effective? Is there another element to it? Robert Oliver: Over the last four years or so we have gone down from 22 to eight, so there has been a significant fall. I feel we have enough, but how much you can really do is a bit difficult. If you look at the number, there are more issues than there are opposition councillors, so you have to cut your cloth accordingly and focus on the issues that are really important to the people in the city. As to the role of the opposition, you are opposing where you feel that the ruling party has not got it right, but you also have to have a quieter role in working with the majority party to push things on and get things done, especially when your party gets into government. The last year or two have been quite interesting. With Councillor Watson I have worked behind the scenes on a number of things that have been offered to the city, either locally or nationally, to try to push them on and increase the volume of the voice of the city at Westminster. Probably the best example is the New Wear Crossing, commonly known as the iconic bridge, where all the parties worked together. To be fair, it was in the pipeline under the last Government, but the final funding came under this Government. There is an important role for the opposition to play there. I wrote to Justine Greening about it and said, Look, the city needs not just a bridge there is a case for that but economic stimulus as well, but it was also good for the city politically. If a Conservative Government gets into power and starts delivering for a place that has not had a Conservative MP for 40 years, people will start to say, Maybe you are more of a one-nation party than is made out; maybe you are reaching the parts that people say you re not reaching. There is also a role for the opposition there, but I would not deny that with fewer councillors what happens is that a lot of the work gets concentrated more in the leader and deputies. Q128 Chair: Councillor Mordey, at a time when all your friends are out enjoying themselves, you are stuck in council meetings and monitoring pavement repairs and things like that. Don t they think you are a little odd to choose this way of life? What would you say to other young people to get them involved? Do you think there are barriers to them becoming councillors that we ought to be tackling and trying to deal with? Michael Mordey: It is true that a lot of my friends think I am a bit geeky, but, at the end of the day, I tell them that in the council I get to make the decisions. People have elected me to come to the city council as part of a majority group to effect change in the city where I live. The drawback is that sometimes you sit in this council chamber until 10 or 11 o clock pulling your hair out and wishing you were at home, but it is a huge honour and benefit to be here. I was 22 when I first got elected. The biggest barrier is juggling work and family life and council duties, especially if you are a young woman or man about to start a family. If we can get the balance right between work and civic life, that will encourage a lot more young people. A number of them think, I just haven t got time. I m 22; I want to be out on the town with my friends drinking and socialising, not sitting in a council chamber until 11 o clock at night, but, if you can break down the barrier and perception that it is all about white, grey, middle-aged men and, once you are there, you can effect change, I think they will do it. Q129 Chair: These are barriers that councils can help break down. We talked about the work/council activity balance. Is there anything more that could be done to help people who have got jobs to be councillors? Michael Mordey: There are always more things you can do. Our council meeting starts at 6.30 at night. Apart from the structure of the meetings, councillors diaries are getting bigger and bigger and we have not got room for much more. In terms of evening meetings, the council could provide childcare. If you have children, day childcare could be provided. As to physically doing more, I think a councillor has to be able to juggle both. You must have the will to do it. You will not get people to come on the council who do not want to do it. They will quickly find they cannot do it and they will either resign or see out the term. You must have a willingness to do it. Most councillors who are elected are rare beasts. Politics interests them; for many people, it does not. Just being able to juggle things better will effectively encourage more young people. Chair: Thank you all very much indeed for coming to give evidence to us. It has been appreciated.

104 cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Ev 34 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Councillor Paul Watson, Chair, Councillor Jeff Reid, Leader of Northumberland County Council, and Councillor Judith Wallace, Deputy Mayor of North Tyneside, Association of North East Councils, gave evidence. Q130 Chair: Thank you very much for coming, and welcome to our inquiry. For the sake of our records, could you say who you are and the organisation you represent? Judith Wallace: My name is Judith Wallace. I am from North Tyneside Council and I represent St Mary s ward. I am deputy to the elected mayor, and I am also leader of the Conservative group. Paul Watson: My name is Councillor Paul Watson, and for these purposes I am Chair of the Association of North East Councils. Jeff Reid: My name is Jeff Reid. I represent Plessey ward in Northumberland County Council. I am also the leader of that authority. Q131 Chair: You are all most welcome. What we are trying to get at in our inquiry is the extent to which the role of councillor has changed over the years. Perhaps you would say a little about that, and whether from your experience councillors now perform a very different role from that which they would have played 10 or 20 years ago. Judith Wallace: I have only been a councillor since 2007, Chair, so it is a little difficult for me to compare going back 10 or 12 years. I do not feel that there has been a change within my five years on the council, although my role within it has changed, because initially I was an opposition councillor. With the election of a mayor of a different political persuasion, my role within the administration changed, but I still feel that we do have a very active role within the ward representing ward concerns, whether it be paving stones or whatever and, of course, the involvement in the policy decisions, which are partly political. Jeff Reid: I have been involved, more or less, since 1973 I am older than I look. I was on the borough council at Blyth Valley and then there was local reorganisation four years ago and all of the districts went, so Northumberland is a unitary. As you can imagine, the whole thing has been turned upside down from when I joined Blyth Valley, a ward with three members, from emptying bins and street-level stuff to the strategic monster that Northumberland is now, but still trying to make sure that the bins are emptied and the streetlights are on. I have seen an absolutely massive change, and from being elected to a group that was in opposition to becoming leader of a council is a quantum leap that you cannot measure. My own personal political career has been probably more extreme than most. Q132 Chair: To follow up on that, apart from your own personal position, you obviously oversee councillors as well and look at what they do, as backbench councillors, in their daily work. Is their role now different from what it was when you joined the council? Are there more responsibilities for them? Are they being pushed out by the cabinet system? Is there a difference? Jeff Reid: Yes, there is a huge difference. The districts dealt with more neighbourhood things. Blyth Valley s budget was 10 million. The county council unitary s budget is 458 million. That in itself is difficult for people to get their heads around, and the kinds of thing that a district councillor had to know have been swallowed up by all the strategic stuff that needs to be considered now. Does that answer your question? Chair: Thank you. Paul Watson: I think it has changed absolutely dramatically in the last decade and a half. Certainly from the legal position, where we were committee run and had committee systems to a cabinet and a leader, and then the possibilities of, lately, local elected mayors, it has changed unrecognisably now, I think, and the role therefore needs to change as well. I think, also, the changes are being driven more by technology and what you are expected to know. You cannot hide anywhere now and say, I was not aware of that. It is hitting you 24/7; you should be aware if you are awake and you are not unconscious. I think the role is absolutely different. In essence, I think it is the same role about representation and about caring for your community and making sure you look after your community in the best possible way, but the role and how you do it is vastly different. Q133 Chair: Councillor Wallace, does the different model of local government you have with an elected mayor make a difference to the role of councillor? Judith Wallace: Throughout my time on the council we have had an elected mayor. North Tyneside is, perhaps, unusual in that, in the decade we have had an elected mayor, we have had different political persuasions, and I think for only 10 or 11 months we have had the elected mayor of the same party as the majority party in the council. So it has always been a mixture, shall we say. Regarding whether it makes a difference to the role of councillor, we have the elected mayor as head of the executive with the cabinet, and then the back-bench councillors within that party. So of course it is important for the mayor and cabinet to keep in touch with the back-bench councillors and endeavour to explain the decisions and so forth. Of course, we have a very lively opposition still endeavouring to both represent their wards and oppose on policy issues too. Q134 Bill Esterson: We heard earlier about Sunderland s experience of devolution. Perhaps I can ask Councillor Wallace and Councillor Reid about this. How much decision making is devolved within your authorities and how important is it to do that? Do you want to go first, Councillor Wallace? Judith Wallace: Decision making to the mayor and cabinet? Q135 Bill Esterson: No, within the wards. We heard earlier about the area committees and the devolution within Sunderland, either to area committees or to what you might call back-bench councillors to make executive decisions. Perhaps it does not work within your borough.

105 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 35 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace Judith Wallace: Within our borough, we do not have ward committees; we have area forums. The borough is divided into four; each has an area forum, on which the councillors for the wards within that quarter sit. They meet quarterly with the general public, and both the public and the councillors can put forward ideas for spending the environmental budgets allocated to each committee. At the quarterly meetings, votes are simply taken on the various projects that are put forward, and so the votes are a mixture of the general public and the ward councillors. That is how the devolution works there. Once the votes have been taken, the ward councillors then meet and decide upon the allocation of the money, and we do it on the basis that the most popular projects are successful, the least popular are not, and then they go, ultimately, to the mayor to be signed off. That system has worked well for us. Jeff Reid: We have three area committees, but unlike Sunderland and North Tyneside, Northumberland is a huge place. There is a division called Bellingham and I have a few sparsity notes just so I get it right. The biggest division in Northumberland is 868 square kilometres. You could fit Newcastle City Council 7.7 times into that one division, so we have huge problems of bigness, for want of a better word. 50% of the population live in 3% of the area. Therefore, Northumberland is twice as sparse as it might appear, because 50% of the rest of the population live in 97% of the area, so we have a big problem with an urban clump. I represent the smallest division, by area, which is about three-quarters of a kilometre, and you have Bellingham at the other end, which is as I have said. One of the high schools in the west area, its catchment area is bigger than the area encompassed by the M25. We have three area committees. As much as we can is devolved to those three area committees, but they work in very different ways. The area committee in the south-east is dominated by the Labour Party and the others are Lib Dem-Tory splits. As much as possible is delegated to them, but the real decisions come back to scrutiny in their cabinet, because it is the only way politically we can make it work. Q136 Bill Esterson: Since the cabinet model came in and, in some cases, the elected mayor model, is the devolution of significant budgets the only way to involve the vast majority of councillors in having power and control, or do you think there are other ways of doing it? Paul Watson: I am not sure. There have to be other ways, but obviously they say, What gets measured gets done. Well, what gets funded gets done, so if you have control of the resources, you tend to have the power to make things happen and effect change. I think it is important that any devolution, in any respect, shape or form, is resourced as well for that devolution to work, if it is not just a talking shop. At the end of the day, it is really important, in my opinion, that in our case the area committees are resourced to do that. I think it is more than ways of just devolving direct budgets to them: if we also have a city-wide budget, say, for cutting the grass, then whatever is their proportion of grass cutting, they can have control over it, whether it is once a month, twice or month or whatever. So they can affect the mainstream budgets as well, which indirectly gives them access to much, much more influence. Judith Wallace: I think necessarily there is going to be a conflict between the views of the individual councillors, or those in opposition anyway, and the executive, because the executive, of whatever political persuasion, having been elected to carry out those particular policies will wish to do so. I do not think anyone in that position would willingly surrender their powers to do so either. They have the mandate to bring forward those policies, and that is what he or she will wish to do, and it is by their success or otherwise that he or she will be judged when it comes to the next election. I think it is very important that all members are informed about what is going on. We do have regular members briefings to explain to all the back-bench councillors what is happening, and the officers are very good with their involvement in those presentations and explanations, and there is very often a lively discussion at those too. Q137 Bill Esterson: Just to come back to you, though, if back-bench councillors do not feel included in decision making, isn t there a danger that they will respond unfavourably in the long term, one way or another? Judith Wallace: Are you talking about back-bench councillors of the same party as the executive or all back benchers? Bill Esterson: All back benchers. Judith Wallace: I suppose there is always that risk. Overview and scrutiny, of course, is there to act as a critical friend. Sometimes perhaps it is felt that it is entirely opposition rather than a critical friend, but I think that applies equally on both sides of the coin. I think the opposition councillors can get more involved through overview and scrutiny and, of course, some things still have to come to full council for decision. For example, there are limits in the council s constitution on borrowing levels: anything over 1 million has to come to full council, and there is the opportunity for all councillors to be involved then. Q138 Bill Esterson: What about back benchers of the ruling group? Don t they feel excluded as well? Judith Wallace: That is something you have to be mindful of, and you have to endeavour to explain to your backbenchers what you are doing and to try to keep them onside, otherwise, yes, I think there is a risk that they would feel neglected. Although, of course, they obviously have a lot of work to do on committees throughout the council, but yes, I think it is a matter that you have to be mindful of. Q139 Simon Danczuk: I am interested in the councillor/officer relationship. Starting with you, Jeff, if we go along the panel, can you just summarise for me what you think the job of councillor leadership is as it relates to senior council officers? You are a leader of a council; what is your primary objective? What is your job in terms of senior council officers? Jeff Reid: That is an interesting question. I think my job, with the council only being four years old and the

106 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 36 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace Lib Dems not having overall control, is to act as an arbiter between the various factions and keep the council moving forward. My aim is to make sure that we deliver the budget we set, make sure that the council tax is at a level that people will support, and make sure that the officers engage with all the councillors appropriately. Q140 Simon Danczuk: Paul, how would you summarise it? Paul Watson: I do not think there is a one size fits all. I absolutely think that the relationships between the leader of the council, from whichever party, the other leaders of the groups and the chief executive are crucial to making any organisation work. The chairman and the chief executive roles are central to that. Obviously, you have to have a balance there between that mutual respect and getting into maybe too friendly a situation, because there are always times when you have to say, Just a minute; that is not the way our policy dictates we should go. Obviously, people militate towards doing their jobs as best they can. From a certain point of view, it would be much easier if everything was run just by a couple of executive people and you could go through the common-sense results, but I think that we bring a personal, a community and a more human side to that, where we knock some of the harsher edges off what could affect our communities. So I think really it is about doing the best you can using common sense, just forging ahead where you can and trying to, importantly, bring people with you. Judith Wallace: I think we have a good working relationship with our officers. Obviously, the executive have to explain what the policy is and meet with them regularly to ensure that the policies are put into action. We do meet regularly with the leaders of the other groups as well. The chief executive, the directors and the leader of each group have a regular monthly meeting at which any concerns can be aired, and we hope that that is a good way of trying to iron out difficulties and keep everybody onside. Q141 Simon Danczuk: Do you think the senior officers understand the role you have as councillors? Do they understand it, do you think? Judith Wallace: Yes, I think so. Q142 Simon Danczuk: Changing the subject slightly, I have noticed from speaking to councillors across the country that there are lots of cuts: they are losing the meals that they usually get before committee meetings; they are losing the car parking that they used to get free for council meetings; allowances have been frozen; and things like that. Are budget constraints impacting on the support and training that councillors get? Just briefly, if you would. Jeff Reid: If only I had ever been given a meal by the council. We have never done anything like that. Q143 Simon Danczuk: Ignoring the meals and car parking, what about in terms of support and training? Jeff Reid: As we were saying before, we have a budget, and if somebody wants to do a particular bit of training, then it is facilitated, absolutely. But as far as allowances and things are concerned, none of the staff has had a rise either, so we are all in it together. Paul Watson: About rises, there would be an insurrection out there if you were to give yourself a rise. We have an independent panel that evaluates what we should get, and two or three years ago they suggested we should get a rise and, independently, councillors rejected that and did not accept that rise. So I think there is some common sense there, but there are a couple of things about the question that are pertinent underneath that. As Jeff said, I think about Northumberland, and I do not know how far the furthest point away is outside Berwick or somewhere but a Northumberland councillor Jeff Reid: Sixty miles. Paul Watson: They might travel three hours, and what we have to be aware of is that we empower them. Some of the conversation earlier today was about barriers to people becoming councillors. If we are not facilitating fully and properly the ability of everyone to partake in the democratic process and be an elected representative, I think that is wrong and we should not allow that to happen. However, I absolutely do think that there should not be any excess there. There should be the minimum that is needed to enable people to take part and no more. Judith Wallace: We, likewise, have cut things like catering, and I have already teased Paul for the bottle of water that we have here today. He assures me it comes out of the taps fizzy in Sunderland. Things like allowances are frozen as well. There has been some carping in the chamber that our allowances are low compared with other areas. My personal view is that there are, generally, at least three candidates for every job, and I think the public would be utterly unsympathetic as to any rise in councillors allowances. Every penny that we spend is council tax payers money and we have to justify that on the doorsteps. Even if we are saying to people, There is 500 being spent, that is your council tax for two, three, four months or whatever, and we have to show that we have spent it well. As regards support for us, as councillors, we do still have the members team to whom enquiries can be directed, who find the appropriate officer within the organisation to direct that. I think that is more important for the back-bench councillors, who do not have the day-to-day dealings with the officers and do not necessarily know to which officer an enquiry should go. Those teams still work very well and I do not think they have been affected at all in terms of efficiency by the current financial climate. Q144 Simon Danczuk: My final question: according to a survey of councillors across the UK, a good proportion have a professional or managerial background before they become councillors, or in their work life. How important is that? Councillors are running multi-million pound organisations, aren t they? Is it important that they have that sort of background, do you think? Jeff Reid: I think it has become more important and that is part of the problem. To do this job you need no qualifications at all other than the brass neck to

107 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 37 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace stand on people s doors saying, Vote for me. There is a lack of capacity sometimes in people s understanding when you are faced with taking 100 million out of a half a billion pound business, which is what we have had to do. We have taken 101 million out in four years or something. Q145 Simon Danczuk: So you think it is helpful or beneficial that councillors have that sort of background? Jeff Reid: I think it is beneficial but, as I started to answer the question, there is no pre-qualification to do the job that I have. You just have to feel as though you can knock on doors and ask people for support and properly run campaigns, but I am not an accountant. I think it is beneficial to have people involved who understand the issues, not people who have got involved for all the right community reasons and then find themselves in a position where they just have not got the wherewithal, the intellectual capacity, to understand the position we find ourselves in now. Q146 Simon Danczuk: Do you have a different viewpoint? Paul Watson: Slightly, because I just wonder how Bob Diamond would have fixed Jeff s 100 million, so I am not absolutely convinced that it is just a professional or managerial qualification there. I think some of the people who survive on very tight budgets and worry about paying electricity bills and worry about paying rent can get it much clearer and much easier when it comes to saying, If you do not have any money, you have to cut it; you cannot use it. So there is some of that in it, but in truth, it has to be about the quality of the person and the ability of the person to understand. I think that is not confined to one sort of paragon of the community. I think, yes, it is nice to have people trained, but the point is we spend many millions each year on professional expertise, our officers get good money for their qualifications and their professions, and we get consultants in ad infinitum, so we should be well covered. Judith Wallace: I think there is room for all experience. It is beneficial, I think, if people do have the professional managerial background. Equally, it is good to have people who come from a different aspect and can look at things with a completely fresh pair of eyes. There is an awful lot of officer-speak in councils. I found that in particular in my first year when I was elected. I spent most of every meeting saying, What does this mean? What does that mean? There is a complete alphabet soup in a lot of public sector reports, and I think sometimes it is good to have people who do not come from that kind of background at all, who can say, Frankly, this is a load of tosh. What on earth does this mean? and can cut through that. As Paul said, you have your professional officers, hopefully, to give you the good advice for the good salaries they are paid. Q147 Bob Blackman: That takes me on to recruitment of councillors. The current position is that two-thirds of councillors across England and Wales are male, only 4% are from ethnic minorities, and the average age of a councillor is now 60 and rising. Does it matter and should we be looking for other sorts of candidate? Jeff Reid: I got involved in getting my mother elected in 1973, so I have been around the houses a bit. Does it matter? The total ethnic population of Northumberland is less than 1% of the 312,000 people who live there, so we are vastly white British. I think the proportion of females is probably under-representative of the population as a whole, because probably more women live in Northumberland than men. No, I do not think it does matter. I think that is what our society here is. Look at us this morning: here we are, all WASPs, aren t we, more or less? Q148 Bob Blackman: What about, in your case, younger people coming on? Jeff Reid: That was a long time ago. Q149 Bob Blackman: No, no, attracting younger candidates, because that is one of the challenges, isn t it? Jeff Reid: Is it? I am not particularly worried about whether we have younger members or not. There is a certain maturity needed in doing this and, as Judith said before, we have never had a shortage of people wanting to stand. My mother got elected in 1973, and about 18 months into it she realised she hated it. This is not for everybody. I have plenty of people contact me of all genders and ages, asking me to help them improve their lives or get something fixed or whatever. As long as that is happening; as long as there is not constantly a stream of older white men ringing me up saying, Jeff, I need you to help me. I would be more worried about that than the split of gender and age on the council. As you get older, you have kids and you put them through school, and then you have done your parenting bit and they have moved on, and then people think, I want to be more involved in my community. My son is a football coach in Northamptonshire, and I would rather he was doing that taking his son, engaging in football, running the team, making sure they all turn up than knocking on doors asking people to vote for him in some kind of election. There is far more community stuff going on other than this and, as I said at the very start, this job has changed. For me, certainly, it has changed immeasurably. It has become far more difficult to deliver what people want, because of the diminishing resource, so I am not worried about it at all. Q150 Bob Blackman: Paul, you seem to have attracted more younger candidates to become councillors, and more women, in comparison with other local authorities. Does that become more of a challenge, because these people want things to be different? Paul Watson: No. We have actively tried to make ourselves appealing, but getting away from political parties now as a council we have not done anything that we would necessarily change. Obviously, the success, if you want to call it that, is in how we are portrayed in the media and the things that we take a

108 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 38 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace position on, whether they are particularly relevant and pertinent to women or to young people or the BME community, which in Sunderland is around about 3%. You might well say that, out of 75 and 283,000 people in Sunderland, it might be over-representation if you had one minority ethnic person on the council, if you looked at it exactly like that. But the whole point is not, I think, about absolute numbers. It is about democracy, and I was saying earlier that we should be encouraging and allowing people to vote for people who they want to represent them, not putting some constraint by saying, Oh, your council chamber s only got 35 or 40, out of 75 people, who are women and you should really have exactly half. Is that true? Should we not be empowering people to elect the people whom they wish to represent them, because there are some big barriers to particular individuals? I think Councillor Wakefield this morning was saying that being an independent councillor and getting that single issue that propels them to prominence in their community and then allows them to develop a wider platform for policies and whatnot, and gives people the opportunity to vote for a wider, more disparate selection of people, is good. That is what we should be aiming for. Maybe we have too strong a hold on what is, in Sunderland, virtually a two-party system. Q151 Bob Blackman: Judith, you described your early experiences of being a councillor and the abundance of TLAs and jargon. What have you done to change that for other people following you? Judith Wallace: I have constantly told the officers where I think the reports are utterly unreadable and a load of gobbledygook and asked for them to be rewritten, and I think we have reports now that are more comprehensible. I hope it is not just that I have become used to officer-speak and adapted myself. Bob Blackman: They have not trained you and corralled you yet. Judith Wallace: Yes, I hope I have not succumbed to that. I think our reports are more readable and more intelligible, and we try not to talk in jargon anymore. Q152 Bob Blackman: Do you think that was a barrier to other people, such as you, coming on to a council in the first place that there was this mystique about what a councillor does? Judith Wallace: No, I suspect not. I suspect, in truth, most candidates have not read very many of the reports. Perhaps if they read a lot of them, there would be even fewer candidates. But I do not think that deters people. I think it has to be an enthusiasm, but perhaps in two ways: an enthusiasm for your area and the hope that it can be better and, in all probability, a political enthusiasm for one or other of the three main parties. Q153 Bob Blackman: Do any of you think that the hours that a councillor works and, in some ways and certain council positions, being the leader and other things; it is a full-time job are a barrier to anyone standing for election, and is there anything being done to reduce those barriers? Jeff Reid: I think it is a barrier. I fondly had imagined, when I was elevated to this lofty position that I have now, that I would be able to continue my work in the real world and squeeze this in somehow. I cannot do it. If you are not engaging somewhere, you have more to read than you and I have had hot dinners, and then you have all the ward work, with people ringing you up. I got here because I am connected with the community I represent, so you cannot just say, Sorry, I have something else on. You have all of that to do and you have all this to do. When you are not sitting in the position that Paul and I have, you may fondly imagine that you would do it differently, but you cannot. It consumes you. Being leader of a council is a full-time job. Other things, maybe not, and, as you realise, portfolio holders and scrutiny chairs get a percentage of what the leader gets, because it is deemed that, if this is a full-time job, then all of the others are part-time jobs. I guess that would be true if you were chair of a scrutiny committee in Northumberland. It is probably only 40% or 50% of your time. Q154 Bob Blackman: One of the barriers for you must be the sheer distances involved. Jeff Reid: Oh yes. As Paul was saying before, Berwick is 60-odd miles from Morpeth, where the council is held. When we set up the unitary authority, we thought to make it easier we would have committee meetings in the late afternoon and the council in the evening. Then it was pointed out that, for anybody living in the rural north, if you had a meeting at 6 o clock, they may not get in until 1 o clock in the morning, which is unsustainable. So we meet at 3 and, hopefully, get it over with by 6, so that when the dark nights are here, it is 8 or 9 o clock when some of them get home. There is a definite problem in the areas that Northumberland administers. Paul Watson: An overnight stay. Jeff Reid: Not more money. Paul Watson: I absolutely could not do this part time, and you cannot have a serious job and switch your mind between the two. We talked about people who become leader of a council being qualified to be doing something serious. I think the bigger impact as well is new councillors coming in. If you were to say to a cohort of young people leaving one of the universities as law graduates this year, Right, we want enough of you to get trainee solicitorships or pupillages, but even as a back bencher or front-line councillor, you would be turning round and saying, You need six or so hours a week on average. So you are going to start your job saying to your new employer straight away, before you start at the bottom, I need a few hours a week off to work as a councillor, or To go and do my duties as a councillor. If you were lucky enough to get that situation all round, then after four years, if you were to be re-elected or if you decided it was too much, then you are in a lump behind the cohort that you started with. When they ended up being partners in the firm, you would still, hopefully, be a senior solicitor somewhere, if you could manage to do it. All the professions would be the same, and then people would look around the country and say there was a dearth of people with the highest qualification, but no wonder. Time is critical in the early days of your career and building up your reputation and your

109 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 39 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace portfolio of work that you have done. So it does not surprise people, I think. That is the way it is and I am not sure what you would do to change that. Somebody gave me the Guardian from 1861 and it was mourning the dearth of young people in politics, and there always will be. I know Michael who was here giving evidence earlier is an exception, and Jeff, indeed he said, was one of the youngest councillors when he first started, but they have a need for public service in their families and whatnot. I think I would worry about a young person who had no connection deciding at 21 or 22 they wanted to come here rather than be in a disco somewhere. Jeff Reid: Thanks, Paul. Paul Watson: I think we want fully rounded members of society to come here. I think Jeff described very cogently the pressures in your life: you are starting out in a career, starting out in work, you need as big a mortgage as you can, and you have a couple of young kids. By the time you get them through and you are in your 40s, say, they may be up and at university, the mortgage is more manageable, you have found a place in your firm or your job that is not so time-consuming, maybe, and you find you are able to give. That is when I think people do give to their community in lots of ways, through community associations, school governors and various things like that. It is not surprising to me that public service as well benefits from that. Judith Wallace: A couple of points. For age, we have just had a councillor elected in North Tyneside who is 19. He is not in my group, but he is 19 and seems to be enthusiastic. The youngest councillor in my group was elected at 27 and he is a cabinet lead. So I think we are managing to attract young people, though I do understand the comments that have been made. We meet as a council at 6 o clock. We have considered moving it earlier, both from the point of view of family life and from the point of view of cost of officer time, but the overall view was that it was impractical to have the meetings in the afternoon. Secondly, I am not sure that it matters really what age people are, but that they are enthusiastic and prepared to give the commitment, and we are looking at a society that is ageing. We are healthier, mostly and hopefully, as we get older, and if people could, say, in the 19th century be very active politicians well into their 70s and 80s, I think it is wrong that now, in 2012, we seem to have a great pressure to encourage more younger people. I think the important thing is we encourage active and enthusiastic people. Q155 Chair: It is also about making sure that some people are not discouraged or prevented from standing. Just picking up the point about allowances, somebody in a reasonable job is not going to be a councillor full time, but they might take up a position so it takes them a day or two a week. If they are earning 50,000 or 60,000 in a reasonable job, should we really be asking them to make that sort of sacrifice, because they do not get paid to be at work for the day or two that they are on council duties? Is it reasonable to ask them to make that financial sacrifice to be a councillor? Are we effectively saying to some people, You are earning too much money to become a councillor; just forget about it. We will have the retired and the unemployed instead.? Jeff Reid: That is an interesting point, but in all of this I have never ever met anybody who does this for the money never. It is not the thing that drives any of us. I would be shocked if either of my colleagues Q156 Chair: Right, but often people do not do it because their families would be asked to make too big a sacrifice if they did. Jeff Reid: I have never come across anybody who said, I would stand if I had my earnings replaced. I do not think that is how people s minds work on this. I cannot think of any instance where somebody has said, I cannot afford to be a councillor. I have heard some people say, I cannot afford not to be, but that is another thing. In my experience, no one has ever gone into this because of the financial reward. It is more about being part of the community they live in, wanting to be a politician, and wanting to have a debate somewhere, not in a pub but in a committee meeting or a council meeting, arguing a view that they genuinely hold from a political perspective. There may be some people who say, I would not give up 10 grand a year to be a councillor, because I have a job that earns 50 and the replacement is not the same. I think most people would work round it, and if they really wanted it, then they would sacrifice the money. I have personally not come across that scenario. Paul Watson: I would not totally disagree with Jeff. I think there is a lot of sense in what he said, but there is another consideration there as well. People on that kind of money would also be saying, Well, it is not just me, and would I be selfish enough to make that sacrifice when I know it would impact on my family and there would be less resource for my family? I think there is another issue there. I am sure that the allowances you get count as a salary, so that then people who are on benefits do lose their benefits. I think there is a wider aspect when you are a councillor. I expect all our councillors attend residents association meetings and different services and things like that. They are expected to look reasonably presentable. They are expected to maybe put something in collection trays and things like that, and there are travel expenses that are not directly claimed. Sometimes, in that regard, it can cost you not a great deal but a little bit of money. At the bottom end as well, it can be prohibitive there when parties put their requirements on people about what you should do to be part of that local authority, so it can cost you a little bit. If you are on benefits and that reduces your benefit, you would find it really difficult to live in those circumstances. I think minimum wage is another consideration. If you think that you will work 37 hours or something for 6.50, or whatever the minimum wage is 6 and something you will come out with 210 a week. Reasonably, you will be paying 100 rent; you will be paying 100 to the supermarket for yourself, your wife and your kids to eat. So where do you get the clothing, where do you get the gas and electricity bills, where do you get the council tax from? It massively affects people who are on smaller incomes as to whether they can come on the council and whether

110 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 40 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace they can afford to do anything, because there is a trap there and there is unseen expense as well. So I think it is pertinent right the way through. Judith Wallace: I agree with what has been said. I do not think that people come into it for the salary or allowances, call it what you will, and I do not know how you solve the problem. I do not think there would be any support from the general public for increasing allowances. Indeed, in about 2009, when the MPs expenses scandal was in the press every day, there was a very definite change on the doorsteps: None of you are worth anything. You are all the same. You are not worth a bean. I have had people say that to me: Are you paid anything? That is absolutely shocking. I begrudge every cent. I can see that there is a problem, but I do not think people come into it for the money and I am afraid I have no answer as to how you solve it. Q157 Chair: On that final point, we will conclude this part of the session. Thank you very much indeed for coming to give evidence. Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Alan Wright, Chairman, City of Sunderland Conservatives, Councillor Tom Wright, Secretary, Washington and Sunderland West Constituency Labour Party, and Chair, Sunderland City Labour Group, and Geoff Pryke, Delegated Nominating Officer, Wearside Liberal Democrats, gave evidence. Q158 Chair: Thank you very much for coming to give evidence to our Inquiry. Just for the sake of our records, could we ask you to say who you are and the organisation you represent, please? Alan Wright: Good morning. I am Alan Wright, Chairman of the City of Sunderland Conservative Party, an ex-councillor; I served four years as a colleague of Robert Oliver, who gave evidence earlier four very enjoyable years. Unfortunately, I lost my seat this year. I have long argued that the chairman of the local party should not be a serving councillor, so you have to be careful what you wish for. I had a very successful career and wanted to put a bit more back into the community, and that is why I stood as a councillor on retirement. I did have a bit of an overlap, so I can sympathise with a lot of what has been said about how difficult it is to be a councillor and work at the same time. I had only seven months of it and it was an absolute nightmare. If you are a conscientious councillor, it is very, very difficult. Thank you. Tom Wright: Good morning. Can I give you all a very warm welcome to Sunderland? It is very good to see Parliament here. My name is Tom Wright. I am a councillor, 10 years in May, for St Anne s ward in Sunderland. I am a front-line councillor, and I was I nearly said lucky unlucky enough to have been on the cabinet for a year. I am also, through being a Sunderland councillor, Chair of the Tyne and Wear Fire and Rescue Service. Thank you. Geoff Pryke: Hello, I am Geoff Pryke. I am the Delegated Nominating Officer for the Liberal Democrats in Sunderland. Q159 Chair: We would like to explore with you, to begin with, the issue of trying to get people to stand as candidates for council. Could you just say, each of you, fairly briefly, what process you go through to try to recruit candidates? Particularly, do you identify the candidates or do they identify themselves and put themselves forward, as a general rule? Alan Wright: We use our local membership base to attract candidates for council elections. I personally write to all the members in our association asking if anyone is interested in putting themselves forward for interview to go on the approved list. We usually do get quite a few people interested from the membership. They then come in, go through an interview process with the management board, the leader and, usually, deputy leader of the group as well, and we draw up a list of approved candidates for the list. We have had a slight rule change recently that we have just incorporated into our association rules. We now write to everybody on the approved list to advise them of wards where there are vacancies, so they then can apply to the ward committee or the sector committee that covers that ward. If there is no ward committee structure in place, the management board will step in and carry out the selection. It is people who have applied from our membership base to be on the approved list, and then they are invited to apply for wards where there are vacancies. Our rules do state that sitting councillors will be shown a preference, but not necessarily exclusivity, for that seat. Tom Wright: We have a few processes. We have, as those of you who are members of the party know, a rolling panel anyway and it is ongoing all the time, but normally, round about now, the local government committee will be starting to think about next year s elections. We have a fallow year in Sunderland, but normally we write to every member in the City of Sunderland, which covers the three constituencies, to see if anybody is interested. Normally, within a ward, local councillors and local party members might identify people as well. In encouraging that, we have quite a few councillors who mentor people, and we have the odd one who might be thinking of retiring who will encourage someone. The party itself, about once or twice a year, does quite good mail shots or newsletters, which go direct to every party member to encourage them to think about being a councillor and coming forward. A ward with a councillor can fast track them if they want to and shortlist one. If they do not, they have to shortlist at least two. Some wards will have three, four, five or six and at least one must be a female. That was part of the Project 99 thing we set up, and if you want me to go into more detail I can, but that is the thrust of how we try to get across to our

111 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 41 9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke members. We have a panel now, even though we have not got elections until 2014, and we encourage anybody to come forward, hopefully in every avenue, to come on to that panel. Geoff Pryke: Our process is very simple: it is called coercion. We have about 50 members who cover the whole of the Sunderland borough and we try to get as many of those members to stand in wards as we can. We get a handful of people who really want to do it and the rest have to be persuaded. It is as simple as that. Q160 Chair: This may be more directed at the Labour and Conservative parties, given that particular answer, but when people put themselves forward initially and before you get to the selection by the ward, is there any form of interview process to decide that someone is appropriate to go on a panel for selection? Is any help and encouragement offered to people, maybe those who lack one or two things experience, a bit of knowledge to assist them in getting to the point where they are available for selection? Alan Wright: Yes. The process is that there will be an interview stage, as I said earlier, with a sub-committee of the management board, which would also include the group leader and/or deputy. They will go through the usual selection process: are there any skeletons in the cupboard that will come out and bite you in the future, etc? What are your main interests? What could you bring to the role of a councillor? What could you bring to the council? The selection is made from that. As far as encouragement is concerned, we have a fairly active membership in Sunderland and certainly a very active women s group in Sunderland and in the North East, which encourages a flow of women coming through. In the last elections in 2012, we had eight female candidates out of the 22 seats that we fought, so there is no shortage of females coming forward. I think through our executive committee as well we do encourage active participation. We encourage people to get involved in the debates. We inform them fully on matters that are going through the council large issues, small issues, issues that concern the group only. They are encouraged to take part in the debate around those issues as well. I think that encourages people who would be half inclined, maybe, to come forward anyway and stand, and it has brought through a couple of younger members who have stood in recent elections for us. Our normal process of functioning does add that encouragement to the membership base to come forward. Tom Wright: It is pretty similar for us. Once somebody is identified or has expressed an interest, the secretary of the local government committee or I think it is now the local government panel will send them some forms, basically to get their names and addresses, to identify that they are interested. They will go through some sort of formal interview. I think for the last 15 years we have used outsiders the opposite to the Conservative Party. We have used people from constituencies in Northumberland and Durham and Teesside to come in and interview them. It is a bit about looking at what they have done in the community, what they have done for the party and things along that line. There might be a couple of questions to see if they are aware of scrutiny or diversity or the role of the whips, etc. I like to think the panels are pretty positive and more inclusive. I do not think the word formal is the right word. They are not there to say, Are you up to scratch? Are you up to standard? It is a bit of an enabling process, I hope, and I think we have always gone on those lines. The other thing is, as well as being Chair of Sunderland Labour Group, I am a constituency secretary, and once anybody expresses an interest I make sure they get the dates and times of all council meetings and their area committee, so they can start coming along to see what sorts of thing are discussed and what is going on. Normally, I will have a word with them or get their ward councillors to have a word with them to keep that positive request going and make sure we are as helpful as we can be. There are a lot of things going on and we are lucky in the Labour Party that our regional office does run training for people who have expressed an interest and want to be councillors. I think we have three or four sessions in July and August for people who have never been a councillor, never been to a meeting, to try to give them more support on that side and get them just over that stumbling block, whether it is shyness or just the fear of asking that first daft question. Once you go to a meeting, you see everybody in the room asking daft questions and things like that, especially when they ask the daft question you wanted to ask. I hope we are as friendly and as welcoming as we can be. It is not everybody s cup of tea, but we do try to make sure that the journey, especially the initial journey, is as supportive as it possibly can be. Geoff Pryke: I think anyone joining the Liberal Democrats in Sunderland is probably not doing it because they want to be a councillor. They are doing it because of national politics, so it is quite hard. If you want to be a councillor, you would not join the Liberal Democrats, because you know you probably do not have a chance. Chair: On that happy note, we will pass on. Q161 Bill Esterson: I will resist commenting. Councillor Reid on the last panel said, to paraphrase, he was not concerned about the fact that he was of the main demographic that makes up councillors, as long as everybody who approached him believed he wanted to take up issues on their behalf. Is he right not to have that concern or should there be greater efforts to get more diverse representation as councillors? Tom Wright: I think he is right and he is wrong. It always depends on the person. He is right we want good quality councillors. I do not want women councillors. I do not want that. I want good women councillors and I want good black or minority ethnic councillors, the same as I want good men. More and more over the last few years, certainly in Sunderland as it has evolved, it is how you work in your community and the contacts you have, which are far more important than anything else. So what are you doing in your ward and are you not just maintaining the contacts but working for them?

112 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 42 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke I think that is very important, but I firmly believe that, to be a good council, to be a good Parliament, to be a good committee, the bigger the variety of input, the more information you have access to, the better the decision. In the Labour Party, back in the 90s there were lots of policies and things going on about equality and diversity. I started as chair of what we called Project 99, which was in 1997 but it was for the year 1999, to put in place policies and things, because Sunderland was 80% white, old male and 10% middle-aged male and 10% female. That was our aim, an aim I fully supported. It was my party s policy and it was also something I firmly believed in, because you get the benefit. If you go into a room full of estate agents, you will walk out with only estate agents opinion on anything. That might be right and it might be wrong, but you need, as I said earlier, that variety of input for you to make a more informed and better decision. Our aim was to get 40% female back then. Sunderland has always been hard in terms of the ethnic minorities, and it is a lot harder, because we are not like some cities and some big urban areas. We always seem to potter around the 2% to 3% figure for ethnic minorities. Therefore, our initial aim was to have 40% female, and I am pleased to say this year we reached 43%. Well, we reached %, but I like to round it up because 43% sounds better than 42%, but we did reach 43%, which people back in the 1990s said would be impossible. There have been some sea changes that have helped. If you look back four years ago, 40% of the councillors in the Labour group were not here. There were boundary changes in 2004 for the local authority and, in , for the 2010 Parliamentary election that came in and things like that. That helped some people to think about retiring, and obviously the changes in systems, such as from the old silo committee-type thing, helped people to think, I have done my bit; is it time? So there have probably been a few surges and so I am very pleased with that. Regarding ethnic minorities, Sunderland is a strange city. We always seem to be behind that, only because historically people coming into the country go to the areas where there are jobs, so Sunderland tends to be the last place a lot of these people go. But, strangely enough, we have some very, very good ethnic minority communities. We have a fantastic Bangladeshi mosque and community now. We have a wonderful Sikh temple and fantastic people down there. These people are really active in their communities and active in the whole community, but we have struggled to get them to take that step into politics. We have quite a number of them now who are members of political parties, and in Sunderland, over the last few years, we have set up the first Labour black and minority ethnic group, and we have one lad on one of the panels at the moment, as we speak, for the 2014 elections. A quirk is, when you go to the Sikh temple or the mosque or the Bangladeshi Community Centre, or even if you go to the Catholic church in one ward where we have a lot of Filipinos and a few Poles, these people are so active in their community but also so respectful. I do not think impressed is the right word, but they think it is an important role and they respect the role of councillors and politicians. If you can get the leader or the mayor along, it is better than The X Factor. It is a strange quirk of life, so how do we get them and push them a bit further? A few of us have campaigned and failed abysmally over the last 10 years. Do not get me wrong: we have had a couple of people come forward and then they have changed their minds. Q162 Bill Esterson: We have to move on, so perhaps we can get back to the question to Mr Pryke. Geoff Pryke: Can you remind me what the question was? Q163 Bill Esterson: Councillor Reid was saying it did not concern him that he was from the main demographic and that there were other groups that were not represented, because they would always come to him. Is he right? Geoff Pryke: I think I would agree with that. I think it is more important that someone wants to be a councillor than the colour of their skin or their gender or whatever. It is nice if you get a good mix, but I think the motivation to become a councillor is probably more important than anything else. If we started having rules so many per cent women, so many per cent this, that and the other I do not think it would work. Alan Wright: I agree with Councillor Wright on this issue. It would be a positive move if we could involve more people from ethnic minority groups in our respective parties to come through and possibly stand as candidates for the council elections. In our group, in we had one candidate from the Asian community. I think about 4.5% of our membership is from the ethnic minority groups, so we are keen to engage. Along with Tom and a few other people in this room, I attended an event down at the Bangladeshi Community Centre earlier this year. The event was held to try to explore why the people within the black and ethnic minority community do not engage so much with local politics. I think the one message that stuck in my mind that came back we have chatted about this was from the younger element: You do not engage with us. Why should we engage with you? and I think that is right. In the Conservative association, we are a small, active group, and we have been concentrating on elections over the last few years. As Tom said, there are no elections in Sunderland next year, so we are going to use the time that that has given us, as a political party, to direct our efforts towards recruitment. One of the elements of that will be to meet with officials from the Sunderland Bangladeshi Community Centre. Ms Sumati Bala, who is an equal opportunities consultant, has agreed to come in and talk to us about how we could open ourselves up to be attractive to people from ethnic minorities. We also have an invitation to visit the International Community Organisation of Sunderland, which I think is mainly Poles, of whom there are about 6,000 in Sunderland and surrounding areas. They do make up quite a proportion of the

113 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 43 9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke population, so we must be engaging with these people, and that is one of our next moves. As for women, within the association we have women in all the senior positions within the party organisation, such as deputy chair and membership deputy chair, finance etc. Our sectors around the city have a high proportion of women running them. Then there are the groups. I have already said we have a very active women s group, which fundraises and gets people interested and engaged. I think we are taking steps but, like Tom said, we are probably not as successful as we should be, as Tom is with his party. There is a lot more work to be done, but we have taken the first step on that road this year. Q164 Bill Esterson: You have talked about the minority communities. Are there other community groups that any of you look to recruit from? Perhaps Mr Wright again. Alan Wright: We have looked at younger members of the population in Sunderland. Student groups is one, and we have recruited recently four younger people, three of them students, two of them female, which is good. Previous to me, some of my predecessors tried to get into the universities to recruit, but they were actively discouraged from going to the freshers meets and things like that and setting up stalls. That is something that I am determined to explore. I have already talked to one of our younger members, who is here today, about getting into universities and recruiting, so that is something else we want to try to expand now that we have a bit more time to devote to it. Q165 Bill Esterson: Mr Pryke, do the Liberal Democrats do anything? Geoff Pryke: Really we are more interested in attracting members than attracting possible councillors, and we have been quite lucky: we have quite a good, diverse membership. We have ethnic minority people and women. We are trying to get some students, but have not been successful lately. But we have a good cross-section, and I think we will take our possible candidates from our membership. Tom Wright: Can I just make a couple of points? One is I think we are in a better position now, not in where we are but in the fact that city-wide over the last few years there has been a change in the attitude of a lot of the ethnic and minority groups. It is not just their own organisations that work together; we now have some city-wide groups where they meet and work together, and we are talking. As Alan said, we had a session about how these people got into politics, and there was a large group from the Philippines, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and South Africans. It was quite interesting and they are now working closer together. One thing about hard times and not a lot of money is we all take that as a challenge. You have to take it as challenge, so groups are looking at where they can work together on certain things and we have a couple of international organisations. On Sunderland University, I find it very strange, because we are lucky; we have had a bit of a surge of young members in Sunderland Labour Party over the last couple of years, which is quite refreshing, especially when you need somebody to deliver leaflets and they turn up with a gang. Sunderland University was not affiliated to the NUS, and I am not sure if that is the reason why, but they are a strange organisation when it comes to politics. I can go to Leeds University or Manchester University and talk to all political parties and groups of students. It is a lot more difficult with Sunderland University. As well as having an increase in young people, we have a very good active Youth Parliament and each year it produces three or four stars who raise the profile for your things. I never miss them. I have to be nice because they are going to be leader of my party in Sunderland in a few years time, but it is quite interesting that each year they manage to produce a couple of stars. We now have some active lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender groups who we know. Sunderland, last year, I was very pleased to see, had its very first Pride Parade. Always we have been in the shadow of Newcastle for anything like that. One of my first complaints as a councillor was that, in my first four years, I dealt with three cases of young lads who were gay and who went to live in Newcastle. Do not ask us why; it was a quirk of my ward: lesbians felt comfortable, supported and secure, but gay young lads still felt threatened. Maybe the old working men s club culture created that pressure. There have been massive changes in that, where you can talk to these people, and I hope I think they do that they feel safer living in Sunderland. They had to work in Newcastle, which did have a gay village and the pubs and clubs and the security and support built around it. Hopefully, these people now feel they do not have to travel. I do not have massive number of cases and it is not a scientific piece of evidence, but my evidence is that they do, so even though we are being a bit negative about minority groups, there are some massive, massive pluses and positives out there. Q166 Simon Danczuk: I am a bit concerned that politics in Sunderland is exceptionally polite. Some longer than others, but we have all been in political parties for some considerable amount of time, and we have all heard the stories about people being told that the local party is full so they cannot join, or selection meetings being packed out, or friends and family being recruited to the local party so that they can deselect somebody or get somebody selected and so on and so forth. If you think more widely not just in terms of Sunderland; you must know your parties in the North East and in other areas and things are there no shenanigans going on in terms of local selections and party politics at a local level? Tom Wright: If you think back to the 1990s, it has always been there and there will always be an element of it. A good councillor knows that to stay a councillor, whether you are the leader of the council or a junior back bencher, your ward every four years has to pick you. Hopefully, people are not daft enough to forget that. I have met leaders in the past who have forgotten that, and are leader of the council one week and the next week not a councillor. It is not just your family and that; it is the fact that you have a responsibility to the ward.

114 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 44 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke I was listening this morning to people talking about opposition, and Robert Oliver only having eight and Colin Wakefield only having three. You do not. I have 72 opposition people, because whether I go to a Labour group or council, when I stand up and tell them I want 10 million for Pennywell, there are 61 Labour councillors who do not live in my ward. Opposition might not be the right word, but whether you have a large opposition or a small one, you still have to stand up and justify what you are doing, more so in these days. You have to justify what you are spending money on, why you are spending, not just from the fact that the heavy pressures are financial. We have moral views and legal views and all sorts of things, so there is lots of pressure on us and lots of opposition. Sunderland has had very robust scrutiny over the years, and I am very proud of the history of our scrutiny. Do not think because I go to the scrutiny committee and there is one Tory and seven Labour that I have a safe ride, because it certainly does not happen. Most councillors will look at a piece of work and analyse it from the point of view of being a councillor first, a ward councillor second and then, maybe, a party member third. The one good thing my party did, and I have to be careful because it upsets a lot of people, is positive discrimination for women MPs and councillors. We have 10% women, but we gave it a lot of thought back in the late 90s when we did Project 99. Back then, I was local government secretary, so I was heavily involved and I was chairman of the project. You have got to be careful, because when you say, We want more women, you are also saying to your men, We want you out. Not you personally, but that is it. If I want 50% women in Parliament, which two of you four am I going to sack? There are two sides to everything and we thought about it. You have a mass of expertise and experience in older councillors, and you cannot afford to get rid of that overnight and change overnight. We brought in a simple rule: I think we had 17 wards that had three male Labour councillors in at the time, and the first vacancy had to go to a woman. Most of the people in Sunderland Labour Party could live with that. There were still some strong views anti: We do not believe in positive discrimination and women being fast-tracked and making it easy, but we did it. They still had to go through the full procedures to be a councillor, and they still had to be interviewed and they still had to go against other women on the night. But we just said, The first time there is a vacancy in that ward, and I am pleased to say this year, 2012, in the last of those 17 a male councillor retired and we now have a woman in every ward. I am talking about from the Labour Party s point of view. You have to be careful and you have to plan, but we were lucky. In 2006, when we were starting the campaign for the 2010 candidate and things like that, Sunderland was all men and we had Sharon Hodgson who had two wards in Sunderland and the rest was Gateshead. I am Secretary of the CLP. We knew it was party policy and we voted for all women. No problem. There were a couple of people who were not happy, but the majority, a massive majority, voted that we would have all women. It was party policy. It is important how you put these things across, because it is no good bringing in a policy that is good if you are going to alienate 40%, 50%, 60% of the people and overnight they are going to not be active and things like that. You might think I would say this because I was secretary of the local government committee at the time, but I think we did get it right. The councillors knew we were not going to kick any of them out the door and we did it naturally. It took 10 years. Q167 Simon Danczuk: So you managed it. Let me stop you there, Tom. Geoff, any horror stories that you hear, not just in Sunderland but around the North East? Do the Liberal Democrats have any viciousness in there? Geoff Pryke: We are quite a nice, placid bunch. We have felt in Sunderland that the Labour Party, in particular, and the Tories to some extent as well, wanted to eliminate the Lib Dems. A few years ago, we had two or three councillors, and when it came down to one councillor we lost any sort of I will give you an example. We used to use the committee rooms in the council office just upstairs to have our local meetings, because it was handy for everyone to travel to. Once we were down to one councillor, we had to pay for the use of the committee room at 20 a session and none of the other parties had to pay for it. So we felt we were being a bit victimised. We lost our only councillor in the May elections, so we feel it is an uphill struggle now to get back into the system. Q168 Simon Danczuk: Let me ask another question, and you touched upon this a little bit, Alan. It is a question to all of you. Do you try to choose candidates to suit the ward? Ethnicity is not a massive issue in Sunderland, I understand that, but you might have a ward that is predominantly Catholic perhaps. In a University ward where all the students live, you might pick a young candidate because you think they might be more likely to be elected in that particular ward. Does that come into it at all in terms of choosing candidates for each ward? Alan Wright: Yes, but not to a great extent. That is mainly, I would guess, through accident. We have St Michael s ward, which has a high proportion of students living within it. There are three long-established councillors, so there is no opportunity, nor would we want an opportunity, to bring in a new, younger councillor. We have three very good councillors there. But in the future, when a vacancy does occur, I think we will, yes, look at tailoring a candidate to the type of elector within that ward. Yes, we would need to do that. Q169 Simon Danczuk: Tom, do you have anything on that in terms of matching the candidate to the ward? Tom Wright: We do. There are 25 wards and normally you have a panel of 45 or 50 people. Of course, some wards will have a sitting councillor. We have had quite a sea change, and approaching half the Labour group were not here four years gone May. We have three wards that are unique in Hendon, Millfield, and

115 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 45 9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke Barnes, which is on the periphery, where the bulk of our Asian friends and members live, so we have had a couple of people come forward and the ward is interested in them. That is partly the fact that most of us want to represent the ward we live in. I love representing Pennywell. I was born there; I know it really well. When people talk about the streets, I played marbles in every one of those gutters, so it is a lot easier, because as a kid I ran up and down those streets. As I say, when you play marbles in the street you go down very slowly and you notice all the nooks and crannies and things. I could never be a good councillor for Washington, the new town part, although I have made a lot of friends over there and things like that, because I do not feel for it the way I do for this part of Sunderland and I do not know it and that culture. I think the wards unconsciously adopt that. We have a lot of councillors who do not live in the ward most of them do but who have a connection with the ward somewhere along the line. That seems to come out in ward selection. Geoff Pryke: Basically, we try to get people who live in the ward to represent the ward. Q170 Simon Danczuk: Finally, just very briefly, starting with you, Alan, why do some councillors choose not to stand for re-election? Some just do one term. In a few words, why do you think that is, Alan? Alan Wright: There are several reasons. Just quickly, I think people get tired of it eventually. It is hard work. If you are a committed councillor, it is not a part-time job. That is a fact. Family issues: they are not quite councillors, but we had three potentially very good candidates who withdrew this year for family reasons. I think it is a mix. I think people retire from it as part of the natural function and other people have to withdraw for family reasons. I think that is the main one. Q171 Simon Danczuk: In a few words, Tom, why do you think they do not stand for re-election? Tom Wright: More or less the same. We have had the odd one because of job commitments, but mostly I think it is when they come in for a four-year term and they realise what it entails. It is not just the pressures on your family; it is pressures on you as a human being, as an individual, what you have to do, and you realise it is not for you. I would say in the last 10 years we have had half a dozen councillors who have made that decision, and all respect to them, because some people might say, Well, I will hang on. I think that is the only real reason that I can think of, apart from, obviously, the electorate. Geoff Pryke: We are rarely in that position, but we have had people drop out because of, mainly, work commitments. Q172 Bob Blackman: Thinking of the national and regional parties, how much are they a help or a hindrance in your process of selection and encouraging people to stand? Alan, do you want to start? Alan Wright: I can do. Personally, I think they have been a help of late. We had a system of selecting councillors that I thought was slightly flawed, in that we had a list of approved candidates and the local wards picked and chose which ones and how many they wanted to interview. That was open to manipulation, in my view, and, eventually, the party nationally recognised that. I think they were forced into it from some case on the south coast. Anyway, working with the regional parties and regional chairmen, the national party drew up a set of mandatory rules, which I outlined earlier, where you go through the process of drawing up an approved list, but then you must advertise vacancies to all the people on that list and they can apply. This gives everybody the opportunity to be at least interviewed for a seat in a ward that they really want to stand in. Beyond that, of course, it has to be up to the ward committee or the sector to choose the candidate that they want to go with, but it is transparent now and I think that is important. Q173 Bob Blackman: That is obviously the process. What about encouraging people to stand for election and coming forward? Alan Wright: In my short time as chairman, I cannot see any real change in anything they have done to encourage people. I think it is very much left up to local recruitment. We are encouraged, from time to time, to go on membership recruitment drives, one of which we are now starting the process of. That is a national initiative. One of the discussions at the meeting where we talked about this was on not only bringing in members but bringing in potential candidates to stand in local elections and look out for the people you think will fit that bill. As you will appreciate, that is very difficult to do ahead of the selection process proper. That is about it. I think there is active encouragement now to go out and find people who will become active members and then go on from there and become potential candidates, but beyond that, not a great deal. Tom Wright: The regional party is either very good or very bad, depending on if they agreed with the last thing I said to them. It is very hard in the parties. As CLP secretary, when you go to a meeting on Friday night there will be 90 barrack-room lawyers waiting to highlight every mistake I have made in the last month, and not one of them is going to sing praises for the things I have done. Politics brings out strange quirks and things. The regional party does offer some good training and support, especially for new councillors or potential councillors, but one quirk I have with the Labour Party is, when you join the Labour Party, you join the rule book. Do the Conservatives say that? It is true. If you join any organisation, if you join a working men s club or a sports club, you have signed up to it. I agree with that, but a personal dislike with me is, when we have a mail shot, I have come across the odd person who has joined the Labour Party just so they can be a councillor. I like them to have been in the party a couple of years. I like them to have at least campaigned and delivered leaflets at one election. This is a personal thing of mine; it is not a Labour Party policy. I have chaired shortlisting and selection meetings where the person who has won as the candidate has not been in the Labour Party long

116 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Ev 46 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke enough to vote, because you have to be in the party six months to vote at a shortlisting and they have been in two or three months, although they would not have let them vote anyway. Some of them have turned out to be good, but some of them have turned out, I personally believe, to be disasters. All I am saying is, if they are in the party a couple of years, at least you can observe them and get to know them, because I could get my son to join the Tory Party so I could get copies of all of Alan s minutes. There are 1,000 reasons to join a political party, but a big safety valve for me is the fact that, whether you have been in the party two minutes or 20 years, when you are on the panel, it is the wards that select. They know more about what is going on with the person, and Mrs Smith in the front row will stand up and say, Where have you been? Why didn t you help us at the last election? and things like that. These things do come out. You do get some people who come forward, and we want to encourage people; I am not saying you should not. My personal view is, let us see what you do at next year s election and the year after, and maybe one day you will be leader of the council, maybe one day you will be an MP. It is just a big quirk of mine. I like to know what they have done in the community, not politics, not the council. I like to say, Have you done something in your community and have you done something for my party? because those are the things you are joining up to. Geoff Pryke: We get a lot of help for national and regional party general elections and European elections, but not very much for local council elections. I think if we asked for it, the help would be there, but we tend not to ask for it. We do not get any financial help. Q174 Bob Blackman: That is the next thing I am coming on to. One of the barriers that has been identified is that we are asking councillors to serve part of the time and some have to virtually work full time. Do you think an increase in remuneration would attract more people, better people, in terms of allowances for councillors, or would it be attracting the wrong sort of people, because they might want to do it for the money instead of the good of serving their community? Alan Wright: I think there is probably a danger that you would attract the wrong person if you did boost the allowances up to some significant level. As I said earlier, if you are a committed councillor, it is a full-time job and you do need an allowance. I am from the school that thinks we should not be looking at allowances at this particular time. It is the wrong time to be looking at adjusting allowances. Potentially you would not attract a better candidate because of the allowances. I know when I first stood I did not know allowances were paid as a flat allowance, to be honest. I certainly did not know what it was and so that was not the attraction. I just wanted to put something back. Q175 Bob Blackman: Elections cost money they are a big cost. Do you ask candidates to contribute towards the cost of those elections or is it funded by the central party? Are sitting councillors asked to provide money for their own re-election campaigns? How does that work? Alan Wright: With the Conservatives in Sunderland, we fund the campaigns from the local association. We have income that we use to do that, which gives all the candidates a healthy budget to work with, one that over the years people have found they can work with at that level. We do allow the candidate, if he wants to top up his annual budget not the election expenses, but his annual budget to put in extra and fund it himself, fair enough. We have no problem with that, but generally we can fund it within the local association. Q176 Bob Blackman: There is no expectation on candidates to provide funding? Alan Wright: No. Q177 Bob Blackman: Right, okay. Tom? Tom Wright: Not for candidates and certainly not with new candidates, but for most elections the Labour councillors will give 100 each towards the election. We do get some money. Technically, the CLPs run the elections, but the Labour Group will fund some money. We will look for donations. Some wards have money. Some wards do fundraising events all year round and have that money, but we would expect each ward to put forward 300, and I think for the last 10 years we have said 100 per Labour councillor for those wards with only one or two Labour councillors. Q178 Bob Blackman: Just to be clear, a candidate coming in fresh would not be expected to contribute anything at all apart from, presumably, attending fundraising events and helping to raise money? Tom Wright: Yes. Q179 Bob Blackman: But a sitting councillor would be expected to contribute something towards their re-election campaign. Tom Wright: Yes. Q180 Bob Blackman: Has that been an issue or concern for people? Tom Wright: No. Like a lot of things, it is amazing how it just becomes the culture and people have accepted it. When new ones have come in, they have said, So, basically, when you are up, instead of worrying about paying for your re-election, you know your two ward colleagues have given 100 as well, so really you are paying 300 over the four years for your election. Q181 Bob Blackman: Geoff? Geoff Pryke: Yes, it is our local party that does it. We have a fundraising system and we use those funds for printing leaflets and we do not do much of that. Q182 Bob Blackman: So candidates are not required to provide any funding? Geoff Pryke: They are not required. They will pay their own expenses and things like that.

117 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :56] Job: Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_ Corrected Transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 47 9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke Q183 Bob Blackman: Their own expenses, but what about, say, production of leaflets and so on? You do not expect them to contribute towards that? Geoff Pryke: No. Leaflets we will pay for out of our party funds. Q184 Bob Blackman: On the other issue of remuneration of councillors from their allowances, do you think there is an issue about the amount that is paid? Geoff Pryke: No, I agree with the other two; if you put it up too much, you will attract the wrong sort of person. Chair: Thank you, all three of you, for coming to give evidence at our final session today. Thank you very much indeed for that. We appreciate it. Thanks once again to Sunderland City Council for their organisation of this morning s activities and also for the plans they have for us this afternoon as well. This is a chance to put that officially on the record. Tom Wright: Thank you for coming to Sunderland. We look forward to seeing you and your colleagues again.

118 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Ev 48 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Wednesday 17 October 2012 Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair) Bob Blackman Simon Danczuk Bill Esterson David Heyes James Morris Mark Pawsey Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Leader, Hertfordshire County Council, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Leader of the Opposition, Hertfordshire County Council, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon, Executive Member for Adult Social Care, Leeds City Council, and Councillor Stewart Golton, Leader of the Liberal Democrat Group, Leeds City Council, gave evidence. Q185 Chair: Welcome to all this afternoon to this evidence session on councillors and the community. It is our third evidence session. You are all welcome. Can I begin by apologising for the delay in starting? Occasionally, inconvenient things like votes do get in the way of other business, but that is the reason this afternoon. I cannot promise you we will not have another vote during the proceedings. I hope we will not, but I cannot promise that we will not. If we do and the bell goes, we will just have to disappear and come back and rejoin you. For the sake of our records, could you introduce yourselves? Just say who you are and the organisation you are representing. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I am Councillor Stephen Giles- Medhurst. I am leader of the opposition for the Liberal Democratic Group on Hertfordshire County Council. Cllr Gordon: Robert Gordon, Leader of Hertfordshire County Council. Cllr Golton: Stewart Golton; I lead the Liberal Democrat Group on Leeds City Council. Cllr Yeadon: I am Councillor Lucinda Yeadon. I am the executive board member for adult social care in Leeds City Council. Q186 Chair: You are all very welcome. You have both put submissions in as councils interesting submissions and you were talking particularly about the changing way in which local government operates and the work of councillors within local government. Why do you think the change is necessary in terms of how councils operate? Do you think that the councillors that you have many of whom probably came on in past times, when things were slightly different are now really up to doing the job that is required of them? Who would like to start? Cllr Gordon: The way you posed that question, Chairman, in terms of why change is necessary, I perhaps would not address it that way. To my mind, if we are talking about the role of individual members in their communities rather than the council corporately, it is about re-establishing the relationship with their communities; recognising that people are more informed these days and wish to participate more and to take greater control over their own lives and their communities; and creating a means by which that element of power could be returned to people. In doing so, the role of the councillor changes maybe it returns to what it once was, I do not know. It changes from a delegate that goes off to the town hall to vote things through remotely and then to explain, to someone who should be an activist within the community, a facility to the community, someone who has access to some of the levers of power in Hertfordshire terms, a chunk of money and can help communities to respond to their problems as they perceive them to be. This is why, personally, I do not like the term community leadership and things like this; it is far more a brokerage and activist role. That is the role that I think all elected representatives, if I dare say so, but certainly councillors ought to be fulfilling in their communities and we are looking to develop that. We can go into the detail of that if you wish. In terms of the readiness and the skills of current members to do it, some of them are very much up for it, but some of them it passes by entirely. Q187 Chair: You are not going to name names on this occasion? Cllr Gordon: Not with my opposition leader sitting next to me. That will inevitably be the case, but there are some who have been members for a long time who find this. We are only partway down this route. You cannot turn on a light switch and change all those behaviours and expectations overnight, so this is very much a work in progress. Some find this a much more fulfilling and interesting front-line role, particularly for those who cannot hold major office within the cabinet system. Cllr Golton: I will speak as an opposition member. I think there is a general understanding that there is a need to change because councils need to change, so of course the councillors within them need to respond differently. We know that there is not going to be the same level of funding as there always has been in local authorities, and also that the way that we are able to deliver services to our communities will be less about being responsible for services we directly deliver and more about being able to facilitate partnerships to create solutions that, in many cases, will be bespoke to individual communities. I would suggest it is a far more finessed role, but it is one where it is not just the individual councillors that will have to adapt to that; it is also incumbent upon those in Westminster to change the way they view local government to enable that innovation to occur and be a little bit less restrictive in terms of their perspective on what should be happening.

119 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton Q188 Chair: I look to Councillor Yeadon, following on from your perspective of Leeds, to explain to us what the term civic enterprise means, taken from the Commission on the Future of Local Government, which was very much a Leeds initiative. Cllr Yeadon: Yes, it was very much led by Leeds. I think the Commission certainly wanted to look at the role of local government for the future. Local government has always been changing. This is not new. The environment that we are in now is so different from the previous years, particularly because of the cuts that have impacted on local government and local councils. The change is merely quicker than it has been in the past and more dramatic. Civic enterprise is about looking at re-establishing the relationship between the public sector, the private sector and the third sector and trying to re-establish what our role in the future will be. As Stewart says, the way that local councils are funded and our role will probably no longer be as a major deliverer of services because we are not able to do that, but I still think we have a very important role in shaping what those services are and being a catalyst to help ensure that the services we need are reaching the people who need them most. We cannot do that on our own, so civic enterprise is about how local authorities can become more enterprising, how business and private organisations can become more civic minded, and how communities can become more engaged. I see the role of local government as being just as important or probably more important in the future, but very different. We need to be able to have locally elected members who can adapt and be able to adapt to that change. I think very much we have members who have been on the council for, in some cases, 50 years who are able to do that, but we also need to have local members who are representative of the people that they represent. As you probably know, the average age of a local councillor is 60 I have about 30 years to go before I meet that average and 31% of local councillors are women, so we still have a long way to go before we are representative of the people we represent. We just need to ensure that we encourage new, well placed people to come forward into those roles. Q189 Chair: Councillor Giles-Medhurst, is Hertfordshire County Council s vision of localism subscribed to by opposition members as well? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is to some extent, in terms of some of the routes that have been adapted in the locality budget and more recently the highways locality budget; but on some other aspects, Robert and I disagree, and indeed all opposition members disagree. There has been recently an abolition of what have been effectively local area committees on highways issues. That is an area we have disagreed on. The administration has a different view and a different fundamental view of how localism moves forward. Turning to your earlier question, having been a councillor for 32 years I was elected at 21 so I came in very young, and I have aged with the rest of the population in that sense. I believe councillors have been and should be the advocates of the community they represent. What has clearly changed in that time and Bob Blackman is indicating this in respect of Brent; I used to be on Harrow Council while he was on Brent Council is the councils themselves. Local government has changed and councils have to adapt to those changes. There has been outsourcing. There has been the sale of council houses, so it is no longer dealing with the Housing Department but dealing with the community housing trust. That has become more difficult for some members. Now, in terms of the localism we have in Hertfordshire, it is clearly different to what you have elsewhere. I think localism for each community will vary and that is where I may agree with Robert. We need to vary that element of community localism. I even think in an area like Hertfordshire, with a population of 1 million, that you necessarily cannot have one fit for the whole of the area. We have urban areas and we have rural areas. You have localism with just one member involved in an urban area, but their decisions in one urban area will affect their neighbouring members. I represent Central Watford, for instance: when I make a decision in my division, it will affect other parts of Watford, and vice versa. I think you have to have cohesive units where localism works, not just say it is all delegated to one individual member to make that decision. Q190 Bill Esterson: Stephen, you have just used the word advocates. To what extent is your role as a community leader? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is very much about involving oneself with the community residents associations, community groups. In smaller numbers, I go to an elderly residents home on a quarterly basis: they would not come to surgeries even if I held surgeries I no longer believe surgeries are of value. I go to them and seek their views, talk about what is going on within the town and within Hertfordshire, and take their issues back. Whether it be issues in terms of policing I have a quarterly meeting with the local police along with my borough council colleagues or something else, it is about advocating what needs to be done, and this is where things have moved on. It is getting those leg-ins, so to speak, with the various groups that exist. No longer is it that the councils make a decision on everything and the councillor is your representative. Yes, the councillor is your representative but no longer do we have the control over the housing association it has been delegated. There has been outsourcing. The same will occur with the police and the police authority elections. We will have a police commissioner in Hertfordshire by the middle of November, so it will be engaging direct, whereas before there were appointed representatives from the county council on the police commission that we could question at county hall meetings. That will no longer be the case; there will be a new mechanism, so we will have to move with those times. That to some extent makes it more difficult and can potentially make it far more time consuming.

120 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Ev 50 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton Q191 Bill Esterson: Robert, do you have a different view of community leadership? Cllr Gordon: I must say I do not like the term community leadership in the front-line role of councillors, because I think the role there is far greater Stephen described it well. I do not know even whether you would use the term leadership. It is brokerage; it is engagement; it is facilitation; it is entrepreneurial it is all that sort of stuff. I think there are at least two different sets of decisions that we are involved in. There is a stack of stuff that has to be dealt with through normal representative democratic processes major budget decisions, children s safeguarding, the fire service. All sorts of things need to be taken at a fairly high level and need to be taken by us in our representative roles. What interests me more is far more the relationship of front-line councillors with their communities. As I say, I certainly do not see that as a leadership role. Q192 Bill Esterson: What is the difference between that and what you describe in your written submission as a role of facilitating, mediating and advocacy? Cllr Gordon: Yes, all of that. We are doing two things. Where the decision is local enough and specific enough that it can be substantially taken by and influenced by people in their communities, we operate in that brokerage sense. Where it has to be taken at a higher level because of its scale and significance, then yes, you are the eyes and ears and voice of the communities. There you are advocating for your community in the councils beyond the community itself. As I say, my interest obviously when you call for evidence you can only touch on some of it within the 4,000 words is in that non-institutional role. I am not arguing with colleagues here, but certainly what we heard from Leeds is very much institutional relationships. I am interested in the power shift back to people from whom that power comes. We have done it through social care with personalisation; through localism we can do the same thing for community-based things. Q193 Bill Esterson: I am sure we will come back to that. Lucinda, as democratically elected representatives, how is that different from the role of other community activists? Cllr Yeadon: First of all, it depends what your definition of leadership is. I think there are very different ways you can lead people or be part of a community. If you are talking about community leadership, there will be some times that elected members will be in a position that is very different from local activists. For example, if you look at the riots last year, in Leeds we did not have any riots but we did have local elected members going out on the streets with the police and with community leaders, i.e. representatives from the mosque and other well known community groups, talking to people to defuse tension on the streets. I think that their taking that role played a huge part in the fact that we did not have any riots in Leeds. Now, I would say that was community leadership and it was a very certain type of leadership. But you also have to be able to have the skills to facilitate discussion and to support local people to find solutions to some of the issues in their areas. Gone are the days when local elected members are the pillars of society, that you come to a meeting and your word is it. We have very different hats that we need to be wearing and lots of different roles to fill. It would be short-sighted of us just to say we only have one role within the communities that we represent. We have various different roles and they have changed a lot from the traditional local authority community relationship. I am not sure if I answered your question, though. Q194 Bill Esterson: That is fine. Do you think that GPs, schools, businesses and other organisations welcome the involvement of councillors? Cllr Yeadon: I would hope so, because if they do not welcome our input, then we have a bit of trouble ahead. I am a local governor, Stewart and I sit on the health and wellbeing board with local GPs. We have to work with those organisations and it is right: we have a mandate and we are there to represent the people who elected us and to work to support those other organisations in our city and in our wards and our communities. The local primary school, where I am a governor, absolutely welcomes my relationship with them, as does the local GP, particularly when we are trying to find solutions to some of the major ingrained problems that we have in our local communities that we cannot solve on our own. If we are not working with them, how are we going to solve those problems? Q195 Bill Esterson: Stewart, you are nodding a lot. Cllr Golton: Yes. Whether you are in administration or whether you are in opposition, I think the main role of your role as a leader as a local council is in challenging. Whether that be challenges in relation to decisions that are taken by the ruling administration that affect your community, or challenge in terms of the responses you are getting from officers that you do not feel are appropriate to enable your community to achieve its potential that is where you come in. Between us, we have had an example of that and because of the budgetary issues we recently closed a whole lot of residential homes in the city [Interruption.] Cllr Yeadon: Saved by the bell. Chair: We are going to have to suspend, I am afraid, for the vote. Committee suspended for a Division in the House. Q196 James Morris: Talking about the role of local councillors, I think one of the issues is that a lot of local councillors who are not in cabinet positions often feel quite disempowered. We can talk about community leadership as much as we want, but when it comes to effectively being able to determine what happens in their wards in terms of money or engagement, there is little scope. I know that each of you have taken initiatives to try to devolve power to individual councillors. I am quite interested to hear more about the area committees that you set up,

121 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton Councillor Yeadon. How effective have they been in terms of devolving responsibilities to councillors? Cllr Yeadon: I think they have been effective. It is a work in progress still. We have come a long way; there is further we can go. I think you are right; backbench councillors probably do feel disenfranchised if you compare their role now to what it was under a committee system. Q197 James Morris: Do you get a lot of people participating in the area committees? Cllr Yeadon: Absolutely. Q198 James Morris: Residents? Cllr Yeadon: I think it depends. We have 10 area committees in the city. They are all very different in how they engage. Q199 James Morris: Are they based on configurations of particular wards? Cllr Yeadon: Yes. We have some area committees that are larger than others. It depends on how the ward boundaries fall. The area committee that I sit on, which is the Inner North West, has quite a significant public attendance. We have an open forum at the beginning: the public come; they bring us deputations, as they would to full council, and they are very engaged with it. Q200 James Morris: Does it tend to be groups of residents who have particular issues that they want to be vocal about, whether it is a school closure or an issue in the community? Cllr Yeadon: We have people who regularly attend them. Then, you will have people who are motivated by a particular issue to come for a particular reason. The problem we are always going to have is that it is always going to be those people who know how the system works and will come to the meetings and represent their views, which is fine, but I think we also need to remember there is a group of people in society who do not know how the council works and who actually are trying to work three jobs to keep food on the table and are going to struggle to attend area committees to make their views known. Q201 James Morris: Do you feel that sometimes creates an issue? In terms of public perception of area committees, one of the things that I have noticed in my patch with area committees is that there is a bit of a gap between what residents are expecting is going to happen at an area committee meeting and what actually does happen. Is that part of your experience? Because it is kind of the council doing its business in public and the public actually feel as though it is a slightly different forum. Is that a mismatch that you Cllr Yeadon: I think the difference with the area committee that I sit on I cannot speak for all the area committees of Leeds is that the public do contribute to the discussion, which I think is quite unusual. We do have powers as an area committee and we have budgets and, therefore, there are real decisions rather than just tokenistic having a meeting in the local community. While that is very important, we must recognise that there are people who live in deprived areas who probably do not know how to access some of this. We cannot forget that. Just because their issues are not being vocalised at a particular public meeting does not mean that their issues are not important, and sometimes they may be even more crucial. Q202 James Morris: Councillor Golton, what is your experience of the area committees? You were shaking your head and nodding. Cllr Golton: I am lucky because originally I was a councillor in the area of Leeds Inner North West, which is a very articulate area. It is the place where all the college lecturers live and it is an area of high studentification, which meant that there were a lot of people getting agitated about people urinating in their garden and the rubbish that happened in the area. It was a very effective local body but it was also in a very tight urban area, so you could actually get to meetings whether they were in one ward or another. The wards in Leeds are very large and area committees necessarily have to join some wards together. The area committee that I now cover is a very large swathe of the southern edge of the city, which takes in independent towns and villages that have all been lumped together into an area committee. At the last area committee there was not one member of the public there. The only audience were council officers. The majority of the agenda is dominated by council business, whereby the executive wishes to have its business rubberstamped by local representatives to say it has gone through the area committee system. It becomes, at its worst, a glorified grants-making body for the area budget that you have. There has been some very progressive employment of individuals to help a particular issue come along. In areas like Leeds North West, in my own area, it is primarily about making sure that each area gets its bit of the capital pot for certain community groups to use. Q203 James Morris: Is there a limited time for the public to speak in this meeting? Cllr Golton: There is no formal time for the public in this meeting. Q204 James Morris: There is no time; right. Is that a deliberate decision? Cllr Golton: If I remember rightly the original discussion was to do with what was allowed within the constitution. If it is a formal council meeting because councillors say, Up with this we will not put you have a specific section before the formal start of the meeting for community concerns, where the public can get involved, or you just basically ignore the rule book and let them come on board. That is where you show discretion as a local representative. Unfortunately, I have not had the luxury of having members of the public wanting to speak at my local area committee, which makes it quite a sad place to go to, I have to say, as a local politician. In circumstances like that you wish to make sure that in your own ward those people who need supporting are aware of how an area committee works. It would help, of course, if they did meet at a time when the public

122 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Ev 52 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton can get to them. The Inner North West meets at 7.00 in the evening, which is not convenient for council officers but they have to put up with it, whereas my own meets at 4.00 in the afternoon. Q205 James Morris: Councillors Gordon and Giles- Medhurst, you have made play of your devolved budgets. Tell me a little bit more about how successful they have been and some of the constraints. Cllr Gordon: Gladly. Can I just pick up on what we have just heard, because Stephen and I take a different view, as he has already alluded to, about local committees or a particular type of local committee? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Depends on type, yes. Cllr Gordon: Yes, that is right. My view is quite clear that I do not want to devolve to intermediate tiers of the same self-important people sitting around the table. We know that very few people turn up to them. We know it is difficult to engage for all the reasons that we have just heard. I do not know what your population base is for those committees in Leeds, but it must be quite large. Our view my view and my administration s view has been far more that the individual councillors are already there representing manageable sizes of groups of communities, about 12,000 electors on average. They should be, and must be, encouraged to engage with residents associations, with community and voluntary groups, to walk the streets with their residents, and that is how that engagement takes place. We do not want residents to feel that they have to go to a committee to be a supplicant saying, We have a problem. Will you sort this out for us? We want them to say, We have a problem. What can we do about it? Hey, you are the local councillor. You are part of this mix; you have some contacts. Q206 James Morris: Don t area committees have a role in shaping a local community identity? Isn t that one of the functions? Cllr Gordon: I think not. Stephen is agitating to get in. I think partly it is also to do with the two-tier arrangements that we have in Hertfordshire, where there is everywhere a more local district council, but more particularly in half of the area there is also a first-tier council and a town or parish council. If I can come back to answer the question that you asked me rather than the one that I gave Q207 James Morris: I apologise; I gave a supplementary to a question that I have not asked. Cllr Gordon: No, my apology; I was answering the question you did not ask me. Now let me move on to the question you did ask. Having made that point about the significance of the local front-line councillor in his brokerage facilitating sense, the fact that he has access to money helps. It helps in terms of visibility and it certainly helps in being able to deliver. Of the 100,000 each of my front-line councillors has, 10,000 is for anything subject to the law and 90,000 is for local highways issues. When there is a local issue and the community in touch with the councillor is saying, This is something that is getting up our nose. This is the solution we would like to have. If we had 500 or 2,000, or whatever it is, it could be dealt with, now the local member is able to say, Yes, I am persuaded by that. I can deliver on that. Let s go ahead and do it. It does not have to come back to me. As chairman of cabinet and leader of the council with 7.7 million, I have said, I do not care how that is spent now. Someone else can spend that. That I think is a very marked difference. We tried to change the mindset from people saying, What are they going to do about it? when there was a problem to them saying instead, What are we going to do about it? and What role can my councillor play in helping deliver that? Q208 James Morris: In terms of determining how this money is going to be spent, do you have an established process by which the individual councillor needs to consult within the ward? Cllr Gordon: No. Q209 James Morris: Or can the councillor just say, I am going to repair this pothole in my road that has most of my voters on it.? Cllr Gordon: We are developing the processes around it. The expectation is that colleagues will consult. Certainly, so far as highway stuff is concerned, the protocol expects them to consult with councillors and other tiers, with residents associations and other groups, but essentially to take the pulse. Ultimately, as for all of us who stand and fall by the ballot box, the decision is made and if we make the wrong one if it potentially is an unlawful decision we have mechanisms that would prevent that, so we do not have councillors who are gold-plating the pavement outside their house and ignoring everybody else. Because at law the decision is actually taken by an officer, not by the member, but thus far a member s recommendation has never been overturned. It is very much for their local judgment, providing it is lawful. So far as the highway stuff is concerned, there are limits. It has to be rational within our asset management system and things of that nature, but there is never enough money. If it is local work and I could afford to do that or that but I cannot do both, to be guided by the community seems to be the way forward. I do not think the committee-based system is the way to do it, Stephen and I disagree about this, certainly as part of what we are trying to do at the moment, which is to change fundamentally that relationship between people and their local councillor. They have an intermediate committee and we have all seen them where you say very few people turn up, they find it difficult to access them, difficult to influence them, and they are forced to become a supplicant. Q210 James Morris: I am interested to hear about this fundamental disagreement. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I think Robert has perhaps misrepresented me in terms of having a disagreement here. In terms of having a delegated committee of all the council decisions to an area committee, I have to say I would agree with Robert. I do not think that is workable or practical. In terms of having real

123 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton delegation in terms of where residents come along, present petitions on highways issues, have them discussed by the local members both at the borough level or district level and the county councillors, that is what has been abolished and that is where I disagree with Robert. Having a sub-committee of the county council with all the decisions that would go to county council or the cabinet discussed in front of maybe one resident is pointless. I would agree with Robert on that one. Cllr Gordon: They now submit to their elected representative, not a panel of elected representatives, sometimes not involving their local one at all, and where potentially the local view can be overruled by people from outside the area. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: You sat on one of the panels with me that I chaired and that was never the case, as you know, Robert. In terms of neighbourhood engagement, which is what you were talking about, James, perhaps oddly I am also a parish councillor and a district councillor and I chair an area forum in the district area that I do not represent on the county council. I represent a completely different area. We also have within the area county council neighbourhood forums, which are organised by the borough council and the borough councillors who I have a relationship with. There are six in my division, so we have regular neighbourhood forums. These are issues that the residents themselves raise. For instance, we have a contentious issue, not necessarily politically but an issue for residents, about a proxy rail link in the area. We had a neighbourhood forum to discuss that and how residents may wish to put their point of view to an inquiry. Coming back to the questions you were asking, that I see as very much helping the residents to put their case and lead them in terms of advocacy: These are the sort of things you perhaps should be saying to the inspector if you are going to present this sort of evidence. That, I think, is a role for councillors and that is the way you engage with those residents. I think that mechanism works where we have it. Ironically, these are not organised by the county council; they are organised by the district councils. It is very important that the county member, or whatever level tier of government you are, is engaged with the other representatives along the line to see what mechanisms exist there. The neighbourhood forum at Watford does have a small budget. Again, local councils can give out little stipends to community groups. The area forum I chair encompasses a whole parish area, and although items are regularly on there like the police report where police come along and give a report about local crime issues, they are set on the agenda. The residents welcome that. You talk about attendance at these meetings. At the meetings that I have gone to, and the meetings that I represent on the county council or for that particular district, the attendance has varied between 20 and 200 depending upon the issue. To make these things relevant to people to come along, you have to have things that they themselves want to discuss. It is no good putting on the county council s library service change of opening hours if there is no library in that area that residents are going to be interested in. Now, if there were, I think clearly you would have residents come up and turn up about those particular potential changes. Q211 Bob Blackman: You have all described the fact that councils and councillors are changing and that you have very different levels of experience and expertise. If new people are coming forward, what are the ideal characteristics that they will have in order to become a councillor? Who wants to go first? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Being able to manage their s and the expectation of residents. As soon as they have sent you an , they expect a reply back with an answer and the date that X pothole will be fixed because you have the money to fix it. It does not happen like that. It is actually managing expectations. When I first became a councillor, you would maybe get one or two letters a week, if that maybe one or two letters a month. Now you get 10 or 20 s a day if you are publishing your address, and most councillors should be because they should be accessible. There is huge expectation from members of the public that you know how to solve things. Now, some of that may well be going back to residents and saying, Well, actually, you need to use the highways fault reporting system, which we have in Hertfordshire electronically pointing out that there are mechanisms to do this yourself and you do not have to come to the elected member. Q212 Bob Blackman: Okay, so ability to manage s, that is the most important thing as far as you are concerned? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is ability to manage and also the ability to manage time and, depending on what type of authority you are on, it is also managing expectation. The county council meets during the day. I was lucky enough to have a particular career path and job that allowed me to go to daytime meetings. I have since taken early retirement freeing me up effectively full-time, but actually 61% of Hertfordshire county councillors are over 60. That replicates itself elsewhere. Evening meetings obviously allow members to have full-time jobs, or at least part-time jobs. It does vary with the type of authority. You have to be able to manage your time and expectations. Q213 Bob Blackman: Robert, do you have a view on that? Cllr Gordon: Time certainly is the case, and I think some papers we saw suggested that someone thought that the average councillor did 35 hours a week. It seems a bit over the top to me, but it is still a full couple of days in bits all round the place; so, a significant amount of time, inconsistent with normal full-time employment unless you are in one of those protected jobs that gives you all of that time off. Time is important. Really being anchored in the community is essential, because it is a community role first and foremost. We all have leadership positions of various types, but we are all first and foremost a front-line councillor, and

124 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Ev 54 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton at the whim of the electorate we could end up back there, so being anchored in the community is hugely important; also, the ability to deal with modern technology, absolutely. I come back to my hobbyhorse, which is about those softer skills: the brokerage skills, the facilitation, and the ability to talk to people and bring people together. Even though sometimes in percentage terms our mandate might be a little bit ropey, we have the mandate through the ballot box. We have a particular status to go to a whole range of public and private and voluntary agencies and say, My community is fussed about this. If you could come and help with this, you can come and help with that, and you can bring this and I can put a few bob in out of my locality budget, and collectively we can deliver what the community wants. That is very different from the old-style, I will go to the town hall, the county hall, every now and then and put my hand up when the whip tells me to. Q214 Bob Blackman: Stewart? Cllr Golton: Once you have bottomed all those qualities, one of the things you should have is an enquiring mind. The Liberal Democrats used to say that a councillor should be a cabinet member for their ward, but I think more importantly a councillor should be a scrutineer for their ward. They need to be questioning why things are delivered in the way that they are delivered. They need to enquire why this thing has not happened in their community. They need to be able to ask questions of their own constituents to say, Why do you think this is an important issue? Q215 Bob Blackman: So, an enquiring mind? Cllr Golton: Information-gathering is key because if you do not, then you cannot change anything, can you? As we have said, communities are feeling under increasing pressure in terms of the budgets being cut centrally and, therefore, having a run-on effect in your own area. That is why we need to find out why things cost the way they do so that you can then say, Well, actually, we are proposing a different alternative locally. Q216 Bob Blackman: Okay. Lucinda? Cllr Yeadon: There is not much left after all of that, is there? I think communication skills are really important, particularly with the way that communication is changing and being able to access as I think was already mentioned modern technology to reach some of the harder-to-reach groups. You need to be somebody who is able to try to find solutions to problems and someone who is willing to co-operate, whether that is with differing parties or different organisations, and to be approachable. Gone are the days where we are sitting in ivory towers and not able to meet people that we represent. We have to be approachable. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is also being able to think outside the box sometimes and to challenge what you are being told. Some councillors have moved with the times, but certain council officers have not. They will send out an answer, No, this cannot be done. Some councillors would historically accept that. I am not one of those, as Robert well knows, and I will keep challenging those decisions if I think they are wrong. You do not want someone who is going to get elected and accept everything that is going to be told to them by officers or, for that matter, other parties in terms of the wider thing. They have to challenge. Q217 Bob Blackman: We will come back to that in a minute, I suspect. The average councillor is white, 60 and male. Is that a problem, Lucinda? Does it matter if people who are from the black or minority ethnic community or women are not represented on councils? Cllr Yeadon: I think it does matter. We have to question, first of all, why people from those groups are not represented, and that throws up further questions about whether it is the political system and how parties operate or whether it is because the world that we operate in is not accessible to those people. I was elected when I was 27. I was the youngest woman on the council. I have just been re-elected, so I have been there four years. I am still the youngest woman on the council, although there are young men on the council. I am also disabled, so, other than the fact that I am white, I do not tick any of the stereotypes. I go to meetings and people assume that I am the secretary or that I am my own PA. I regularly have people say to me, You are too young to be a councillor. Now, whether they would say that to a man who was the same age as me I am not actually sure. If we do not represent the communities that we serve, how do we ensure that we are making decisions that are right for those people in those communities? I do think it is important. We want to get to a stage where we have 50% women in the Labour group in Leeds. I do not think that is a negative aspiration. That is something positive that we should reach for, but we also need to make sure that other groups are represented also. It does not mean that if you are a man you cannot represent women s issues, but we need to be able to say that we are a diverse group because we represent diverse people, and that is positive. Q218 Bob Blackman: Do not feel obliged to say anything, but anything to add? Cllr Gordon: I would not dissent from that, but I think we have to acknowledge the practicalities of it. First of all, we as councillors do not select our candidates; it is the party machine. I do not know whether you will be speaking to them. No one is able to take that overview prior to election. Individual candidates are selected and elected. It is only once they have been elected that you can gather them together and say, Oh dear, that does not look very good, does it? At best, in Hertfordshire, we have 11 constituencies, so some of those might be able to look at half-a-dozen candidates, but no one can look at the whole. Certainly, having been elected, we, as you, are single elected representatives in a patch, so be we male, female, black, white, whatever, we still have to do our damnedest to represent everybody that is in that patch. It does not alter the fact that I would prefer if people came and looked at our chamber and thought, Yes, that looks a bit more like Hertfordshire than it

125 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton currently does, but it is more someone else s business. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I think the difficulty and all the parties face this is trying to persuade people to stand for office now. Q219 Bob Blackman: That is exactly what I am coming to next. What is being done by the council not necessarily the political group to encourage people from different communities to come forward? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I will leave Rob to answer what the council is doing, because I do not think council is doing much. It is difficult, I think it would be fair to say, for the council to do much because it is for the political parties to encourage people to stand. This is where you do have the difficulties because if someone who has perhaps just started their career has council commitments, their employer may think rather dimly of that. That certainly has been said to me and it has undoubtedly been said to my colleagues here as well. I have to say some of the political backbiting that goes on between the parties in robust election campaigns actually puts people off standing because they think, I don t really like to do all that. I don t really want to get into all those things. I only really want to serve the community and sort out having this play area refurbished. I don t really care about what is going on nationally. Therefore, they will not stand for election. Part of the problem the parties themselves have is that they do put people off as a part of that. Now, those of us who are a bit longer in the tooth put up with that and we take it on the shoulder, but encouraging new people to come along where that sort of campaigning goes on makes it much more difficult for all the parties, I would suggest. We should be representative irrespective of who is elected of our whole community. Sometimes that is difficult, but then perhaps you engage with the lower tier of elected representatives who might be slightly more representative. I engage with a mixture of male and female borough councillors of different ages and different experiences. You use their experiences as you would use the experiences of some of the community groups you work with and some of the youth volunteers that work with some of those organisations. Q220 Bob Blackman: Does it matter to you, and does it matter to your group on the council, that you have significantly fewer women and significantly fewer people from black and minority ethnic communities? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It matters to the political parties, yes. The group cannot decide that because it is the electorate who decide who is elected. Yes, we may put up X number of women or X number of people from an ethnic background. In order to avoid the political argument, you need to put them up in seats that they are likely to win. That will vary across the political spectrum, but you cannot force the electorate to vote for those individuals. It is about choosing the best person for the job out of the political parties. Often, nowadays, candidate selection in most places is rarely contested, I would suggest. Cllr Golton: I can give you an example. It depends on which communities you represent. I represent a community that is ex-mining. It is 99% white but it is only 5% gay, but they have a gay councillor. So we have ticked a box anyway. When my party was larger in numbers pre-coalition, we had a wider geographical spread and that meant that within our group we had we had quite a few women, we had a lesbian, we had four gay men, we had two Asian councillors and we had two Jewish members; but as we were not so successful in elections, it meant that a lot of those people fell off because they represented the communities that they served because there were a larger number of them in those particular wards. They tend to sometimes get replaced by people of the same community, but not always. The party can encourage, but it does not necessarily mean that the electorate will embrace. Q221 Bob Blackman: Leeds has multi-member wards? Cllr Golton: Yes, three. Cllr Yeadon: Yes, correct. Q222 Bob Blackman: As opposed to Hertfordshire, which has single member wards? Cllr Gordon: Yes. Q223 Bob Blackman: Which gives you more scope then to actually ensure that the candidates selected are representative of the area? Cllr Yeadon: I just feel that there has been a lot of, It is not really our responsibility. It is our responsibility, because we are the politicians and we are the ones who make the decisions. It is our parties who make rules around selections. It is our parties who nurture and encourage our members to put themselves forward. We cannot blame the political machine because we are the political machine. Perhaps if we are not getting the right people put forward, we need to have a look at the way that we operate within the parties to do that. Women generally do better in elections. When we had the all-outs in Leeds, it was women who were coming the top of the list because people thought, Oh, it is a woman, she is a bit different and perhaps she is not just the same as the rest of them. I think we cannot say it is the political machine because we are the politicians; we are the ones who actually make the decisions about these things. Cllr Gordon: We are here as council leaders in the broadest sense. Selection decisions are matters for our political parties or, indeed, for independents who so wish. I appreciate we wear both hats, but I think we have been summoned here in our council roles. Yes, the council does have a responsibility in terms of promoting democracy, but that is far more about making sure the information is available. If someone says, I am interested in becoming a councillor. How do I go about it? that information is there. Encouraging people to vote, taking part in local democracy week and trying to get councillors in and out of schools, and so on, but actually going out and identifying potential candidates the vast majority of

126 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Ev 56 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton whom will have to stand on a political label if they are likely to get elected is not business for a council, in my view. Cllr Golton: That is one of the areas where the council can encourage, though. You have school councils and, of course, you make sure that every single school runs competitions and that individuals can be encouraged to stand within those. Then, of course, when you have looked-after children, you also ensure that they have their own voice body that encourages that. Cllr Gordon: I think the other issue, though, that may be slightly different from the position that you gentlemen are in is that there is a far greater expectation with a council candidate that they have a strong connection with the patch before they are adopted. I know a number of you have had, but a number of you do not have. Stephen used the point of making sure that the underrepresented groups are offered seats that they are likely to win, but if they come forward and their connection is with a seat that they are not likely to win, it is not easy to pick them up and put them somewhere else where they do not have that legitimacy. I think parliamentary candidates can earn their local credentials; council candidates tend to have to get in very quickly. Q224 Bob Blackman: Can I just come back on one issue because, Robert, you being the leader of the council here, surely you want an appropriate number of compliant individuals who are voted in and who do what you tell them to, rather than having Stephen s multitudinous, independently minded people who are going to go off and do their own thing and maybe they will vote for you collectively or maybe they will not? Cllr Gordon: I will not trespass into the trouble of herding Lib Dem councillors. No, obviously Bob you understand it. Having had a rigorous debate within the group, if that is appropriate, we want people who will then put their hand up at the right time in the right places, as you have all trooped off loyally to do a few moments ago. That does not mean that I want a stack of yes men and women who will just do what I say, although that is occasionally an attractive prospect. Again, that is part of the wider decision-making of the council, corporate decision-making, which is important. I am very happy to talk about that. The emphasis I think we are talking about is the front-line role, and I want people there who are really energetic, really engaged, really thoughtful, will do that brokerage role and, yes, will be an advocate for their patch so if things cannot be decided very locally and that is the vast majority, of course who will then come back to me, to the appropriate cabinet member, and say, This needs sorting out in my patch. It has to be sorted out at that level, so please get on with it. We all say this, but I mean it: rigorous debates privately, grand; obviously, loyalty publically once you get to that point. Q225 Bill Esterson: Two points that just came out of what Lucinda said. You said women tend to do better in elections. Do young councillors or any other of the groups that we have mentioned do better in elections? Cllr Gordon: I think the evidence remains not so much in terms of colour per se but if you have a peculiar name that hits you. Looking at the analysis of multi-member seats Q226 Bill Esterson: What about youth; is that an advantage? Cllr Gordon: Youth is not so well known, but I think if I just make a small point while Stephen catches his breath, as is the advantage I have back home. We had a candidate last time round who was very youthful. I think he was just 18; he did not quite get in. There is a question mark whether in any sense it is a typical 18-year-old who seeks to be elected at that stage of their life. Most are still completing their career, their job, establishing family, all of that sort of thing. Merely to be young: question mark. Yes, it would be nice to see. I only have one in my group only one under 40. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I suppose I can speak from experience on this because I was elected at the age of 21, having been 21 on nomination day, when it was still 21 rather than 18. I was the only one elected from my group in that year; I am afraid I defeated the Conservative chairman of social services. I think it was not necessarily the youth that elected me because, in fact, I did not have any of my photographs on the leaflet because I looked too young, but actually it was the fact that I door-knocked lots of residents prior to the election. It is how you are known in the community and what you do that is normally far more important to individuals getting elected. Q227 Bill Esterson: A very quick final question from me: all-women shortlists, black and minority ethnic shortlists, yes or no? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I think not, because there you are imposing a party will or a party decision. I speak personally on this. Cllr Gordon: There would be a number of seats where there would not be a single candidate. Cllr Golton: No. Cllr Yeadon: I was selected on an all-woman shortlist and so in that case I think they are a necessary evil, if you like. I would like to be able to say that I was the right person for the job and that is why I got selected in that seat. I still think I was the right person for the job, I still got selected in the seat, but I cannot say it was because it was an open shortlist. However, for the past 100 years we have had more or less male-only shortlists and nobody seemed to object to those. Q228 Bill Esterson: What about black and minority ethnic shortlists, any difference there? You have all said no. Cllr Yeadon: I think our representation from black minority ethnic groups relative to numbers of population is more or less actually pretty good. Bill Esterson: Not an issue as such. Q229 David Heyes: Councillor Gordon, I think I just heard you say that councils do have a role in promoting democracy. Does that mean that you

127 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton disagree with the Government s abolition of the legal duty to promote democracy? Cllr Gordon: No, I am very happy not to be under a duty and to exercise our own discretion locally. Clearly, that is something in which we are all interested. There has been no change in what Hertfordshire has done. I am not suggesting necessarily we do as much as we should. There has been no change from that duty having gone away; it is still something that we are concerned to do. Q230 David Heyes: Do any of the other panel members think that was a retrograde step to abolish that duty? Cllr Golton: I think there is less that you should be imposing on councils as a duty and they should be choosing to do what they choose to do. I can remember some of our actual campaigns in the past that were awful in terms of promoting democracy. It was something like, Vote before you croak, with a skeleton on the side of a bus. Sometimes they are not very good examples of a use of public money. There are different ways of doing things and perhaps you can incorporate it within your own council s policy to ensure that people like schools are encouraging it from very early ages, saying, This is why this is important. This is why you personally should get involved. With advertising campaigns, it is often very difficult to understand how effective they are. Therefore, if you have a really good idea then you should put your money behind it and stick by it, as opposed to being told you have to do it. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I have no problems with the abolition issue per se providing councils are still promoting it, but what is more relevant when you have turnouts normally under 40%, with some exceptions, is actually what is relevant. You will get on the doorstep, You are all the same, I am not bothering voting or, Decisions are all made at county hall. What is the point? What can you do? I think it is getting that message across; actually, it is relevant in the community by having someone who is working with the community advocating. The thing that I have a particular bugbear about, which probably you will not be able to control, is we know when the elections are in terms of annual elections for most councils or every four years with the county, but the media, in fact, does very little to publicise the fact that Today is polling day; go and vote. You hear about the results maybe afterwards because X party has been hammered in the local elections, but how much was in the media saying today was polling day, encouraging people to go and vote on that day? I think that begs some of the question. Often politicians will go and knock at the door at 9.00 at night; Oh, I didn t know today was polling day, said a voter because they had not heard anything about it because it has not been in the media. Cllr Gordon: But one of the reasons why I am as fixed on promoting the role of the local council in the patch is I think linked in with this. If the local council is more visible and more accountable, if they are seen as being someone who can help do something in the patch, then it is far more likely it is not going to happen overnight that over time people will say, Well, it matters who our councillor is, and this guy is doing a good job, whereas this woman is sorry, I am getting into dangerous territory This other person is not doing a good job. At the margins, hopefully more and more that will make a difference on the day. If people think it matters they are far more likely to vote than if they think, It doesn t matter who I vote for; you get the same outcome. Q231 David Heyes: Falling short of action using the council to invite people to become councillors and to encourage people to be in council, to do it one step removed, to make the job attractive in other words that is your recipe? Cllr Gordon: That is right, yes. There are two things: to demonstrate to people who might at some stage think about becoming a councillor but have been rather put off that this is a jolly interesting and useful thing to do, but also to demonstrate to the electorate, to residents, that it matters to them who is helping them resolve their problems and advocating for them. If you can manage both of those things, it can only help pull in the right direction. Q232 David Heyes: Perhaps I could ask Councillor Yeadon s views on this. Has the negative image around local government been a disincentive to getting people to come forward? Cllr Yeadon: I think if you spoke to somebody in their community and said, Who would you trust more, a councillor or an MP? I am not sure whether they would necessarily have a negative view of local government. I think if somebody went to the council chamber when there was a debate taking place and whether they would have a negative view of local government, then perhaps. I think the way we conduct ourselves could be better. Whether it is a statutory duty or whether it is a moral duty to encourage people to take part in democracy is one thing or another, but I think local authorities should encourage it. That starts young, like you were saying, at the school councils. We should be encouraging young people through to older people. It goes back to whether we are a diverse representation of the communities. If people come to a room that is full of 60-plus-year-old white men and think, Do they represent me? Do I feel they will listen to me? maybe they would have a negative view of local government. Q233 David Heyes: Just one last quick question for all of you to comment on if you wish. Is the voluntary community sector, voluntary community groups, a good hunting ground for potential candidates? If so, what do you do about it? Cllr Golton: It is a very good hunting ground for potential candidates, but I think it needs encouraging and valuing. We still have a lot to do in terms of investing in our communities, in terms of building social capacity so that a lot more social enterprises get made and grow up. Through that very process of facilitating that understanding, you get far more confident people who will then think, Do you know what, I am going to go that step further because I have

128 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Ev 58 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton got so far and I have this project sorted, but I think I could be of use elsewhere. The voluntary sector tends to be a lot more flexible in its working arrangements, so they have a lot more people who are on shared jobs or they are on part-time working, which makes it far easier to fit in with the council. Because the big thing that puts people off council work is not the bit that they see you doing, which is turning up to community meetings and making things happen; they are aware that behind it there are a whole load of mind-numbing committee meetings that will sap the will out of you. If they are young and they have families, then they do not find that an attractive option. That is one of the reasons again why you will find that councillors tend to be a little bit older, because if they have children, they do not have the time. Q234 David Heyes: Anyone else? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I would agree with you to some extent, but part of that problem sometimes can be people will be very much single interest in terms of that particular voluntary sector. They want to be on the council to influence that single interest. It is encouraging people not just from that sort of group but from community associations to stand. What they have done already in their community association they could apply to their whole ward or, in the case of a county division, the whole county division because they are already an advocate. They know how to get things done. They know how to influence people. It is persuading those people to do that. Rightly so, it is actually ensuring then that they have the influence over those decision-makers. Robert and I disagree. Certain things have been delegated to local members; others have kept very much in the control of the administration or the centre. Now, having that influence there would also encourage more people, I believe, to stand. The reason you do not get some of those people to stand is, firstly, they do not want to be associated with one political party or another, or secondly, they believe they can get better things or more for their community or their community group by being outside of the political arena. Cllr Gordon: I think it is fair to say that it is unlikely that someone is going to be ready to be an effective councillor if they are not already involved in some sort of community voluntary-type activity. Cllr Yeadon: My background is in the third sector and I am the third-sector champion on the council. I think they are absolutely vital for us reaching not only the people who are active within those organisations, but also reaching members of our communities who are harder to reach. The third sector do it better than a lot of statutory organisations. For a hunting ground, I do think that they are an excellent place to find people who are community-minded, community-spirited, and probably have a lot of the same values and ethos in the third sector as in the public sector that we should be encouraging. Q235 Bob Blackman: Looking at the barriers that prevent people from either becoming council candidates or councillors in the first place, or people becoming councillors but only serving for a single term and then giving up, because they have lost the will to live or there are particular barriers in their way, can I ask you each what the issues are that prevent people from standing or encourage them to step down after serving a short term? Robert in particular; your council has come out with a view of saying that remuneration and the attitude of employers needs to change. What are you doing about it? Cllr Gordon: What are we doing about trying to change those attitudes? I suppose not a great deal apart from letting it be known that this is an issue. I will come back to your single termers in a minute, because I was focusing my mind around that. The whole question of the impact on your earning capacity, your career, your pension, of becoming a councillor is a very serious one. We still, though, live in a world where I think a lot of the public would say they think we ought to be doing this as pure voluntary service, which is how it was when I first started. There was a rather peculiar allowance scheme but no one bothered to claim it. Allowances now for front-line councillors, certainly for leading councillors, are high enough to offend the public but not high enough to encourage any sane person to give up their career and earning capacity to take it on. I think it was one of your colleagues who said that nomination papers ought to have a health warning on the bottom saying, Becoming a councillor seriously damages your wealth. There is a whole host of circumstances that you know in your lives as well that can deprive you of office, either in terms of senior office and the pay that goes with it, or of being in administration, or being in opposition rather than being in administration, or losing your seat entirely and having nothing. Those are not in the normal employment sense at all under your own control, so there are huge risks with doing it. That, probably more than the hours and the other challenges of the job, prevents a lot of people coming forward. There is a case I do not specifically argue it because I think in today s climate it would not run particularly well relating to issues around better pension arrangements, parachute payments in the event of defeat or loss of significant office, or some sort of cushion. I am of an age now where if the electorate was unkind enough to dump me, I could go off and do something else; I have been doing this for a long time, and if it had happened to me 10 years ago it would have been seriously financially embarrassing. There is a problem in terms of who can afford to take that risk. I think that is significant. I do not offer you any submissions specifically, but if it is an issue that you are interested in, looking at the skills that councillors need to have and particularly I do not say this in any arrogant sense for leading councillors if they are going to do the job well, they are all people that could hold down pretty well paid jobs in the real world. You are not going to find many of us who are mad enough to come and do it on the present terms if money matters. We all have families to feed and mortgages to pay. In terms of the short-term councillors I think it is interesting. A lot of them are people who, candidly, win marginal seats when the pendulum swings in your

129 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton direction and then they go again. They then find something more interesting to do and you never see them again. Because we have all-out elections next May, I have looked at those colleagues who are standing down at a younger age than you might expect. There is a whole host of reasons. Some of them are clearly connected with family, businesses and things like that, where they say, Sorry, I have to put more time in there. Some of them found it just is not for them. We have touched very briefly on the supply of potential candidates, there are still patches where one oppressed person becomes the councillor and they find it is not for them. They have the courage then to say after four years, I do not want to do this any more. There are others where you have six, 10, 12 candidates fighting for a safe seat. So for a number of them it is just not right for them. I have not been able to identify anybody among those who are standing down from my group other than on age grounds that it is to do with the job. It is to do with other pressures in their life. Obviously if they have decided it is not for them, then that is to do with the job, but I do not think I can see any that says if there was more support, if the pay was better, and so on. Q236 Bob Blackman: Lucinda, any barriers in Leeds that you are overcoming? Cllr Yeadon: The hours that council works are very difficult and not necessarily family-friendly. If you are looking at starting a family, they can be very difficult. We have just had two fairly recently elected Labour members who have just had babies. To get the maternity leave from council it has to go to a vote at full council, which is bizarre. You would not expect that in any other workplace. I do think that is difficult. When I was elected I had an understanding employer who allowed me the time, but in the end I just had to give up my old job because there was no way that I could do my responsibilities as a councillor effectively and properly and hold down the job that I had with a national charity at the same time. I had to make the decision and so I chose this, and hopefully that is not going to go wrong. They are some major barriers, and probably the idea is that to be a councillor you have to be, like I said, a 60-plus-year-old white man there is a certain stereotype so people probably do not think that it is something that they can do and that probably is a massive barrier. Q237 Bob Blackman: Stewart or Stephen, any barriers? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Definitely in terms of hours and, indeed, being accessible. I got a phone call last night at from a resident expecting something to be dealt with. Some councillors will be put off by that. They have a home life, perhaps they have young children, the children have gone to bed, the phone rings at that time, and they will not like it. It does put people off. There are potentially boring meetings: after four years of full council meetings where actually nothing is decided because the administration has decided everything, as they would do, in advance, people ask what really is the point of being there? It does potentially put them off. I have to say some people are put off by the level of political campaigning they have to do to get elected, to be fair. I have done all that; I do not really want to go through all that all over again, is a potential thing. Robert has already alluded to the impact on pensions and career. I have to say I think some of the reasons nowadays some people are put off is the cabinet system whereby the cabinet, which is the administration, has made those decisions, although we are able in some areas now to move back, or will be able to move back, to committee systems. Q238 Bob Blackman: Would you go back if you had the chance? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: We have a semi-committee system on the district council I am on, and I definitely would. I was on a committee system when I was in Harrow, and I would definitely go back to the committee system. It is far more embracing in terms of having discussion across the spectrum in probably a far more non-political way than the cabinet system is. Q239 Bob Blackman: Stewart, anything to add on barriers? Cllr Golton: It is down to time. I know that allowances help, but it is certainly not the main reason why people choose to go into it in the first place. It will be their experience of how they can actually juggle things. Even if you do have a boss who at the beginning says, Yes, it is fine, eventually you might get the message that actually it is not. Therefore, I have no problem with people falling out after a year. If nothing else, they will have experienced enough that they might want to come back in a few years time when they do have more time. The more people that do it the better, because that way you get better understanding in the community. Q240 Mark Pawsey: Do you think the job of councillor, the amount of time it takes, should be reduced such that it can become a wholly part-time interest with meetings only held in the evenings? Or do we need to take the pendulum the other way and say, No, this is not working; we need to have entirely full-time councillors who do not do something else? Just briefly. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Meetings are a very small fraction of what I do as a councillor. Inevitably, council officers work during the day. You need to be able to contact them and speak to them during the day by and large, particularly when you are talking about metropolitan and county levels. It is not a part-time job. You need to be able to access them when the need arises. You just cannot say, I will do the s between 7.00 and 9.00 at night and I will go to the council meeting on the Tuesday evening. It does not work like that. Cllr Gordon: I think Stephen is absolutely spot-on there about the concentration on meetings, particularly in the cabinet system. Although, as Stephen knows, in Hertfordshire we have a pretty wide-ranging panel system that goes a fair way of replicating the inclusiveness before, but yes, it is going on persistently. There was something else I was going to

130 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Ev 60 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton say that has slipped my mind, but if it comes back, I will chip in again. Cllr Golton: The independent remuneration boards that all councils have these days will evaluate the role and decide what it is. Even in a very large authority like Leeds where we have very large wards, it is still considered a part-time occupation, but the remuneration does reflect the amount of people you are probably going to have to work with. If you make it full-time, then you get extra issues in terms of redundancy and things like that. I do not think that is really something that the electorate would like to contemplate. Cllr Yeadon: I do not think it is. I think being a councillor is a way of life, really. When I go do my shop in Morrisons and I meet my constituents, I am not going to turn round to them and say, I am offduty at the moment. I take my notebook so I can pick up the casework while I am in the bread aisle. It is probably a bit of an academic argument about whether it should be full-time or part-time. We should be able to be in a position that meetings are more flexible so they are more family-friendly and more friendly for people who have jobs. I also think having members who have other jobs outside of the council ensures that you get a different perspective on some of the issues that you are dealing with. It means you have a different skills base and it also means that those people are not always in a council bubble, which can sometimes make you lose your view on things. Cllr Gordon: The one point that I was going to make was in terms of the timing of meetings. I appreciate there are probably more people that find evening meetings convenient rather than daytime meetings, but I think Stephen s point is well made, though, about the scale of them. Certainly, I have two female colleagues with young children who can do daytime meetings but could not possibly do evening meetings. It is not entirely a one-way issue. Q241 David Heyes: Councillor Golton, you referred with some feeling a while ago to meeting times being arranged to suit the convenience of officers rather than members. I think it was you that said that. I guess that the inflexibility of officers is an issue you have all had to deal with. In what ways will the support provided by officers have to adapt to the changing needs of councillors? Refer to each of your local authorities; what is the situation like in each of your authorities? Cllr Golton: Do you know, I am going to refer to that example I was going to give earlier the issue about the closed residential homes. The local community were not for it at all. You got a bad time, didn t you? Cllr Yeadon: Yes. Cllr Golton: The solution that was put forward was, Can t we have a social enterprise that is based in the community? and, Let s look at progressive transfer. The officers were extremely resistant. When we said, Can we please do this? they said, No, that does not work. Then I did a bit of research and I found a group that did do it in Sandwell. They said, No, it is nothing like what we have here. We had to really battle to get them to take it on board. In terms of that community leadership element, you think, Right, we know that there is an example of this. We are going to make sure that the officers take advantage of this and learn up on it. I think that is one of the big issues. It is the fact that people who work within an authority and have grown up in an authority and have been promoted through the ranks in an authority are used to working a certain way, and they are used to getting their own way sometimes. Sometimes, we need to inject that challenge for it to happen. Of course, I was able to do it on a local level to say, Here we are, here is an example. I took some local people down to Sandwell to meet the people that did it in their own community. Then we introduced those people to Lucinda, who, in her leadership role as an executive board member, was able to challenge her officers from the other end, so we had a bit of a pincer movement. Cllr Yeadon: Cross-party consulting. Cllr Golton: Through that, the officers now have a better understanding of the world in which they are working in which is different as we said at the very beginning and they are taking on this issue of social enterprise and are running with it and we will actually get a better outcome for people out of it, so instead of things being closed you just find a different governance model. [Interruption.] Chair: Right, I am sorry we are going to have to go away. We will come back and we will try to then just keep you for another quarter of an hour but no more. Committee suspended for a Division in the House. Q242 David Heyes: Well, the question basically was: will officers need to adapt to meet the changing role of councillors? A quick view from each of you on that would be fine. Cllr Golton: We have held a leadership event as well in Leeds City Council recently and, given that all the council employees are affected by the cuts that have come down on to local government, there has been a real point about investing in them and saying, We are going to provide you with these leadership opportunities. Part of it I actually have a flier is where they have opportunities to talk about partnership-building, and it is encouraging innovation within council officers who might join a team where they get told, Oh, no, we work this way, we don t do that, but they are being told from the very top in the leadership that, Your ideas count, and your innovation could make the difference between the service being kept or not being around in a few years time. That kind of encouragement is really important to change those attitudes that you are talking about. Cllr Gordon: I think for most of us, I hope, the political grip at the top of the organisation isn t too much of a problem. As you move down through the operational levels it can get more difficult to make sure that gets through. But that is where I think the inter-relation with the front-line councillor matters. Where you have an officer who is delivering frontline service and a front-line council, they have to be harnessed together. Officers have to understand this is a campaign that I am conducting at the moment that a good relationship with their front-line councillors is an asset to them, not a chore; but equally, the challenge that I am putting to officers at

131 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton that level is to help identify more decisions that can be made susceptible to local variation and local influence in the way we have with the highways stuff. Q243 David Heyes: Isn t that made a lot more difficult as a result of outsourcing? Cllr Gordon: Not if the contracts are appropriately written. We have all sorts of history about our highway contracts, which are the largest ones, but the front-line interrelation with officers, whether they are county council staff or outsource staff doesn t matter, provided the contract is written right and the expectation is right. Let s not suggest everything has always gone perfectly. Yes, there is a challenge to officers, and the challenge to officers is if the political will of the organisation is to make more decisions more locally with more variation and more directly engage with front-line councillors and communities, identify which bit of it is susceptible for that. A lot of it is not; this is all a subsidiarity-type thing. Lots of decisions have to be taken at that level or, say, by traditional representative top democracy processes. More can be made by effective democratic participation through local members, but officers have to help identify what it is that can be switched to that real local variation and local choice. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Certainly officers do have to be in tune with the elected members who make decisions at the end of the day. Yes, they are there to implement what may be the administration s policy that has been agreed by council unanimously, but there are elected councillors behind that, and on a whole raft of decisions members will not be involved. Equally, members sometimes will want to challenge and question why officers have done X. We have the scrutiny functions, in terms of overview and scrutiny, and we have officers having to give evidence of that and some of them that have not liked being challenged as to why they have made decisions. Gone are the days when they were able to present a report to a council committee and have it just be a question of, All agreed? Yes, thank you. Chairman, move to the next item, and so on. Those days have gone and there are, I have to say, fewer and fewer officers who are tuned to that, but there are still some people in that mindset that have spent hours and hours bringing this report and they don t like their report being torn to shreds at the cabinet panel, such as in the case of Hertfordshire County Council. Q244 David Heyes: Or even before it gets that far. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Or even before it gets that far perhaps, yes. But they have to realise that is what they are in because we are in that role of challenging what they had brought forward. Cllr Yeadon: Stewart is right in the work that we ve done in Leeds to try to support and motivate our officers, and there has also been a political-awareness training that I have been involved in where council officers have come and met a councillor. Some of them would not have had that opportunity before, and that is quite bizarre. But I think you are right; I think outsourcing does affect the relationship between councillors and officers, because you start to ask, What is the role of a local councillor and how do we influence the governance of the contracts that we hold? Then I think officers struggle to see, in commissioning, what the role of the local councillor is, and how you ensure that you stick to those procurement rules and the rest of it. It is a difficult relationship and we need to ensure local members still have some accountability to those services that are being commissioned on behalf of the council, and it is really important that our local members feel some ownership of that as well. It is vital to have a good relationship with the officers if you are going to be effective and I think sometimes there are tensions in officer and member relations. Officers also need to recognise if they are organising meetings in an inappropriate timeslot for members, members should tell the officers and say, I can t do that; I ll do it at this time, and assert a bit of authority. Perhaps that is easy when you are in an exec position, and maybe it is harder for backbenchers, but I think we need to just sometimes remind officers who the council is. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: One thing I would say about bad officers and my experience of good and bad officers throughout the years is irrespective of which party you represent or non you are there to try to represent and do the best for your community and your residents. Most officers, by and large, understand that and if, say, there is a red-tape problem with it, they are the sort to say, Well, actually there is a problem, and we can t do it this way, but how about doing it this way? because as an individual you will not know all the ways around the system and the various nuances, perhaps of social services or housing regulations, so you are reliant on officers making their own suggestions. But if they know you are there to try to do the best for the residents then they are working with you and that is the best sort of officer/ member relationship you can have. Q245 Simon Danczuk: I wanted to ask briefly about the training that your authorities provide to elected councillors. I was reading in Hertfordshire that you, Provide training around communications, consultations, skills and techniques trying to create these social activists in terms of the submission that Leeds have said: We are trying to get councillors to utilise less formal social networks, participatory democracy. It is all a bit soft, isn t it? It is all a bit wishy-washy, is it not, all this? Do we not need councillors that can read a spreadsheet; is that not what we are after? Cllr Gordon: We do. There are two not distinct functions, but let s simplify it and have two distinct functions. There are those sorts of responsibilities the spreadsheet, the budgeting, the eye-level stuff that falls on the whole council in one sense, but in reality on the leadership of the cabinet, the leadership of the opposition. Those are significant roles, but all of us are front-line councillors and my submission that I made to you because you can only cover part of this territory was in that front-line role. In that frontline role we need these much softer skills and so, yes, that is what we are talking about there, and I could not put it better than I have already put it in what you

132 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Ev 62 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton have read back to me, so that is what we are trying to do. Some people have some of those skills. Some are willing to try to learn them. Some of them just will not engage with it at all; that is the nature of the beast. But if we are trying to move to a situation where councillors help communities run themselves, it is those sorts of skills that are important for those of us and in one sense it is all of us on whom the burden of running the council sits, this whole range of other training, provided in-house and through the LGA and others, as well as the leadership course at Leeds Castle and all that sort of stuff that I and colleagues have been on. I say that the submission from which you have quoted is very much about that front-line role that we all have first and foremost. Q246 Simon Danczuk: Okay, Lucinda, what is training like for councillors in Leeds? Is it enough? Is there enough going on? Cllr Yeadon: We have got a good member development department in Leeds. It does depend on how well members engage with that. I quite enjoy going to training and I do as much as I can. Q247 Simon Danczuk: But those that need it don t have it, is that not the case? Cllr Yeadon: Yes. I think that is probably fair to say, if you are wanting to develop and you are wanting to kind of gain those skills, you will go out and find the training for it and you have to have a certain selfawareness as well to know what you need development on. Simon Danczuk: Yes. Cllr Golton: And an open mind, because at the end of the day your development is useful because you have officers that will have experience in terms of how to give training and also they will keep you up to date with legislative changes. So, when the Localism Act comes in they will make sure that there are briefings and make sure that you are aware of the implications for that neighbourhood planning. I think it is also incumbent upon councillors to go out and talk to other parts of the productive end of society that is working within your city or your area. You do need to engage with the third sector when they have their events, you do need to talk to the private sector when they have their events, you do need to understand their circumstances, so then you can go back to your own officers and say, Well, yes, the council is meant to be the lead partner for the rest of the city, but it also needs to be responsible and responsive to the needs of others so that they can play their part. Q248 Simon Danczuk: Okay, and just briefly, are the budgets in terms of staff support for councillors and training holding up in your local authority, Robert, or have they been cut? Cllr Gordon: They are pretty lean but they have not been reduced in terms of the outcome. I hope that some of them are being run more efficiently than might have been the case before. But, no, we very deliberately have not put in place as some councils did perhaps when money was more readily available neighbourhood support officers to support front-line councillors. I think that just loses the whole thing because the lazy ones say, Well, speak to the officer, and the community gets confused in terms of who is the person that does the job. Support for frontline councillors, in the way that officers talk to them and keep them informed, is important. Training we have kept up, and whether it is training for councillors or training for staff, anybody that cuts their training is creating a problem for the future. We have kept up our graduate training course and things like that, despite very difficult financial times. Chair: Just very briefly, Stephen. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is very lean. Basically all the opposition members share one member of staff for secretarial support and, yes, we get a PC if we want to use it, and that is it. Q249 Simon Danczuk: Each? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Yes. Q250 Simon Danczuk: Lucinda, are the budgets holding up in Leeds, then? Cllr Yeadon: We have well-resourced group officers, but we have major budget cuts to our local government grants. If we are looking at where to make savings, I am sure the public would much rather we look at how councillors are supported, rather than within the adult social care or children s budgets. We have to make sure that we are being as effective as possible with the funding, but the funding situation within most local authorities is pretty difficult and we are trying to do more with a lot less. Simon Danczuk: Okay; thank you. Q251 Mark Pawsey: May I just ask a follow-up question on training? Is training mandatory in any of your authorities, and are there any committees or functions of a council that members should not be able to participate in without having had training? Cllr Gordon: Yes, development control is a key one; we don t have licensing. Perhaps even something in standards. There are certain functions which members cannot be appointed to unless they are trained, but in terms of the wider personal training Q252 Mark Pawsey: Is that right? Cllr Gordon: That is right, yes, particularly in development control and licensing. There is such a legal framework to it but in terms of personal skills training, there is no sanction that can be brought to bear. As has been hinted at, often those who need it most are those that participate least. Q253 Mark Pawsey: And the same in Leeds? Cllr Golton: Yes. Cllr Golton: Anything that is quasi-traditional. Cllr Yeadon: Yes. Q254 Mark Pawsey: Okay. I want to ask questions to Councillors Gordon and Giles-Medhurst, if I may, particularly with regard to the issue of two-tier authorities. What particular challenges are there in working in a two-tier system? I say that as somebody

133 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton who has sat as a district councillor and represents a two-tier authority area. Cllr Gordon: Yes. It adds a complication. That is not to say that necessarily it is a bad thing. I think the shire areas do represent themselves in various different community levels and certainly town and parishes, even more locally than districts, but it does mean there is not that simple clarity. I talk about the visibility, the accountability, the brokerage of the local councillor; in reality that is one county councillor, but there will probably be six borough councillors and there may be a dozen or so and more town and parish councillors, so that sort of visibility and accountability becomes more complicated. Generally, I think colleagues work together pretty well across the tiers, even where there are party-political differences. But there will be some, even where there are not party political differences, where, for some reason, interpersonally they do not get on. It is more complicated, but I think even if that were not the case as in Leeds unitary authority but with multimember constituents you still have a certain complication in terms of, Who is my local representative? You gentlemen have the advantage of there is one of you in the patch of your communities, and you make the best of it. Q255 Mark Pawsey: Do the public know who is responsible for what? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: No. Cllr Gordon: Not sufficiently, no. I think there is a real confusion in my mind here. Part of me says that in terms of democratic accountability of course the public should know and should cast their ballots accordingly. Of course, we know a lot of them cast their ballots according to what is going on up here rather than what is going on in their community anyway. The other part of me says that it is our problem, not their problem and we shouldn t trouble the public to work out which council or which public agency is responsible for something. They just want an answer, and we ought to deliver it. I am slightly torn on that. I lean more towards the line that says, We just need to get on with the job, and if someone gets in touch with me because their waste bins aren t being collected, I do not say, That is nothing to do with me; have a word with your borough councillor. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I do exactly the same in respect of which area I am representing. But where it does get complicated is when residents do not understand the differences between the different tiers of authorities and, of course, one of its complications it is a very simple thing is the billing authority for your council tax comes from the district or the borough council. Yes, it is split down how much the precept is for the county council, how much it is for the police and if you are in the parish or town how much that is, but very few residents will ever read that sort of detail. They assume all the money goes to the billing authority, and when you explain 77% goes to the county, which is responsible for a vast range of services more than the billing authority, they may not understand but it is very rare you get the opportunity. Q256 Mark Pawsey: All right. In a two-tier authority, is it appropriate for a member to sit on both authorities? Is there a conflict of interest if he does so? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: No, definitely not. I sit on two different authorities, although not for the same area. I was asked this question at selection, because I am up for election next year: is it a conflict? No; when I am a county councillor I am representing my issues as a county councillor and the county council s view and politically, and the same on the district council. Q257 Mark Pawsey: You are on both the district and the county? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Yes. Q258 Mark Pawsey: What about if there is a conflict between the two bodies and the interests of one council are in one direction and the interests of the other council are in another direction, how can you possibly reconcile this? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It has not come up, I have to say. If there is a motion to the district council about a county issue, I am there as a district councillor and I am representing the district council and my district council residents. If it is an issue on the county then it is the same. I have to say there has not been that conflict. Q259 Mark Pawsey: Councillor Gordon, are you on both? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: The vast majority of county councillors in Hertfordshire are on either two authorities or on another authority. Q260 Mark Pawsey: Most councillors represent more than one council? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Most county councillors are twin-trackers, another reason for having county council meetings during the day is because there were district council meetings in the evening. Q261 Mark Pawsey: Is that a decision of your party; what is the Conservative view? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: No, it is the lack of finding candidates, I suspect. Cllr Gordon: I think there are a number of strands to this. I ve been a twin-tracker but the pressures mean that it is inappropriate. Stephen is in a slightly odd situation in that your county seat and your district seat are in different district areas, so even less likely to be a conflict. To be fair, the conflicts are very few. Sometimes the conflict of time, if you are left with a small majority which isn t a problem we ve had for a while in terms of who is going to be at which meeting if there is a conflict. There are things of that nature. But broadly, I think it is helpful to have a number of twin-trackers because it means there is that understanding across the join of the two councils. For a while, one of the districts in Hertfordshire did not have any twin-trackers at all, although it was not quite a rule. Q262 Mark Pawsey: But a twin-tracker

134 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :01] Job: Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_ HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml Ev 64 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton Cllr Gordon: The relationship was more difficult, because there was not that voice on each that understood what the other was doing. Q263 Mark Pawsey: Sure, but given the pressure on time we have heard about in relation to twin-trackers, he is pretty much a professional councillor then, isn t he, so we are in an era of professional councillors. Cllr Gordon: I think broadly district councillors can just about cope with a full-time job, certainly a backbencher, whereas upper-tier councillors probably cannot. I think that there are potential conflicts, and certainly I have a personal position I know a number of my district colleague leaders have as well that you would not appoint someone to the cabinet of two authorities. Mark Pawsey: No, that is fine. Cllr Gordon: Partly that is a conflict of time, but also it is more likely that you might get into a situation where you are making a building proposal wearing one hat and the development control is being considered by the other councils. We do not have any cabinet members in more than one council but, yes, 50% plus are twin-trackers. That is fairly common nationwide. It is not just a shortage of candidates. I think some of it is the words you put that there is more of a sort of full-time professional councillor, even though the total remuneration might only add up to 15,000 or 20,000 a year. It is nothing like a proper job if you were a backbencher or a smaller position on two councils. Q264 Mark Pawsey: Thank you, and, to bring Leeds in, what are the particular challenges caused by being in a large city? Cllr Golton: I think that is more of a challenge for the executive members, in that it is a very diverse community and you will have some very affluent wards on the outskirts of the city and some of the very greatest deprivation in the centre. Of course, when you are facing Government funding, which is based upon formulae that are supposed to suit everybody, it means that sometimes your poorer districts do not get the attention they deserve because your richer environs on the outside average them out. Q265 Mark Pawsey: But as a councillor you represent the community as a whole? Cllr Golton: You represent your own community, primarily. When you are a councillor and you are in full council and you are deciding council policy, then you also need to take into account the interest of the city as a whole, and, of course, as an executive member you need to make sure that you have equity in ensuring that the quality of services delivered is commensurate with each community. The challenge in the future will be bespoke services, which will mean that some communities will get some things and some communities will not. Q266 Mark Pawsey: Nobody said being a councillor was easy, Councillor. Cllr Golton: No. Cllr Yeadon: The size of the city wards are pretty big, with 16,000, I think, in one ward. Cllr Golton: It is about 10,000 households. Cllr Yeadon: But then it is interesting when you talk about conflicts of interest, because if you think about conflicts of interest that we may have as an executive member and as a ward member, we had to close some libraries because of budget cuts last year, one of the libraries we decided to close was in my ward. I have to sometimes put aside Q267 Mark Pawsey: But those are the conflicts that all councillors face. Cllr Yeadon: Exactly, and it is just ensuring that you have the judgment to be able to reconcile the two. Sometimes that can be difficult, particularly if you have a very active community who have a very strong view. The discussion about if you have conflicts between two types of council was interesting; often you have those conflicts within one council. Q268 Chair: Just one very briefly; just a yes or no. Do both councils have independent panels to advise on remuneration, and do you always accept their advice? Cllr Gordon: For as long as I have been leader five years now yes. Indeed, once they recommended a rise that I felt was inappropriate, and we referred it back asking them for a freeze. Chair: Right. Cllr Golton: No, we do not always take their advice, because it is necessarily a voting council and you will always be portrayed as voting for a pay rise. Cllr Yeadon: We took a pay cut. Cllr Golton: In fact, indeed, recently the executive members took a 3% pay cut. Chair: Right, okay. Thank you all very much, and thank you for staying for so long with us; it is outside of our control, and we very much appreciate the time you have given and the contribution you have made. Thank you very much.

135 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 65 Monday 22 October 2012 Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair) Bob Blackman Simon Danczuk David Heyes James Morris Mark Pawsey Heather Wheeler Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Paul Wheeler, Director, Political Skills Forum, Nan Sloane, Director, Centre for Women and Democracy, Robert Howard, former councillor, and Councillor Robert Knowles, Leader, Waverley Borough Council, gave evidence. Q269 Chair: Good afternoon and welcome to you all. Thank you for coming to our fourth evidence session for the Inquiry into Councillors and the Community. Just for our records, could you all say at the beginning who you are and the organisation, if any, that you represent? Robert Knowles: I am Councillor Robert Knowles. I am Leader of Waverley Borough Council. Robert Howard: I am Robert Howard and I am retired. Nan Sloane: I am Nan Sloane and I am the Director for the Centre for Women and Democracy. Paul Wheeler: My name is Paul Wheeler. I am Director of the Political Skills Forum, currently working as Interim Head of Office in Oldham. Q270 Chair: Thank you very much. You are all welcome. Let me just say right at the beginning that, if there is a question asked and you basically agree with what someone else has said, you can just say, I agree. There is no need to repeat it, because we have a limited amount of time, as always, and we want to try to get in as many questions and cover as much ground as possible. The first question then, starting with whoever takes it first: is the role of a councillor these days incompatible with a full-time job and is that effectively why we have so many retired people who are on councils? Robert Knowles: Shall I take that? I think the simple answer is probably yes, because certainly in a rural district such as mine it is fine to call itself a borough; it is really a rural district council a lot of people travel into London to work, and although we sit generally at seven in the evening, a third of the council is required to attend during the day as well for meetings such as licensing with the public, and if you are working you cannot do that. So it becomes very, very difficult to fully participate. Paul Wheeler: I think we have to be very careful about this, otherwise we do make it a job that only the rich and the retired can do. Let me say, first of all, that I think being a councillor is absolutely compatible with having a job and a family at most levels. Now, part of that depends on whether the council supports you in the job, and you might want to talk about that, because if they just throw you to the wolves and say, Congratulations, you have been elected; now you are answering all your own letters, it does make it more difficult. I think my qualification would be that, if you progress up the political ladder, particularly in larger authorities so if you are the leader of a metropolitan borough or the leader of a London council I think that probably is getting towards full-time. Certainly when I give advice to people when they progress, I say, Think about it really hard. If you are going in the cabinet, you certainly need to think about two or three days a week, particularly in a large authority, and if you are going to be leader at some time, you probably need to go full-time or take a secondment. But always bear in mind that is not a hereditary role. You may have to get back to the world of work, either because your group or the electorate decide that, so bear that in mind. If you can change and certainly in my experience a lot of people use local politics to change their job in terms of the skills that they learn think about doing something else. But always bear in mind that ultimately you will have to find some work. Local politics does not pay a great deal. It may support you for a number of years, but it should be, and I think part of this Inquiry is to make sure that it is, compatible with working and having a family, otherwise we end up with a very odd lot of councillors. Robert Howard: I might be an exception inasmuch as I did my period of being a councillor from 1970 to 1984, and I was a councillor between the ages of 25 and 40, and I am in no doubt as to why I stopped being a councillor. For the last few years I was a full-time councillor, because I was chairing East Midlands Airport, which was a full-time job. But the interesting reason why I stopped was basically because it was impossible to represent my community without upsetting someone else along the line, and this is really what happens. I would suggest for a number of people one of the biggest deterrents of continuing as a councillor when they start young is that they realise that, if you are being elected to serve your community, one of the hardest things that you can do when you have finished your term is serve your community, because you are up there, you are in a top job and other people are nudging you and saying, Look, do not talk about your place. You are queering my pitch. I think the thing you need to think about is that younger people probably come in when there is an opportunity for a clear out. It was no coincidence that, as in 1970, and I have seen similar events since, when there is a great big political change in the system, the older members who have lost in the elections basically get cold feet and they drop out. That is when the

136 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 66 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles youngsters get their opportunities, and certainly in Nottingham, where I come from, you will find a fair number of younger councillors who are certainly career-minded. The other frustration with being a councillor is very simply this: that you have maybe a quarter of the council holding office, being the strategists in the portfolio jobs, getting money, and you have the rest there as backbenchers. That is as big a turn off as anything, and certainly a number of young people I know who would be interested say, Why should I go and spend the next four or eight years on the backbenches, because I do not have a hope in hell of getting a position of responsibility? Q271 Chair: Nan, obviously, you can come in and perhaps you could maybe, in parallel, address the issue about whether it is even more difficult for women, perhaps with responsibilities as well, to find the time to become councillors. Nan Sloane: I was indeed about to say that I think most women find, as indeed Margaret Thatcher found and said, that you can do two things at once but not three: you can have a job and be a councillor; you can have a job and a family or be responsible for a family; you can be a councillor and be responsible for a family; but it is extraordinarily difficult to do all three at the same time. I think an increasing number, I may say, of young men also find that as the culture changes. But I think it is particularly true for women, and all the work that we have done, whether on councillors or women in leadership roles in local government, has got the same age profile of it being reasonable for young women, dropping towards the end of the 20s like a stone, and then starting to rise again towards the end of the 40s and into 50s, and I think that is wrong. I think people are right that it should not be like that, and we need to find a solution to that. I certainly agree that we should not have the kind of public life that restricts, by its nature, the people who can take part in it. But I think we have to be clear-headed about what the position is for most people, and for most people it is that it is impossible. Q272 Chair: Perhaps we can just come on to that point about this group of people. As you say, quite a lot of the evidence we have had from councillors we have spoken to and from others is that there are councillors around in their 20s. Quite a few very able, enthusiastic young councillors, and many of them do not stand again. It seems in the 30s, 40s and early 50s there is then a gap, and many councils have hardly anyone in those age groups. Then again you get older people coming back on to the council or coming to council for the first time. I just wonder whether we can do anything to get that middle group of people to get people to stay on or to come in at that age. Paul Wheeler: Just on this, because I think the point I touched on, and I am sure my colleagues will address it as well, is this question about support. Basically if you say to someone, Congratulations, you have been elected; you are on your own, which is essentially what we say to a lot of councillors, it is going to be very difficult both to that sense of purpose about achieving things, but also running what is essentially a very large organisation. So the issue of support to elected members is really important and one that I know other organisations are trying to address, and I think that is particularly true to executive members. I will give you one specific example from where we are now, in Westminster. It is not renowned for splashing money around, but every single member of the cabinet in Westminster has a full-time researcher and access to a PA, which means they are all in work and basically when they go into a meeting with senior managers and external organisations the brief is prepared. So they can bat really well for their organisation without feeling they are letting their council down or economising on their job. Now, that is gold-plated, but I think a lot of councils can think about how they support their councillors. There are some really good role models out there; Liverpool is a good example. I know we are in times of restraint, but I always say: go into a leader s office and go into a chief executive s office, and when the level of support to a leader is the same as a chief executive, that organisation has probably got it right. That is particularly true when you are looking for leaders in their 30s or 40s. Now, there are a number of examples I can quote of leaders in their 30s and 40s who have stayed on and are doing a brilliant job, and it is partly because the organisation has recognised they need support and also their group have recognised they need support, because this is a group activity. It is a team sport, local politics, and I think the more that members support each other and the organisation does, the more likely you are to get a representative group. Robert Knowles: I think we need to notice the difference between unitary authorities, which my colleagues are talking about, and the district authority in three tiers, because as the leader of a district authority I get virtually no support, but I get 100 s a day and lots of letters. Members get 50-odd s a day, and I think this is something that puts people off standing again, because they do not join to be just cannon fodder and deal with s that are automatically sent to a lot of people. It must have been very easy to be a councillor when people had to write a letter, but now they just send s everywhere and it is quite difficult, and that is doubtless one of the things that puts people off, certainly in the smaller district authorities, where there are not the support staff. Q273 Chair: I will throw the question back to you and have the other witnesses come in on the same point in a second. You are leader of the council; why do you not do something about it? Robert Knowles: Because we do not have the money to do anything about it. It is all very well, but we are restricted in what we can spend. I do share a PA with the chief executive, but that is it, and every councillor is expected to do s at home. Perhaps they are expecting us to be helped at home, but you are not. Paul Wheeler: I understand that. I have been involved in local politics for 40 years and I have seen the ups and downs of it, and money is tight, but one thing a number of councils that I have been associated with

137 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles have done is write to a local university and say, Look, we know you have keen political graduates. They all seem to want to go and work in Westminster. Why don t some of them come and work in the local council with the leader and the group? That gives you enormous capacity, because you are getting a fresh face, there is energy and I think that is one quick win of supporting groups. They are coming in to support a political organisation, and I think it can give you some of that capacity if you need to do research and it costs you nothing. But ultimately, I think you have to take this job seriously and one of my problems with councillors is sometimes they do not take themselves seriously. They are quite happy to have no support at all. It is not so much the internal signals that sends out but the external ones. If you are going to meet your partner organisations and you have not been properly briefed and you are wondering what time the meeting starts, because you do not have a PA, I think what it says is that the politicians in this town are not taken seriously. Whether it is district, unitary or London boroughs, you do need to be taken seriously, and if you need the support, you should find it. Nan Sloane: The problem is that as a society we do not take politicians seriously, if I may say so, and we do not have the conversations that think through what we want politicians to do and what the job is at either national or local level. We therefore end up with people doing a job that has grown organically, almost, out of a set of very varying expectations. So we have the expectation, in the case of local government, that local councillors will run the authority and will be responsible for service delivery, raising financing, and strategic decisions. In the case of large authorities, these are very significant strategic decisions around very significant budgets indeed. But, at the same time, they will be grassroots politicians, they will be doing surgeries every week, they will be available on a 24-hour basis. They will live in their wards, they will be constantly available, they will take up local causes and local cases, and all of these things are very valuable things for people to be doing, but in authorities like Birmingham and Leeds, for instance, where the wards are very large, they are close to impossible to do at the best of times. Certainly for women with domestic responsibilities, it is extremely difficult to do that and have a full-time job at the same time. For many women the decision is not just about whether they want to be a councillor or not, but whether they can afford to be a councillor and give up what may be a well-paid job that is bringing income into the family that is necessary. It is partly about the culture of politics overall and the culture of our society, which at the moment finds it very difficult to have the sorts of conversations about politics that would sort some of these issues out. Robert Howard: I was going to say that I am not in favour necessarily of what I would call the professionalisation route, and I certainly do not agree with the interpretation somehow that most councillors are involved in strategic decision-making, because the plain truth is they are not, because you have portfolio holders or chairs of committees who have immense power, who make decisions without any reference to committees as such. Also, of course, these are the very same people who control the mechanisms that provide what support there is to the councillors on the backbenches at present who might have some power through an area committee. My solution certainly is to use the existing powers to give existing councillors more powers so that they can run the services in their ward and they have some assistance to do that. In certain cases, like where I live in Lenton, in inner city Nottingham, we have an established community forum, started by the community, that has been in place for 16 years. It would be more than capable of providing that role to the local councillors. Unfortunately, the City Council chose to duplicate us and to create its own community forum. So we have a forum that has been run by the community for the last 16 years that is still going and then, on top of that, you now have the City Council community forum, because God forbid that they should devolve power down to a community that has shown competence over the years. We took over the running of the leisure centre when they closed it. We contributed to the ward boundaries that now exist a whole range of things. We saved the local park as a community. I say this as someone who is a member of the Labour Party and I am talking about a Labour council. Q274 Simon Danczuk: How do we persuade employers to give councillors time off to carry out their council duties? Paul Wheeler: Some of them already do. A lot of the established firms, like Tesco and so on, already do. They treat councillors like they treat people in public service, and I think that is to be commended. I think the problem comes with some of the smaller organisations, where there are some real issues. If you employ five or six people, how do you cope when someone is going to leave? There are no easy answers, but a couple of years ago the LGA sponsored the Good Employer Award, which celebrated organisations and had a fantastic response. The thing I remember it is residual now is that there were a lot of firms, particularly in the north of England, who said, Having a councillor is a sign of civic pride, a bit like having a brass band, and we support that. I think it was the Redcar Mining Company: when one of their employees became the mayor, they gave him a year off on full pay, saying, This is a tremendous tribute to us and the town. I think that is going, unfortunately, so the question is how do you do it? Even small things, like the conversations I have, particularly with younger people: In the modern age can you get your council s at work so that you can, say, at lunchtime, deal with that? If your organisation has video conferencing, can you do some meetings during the day, particularly long distances? I think it is a bit like that. I think it would help if the Government and the CBI and other people said that being a councillor is a good thing, like being in the Territorial Army is a good thing. I think that is the par we need to do it. It is not about money, and I think ultimately some people will say, We just cannot afford to let you go, but I think we should encourage and celebrate the big firms like Tesco and Unilever who do this and try to find ways

138 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 68 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles of helping the other people as well. But it can be done and I think coming back to the point Nan was saying we have to be much more confident about saying being a councillor is a form of public service. So just as you would celebrate being a magistrate and help that, being a councillor, while political, is also civic, and I think we have lost that in the last 20 years. Q275 Simon Danczuk: Are there any other views on getting employers to help and assist? Robert Howard: In theory, they are there to help and, albeit a long time ago, I am someone who lost my job twice as a result of being a councillor, once in Birmingham and once in Nottinghamshire. So I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of an employer deciding that they do not want to have you anymore. Fortunately, in such circumstances, I was able to weather the storm, because when I lost my job as a county councillor my colleagues said, Well, hey, running the airport is a full-time job, so basically I simply went on to allowances for the five days a week. It was a small income, but we survived and I had made up my mind by then that I was never going to work again full-time. I have a smaller pension now, but I have never worked more than three days a week, so that I have been able to indulge in community activities. That has been my commitment to the grassroots, because I believe local communities can do more for themselves. It is not about persuading you guys, because I think Parliament has done probably as much as it can. It is about persuading local councillors to let go, especially those in the leadership positions, because they are the ones who simply want to hang on to the power all the time, and yet the mechanisms are there, because of you, to enable more power to end up with people like us. Q276 Simon Danczuk: Let me turn to councillors allowances. Robert, do you think councils are too afraid of public opinion to increase councillors allowances? Robert Knowles: Yes, without any doubt whatsoever. As long as I have been a member of my authority, whenever the review panel comes up with figures, it is always refused, because the time is not right. There is no doubt that a number of backbenchers do it at a loss; because the allowance is so small and then subject to tax, they end up with very little. We have a youth council and we are all out every four years. When we recruited last year we held an evening in the council chamber for anyone who was interested. A lot of people came and somebody dared to ask the question, What is the allowance? and once they were told, you could see their faces drop, and nobody who came to that meeting stood for council. Q277 Simon Danczuk: So why don t you increase the allowances then? Robert Knowles: We have just increased by 1%; I think that gave them 2,000 a year. We do intend, in this coming year, to increase the allowances. Q278 Simon Danczuk: But why not significantly? Robert Knowles: We will significantly. Q279 Simon Danczuk: You are going to increase them significantly. That will be a news story tomorrow in your local area. That is part of the problem, isn t it? Go on. Robert Howard: I think one of the problems, if you listen to the vox pop out there, as I do because I am active in the community, is basically that people think, unfortunately, that most of our local ward councillors who are not in a position of authority are earning 30,000 to 40,000 a year, whereas they are on 11,000 to 12,000 a year and it is a totally different animal for them. The trouble is the local media only reports the headline figure about the top ones, and yet you can go on to the council website and basically see a list, and the vast majority of Nottingham councillors are on about 1,000 a month. I do not think that is a lot of money, quite frankly. I certainly think that, when you take on the job, for the four years you take it on you ought to get a living wage so that you can devote yourself to it, and that is why I am in favour of four-year terms. Paul Wheeler: I think you are all in the same boat when I say you, I mean MPs and councillors because you are the front face of this. I have often said to councillors, Why don t you do an allowance map for your authority and find out what the chair of the school of governors is getting and all the people in the NHS, because I think people would be absolutely staggered to know the amount of public money being spent on basically invisible people. I think you would find out then that there is a good case for certainly the leader of council I think councillors are slightly different as a body to have a substantial increase on the basis that they are the voice of the town as much as the town hall. I have listened to stories about councillors allowances for years and the one thing is, if you are going to have allowances that are realistic, you also have to have performance measures that are realistic, because I think the idea of going to a council meeting three times a year and collecting 10,000 is what people get really cross about. If you were working every month for the hours that people claim across the board, I think you would find that people are much more relaxed about it. They will never be happy, but, as I say, you could say, A councillor gets an allowance, and for that they will do so many hours, and the leader is the leader of the town, just as with elected mayors. I do not think anyone minds elected mayors getting 60,000 to 70,000 as long as they are seen to do the job. But why don t we find out how much is paid in public money across the board in a locality? I think we would all be surprised by who is earning a lot for very little. Q280 Simon Danczuk: Would it help if we had a national framework? Paul Wheeler: The Scots and the Welsh have done that, and I do not think it has helped that much, because it does not answer the question about performance. The problem about councillors, much as I love councillors, is they all want to get paid the same and no one is ever going to criticise a colleague for being really lazy, and I think ultimately you have to.

139 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles Robert Knowles: For the record, because a lot of things have been thrown about and I think I need to get it quite straight, the annual allowance in my district is 2,454. If you are throwing a thousand pounds a month around, I thought we better get on the record. Q281 Simon Danczuk: I was a councillor in Blackburn 15 years ago and I think the basic allowance was that then. I do not understand why it has not moved on. Robert Knowles: Yes, it is well out of touch. Robert Howard: That is the danger: nobody should think about putting local government into straitjackets. Graham Allen, who I think you have had before you, and I am a great fan I would regard myself as one of his groupies would say to you that you should have the Magna Carta of local government and let local government have a whole series of different models for different places. As I said in my evidence, there are councils in West Dorset where there is one councillor for 1,500 voters. You go into Birmingham, where I was a councillor, and it is one councillor for 20,000 voters. The models are so different and I do not think they should all have to converge. I think the parliamentary reform at the moment of trying to fit it into such a tight jacket of between this and that is impossible, and communities should be allowed to be different. If local government is anything, it is a celebration of localism and local democracy, and so you have different models for different places and different levels of reward, because the work is different. Simon Danczuk: You must be the first and only groupie I have met of Graham Allen, and the last one I will ever meet Nan Sloane: I think there are some real problems, though, about treating public office as though it is a job. Because, unlike a job, it has no job security, councillors get no redundancy pay if they lose, they cannot guarantee that they will be on a front bench from one year to the next, and their political parties very rarely take responsibility for performance management or quality control. Most political parties are very poor at getting rid of councillors once it is manifestly obvious to everybody that they ought to go and they are equally poor at recruiting, training and developing. If, in the middle of all that, we say, But for this period you will have national terms and conditions and performance management, but all the other things that should surround that will not happen, then I think we are setting up something artificial. I think the problem is the underlying problem of us not being entirely clear about what it is we want people to do and what we want them to sacrifice to do it. There is no doubt that, even if you have a compliant employer and you can afford to do it for the period that you are in office, you are almost certainly having to give up any hope of a long-term career, because in most cases the amount of time out that you will have will have much the same effect that repeated periods of maternity leave have for women s careers in industry. So I think there needs to be some consideration about it as a whole package rather than just picking off bits and saying, If we do that, we start to solve the problem. Q282 Simon Danczuk: But are you saying they should not be rewarded financially? Nan Sloane: No, no, I am not saying that at all. In fact, I think the problem we have at the moment is that the system is neither fish nor fowl, and we have gone from a system when I was a councillor of not getting an allowance at all; you just got paid expenses and travel. I cannot remember what you got paid for attending a meeting, but it was not very much, but there was good attendance at meetings because you did not get paid if you did not go. Then it moved to the system where you got paid a flat rate, but the flat rate was not enough to make it attractive to people who were going to sacrifice either their home life or their careers or both to it. Q283 Simon Danczuk: So are you saying it should be increased? Nan Sloane: Personally, I think that, if you want somebody to do a job, you have to pay them properly to do it, and I agree that there are difficulties with professionalising it, because I do not think that is what the public expects or necessarily wants. Paul Wheeler: I am just going to put my hands on the table, because there is a councillors despair that you can have: that it is all doomed, no one ever votes and all the people who are councillors are hopeless. I am not saying my colleagues are saying that, but I have heard that said. There is another view, which is we should be celebrating the fact that people get elected and look for the remit of their peers, whether this is in schools or in youth councils. I think that is the sort of spectrum that you should see being a councillor on. It is not just doing it because it is the thing to do. It is a whole spectrum, which can end up in so many different ways. I have seen people grow as councillors who have stopped being councillors and got a fantastic job, which they would not have got if they did not have the confidence of being in the council chamber. The problem is we just look at councillors in isolation, but it is that whole spectrum of how you get more people wanting to be elected and advocate for their peers, whether in schools, colleges, in councils, in trade unions and everything else, where, frankly, if we do not have that, we have what I call the armchair person who just moans all the time, The town is crap, the council is crap, and you never challenge them and say, Well, you go and do something. But we might need shallow pools to do it. I do take that point. Standing for a big council might be a thing, and the point about small community councils and parish councils and good town councils is the shallow pool and perhaps we have neglected that in the past, particularly in towns, in my experience. Q284 David Heyes: It is interesting that each of the four of you has displayed a different perception of what being a councillor entails. I guess in the wider community there is a massive range of perceptions. I just wonder to what extent that lack of clarity, that lack of a shared understanding of what being a

140 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 70 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles councillor is about, puts people off standing for election. Robert Knowles: I think that you have to realise that one size does not fit all. It is very different being a councillor on a unitary authority to a county authority to a district authority, because you have different responsibilities. I think the public do not understand that, because they will phone their district councillor to complain about the potholes and their answer is, We are not the highways authority, and this is the situation. If you are on a unitary, you do have a wide spectrum of responsibilities, at the district you don t, but the public really don t realise that. You may be right that that would put some people off standing, because perhaps they consider standing for a district but think it would be too onerous, because they think you have all those responsibilities. We try to make it plain, but you can only say it so many times. Robert Howard: The problem is that my colleague here is talking about the difference between a district and a county. I promise you, you get exactly the same problems within a unitary authority, because our local councillors don t serve on the highways committee. So therefore, basically, we have zebra crossings and other crossings that do not work, have problems and lights without crossings and things like this: I am sorry, it is very hard to do something about this, because that is not my responsibility. So even within a unitary authority, councillors representing a ward kow-tow to their colleagues who have those wider responsibilities, which is why I have become an advocate of mini-mayors, if you like to call them that, leading their community, working with their local community, and taking responsibility for services that relate to that area. Basically, Hazel Blears, in 2007, gave councillors that power, providing local authorities let them exercise it, but of course they are not. Local care services in Nottingham would be far better run if they were run by the local community, but in fact what we saw where I live in Lenton was a Carelink service provided by local people lose out when the City Council decided it was easier to have a citywide contract. When you get a citywide contract, groups like Lenton Carelink lose out as they cannot compete with the big boys, whereas they were providing a service everyone loved within the local community. Have your mini-mayors, have your local councillors running those kinds of services, and you can address that problem, because they can manage those budgets. If you have problems with how you staff them, then you use the city council or the local authority to basically manage the payslips and things like that. It is all doable, and the reason we do not do it is because of control. The people up there want to control everything; they are manage-freaks. Paul Wheeler: You are right about the rich diversity of England, by the way, David. I always get nervous when I cannot see a lamppost, so whatever happens in rural England, I am sure it works well, but it is not my bag. What is the bag is the mission to inform, because I think part of the confusion that people have is generally they do not know what a councillor does. Is he some kind of advice worker? I think there is a massive mission to inform that should be, frankly, done by the LGA, but perhaps other people as well, and political parties, as Nan said, always treat councillors as slightly odd relatives. So, is there a mission to inform and can it be made clear? On this point about who is in charge, politics is a battle and it is a battle between competing interests, sometimes within the same party. It is very interesting that the first council that has now elected a town parish council is Westminster, in Queen s Park, which is the most deprived bit of Westminster. I think there is going to be more of that, partly for the reasons my colleague was giving that local communities run it better and you can take control there. Now, that might add to the confusion about who is in charge, but I think to some extent we probably need a healthy debate about who is in charge and who can run it better, because that is one of the things that I think local government has been quite bad about not advertising how it does things well in comparison with other agencies. So there is a battle ahead. There will be some confusion, but I think to get that right you need articulate and confident representatives who are councillors. I think the point about how the parties do that and how the council supports them is a really important one, because they do exist and they exist in bigger numbers than people think. Q285 David Heyes: Nan Sloane, I think your centre is particularly focused on the lack of role models that would attract women to come forward as candidates. Is that something you can share your experience on? Nan Sloane: There is no doubt that there are very few women at senior levels in local government and fewer women at senior levels in local government than there are nationally, slightly unexpectedly, because you would think that local government would be where women flourish and, in fact, it is not. There are all sorts of reasons for that to do with the roles that women are expected to fulfil in local government not being the roles that lead into leadership roles, as a general rule. The number of women councillors is gradually creeping up, very, very, very gradually, but because they tend not to be seen as the people who lead, they therefore do not get on the local news. Their activities tend not to be covered by local papers. Something like, I think, this year just on 13% of council leaders are women, which is very low. Women do tend to want to see other women doing something that it is practicable for women to do, and there is quite a lot of academic work about women and role models that suggests that women do look for role models before they go into activities themselves. But I think there are also a lot of other things at play. There are issues about time and lack of access to childcare. I think there are more women looking after elderly relatives than there are looking after children. That is an area that nobody ever considers. We spend a lot of time talking about childcare, but we do not spend a lot of time talking about who is going to look after an aged mother-in-law who is living in the same house, who is as great a problem in terms of the need for cover. So I think there is an issue about role models, but I

141 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles think it comes further down the list than a whole string of other things. Robert Howard: There is a contradiction here, because if you are involved at a community level anywhere, I lay odds that the majority of people involved are going to be women. Certainly in my community the people keeping it going in terms of the community organisations are women, and they are not just providing the tea. They are chairing the meetings, they are looking after the finance, they are running services, and certainly men like me are the exception, quite frankly, when it comes to community activity. So, in that respect, these are the people who ought to come forward. I can tell you, from conversations that I have had, one of the reasons they don t come forward is that they realise they can achieve more being active in their local community than they can sitting on the backbench. Certainly one woman who I would have voted for would have stood as an independent. The reason she did not stand was because the cost of a minimal campaign over the two years before the election was probably going to be a couple of thousand quid for her in terms of producing the basic material, and then what would she get? She would basically get a life on the backbenches because she would be isolated by the majority party. She would have made an exceptional councillor. She would have lots of interesting things to say, but she was not part of a group and that is where the single member ward smaller has a lot of advantages. I bet in that situation a lot more women would come forward, because they would see that they could really do something. Inner city Lenton would not be the thriving community it somehow remains without women doing things. So they are there doing it already and that is the confidence that you should build on. Nan Sloane: It is perhaps a mistake to assume that, because women choose one form of activity, they should automatically be funnelled towards another. Politics and community work are not the same thing, however much we would all like them to be. They are not and, for a great many women, one of the key issues is time. If what you are doing is in your own community and on your doorstep, there is much more time in which to do it than if you have to get in your car and travel 60 miles to a council meeting, sit there for three hours and then travel back again. There is direct correlation between the representation of women and the distance they have to travel to do the representing, so women are far more likely to be on town and parish councils than they are to be on county councils, and that is true across the country. So I think it is true that there are lots of people, both men and women, in communities who would make very good councillors, but that does not necessarily translate through, and I do not think we should be expecting it to. Q286 David Heyes: Can I just put one last point to each of the panel members? 88% of councillors say that a desire to serve their community was their reason for coming forward. I find that a very convincing figure; I am surprised it is not even higher than that. The reality is that to do that you need to get your hands on the levers of power. That is what that entails, and it has been referred to several times already: the impotence of backbench councillors and their inability to make a difference. Is that a disincentive to people becoming councillors? Paul Wheeler: Just before everyone goes on about bringing back the committee system, I just want to say you have to be really careful about this because, in my experience, councillors who want to achieve something generally can, whether they are backbench, opposition, majority party, whatever. They just need the tools to do it. Now, clearly, if they are part of the majority group, that helps, although if you are one of 84 members of the Manchester Labour Party group it might be a bit more difficult because, frankly, you cannot fit in a room these days; there are problems about big majorities. But I do think there is the point about giving people the tools to do their job. Not everyone in a council, thankfully, wants to be the leader or in the cabinet. For the reasons that we have outlined, a lot of people cannot afford to give their jobs up, but that 88% do want to do a good job for their locality, so how do you help them? What is absolutely critical to get across is it is not about the town hall anymore. 80% of public services are delivered by people other than the town hall, but they still need a democratic overview. How do you get local councillors championing people in terms of policing, the environmental improvements that are done by a lot of charities now, and academy schools? The biggest bête noire of all is housing associations, which, in my experience, are completely immune from any democratic reference, because they all think they are businesses, and yet they often provide the worst service of all. So, if you have a good local councillor championing across that whole range, it is a very satisfying job, and the people who do it that way really enjoy being councillors and do not want to go in the cabinet. Nan Sloane: I don t think the prospect of being on the backbenches puts people off, for the simple reason that I don t think people know they will be on backbenches, because most people do not know how local government works and many people who stand for election do not know how local government works. It is sad but true. I think most people who have spent any time trying to get people to stand know that very few people, even in political parties, have a clear understanding of what they would be doing were they to be elected. It is a bigger problem that people get there and find themselves, particularly as Paul says, on backbenches in large groups with large majorities, where I think there are some real issues. I would not say go back to the committee system, because I don t think you should go back. You cannot go back to things you have discarded. I agree with Paul about what the ideal is, but I do not think we are achieving the ideal, and there are certainly authorities where the backbench members have very little to do and therefore don t necessarily stand again. I think it is more about losing people after one or two terms than it is about them not standing in the first place. Robert Knowles: I think a lot of that is very true, but again at a district level people come on perhaps with just one interest. A lot of the members are on because

142 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 72 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles of planning, usually to stop it, if we are honest about this, and out of my 57 members because I have four area planning committees for the different parts of the district 50 of the 57 are on. So you cannot say they are always on the backbenches. They do get a say in quite a lot of things and they are allowed to indicate every year what they want to be on, and we usually please everybody. So being a backbencher does not remove all power, and you should not think that. Robert Howard: I am not so sure about the phrase, as your own evidence found, that 88% of councillors say they are there to serve their local community. I think a lot of people, unfortunately, get elected to serve their party, and there is a difference between the two, quite frankly. One of the things that interest me, and it is becoming a growing trend in local government, is the fact that in Nottingham 70% of councillors don t give their home address. They give the contact address as the council house, and in Birmingham certainly the proportion is even higher. It is interesting that in the neighbouring smaller authorities of Greater Nottingham of Rockstone and Rushcliffe, 100% of councillors give their home address. It is the smaller authorities where councillors are still happy and proud to show that they live in that community, whereas everyone wants to be contacted at Loxley House, or a great many do. I think that this is a growing trend within local government. Councillors are distancing themselves from the community because they feel pretty powerless a lot of the time. I am afraid I do disagree: I think most people who get elected know full well what their role is going to be on that council. Robert and I were talking about this outside. It may well be different on a council where you struggle to get people to stand, but in Nottingham we do not have that problem. You have plenty of people, because it is an urban area where people want to be councillors, and I think they stand knowing full well and a lot of people do not stand because they do not want to be condemned to the backbenches. Chair: We need to move on now. Before we go on to the next set of questions, I will just say I am now conscious of the time, so both colleagues asking questions and the witnesses, please be as brief as possible, because we want to get some more subjects in and discussed. Q287 James Morris: Just homing in on this question of the role of the political parties, do you think that the selection procedures and processes that the party machines use are part of the problem here? Despite the enthusiasm of certain councillors or people wanting to be councillors, the party machines narrow down selection criteria. Are they part of the problem? Paul Wheeler: The LGA run a campaign called Be a councillor, which is excellent in many ways and it does look at all the things. Interestingly, all parties run something that is very similar, having looked at it. I am only allowed to be a member of one party, but I have checked with my colleagues and it is very much a process, first of all, of winnowing down. There is a great suspicion that people who want to be councillors are just activists, so there is that initial suspicion: why do you want to join our club when no one else does? Several parties have advertised for councillors, and again the old guard in whatever party was absolutely horrified about this idea of advertising for new councillors, but loads of people came forward and it was really interesting. I did an event at the LGA on Saturday and there were over 100 women who want to be Labour councillors in London, most of whom have just recently joined the party. Now, coming back to your point, that may be stopped by a variety of forces, but that number of people expressing an interest is quite good. Now, my point is it depends how professionally it is run. If there is some professionalism as opposed to vested interest, you do get good people in. Q288 James Morris: Just on that point, I think, Nan, you made some remarks in your submissions about how can we put it the still rather antediluvian attitude of the political parties towards women. Is that something that you can justify, and how do you think it needs to change? Paul Wheeler: Not on the basis of Saturday. Q289 James Morris: No, no, but in the process by which the enthusiasm then gets drained away by the political process. Nan Sloane: I don t think there is a shortage of women who would be interested in standing. It is not, I think, national and certainly not across the board it varies from place to place but there are certainly local parties of all descriptions who, as Paul says, think, It s our club and we don t want it changing. But there is also this perception that the electorate is very conservative, and that the electorate has problems voting for women. So you will often hear people say to you, Well, we re all in favour of having more women in public life. We re all in favour of having women candidates, but you have to understand that people here won t vote for women. Now, there is no evidence that the electorate has a problem voting for women, but there is evidence that political parties on the ground have a problem fielding women candidates. I think that is less than it used to be, and it is also a function of the fact that the average age of people in political parties is higher than that of the electorate, and that the membership of political parties is itself less diverse than the electorate. Q290 James Morris: Just two quick questions for Paul, because I think you talked about wanting to establish a local democracy foundation to, I presume, promote the idea of the role of councillors. How do you think that is going to help? I think you also talked about the need for political parties to work much closer with the community voluntary sector to broaden the pool of candidates. Paul Wheeler: I appreciate what the Chairman says about being brief, so I will be brief. When you look at the Hansard Society here, it is absolutely fantastic about promoting parliamentary democracy, debates and stuff, and people get that. There is no equivalent in the local government world to promote local politics and the fact that you can make a difference. Obviously, we have been quoting a lot of examples of where you cannot make a difference. There are lots of

143 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles people out there who have changed their lives and their communities lives by being a councillor, but we never get a chance to say that. So that mission to inform is really important. In relation to the second thing, there is a tradition in the Labour Party that trade unions will sponsor and encourage their members to be both MPs and councillors; it goes back 100 years. My take is: why can t we have that in a wider sense? This point about being nervous about coming forward is true, but what if your local church or your residents association said, We re going to work with our residents and give them some of the skills to be councillors. Hopefully, a council could do that. We have just had Local Democracy Week and several councils are doing precisely that. I did an event in Oldham and there were something like 70 young people there who were saying, What s this business about being a councillor? So it can be done. Q291 James Morris: Just as a final question, isn t there an important distinction, though, between people wanting to get engaged in a community role that they are used to and that then becoming a directly political role? Can that sometimes be problematic because people have the wrong expectations about what they are being expected to do? Paul Wheeler: Well, obviously people won t join a party they don t believe in, but we are right to say that the vast majority of councillors are members of political parties and they will continue to be until you change the electoral system. But what you are saying to people is, It s a light touch thing, in the sense of being a member of a party. You don t have to sign up to anything, but go along and find out. If you agree with their values, go and see if you could be a councillor for them. Certainly for young people under 25, I think they are minded to do that. They won t go to ridiculous branch meetings and all the stuff that the parties insist they do, but they do want to represent their communities and you have to find a way of channelling that energy. I have seen several people who have become young councillors and really enjoyed it, but not in a way that kills them by spending hours doing silly things in a room with four other people, all of whom hate each other. Chair: I thought going to branch meetings was a trial to see if you could survive council meetings. Heather Wheeler: We are learning so much about what you guys get up to. Paul Wheeler: I think yours is not dissimilar, by the way. Q292 Bob Blackman: The average councillor at the moment is white, male and aged 60. Nan, you are obviously championing the cause of women and encouraging women to stand for election, but there are other views on this. Some people have suggested to us in the discussions we have had that if you have all-women shortlists, for example, it is an insult to women and says they cannot get through on their own merits; others have said that if you had all-bme shortlists, it would be an insult to those communities. Do you have a view on what should be done? Nan Sloane: I do. I think women are different from any other group because women are the majority 52% of the population is female and I certainly think that positive action, whether it is in the form of allwomen shortlists or in one of the many other forms that exist, is the single most effective mechanism that has been found in this or any other country for changing the composition of any body. What is insulting to women is the fact that they cannot get through on merit, not the fact that the playing field is on quite a steep slope and needs levelling up. Where I would like to be is in the position where we do not need to look at artificial mechanisms to make our public bodies more diverse. But in the absence of that diversity arising naturally, we either have to decide that it does not matter, which is fine if we decide that, then we should stop saying the opposite or, if we decide that it does matter, we have to look seriously at the mechanisms that we know work to achieve it. We know it is not enough simply to wish that it were so and encourage people and say to women the sorts of things I hear said all the time: There, there, dear. We know you aren t very confident, but we ll give you a lot of help and support and you can do it. That is basically saying there is something wrong with women, when in fact women are well able to be councillors and well able to lead councils. Q293 Bob Blackman: So how would you have this implemented? The authority that covers my area, for example, has almost a majority of women as councillors, so presumably we are exceptional. Nan Sloane: You are indeed, yes. Bob Blackman: But if you have a position whereby there were no female councillors, would you have to have a system of all-women shortlists until such time as you broke the mould? Nan Sloane: In an ideal world, personally, I would go for what many countries go for, which is legally binding requirements for parties to field a given percentage of candidates of both sexes. So in France, it is 50%. Q294 Bob Blackman: Would you do that for different ethnic minorities as well, because in many areas they are severely under-represented? Nan Sloane: They are indeed, but I think that you cannot take a tool that has been developed to deal with the problem of the under-representation of a majority and apply it in the same format to a minority. Q295 Bob Blackman: Well, there are parts of London, for example, which are now ethnic majorities, yet the councils will be overwhelmingly white in their composition, so the same thing applies. Nan Sloane: Yes, and I think that we do need mechanisms to deal with that, but I do not think that a binding mechanism across the country would be able to address it in the same way because, as you rightly say, the position in parts of London is very different from what the position might be in rural Cornwall, for instance. The problem there is that people have found a mechanism that works and therefore want to transfer it wholesale on to different

144 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 74 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles situations, and I think we need to look at those situations on their own merits. Q296 Bob Blackman: Paul, you suggested another tier of neighbourhood councils to encourage people to come forward, presumably as apprentice councillors. Paul Wheeler: Well, it already exists, to be fair. Most of the country has town and parish councils; it is just that the urban areas do not. Q297 Bob Blackman: So do you think urban areas should have parish councils or the equivalent? Paul Wheeler: I do, probably over the dead bodies of most elected councillors at the moment, for the reasons that we have stated. The fact is that Westminster has started. I think could be a really good training ground, but it could also be something in itself. Brent and all these others could really do with a much more local representative structure and people could dip in. This is not a full-time job. It is nothing like a full-time job. It is working with your neighbours, but having some revenue, which is the important bit, and some powers. That could revolutionise local politics, but you would have to do it over what are very, very vested interests at the moment. Q298 Bob Blackman: I am coming to you, Robert, about something else. Your view is that every councillor should have a paid assistant. Would you trade this off? It is not going to be a magical answer. Instead of having multi-member wards, would you have just one member per ward but they can have a paid assistant to go with them? Robert Howard: Yes. I like the idea of single member wards, but to come back to the urban parish, as someone who has been actively involved in a partnership forum within a ward, I think that is the way forward. It does all of the things that have been suggested in terms of providing people with opportunities to be apprentices and what have you, and it gives that councillor a root in the community. They would spend a lot more time working in their community. They could have a base in the local community centre and it would be about far more than being a parish councillor. I know how difficult it is. The namesake here, Dick Knowles, was leader of Birmingham City Council for many years. He was the man who, in 1972, converted me to the idea of neighbourhood councils, and he used to say, Bob, they have to have more power than parish councils, and it took him until the year 2000 to get the New Frankley Parish Council in Birmingham created. Even now they are still talking about wanting to get more power. He was actively involved in the Association for Neighbourhood Democracy, and I supported that idea then and I support it now. It is about them being able to run all the services that appertain to their area, as appear in the legislation. So that it is read into the record, I am just going to give you the thing. It is Part 15, paragraph 185 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act That basically gives the power to local councillors to run all the services that appertain to their ward. Imagine doing that to councillors, giving them far more than you would get with an urban parish council. They would need someone to run it. I think of all the fantastic committee clerks that I worked with in my time, who were wonderful non-party services. So basically, if the councillor for that area changed, the assistant would remain in post. They would still continue the support. All their knowledge would pass on to the councillor who followed them. Q299 Bob Blackman: Paid by the council and appointed by the council, not by the councillor. Robert Howard: Yes. In fact, the person might be appointed, first of all, by the councillor. I trust councillors to make non-partisan appointments. They don t want everyone they appoint to the job to have the same view. You appoint the best person for the job, and I believe most councillors are more than capable of doing that. Q300 Bob Blackman: Moving on. Robert, do you have a view that your councillors should have a paid official to answer all their s and deal with their correspondence? Robert Knowles: Certainly cabinet members probably should, because it is becoming a position where it is virtually impossible to keep on top of it. Some of the other members probably would not want it, to be quite honest, because they do not put in that level of commitment and probably would feel that was pushing them to do so. Just going back briefly, I am sitting here very jealously, because I hear about all these selections. We run round a few days before the election trying to fill the gaps, and not only my party, because at the last election, out of 57, 19 were returned unopposed, including an 18-year-old woman in the no-hope seat for us, but unopposed. So I am quite jealous of all these selection committees and hard times. Q301 Bob Blackman: Clearly you are not paying enough. The final word, Nan: if councillors had assistants in the way that has been described, would that have an effect on women standing, because then you would have a position, presumably, that would take away some of those barriers? Responsibility for childcare, etc., we know can be a barrier. Nan Sloane: I assume you are not appointing the assistant to go and pick the children up at 3 o clock or 5 o clock or deal with the days off sick and all the rest of it. Bob Blackman: No, but to deal with the council work, etc. Nan Sloane: Of course it would help. It is bound to help, because it is bound to take some of the pressure off. But I think that the same issues that apply to women at work would still apply. If you were the director of a company and you had a PA and you had childcare responsibilities, you still have the childcare responsibilities or other domestic responsibilities and you still need coping mechanisms for dealing with that, and you would as a councillor with an assistant.

145 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles Of course it is going to help because you are then less likely to be doing your 100 s at one o clock in the morning, which is what people tend to do, but I don t think that is the solution. It is right that any cabinet member is clearly going to need proper administrative help. I am not sure that it helps us resolve the problem of what councillors are for, if you see what I mean. I think it is an administrative assistance, but it does not necessarily get us any further in deciding what the job really is and what we want people to do. I am more attracted, I have to say, by the idea of different levels of getting people in and of developing people s understanding and developing different strategies for dealing with the challenges than simply saying, Let s employ some more people, if only because the person who was employed and who was there permanently when the councillor changed would be the person with the power in the community. Q302 Chair: Just very briefly, finally, should there be a training provision for councillors? Should they have training before they become councillors, as candidates? On the issue of performance measures, should it be a requirement for all councillors to have their performance measured? Who should do the training and performance measures? Paul Wheeler: I will be very brief. Councillors already get trained if they want to go on planning and everything else; that is a statutory requirement and they do that very well. If you are asking me who should do the training, it is the political parties. If they represent a political party, they should do more. I don t know if the Lib Dem guy is here, but with the exception of the Liberal Democrats the political parties are dreadful. They just take councillors money and give them nothing in return, so the LGA have filled the gap, and I will leave this with you; these are some of the programmes that the LGA do. These are for talented councillors. They normally do one a year. But I do think the parties have to completely change their approach, because these are the frontlines of politics and I think the councillors have to take them seriously. The councils should do more too, and the LGA and the Leadership Academy and things like that are fine, because one of the ways to sell this to young people is: This is part of your career development. Where else at the age of 22, 23 are you going to be running a big organisation, which is potentially possible? Where are you going to get that experience? If you sell that right, employers are interested in that. So I think training works because, first of all, it is needed and the parties should do it. It is also needed because that is the way you can attract people, and it is also a way of saying to young people, particularly at the moment when there are very few jobs available with that level of experience, Come and do it for four or five years and see what you think. If you like it, carry on. If not, we will be able to transfer it for you. But we are millions of years away from that, because everyone else thinks councillors are amateurs, and the political parties have to start to change their approach. Nan Sloane: I agree with him. Robert Howard: I think councils ought to pay for the training of anyone who is interested. In Nottingham, councillors give 10% of their allowances towards the party election pot for campaigning. I do not see why they could not give 2% of their attendance allowances to help pay for expenses to run training. It should be open to anyone. It should not be a condition of being a candidate. That is anti-democratic. But, as I say, the important thing is that you open it up to anyone, because it is not just political parties. We want local government to be there for anyone who wants to stand, and my argument is: smaller wards, one member, give independents more chance of winning. Robert Knowles: I agree with Paul regarding the political parties. It stops the day that you are elected, and I think that is poor, but certainly as a Council I will not allow people to sit on statutory committees, such as planning and licensing, unless they have attended the training. The Council provides the training. It provides standard training. In fact, it provides a complete package of training, so that it does not matter which party you have come from; you get the same training to perform your duty according to the law. Chair: Thank you all very much indeed for coming here this afternoon. Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Councillor Alycia James, Lancaster City Council, Councillor Rowan Draper, Stafford Borough Council, Councillor Simon Killane, Wiltshire Council, and Councillor Marianne Overton, Lincolnshire County Council and North Kesteven District Council, gave evidence. Q303 Chair: Good afternoon and welcome to the second part of our evidence session this afternoon. As I said to the first witnesses, if something has been said that you agree with, you can just say you agree with it; you do not have to repeat it at the same length. We obviously have a certain amount of time and we need to get many questions in and subjects covered. Just to begin with, perhaps each of you could say what motivated you to stand for election as a councillor. Has it lived up to what you thought it was going to be? Have your expectations been met? While Councillor Overton is answering that point, perhaps you could also address the issue about whether independent councillors really have the same motivations as those who represent political parties. Just before you begin, for the record could you say who you are and the organisation you represent? Simon Killane: I am Simon Killane and I am the Wiltshire unitary councillor for Malmesbury. I am also a Malmesbury town councillor. Chair: Please answer the question, and then we will go on down the line. Simon Killane: I had no idea, when I became a councillor, what a councillor s job involved

146 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 76 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton absolutely no idea. I call myself an accidental councillor. What was the other part of your question? Q304 Chair: Did it live up to expectations? But you didn t have any expectations, so it wouldn t. Simon Killane: Because we converted from district and county to unitary, I have not been in any political party, so I have a very non-political background. I joined the Liberal Democrats a short period before I was made a councillor. I was a community activist, so I am totally community, very non-political, and so when I became a councillor I did it probably from a do-gooder s point of view. I thought it would give me more opportunity, more power, to deal with things in my community, but I had absolutely no idea what it entailed and I think a lot of people who went into the unitary who were existing councillors did not really know what a unitary councillor s role would entail. Alycia James: My name is Alycia James. I am from Lancaster City Council. My motivation was partly because one of my friends, who is a councillor in Cambridgeshire, inspired me, to an extent, and also I looked at the community and thought perhaps I could do better than the previous councillor. She had stopped going to meetings and things like that, and I thought, They are not being represented; perhaps I can do that job and do it better. As to whether it has lived up to my expectations, I think in ways it has exceeded and in other ways it has fallen behind what I had hoped. Being in opposition, I suppose it does not help at times and it can be very, very frustrating, but if you want to get something done, I think if you are determined enough you can do it. Rowan Draper: I am Rowan Draper and I am from Stafford Borough Council. The reason why I decided to stand I think was very much influenced by my experience as a student union executive officer at university. It instilled the values of the public service I am doing now as a councillor. It gave me hands-on experience with an organisation delivering service and trying to improve the experiences of members of that organisation. I completely agree with everything Alycia said about how it has lived up to expectations and the highs and lows and the rest of it. Marianne Overton: Thank you. Marianne Overton; I sit on Lincolnshire County Council and North Kesteven District Council as an independent councillor, and I am leader of the opposition on the County Council. I stood because our community was cross. We felt that we were not being heard. We wanted a bypass around one of the villages, not my own, because the thundering traffic was severely impacting on the lives of those individuals who lived there. We felt that we could not seem to get anywhere, and eventually we realised that our councillor was not supporting us. When we challenged him, he said it was because he was a party member and the only objector was the chairman of the Conservative Party, so we were very unhappy about that. He said, Well, anyway, nobody stood against me last time, so I m all you ve got. So we said, Well, that s the last time nobody stands against you. So we did take a seat and we got our bypass eventually, so it was an example to me of how the public can work together to genuinely make a difference. Also, it made me realise that some councillors are not there specifically to represent, or they do not see that they are there to specifically represent, the people in their area. So we ran a campaign and it really gave me a good lesson. Whether it is what I expected, I think largely yes. I think the skills of analysing information and being able to cope with quite large amounts of data and come to not necessarily the same conclusion that has been handed to you on a plate is very important, as I found through the whole process. But I think what I find even now, after some years, still quite shocking is the nastiness of tribalistic party politics that can sometimes be applied, which does not necessarily inspire support and interest from the community, either in their representatives or in turning out to vote at the next election. Q305 Heather Wheeler: We have talked a lot today about whether you are leaders in your patch or whether you aspire to be a leader or something like that, perhaps, on a council the leader of a group. But regarding the changes in the localism agenda and the changes to the role of being a councillor, do you think that is change for the better? Can you be leaders in your patch or are you? Is that what you should be? Simon Killane: I did not answer some of the earlier question, which links into this, which is I think the council role and my role as councillor is fantastic. I am a product designer by trade. It is probably the most interesting job I have ever done in my life, and the most difficult job from a support point of view. So it is very difficult to do the job, for very basic reasons, finance and so on, but it is a wonderful job to do. When it comes to localism, in our area we are part of the whole process of neighbourhood planning and we have set up a neighbourhood plan. We are working in a very non-political way. We have a 21-member steering group, which leads in the community from the residents association, chamber of commerce, to schools. It is working fantastically well. The Deputy Leader of Wiltshire Council is Conservative and I am a Liberal. We are all working together, throwing our politics out of the window and working for our community. We have huge support from the community. We use the internet, we use Facebook; we have 740 people in our Facebook group. There are lots of difficult things. There is nastiness and politics at play, but in reality it has been kept well at bay. We are very proud that as a community we are grasping the localism agenda and trying to make a real difference, and what we are saying is we want to decide where and how we have the housing that has been assigned to us through the core strategy. So the Government policy is saying we have to have housing. We are not Nimbys. We are dealing with some very challenging communities and we are going to deliver on this and we are going to make it happen. So, for us, it is extremely exciting and it is all working very well. We are embracing our parish councils and so on, looking at our area as a resource area, getting rid of the tribalistic boundaries of parties and of the parishes,

147 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton coming together and working to do something really fantastic, and it is working really well. Alycia James: I am Deputy Leader of the Conservative Group on the City Council, the second biggest group, and I think leadership in that position is very different to leadership in the community. With localism, I personally think that I should not be at the forefront of every single thing within the community. I should be playing a role more of a facilitator and helping them access the resources rather than driving it all the time and saying, I am going to take charge of the allotments committee, or something. I should empower them to do it and help them along the way. I think that is a better way to take that localism into your community. Rowan Draper: I would agree with what Alycia has just said again, and I would highlight it with an example one of my colleagues gave to me. There was the potential closure of a local public house in her ward, and the story that she told me about how she worked with the community was that, rather than writing a letter to the council and all these various bodies they will look at it and go, Councillor, that s it, if we have 17 or 100 letters and a petition and campaign action, any decision-makers are going to look on that in a very different way. If I may talk about the tribalistic nature of party politics, a lot of my experience came from student union politics. My university was perhaps one of the few that did not allow slights in any way, shape or form. So I think it is very interesting to hear now, having been elected since 2011, the comments from colleagues about how the tribalism can come into play. I think it is really interesting, because I was elected twice for a year period and we spent two years fighting over ideas and policy, and I think that, for me, what a party says to my community, to my members, is what my values are, where broadly I will look at issues and how I will give support. I agree that there are examples of animosity and tribalism in debates and, unfortunately, if you have closed off council chambers and members of the public don t attend, that is what is going to happen, because whilst the cat is away the mice will play. So I think it is really interesting to hear the dynamics, because we have a small independent and one Liberal in the group and, generally, they do not get involved in the party debate, so I just think it is interesting. Marianne Overton: The Localism Bill of course has brought the police and crime commissioners, but you are not referring to that, presumably. Q306 Heather Wheeler: No, no. I want to know about your views. Marianne Overton: As a local leadership role, yes, absolutely. I am not sure how much the Bill has helped, particularly, but we were certainly doing a lot of it already and it is a great opportunity, being a councillor, and we have had tremendous success with drawing the community together to be more cohesive towards goals that they really want and giving them the sense that things are possible. We have just finally completed for one village a new village hall, for example, which cost over a million, and it has been a huge effort in bringing the community to agree and to really work towards the single goal, and it has been enormously successful in that. I think the way in which we have to do that means that we do need to reach out to all different parts of the community so very much. I have just got a business forum going and, in fact, I do not know if you are allowed to take items, but I have brought a newsletter, which covers some of the issues that we are working on. But there are all kinds of ways in which we can bring groups of the community together, discuss issues with them, so that we can look at area we have, look at the aspirations and the problems of the people there, and that is our agenda. So we are working very much towards representing what the people want and working towards those goals. Q307 Heather Wheeler: I will finish off with a quick jog through, but perhaps on this occasion, Councillor Killane, I will come to you last. Alycia, do you think there are differences between two-tier authorities and being a county councillor or a district or borough councillor? Alycia James: I am a city councillor at the moment, which is a borough councillor in our area, and I am, hopefully, running for county in May and there are big differences between the two. I also have parish councils within mine, which I go to quite a lot. The problem is the public do not know the difference between them anyway, so I get sent issues that are parish council and county council issues. The key, to an extent, is being able to work together with your county councillors, of whatever party. I cannot compare it necessarily to a unitary, because I do not have that experience, but they are two very, very different roles that do overlap. Rowan Draper: They are different and I agree that a lot of the electorate don t know the difference. If I could highlight anything, it would be the necessity for citizenship education, not only in schools, but perhaps county councils and borough councils should be doing that as part of their offer to residents. The reality, for me, is that in majority of instances I come across on the doorstep, they do not know where the services are going; they do not know who provides their bins and who provides their schools. If that is one example, then how can you determine the political ideology and what you support as a person? Do you believe in small state? Do you believe in social justice? If we have that sort of political illiteracy within districts, cities and the country, where is the direction going? Marianne Overton: Community literacy is an interesting point; one of the ways of dealing with that is to have very good communication with your electorate. I do a monthly newsletter, for example, and those kinds of things. It does mean, I hope, that people in my area have some idea about what being a councillor involves; what kind of issues we work together with the community on, what kinds of successes we have had and what we are still working on. I hope that that is one way of, if you like, educating and involving. But with the two tiers, clearly the efficiency would be better if you combined them. We have worked very hard on combining back

148 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 78 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton office services so that it is straightforward and we can get those efficiencies. However, I think the most important thing is that people have good representation and a good connection with their councillor. That is one of the difficulties of giving councillors a very big area. I have 10,500 people in my area, but I also have six district councillors; it is about working together. If you reduce the number of councillors by reducing the councils and so on, it is a big job if you only have one person in that area. When you think all those people could ring you on a Sunday night and tell you their bin has not been emptied or something, it would be difficult. Q308 Heather Wheeler: Obviously, you joined the council after the change to unitary. Simon Killane: Yes. I will explain it for unitaries and I know a lot about districts and counties; I will give you a little synopsis of the good and bad. We have a unitary covering a population of 500,000 people and a huge geographic area rural, town, military; the whole diverse range of different populations. In many ways, our unitary is really a mini-government and people are very distant from it. It is in Trowbridge which, in some cases, might be 50 or 60 miles away from where people live. There is a real problem with linking what goes on locally with the unitary. People do not really see it. There is no visual representation. It is not like Parliament where you see people in Westminster. That is number one. Number two, we had 260 councillors; we now have 98. There is a democracy issue. When you shrink down the number of councillors and they are on pretty much the same sort of process financially and so on, but that person has taken on the role of two districts and a county in their area and a population of 5,000, how do you make sure they can possibly do it? I believe no thought has gone into that. The other issue is the parish and town councils feeling disenfranchised, because they may now have a role of hanging baskets and a couple of parks, but they do not see that they have a role when it comes to being in power to do things. Our council is addressing that. They are bringing in these things called area boards and they are trying to empower 16 regional area boards to do various tasks and delegate powers. Not enough has been done. The budgets are tiny: 50,000 or something like that. The area boards also tend to often be in competition with the town and parish councils and the town and parish councillors do not see a role. It is like they have been jettisoned in a dinghy and told, Off you go; there is no role for you anymore. It is about trying to bring them in and change what they are doing. Also, the parish councils see themselves as very legislative, but they have really no legislative powers. People look at the mayor of the town and they look at the town council and they see them as the ones making all the decisions when they are not; the unitary councillor is really the one in the driving seat. Backbench or no backbench, he or she is the guy linking in to the unitary and helping to drive the process of trying to get services and so on. There is a real democratic issue with unitaries. I think a unitary in itself is a far better idea than the tiered system, but you have to have a root and branch. You have to make sure that you can delegate the power down from the unitary, like in a military situation where each level understands what their role is and is empowered to do what they need to do. The danger with a cabinet system is that you will end up with 10 cabinet ministers with a budget of nearly 1 billion for which maybe three or four of the cabinet positions are the important ones, running a whole county and no one knowing who they are. There is a whole load of issues with the democracy of the process, but also, finally, I would say that the unitary council s role is much greater than the district or the county. If I was a district councillor, I would have had two other people and I would have travelled five or 10 miles to a local district council meeting in the evening. All of the council meetings at Wiltshire Council are held during the day, so if I want to go to a meeting I have to give up a day s pay. My role as a unitary councillor is so demanding that I take a day unpaid off my job. For me, as a working person with three young children, a mortgage and a house, it is a completely unfriendly place for me to be. Our kind are not welcome there at all. That is one of the reasons why women and others do not go in there. They don t go in there because of the tribal politics; because of the egotistical or egomaniacal attitude that comes out; and because of the constant PR from the political parties that smashes and bashes the council. When the council does something good, the opposition goes in and trashes it. People in the street do not really understand it; they just look at the whole organisation as being rubbish. When it comes to finances, really, in my council, if you are rich, if you are retired, if you have time on your hands and if you are a party political maniac, you are in. If you are 99% of the rest of the population, who provide all the money and that taxes and work, forget about it. Do not go in there, unless you are crazy, which I am often told I am. Now, with new media and all these things that I am interested in, you will find councillors have to be much more in contact. I do not hide from the electorate and so I am answering questions, doing things and getting involved. Taking on something like neighbourhood planning, which is a huge, momentous task and chairing an organisation is something that is really demanding on your time. I spend 60 hours a week between my day job and my council job. I have three young children. I go home in the evening, take an hour off, go straight up to my PC and go to evening meetings. I will go to meetings in parish councils and so on. I will not ramble on, but the interesting thing is the money element. It has nothing to do with money. It is to do with a pivotal point at which, no matter what you do, you need to have a basic resource to do your job. If you are in a company earning a reasonably decent salary and you can take time off, or if you are self-employed, it is fine, but there comes a time in your job when you say, I need to go to meetings. I need to go to a meeting on Monday, on Wednesday and on Friday. No employer will allow you to do that. I nearly lost my job because of it. I had to

149 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton challenge my employer and say, No, I want to do this and I will go through the legal system to challenge you, and they relented, but when they relented I knew my career at my company was finished and my career as a product designer was gone. There is a whole pile of issues here about the support that councillors get, which are not being addressed in any way. I find it a fantastic, interesting role and I am very successful at it. I will not ramble on any more. Q309 David Heyes: I was going to ask you about the opportunities you have to influence the direction of policies, but I think you have all covered that to some extent in the answers you have given already. I would like you to help me understand how your individual authorities have devolved responsibilities down to local committees or to individual councillors and how much control that gives over local budgets. Marianne Overton: The County Council has given a budget to every councillor, which they can spend on good works within their communities, perhaps to trigger other investment as well. It is helpful. Q310 David Heyes: How much is that? Marianne Overton: It is 2,000 each of two years. It came from a councillors allowance that we declined. We declined an allowance and put that money in a pot, which was then shared out equally among all councillors, because it already had been budgeted. Now we give that to community organisations. That works well. It is quite limited. I think the best way that we can influence, as frontline councillors, is by putting together carefully-researched arguments that are well-supported by the community. In that way, it is quite hard to resist. Getting in very early in the process is also important. It is no good waiting until it comes to a vote. You have got to have done all the work beforehand. Perhaps that is similar to your work. It is a question of timing and process, which we can manage, and making sure that you are well-prepared and well-researched. Q311 David Heyes: It seems to me that the approach you have just described might be easier for an independent councillor to achieve than one who is part of the party system. Marianne Overton: It does come from looking at your area and what is needed for your area and then putting together the policies that would be needed for the council to have in order to best support the aspirations and the needs of the people in your area. So yes, I guess, from that process, there is not another agenda. Alycia James: I agree with a lot of what Marianne has just said. If you go in with a good, well-researched argument and evidence to show that the policy you are pushing is the right one for your community, then it does make all the difference. I sometimes go in and wave papers and I think some of them in control probably get a little bit scared by that, because, yes, I have evidence to show that this is an argument that is there for a reason; I am not just standing up to say things. Maybe mine is a strange council as it is not as political most of the time as it potentially could be. It is a very strange council. It is 24 Labour, eight Green, 15 Conservatives, 10 Morecambe Bay independents, two free independents and an independent independent, so it is quite a complicated one. However, if you do put forward a good argument, then even if, say, the Labour Party does not agree with you, you have a good chance with the rest of them; or if the Morecambe Bay independents do not agree with you, sometimes the Labour Party agrees with you. It does work if you have got a good argument, even in opposition. Q312 David Heyes: It is force of personality and putting a good argument together. Is that your experience? Simon Killane: For me, the local issues and the local stuff and even now with the national stuff and the planning and so on, it is very easy. I am in a Conservative-dominated rural area; I am the only Liberal councillor in that area. Locally, we have all managed to pull together and do some wonderful, fantastic things. With the council itself, as a backbencher, I cannot get to County Hall in Trowbridge because if I go there I lose my income. I have to use all my holiday entitlement for my job. I use it carefully; I go to certain meetings that I can go to and I will go to night meetings in the evening. I am disenfranchised. I am disenfranchised from trying to go for the leadership of the opposition, because my wife does not have a big income to support me and I do not have loads of money. When it comes to county, I am totally disenfranchised. Locally, I can get loads of things done and we can embrace some of these national policies and the Council is really willing to come in and say, We will help you and we will support you to do it, and I have had no problems at all with it. Q313 David Heyes: Rowan, have you got your hands on the levers of power? Rowan Draper: I would not say that I have. Unfortunately, we had a situation where our council closed two bowling greens and a tennis court within our area as part of the budget process. When we came to the reports, it was all in hidden in detail. It should have been clearer. I said this to our chief officers: You come to us with proposals that you are going to do this for the play park, you are going to do this for this area, but when it comes to cutting services in the budget, it was all done under the name of efficiencies we are just going to restructure. The only detail was a drop from about 60,000 to 30,000. You are talking about a 1 million budget and firsttime councillors who have not had sufficient training to be able to read that balance sheet and be able to understand the organisation well enough to be able to go to the officers and say, Hold on, that is a massive drop. Why has that dropped? We have had apologies in private since because of this, but that still does not change the fact that we were not involved in a major decision about our area. I would say that, generally speaking, in other areas the communication between the officers and the councillors at least my ward colleagues is generally okay, but I do not think that

150 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 80 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton anything new has come through the localism agenda. I do not think there is anything that we have had since 2011 that would have changed it. Q314 Heather Wheeler: I am fascinated. You are all lovely young people and there seems to be this clamouring for reducing the voting age down to 16, but we still have this trend of maybe the majority of councillors being 60 and white. Do you think doing something unbelievably dramatic would be a good idea with councils, or is it about experience and not just about enthusiasm? I am going to come to you last, because you like saying what you like saying and we can read it in your face. Marianne, what do you think? Marianne Overton: About increasing diversity of councillors? Heather Wheeler: Yes. Marianne Overton: It is critical. We must have diversity, because if we don t then we are not properly in connection with those parts of the community that may have a different perspective, whether it is age or any other way you wish to divide the groups. It is really important that we have representative councils. How does one do that? Whether to go for the nudge or the shove was the way of looking at it. We do nudge. We try very hard in all the different processes that we can think of and it might be that one, in the end, perhaps has to come to a process of top-up places. I am not a party, so I cannot do the group selection, but top-up places would be interesting. We had this with the regional government for the different political groups. Half of the places were by appointment from councils and then, to make up the balance, there were top-up places. That is quite an interesting way of doing it. It would be one way of getting a more diverse representation. It is certainly important to have quality, but there is no reason why you should not have quality in a diverse group of councillors. Rowan Draper: I recently read a blog by Lord Adonis, who wrote about the desire for 16-year-olds to be able to stand. I think that is perhaps a step too far, but then I think votes at 16 is a step too far. While I do support the work that the British Youth Council, the UK Youth Parliament and the Votes at 16 campaign have done, the problem is that we are not asking the right question when it comes to that. We should be asking: is 16 the right age to be a member of adult society? Are they responsible enough to run up a huge credit card bill and then have to pay it off? As I understand it, the age of consent for marriage is still 16 with parents permission. There are lots of others, and I have debated it a number of times with young people through social media and in person and, generally speaking, the debate about is about entitlement. It is, we can drive a car at 17, we can have children, with our MP, at 16 if they so chose. I think that is the wrong place to start the argument. The debate should be about the fact society recognises you at 18 as a full adult, responsible for yourself, and that is the focus that I would give. However, I think that there is a great opportunity for young mayors and youth councils and I don t think it is widely enough spread throughout the country, in the sense that my unitary authority has a youth action council and I don t know how much devolved power they have to do anything. Our borough council does not have a devolved administration or devolved power for a youth council, but young mayors could do it. Perhaps more support or status could be given to a member of the Youth Parliament, in that sense, but then, unfortunately, I think many people would worry that it would become another exercise or an extension of party political stuff. While I agree that they should have politics, I don t know whether party politics is right for under-16s, in that sense, because it can be tribal and vicious, here, in my council and in other councils. Perhaps they should keep their values of school education where, if you call somebody a bad name, you are told off for it; if you have done wrong, you get sorted out. Whereas I don t think that is as clear in the adult world of politics. Alycia James: I agree with what Rowan said earlier about educating our young people, because they do not really know what a councillor does. You cannot get them involved to become a councillor if they have no idea or no interest in it. We have just had another Local Democracy Day and we had something called political speed dating, where a load of young people could come in and ask us all sorts of questions. There were only two questions off-limits; those were what political party and what age. They could ask anything. I thought that was a really good idea. However, we are still missing a big chunk within our council, not necessarily of young people; it is those aged 21 through to 45. I must admit I am in that group. I am one of the few. I cannot have a full-time job and do what I do. I have two part-time jobs, which are paid quite poorly, in all honesty, so I can play a full role in council. There are other members who have full-time jobs and can only go to the odd meeting. At our council we have full council meetings at two o clock in the afternoon on a Wednesday. How can you get people with full-time jobs to say to their employers, I need Wednesday afternoon off to go to another council meeting. By the way, I also need Tuesday afternoon? This is a district. We are getting 3,300 a year. That is not going to pay for your time off. It puts a lot of people off. That is going to prevent us getting a properly representative council. I don t think it takes anything drastic to fix that. I think it takes a bit of common sense; perhaps have council meetings in the evenings, after work. Simon Killane: The problem with council meetings in the evenings is, if you have young children, like me, do you give up your family life with your young children? When it comes to diversity, one of the things I think you need to have is a broad spectrum of different age groups. You want to have the older people in their 60s, 70s or whatever who have the experience, as long as they are able, who can pass that on to the younger members and can use their wisdom and their knowledge to help. You want younger people, but bear in mind young people who come into the system probably need a bit of experience in life first. I would not recommend it, but I would not say no; we should try to encourage them. I don t think 16 is at the hub

151 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton of the real problem. The real problem, as you suggest, is it is a financial process. I am Irish; you can hear my accent. I am from Ireland. I am in the oldest borough in England, Malmesbury, that of the first King of England, King Athelstan. I won by a landslide in the elections. How did that happen? It is not about ethnicity, race or anything like that. People identify and care about the person who leads them. They want trustworthy, honest politicians. They want people who want to do things. It is about economics. It is as simple and as plain as that. The squeezed middle, the people who have to go out to work, raise income and raise families, often have the best vested interest to be in politics, because they care about healthcare, they care about their children s education and they have and are working in jobs that require skills and so on. I come from the private sector. I have always been in the private sector as a product private designer. Engineering and design are amazingly useful to me as a politician. It is trying to get the diversity of people in there that is the key thing. It is an economic process that is stopping our kind from being in there. It has nothing to do with anything else. It is very basic and very simple. Do something that I have not heard any politician say they will do: go out, get SurveyMonkey there are all sorts of great things on the web and ask the women and the men of this country, What is it that is stopping you from going into politics? Don t ask politicians, and sit around in little party groups and conferences and say, What do we think about ourselves? We are weirdoes. We are in this system because we are extreme and crazy; we shouldn t be here. You and I shouldn t be here, because this system doesn t welcome us. Ask the ordinary people in the street, What would encourage you to get involved and become a local politician? What is it you like? What is it you don t like? Here is the benefit. Here is the bonus. Here is the allowance you get, and then look at your study and from that study, with a statistician and some analysis and expertise in hand, come up with some suggestions. They would be basic, like, We have got to pay some money to these people so they can live, so they can pay their mortgages and so they can get into the system. Very basic stuff. Q315 Chair: Let me come to Marianne. Political parties are responsible for selecting candidates where we have got party candidates and councillors, but is there any more that can be done to get more people to stand as independents? Marianne Overton: Very much so. One way is to make sure that people do understand what a councillor can do and what difference they can make. If there are some good examples, they should be publicised in the press or in newsletters or on Facebook; anywhere. That can partly be done through getting the public involved in a campaign, perhaps to achieve something and then giving feedback. That does encourage people, because they want to see that they can do something useful. That is why people go into local politics: they can make a difference for themselves, their family and their communities. If there are barriers like unfair press coverage, which we sometimes see, particularly during election time, that does make it very difficult. Many of the independents have networks to try to encourage others to come forward, and even to do some training prior to standing as well, if they would like. It is really just about making sure that there is an open door and trying to provide a level playing field. I also put articles in the press inviting people to come forward: Come and be a councillor. I think it is a great thing to do. If I look back on my life and you think, What have I done that is worthwhile? this will be the thing for me. One of them, I should say. Q316 Chair: Looking at some of the practicalities of what is preventing people from serving as councillors or, indeed, continuing on, which I think is a big problem, Rowan, you suggested that allowances should be standardised. Presumably, that is standardised across the country and across similar types of authorities. What is your basis for that point? Rowan Draper: When you start work, you have a minimum wage; you know what you are expected to earn and, if there are any issues, you can challenge your employer, go to a trade union, if you are a member, or the Citizens Advice Bureau if you are not. One of the earlier speakers alluded to the fact that the allowance in his authority was around 2,000. Ours is a little over that I think it is about 3,600 but it has only just gone up after about two or three years of allowance freezes. Take out the independent panels, which you alluded to earlier with the press coverage is this publicly palatable? and say, Look, this is what we expect of our councillors. Our backbench councillors in these kinds of authorities, in these kinds of local areas are going to be dealing with this much amount of casework. They are expected to go to this amount of meetings. One thing that perhaps is not focused on enough is that they are expected to manage their online or social media profile. We live in a society where people want accountability and transparency. Q317 Bob Blackman: Just to cut across you, there are no standards of performance for councillors. There is no contract of employment. There is no expectation, other than seeking re-election and the party expectation that you will lose someday. Rowan Draper: I take that on board, but I think there are more intelligent minds in the country that perhaps could look at those kinds of questions. It is not going to be an easy answer. The previous speakers alluded to having more town and parish councils. In a time when people don t know where their services are and who represents them Q318 Bob Blackman: Your view is that the allowances should be standardised and they should be higher. Do you have a figure? Rowan Draper: No, I don t think it necessarily needs to be higher. Q319 Bob Blackman: Who should set the allowance?

152 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 82 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton Rowan Draper: I think that it could be an interesting idea to have an independent body look at it, to do a whole range of research, not only on Q320 Bob Blackman: But those studies have been done frequently across the whole of the country and recommendations have been made and councils have said, All very nice, but we can t afford them. It is never the right time. But I accept your view. Marianne, you gave up some allowances, together with your colleagues, to divert that money to community resources. Marianne Overton: Exactly. Q321 Bob Blackman: If the offer was made that suddenly the allowances were to be increased, what would you do? Marianne Overton: Many councillors find it very difficult to accept increases in personal allowances, particularly in economically difficult times, and you can understand that. However, at the same time, by continually allowing it to stay very low, it becomes very difficult to attract younger people, who are going to have to give up some work to come and do the job. That is a problem. If it were externally-set based on experience, the job description and all of those things, personally, I would not have a problem with that at all. If it were set externally, it would be a lot easier for us. Q322 Bob Blackman: Alycia, you alluded in your written evidence to the experience you have had trying to get employment at the same time as being a councillor. Do you think the law should be changed to prevent discrimination by firms against people who are councillors or wish to become councillors? Alycia James: It would be nice to have a slightly gentler approach before we go in with a big stick and beat it around the head. It is difficult. For example, today, when I said I was coming here to speak everyone said, Oh, wow, Parliament! That s very exciting. When I say, I am going to speak in council, they say, You want time off for that, do you? It is the perception of it as well; it is a big, big problem. Q323 Bob Blackman: But you made that choice and, presumably, in your employment you have a certain number of days off a year you are entitled to claim, which you can take for public service if you so choose. Alycia James: If I don t turn up to work, I don t get paid. Q324 Bob Blackman: It depends on your terms of employment. I don t know your circumstances, but in most firms you would be entitled to a certain amount of time off and, indeed, for public service you would be entitled to a certain amount of time off as well, which is in addition to your normal holiday. Is that sufficient? Alycia James: Not really. I was applying for a new job last year, because I gave up a pretty well-paid job before I got elected, in the run up to the elections and I thought perhaps I could get another job once I got used to the role and once I had learned what I needed to learn to kick off the process. I did not think it would be as difficult as it was at that point, because I was told by the Jobcentre, Take off that; take off that; Deputy Leader, no; Vice Chair, no. Make it look like you are not really doing anything in the council. Make it look like you have lots of time for them and nothing for the council. I think that is a real shame. There are other things, like the Territorial Army; if you have somebody in that, Yes, go ahead, fantastic, brilliant. You are serving your country and it is something to be proud of. We need to get businesses into that position where they are proud to have a councillor. That should come not only from our level, but from higher up, that Look, these people are doing a good job, and hopefully then it will become something literally to be proud of rather than a pain. Q325 Bob Blackman: Okay. Simon, a change in the law? Simon Killane: I will just come in on your arguments about a change in the law. The problem is that when I was in a job and I went into the council role, I had to go to my employer and say, I want to take time off. Because there was a recession, my employer said, We are going to put you on a short working week. Councillors are either do-gooders or crooks. Best of luck; you won t win. I won and then, when the economy picked up, he said, You are back to work full-time now and if you are not back to work full-time there are going to be problems here. I became ostracised in my job, as far as I was concerned, to this day. The alternative for me then was to say, I will get another job. I will go out and get a job as a designer in another company. I have had friends say to me, There is a job going down the road for 10,000, 15,000 or 20,000 more money, and as soon as they hear you are a councillor, first of all, they don t like politicians. There is a trust element, so you are discriminated against there. You can hide it from your CV, but then when you go to the interview they find out when you say, I need to take time off from my job. The second problem is they don t like the fact that you want to take time off, because you have to. You are stuck in a no man s land where you cannot really continue on with your existing career. For me, as a product designer, I have to feed my family, pay my mortgage, the children s education and so on. At the same time, I am absolutely wedded to my role as a councillor, which I absolutely love and every day I am thinking, How am I going to continue doing this? The other problem you have is there is a certain line that you cross where, if you have so many meetings and so many things to do as a councillor, you take so much time off your job that no employer would take you on. To me, at a certain point you have to have some sort of living wage. The public do not understand. When I say to the public what I do and what I get, they say, What? They cannot believe it. They are not saying, That s terrible. You shouldn t be paid. They are ignorant of what is really going on. Once you tell them, they are like, I can t believe

153 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton this. They will understand councillors getting support as long as we are not earning a big fat cat salary and spending it on holidays. If the system says, You need the money to pay your mortgage, to keep a roof over your head, to have a pension, to be able to pay for the care of your children, for their education, for your food and for your petrol. You are doing this for the love of your community; you are not doing it to make a big salary, but you will have enough money to live comfortably and you don t have to worry about Q326 Bob Blackman: Knowing all that you know now, are you going to stand at the next election? Yes or no. Simon Killane: The answer is I am going to stand, because I am one of those very silly people who thinks the system is rubbish and will keep in. Q327 Bob Blackman: Alycia? Alycia James: Yes, and I am again in May. Q328 Bob Blackman: Rowan? Rowan Draper: I am not sure. As I outlined in my written evidence, there are a few questions I would like to answer before committing. I would like to think that I would be in a position to say yes. Q329 Bob Blackman: Okay, so that is a qualified yes. Marianne? Marianne Overton: Yes. I think it is important that a range of voices are heard. Q330 Mark Pawsey: I would like to follow up on those points, because each of you told us about the sacrifices that you have made in your careers and the income levels that you are able to enjoy as a councillor and, in some instances, the sacrifices in terms of your family life. Do you feel supported in the role that you do? Could the council officers give you more support? Councillor Draper, you spoke about a personal assistant, some kind of caseworker. What I would like to know is: what did you know about the support that would be available to you before you got elected and what have you found out since you became elected? Do you get enough? Rowan Draper: I would say I knew very little in detail about what to expect, though, because I had come from a student union background, I had had officers who had worked with me before, so I had an idea. As to whether the support was good, I think there were elements that were good. My local party could have done a bit more in the way that they supported and trained, and the local council could have done a bit more. Q331 Mark Pawsey: But how much did you know before you became a councillor about the backup and support that you would get from the council particularly? Rowan Draper: If I am honest, nothing. Q332 Mark Pawsey: Did anybody know anything? How much backup and support do you get? What kind of stuff do the officers give you? Councillor James, you said you don t understand why things that could be put in 50 words are so often put in 500 words. Is there a culture around councils that just mitigates against ordinary people being able to do the job well? Alycia James: I think sometimes they will put in so many words to hide some of the argument, to an extent, and you are fishing through 100 pages of paperwork, which you are given on the Thursday night for the Monday morning, trying to find everything you need to find. It is difficult. Q333 Mark Pawsey: If you could change that, how would you change it? What would you like to see done to make things better for somebody like you that would make it much more exciting to go to that meeting? Alycia James: Well, some of them I am not sure they could ever be exciting to go to, to be honest. It is when you are given paperwork at very short notice and it is full of stuff that is just repeated from previous times. If you do not know it from previous times, then go and read your old paperwork. Just having it more concise and to the point would help a lot of people. We do not get a lot of support, to be honest. There is part of me that would like having a caseworker, because so much of my time goes into casework, but that is the most satisfying part of my role; it is talking to the people that I represent and helping them. Q334 Mark Pawsey: So if offered one, you would not want one? Alycia James: I would like some help, but not a full caseworker. Q335 Mark Pawsey: What help would you like, then, if you don t want a caseworker? Alycia James: Perhaps being able to sometimes say I suppose it is a caseworker to an extent This is what I want; a response doing to the person, but to still be in complete control. I do not want to lose that input with the residents, but there are some, very routine things that come up that could almost be dealt with by somebody else. Q336 Mark Pawsey: Councillor Killane, would you like this caseworker? Simon Killane: I am capable of doing my own casework and I would not like to have the situation where somebody else was doing my casework for me. I am articulate, I am educated, I can go on to PCs, I can do documents and so on. Q337 Mark Pawsey: But how are we going to create you this time then? Simon Killane: What I would love is to be able to have a little office in my town of 5,000 people, with a computer and a phone, and be paid a basic living wage so I could go to the meetings, so I could get involved in things, see my family at weekends and not have to take my holidays off, and then, when people had problems in the town, they could come straight to my office and talk to me. I could be doing all my casework, doing all my council work, attending the meetings I needed to and getting my job done, rather

154 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Ev 84 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton than stuck up in my attic at three o clock in the morning dealing with a production line of hundreds of s, trying to cope with these documents and stuff that comes at short notice, knowing that the officers are paid sometimes very large salaries, have pensions, have security, while I am doing it on a shoestring budget. That is what I would love. Q338 Mark Pawsey: Councillor Overton, as an independent, these three guys who are party political appointments and have political parties behind them that provide them with some backup and resource have an advantage you do not have. How do you manage to do it? Marianne Overton: I would definitely snap up your offer, so long as I could write the job description. I sit on two councils, as I mentioned earlier. On the district council we have very little direct support. There is one secretary, if that is the right word, who looks after everybody and is not exactly somebody you can ask to do a letter or whatever. Whereas on the county council we do have shared administrative support and that is enormously helpful. They can do things like organise meetings for you and check if there is a clash in your diary. They keep my diary for me and it makes a huge difference to how much time I can spend on thinking about the issues and supporting the individuals. Q339 Mark Pawsey: Did you have to kick and scream to get that or does everybody have that? Marianne Overton: Lincolnshire County Council was in a particular position a few years ago that meant we were forced into making some substantial improvements and it was an outfall of that. Q340 Mark Pawsey: So everybody gets it. Marianne Overton: We all get a proportion; that is right. It is by proportion. Lincolnshire County Council and North Kesteven District Council were in the first tranche of accredited councils for the support they give to councillors. Q341 Mark Pawsey: If each of you did not know what backup and support you were going to get as councillors, you presumably had no idea what training would be provided, unless any of you went to talk to the local council before you put your names forward to become councillors. What training have you had and what would you like? Simon Killane: I will very briefly say that I have written to my council several times, the training officers and my own party training officer, to say, Please stop sending me s saying, There is a course on Wednesday at 10 o clock. I have used up all my holiday entitlement. My family have had no holiday this year; I have used it for meetings. I cannot go to training courses during the day. Then they will say, Well, maybe we will run them at night, but they don t. I have missed out on all of the training that is available. There is loads of good quality training available for any councillor all the time; I just cannot do it. Q342 Mark Pawsey: So you would participate if it was in the evenings. Simon Killane: I would, but again you have the problem with your children and your family. Yes, it would be better if some were in the evening, but you also have to remember that as councillors and I am sure it is the same here we do an awful lot. We attend parish and town council meetings, planning meetings I am on the northern area planning committee meeting, which is in the evening and area board meetings. If you look at my diary on my website Simon Killane in Google you will see every single meeting I do is on my diary. Lots of it is at night. You have to start rethinking this whole process of how we get to do the things we want to do here. It is not just saying, Put it on at night. Alycia James: I had some training with the Conservative Councils Association after I got elected. Q343 Mark Pawsey: After? Alycia James: Yes. Very little before from anybody, or even advice, to be honest, and I have had quite a lot with the LGA. They have been the best resource. Q344 Mark Pawsey: Has the training been relevant? Has it helped you do your job? Alycia James: Yes. Q345 Mark Pawsey: It has. What type of training have you done? Alycia James: I was on something called the Next Generation leadership programme from the LGA. Not only did it give you practical advice about how to deal with different sorts of problems; as simple as it was, sometimes they gave you enough knowledge to give you that confidence to deal with problems. Sometimes that is one of the big issues. Q346 Mark Pawsey: But that was the political party s training. Alycia James: No, the LGA does it for all groups. Some of the training that they have provided otherwise has been excellent, but I am not sure if that is available to people who are thinking of standing. Q347 Mark Pawsey: The other two members, have you done LGA training? Rowan Draper: I attended the Young Councillors Training Conference and, out of that, myself and other councillors decided that we wanted to set up a support network for other councillors and potential candidates. Rather than rely on the LGA or any other groups that are there to support, we are doing it ourselves. Q348 Mark Pawsey: Councillor Draper, you seem quite keen on standardised packages; you are quite keen on a standardised set of allowances and you are quite keen on a standardised induction. Why a standardised induction? Rowan Draper: Because I think, regardless of age or background, there are skills that people don t have.

155 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_ HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton Q349 Mark Pawsey: But you don t think circumstances are different on different councils, because the challenges they face are different? Rowan Draper: Sometimes, but I think that you can have an induction process that would support individual members. It is going to have to be locally tailored. One of the things I would say is that the training that I did has been more about information rather than skills. I would have loved, before joining the scrutiny committee, to have the ability to perhaps test out my scrutiny powers, because now, facing a real life scrutiny committee as a witness for the first time, it really does give you a different understanding of how you are supposed to prepare. The one thing that I would like, if I could have anything, is somebody who is able to give me the bullets to fire at people when it comes to Q350 Mark Pawsey: I am not sure that many councillors are trained to sit before a committee such as this, so you have done very well. Councillor Overton, what training have you had and what would you like? Marianne Overton: I am going to take training broadly. One of the other ways of training people, thinking of those huge wads of paper and you are absolutely right; you are talking big quantities is briefings. By having an officer, when a big item is coming forward, tell me what is important What if? Okay. Right. you can make it much more looking forward. That way you also get a chance to influence the officer, I have to say, in developing the policy. Q351 Mark Pawsey: You would like more bullet points; more concise reports from officers. Marianne Overton: Concise. If you ask them a direct question, you get a direct answer and that is quite handy. It is much better than the wads of paperwork. For council staff to be responsive on the phone is also very helpful. The other aspect that is more difficult is attendance at conferences and other kinds of training. I have done some in-house training with the councils, which is very much geared towards, These are the issues. Now you know about them, right? There are other kinds of training, which are much more, These are the skills we are working towards and then going through a process to get there and to achieve those skills. That kind of training I have had from the Local Government Association. The difficulty with attendance of training externally to councils is the cost and, being political organisations, a ruling group is often very disinclined to fund another member to attend training. At Lincolnshire County Council, I have been fortunate; we have got a training budget for each group, which is in proportion to their numbers. That is really important. I cannot understand why all councils do not do that. It is definitely the right way forward. Chair: Thank you all very much indeed for coming and giving us such interesting and informative evidence. Thank you.

156 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Ev 86 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Monday 29 October 2012 Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair) Bob Blackman Simon Danczuk Bill Esterson David Heyes James Morris Mark Pawsey Heather Wheeler Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Olly Buston, Executive Director, Members and Supporters, Labour Party, Steve Hitchins, Lead, Be a Councillor programme, Liberal Democrats, and Robert Neill MP, Vice Chairman, Local Government, Conservative Party, gave evidence. Q352 Chair: Good afternoon and welcome all of you to our fifth evidence session in the inquiry into Councillors and the Community. For the sake of our records, could you say who you are and the organisation you represent? Olly Buston: I am Olly Buston. I am the Executive Director for Members and Supporters at the Labour Party. Steve Hitchins: Steve Hitchins. I am representing the Liberal Democrats and I run the Be a Councillor events that we do. Robert Neill: I am Bob Neill MP and I am Vice Chairman of the Conservative Party, responsible for local government. Q353 Chair: You are most welcome. I think, Olly, you have not been with us before. Steve, I do not know whether you have been to a Select Committee. Steve Hitchins: No. Q354 Chair: You have not. Bob, well, what can I say? I did not used to believe in reincarnation, but here you are proving me wrong after all. You are all very welcome. Robert Neill: Thank you, Clive. Can I just say I very much appreciated the generosity of your words to my successors when they came along on another occasion? It was very kind. Chair: They were meant, absolutely. Robert Neill: That is very nice of you. Q355 Chair: We have heard quite a lot from witnesses during our inquiry that political parties have a significant role in trying to get more people, and a greater variety of people, to stand for council but, in the end, perhaps their real interest is in winning elections, and as long as they win them, they are not that bothered who the councillors are or how well they perform. Is that a fair comment? Robert Neill: It is a simplification, if I might say, and for pretty obvious reasons. It is in the interests of any political party to have the best available candidates, precisely for the reason that you not only want those candidates who are electable in the first instance and therefore have the campaigning and the community skills to make a good stab of getting elected, but also you do not want to have a situation where you have councillors who do not then do the job and do not get re-elected. Therefore, it is in everybody s interests to have the best people coming forward. It is equally fair to say that that is usually going to be best achieved at a more local level, rather than by some kind of national template, because it is local knowledge of the particular community and the particular ward the political intelligence, in the truest sense of the word that you need to bring that forward. Political parties can help in some of the training and support that we then give, but it is in everybody s interest to have the best possible pool of talent coming forward, I would have thought. Steve Hitchins: Yes. Further than that, the better the candidate, the better your chance of winning, because not only do the voters quickly get a feel of how good, interested, active and local that candidate is, but so do the other members of the campaign team supporting that candidate. Their enthusiasm, energy and commitment to winning that election is often greatly influenced by their personal judgment of how good and how committed that candidate is. Further than that, you do need good councillors. I know most of you, if not all, have been elected councillors. There is a school of thought that thinks that the people who run councils are the senior officers, but weak councillors make for poor councils, in my opinion and experience. Unless you have good-quality councillors providing that strategic direction and political leadership, councils can really struggle. We suffer sometimes from not having sufficient talent in the council chamber. Olly Buston: I would just add that, for the Labour Party, in opposition, the real way we can prove to people in communities that we are worthy of being elected is if we can make a real change in their lives and in their communities. We can do that only through really effective local campaigning and local government, so the quality of our candidates is hugely important. It is also critically important that they fully represent and reflect the communities they serve. Q356 Chair: In 2007, we had the Councillors Commission, which was generally warmly received and then presumably filed in bottom drawers somewhere. Can you name one single initiative that your parties have taken as a result of that commission? Olly Buston: There are a number of important recommendations in the Councillors Commission report: on BME representation; on the training of under-represented groups; on best practice in

157 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP candidate selection; on exceptions to enforcing the party whip on the grounds of conscience; as well as in other areas. In all those areas, we are making real efforts at improving. We know we have got a long way to go. Q357 Chair: Has anything changed, as opposed to efforts to try to achieve change? Olly Buston: On the example of enforcing the party whip, we are loosening that to allow flexibility on the grounds of conscience on some local planning issues. We have taken a lot of initiatives in the training of under-represented group. The Future Candidates Programme we have set up, which started last year, explicitly attempts to bring in a much wider range of candidates from BME communities and to increase the number of women candidates. It is explicitly doing that, and doing it pretty well, but again we have a long way to go and we will not be satisfied until our candidates and our councillors fully represent the communities they serve. Steve Hitchins: We were in great support of the Councillors Commission. If there was an error, the mistake they made was going for term limits in the recommendations, which unfortunately did not manage to get much support from existing councillors strange that. That put the whole report on the back burner. But all the stuff we have done about broadening and widening the pool of talent from which we select looking outside party membership, and looking at ethnic minorities, disabled people and younger people in particular we have tried very hard to deliver on. Robert Neill: We have taken a number of initiatives, which I will happily set out in a moment. I have to say that they were not always directly in response to the recommendations of the Councillors Commission. Some of the issues that the Councillors Commission raised were important ones. That issue about broadening the base of councillors and where candidates come from was an important issue, but I have to say I take a slightly different view. I have to say that I feel that the Councillors Commission rather spoilt what were some good proposals with some other proposals that, frankly, my party and I personally regarded as very unacceptable indeed and which now, I suspect, would be regarded as almost incomprehensible by a public that has become rightly or wrongly much more sceptical of the way in which, for example, any elected representative at any level is rewarded, in some of the ways the Councillors Commission proposed. In 2007, it might have been well intended, but I think it got in the way and now it is impractical. However, we have taken some specific steps and, we do so in three ways, Mr Betts: first, through the Conservative Councillors Association, which also admits candidate members. That has a range of online tools and material available, as well as hard copies, including advice to Conservative council group leaders, and also advice to our constituency parties, in effect, as to how they should seek candidates. We have published that and it includes a list of suggestions as to how you can go outside the normal party ranks to search for people. We suggest looking at community activists, school governors, people who are involved in local businesses and local voluntary organisations, and keen people you meet when you are out canvassing, as well as looking at people who are party members or supporters. We have sought to do it that way. Also, in November last year, we introduced into our standard selection process an agreement to stand, which all Conservative councillor candidates have to sign up to. That sets out certain basic things that are expected of Conservative councillors, including proper, regular and rigorous attendance at council meetings; dealing promptly, courteously and appropriately with casework and constituents; and themselves acting as, if you like, a positive face for the party in dealing with their community. We have got to some of those areas that the Commission flagged up, but through our own way of doing it. Q358 Bill Esterson: Bob, Olly and, to a certain extent, Steve made the point about taking on board what the Commission recommended, but I wonder how successful that has been. I am aware that some of those recommendations have been implemented in some flagship councils, but I wonder how widespread that has been and whether the sorts of contracts that you just described, Bob the Labour Party has a similar approach are followed, or whether people just pay lip service to these things because they are being told to do them centrally. Olly Buston: In terms of the Labour Party s candidates and the councillor contracts, they are a relatively new innovation over the last few months in terms of being party policy, but they very much build on best practice that has been happening across the country for many years and in many places. It is great when you are standing to be a candidate if you are making commitments about the extent to which you are going to engage with the community that you are seeking to serve. Equally, it is a very good thing if councillors can sign contracts that spell out the kinds of things that they are going to do and commit to being a high-quality councillor. In the best examples, these kinds of contracts have been used to help identify training needs for individuals and, in some cases, they are taken into consideration when it comes to re-selection. They are very positive. They do build on best practice elsewhere; they are not an invention that we have had over the last few months. The commitment that they should be the norm and introduced everywhere and that they will drive a cultural change within the parties is a good one. Steve Hitchins: The Liberal Democrats have a much more devolved command-and-control structure than the other two parties, in my experience they may disagree so there is no hard and fast set of rules. However, I know personally that we were getting candidates to sign contracts as long ago as 1998, and since then they have been part of the Be a Councillor programme that I deliver as a firm recommendation. There have been model copies on the Association of Liberal Democrat Councillors website where you just cut and paste the name of your council. We have tried to build them as two-way contracts. In other words, not only are there the dos and the don ts, but there is

158 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Ev 88 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP also what support you can get from the group, because most people who come in to be a councillor from the cold, as it were, as first-time candidates do not realise that the councillor is not working in isolation on their own. Most people who, as members of the public, engage with a councillor engage with one person on a one-to-one basis. They do not see them in a group situation. They do not see them discussing and working as a team. They do not see them backing each other up if someone is not well, they will get cover for their surgeries. They do not get that concept, so we put a lot of that into the contract to make sure there is support for that individual within the team of the group of councillors. It has become best practice. It is increasingly being more widely used, not least because if you have a councillor who has signed the contract and in the very rare circumstances this happens that person does not perform to the best of their ability, you have a piece of paper that makes deselection easier. That is probably the dark side. Robert Neill: It builds on practice that I remember going on in, say, the London borough of Wandsworth when they had contracts back in the 1990s. Indeed, I think they were getting their candidates to sign contracts very early on, because they wanted to go on to the council s approved list. It was sensible to roll that out across the piece. Not long after the Commission s report, we adopted a standardised form of application and selection procedure for our candidates. This is underpinned, in our case, by the party s constitution, which requires both the constituency associations that select the candidates and the groups to which, if successful, they will belong on the council to act within the party constitution. The requirement to enter into the agreement to stand, as we are calling it, is underpinned by the constitution, in our case. Of course, the policing of it has to be done at a local level and I think that is inevitable, sensible and proportionate, but we have a local government department within central office, which gives legal and constitutional advice in those rare instances where it is needed. However, as my colleagues have said, the training and backup that you give is very important in practice. As I say, we deliver that through the Conservative Councillors Association, and also the Conservative strand of the Be a Councillor campaign we produce specific material on that. Steve Hitchins: Could I just add that the signing of that contract by a candidate, where it is used, is a condition of approval? If they want to be approved and there is one of these contracts in operation, they have to sign it there and then. It is not something you do when you get elected; it is about an approval process. Q359 Bob Blackman: Can I ask each of you your personal role, in your position, in encouraging people to stand for council positions and encouraging local groups to adopt best practice? Can I start with you, Bob? Robert Neill: As the Vice Chairman, I have got oversight of that political operation we have in central office. I also sit on the board of the Conservative Councillors Association and, on a personal level, I generally contribute a passage to the Conservative Councillors Association monthly newsletter. We also send out a weekly information bulletin and I can contribute to that. I regularly go to some of the events that we hold around the country. Over the last two months or so, since I was appointed to my current job, I have been to Warwickshire, Windsor and Buckinghamshire, and I am due to go down to Exeter shortly. That is exactly about having a mixture of sitting councillors and existing councillors. I am setting up at the moment some further refinements to our template to monitor candidate selection in the runup to the county council elections, obviously for political reasons, because I want to make sure we have all the candidates lined up in the target seats, but it also gives us other information about where we are getting the candidates from. I hold weekly telephone conferences with the appropriate Conservative group leaders, which people come in to. If there are particular issues that people wish to raise with me, I meet them in London, make a visit to the area if I can or we talk by telephone. It is trying to lead by example and to encourage whenever you can. We have done some good work recently with Women2Win, which I know is predominantly aimed at getting people into Westminster, but very often you find that there is a spin-off from women who come forward and are interested at that stage, but, either as part of the process of getting to Westminster or as an alternative, want to go into local government work. We have some dedicated people who work with them as well. Q360 Bob Blackman: That is very helpful. Steve? Steve Hitchins: I think I have done every one of the Be a Councillor events the Liberal Democrats have Q361 Bob Blackman: I am going to ask you about that in a minute, but specifically within your party, do you have a role of encouraging? Steve Hitchins: Yes. That was why I got the job, because that was my record as a councillor. We have done 120 of these events around the country over the past six years and we come away from each one of them with a list of real names of real people who they are going to contact and take further. The programme is designed to make people look outside the party membership, because we think that is too restrictive. Q362 Bob Blackman: Has there been an upsurge in the number of people applying to be councillors as a result of your events? Steve Hitchins: There has been an upsurge in people being approached. I am a firm believer that the existing councillor cadre have to get out there and approach people. They are the best recruiters and talent spotters, but sometimes they get rather bogged down in what they are doing, with limited vision and it is very easy to say, Let us have a look at the membership list again, and it is the same tired old names. Q363 Bob Blackman: Can you put a number on it? You say you have run 120 events, so how many extra

159 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP people have been either approached or encouraged to stand for council as a result? Steve Hitchins: I do the identification. Q364 Bob Blackman: I just wondered if you collected any data on how many people have Steve Hitchins: I collect all the names and, off the top of my head, I would estimate that we finish those meetings with about 40 names at least. Q365 Bob Blackman: At each meeting? Steve Hitchins: At each of those meetings, yes. Q366 Bob Blackman: So could you then Steve Hitchins: On average, for the people who attend Q367 Bob Blackman: So would you average that to about 500 people extra as a result? Steve Hitchins: Comfortably. Probably more than that. Q368 Bob Blackman: Thank you. Olly, what is your role in this? Olly Buston: My role is split into three areas. One is around our digital strategy; one is around our member services function; and the other is around partnerships and stakeholders. Our local government officer sits in the partnerships and stakeholders area and he is responsible for co-ordinating our overall work and support package for councillors. The fact that it sits within a stakeholders and partnerships team is not a bad thing. Our women and equalities officer, for example, is our link into, and works with, the very diverse and vibrant affiliate and friends of groups within the Labour Party, whether that be BME Labour, Chinese for Labour or Labour Women s Network. They are a very important vehicle for us to reach out to encourage people to stand as councillors. Those affiliates are very active in reaching out, in organising training and in encouraging people who have not thought about standing to be a councillor to seek selection. Q369 Bob Blackman: Can I ask all three of you what scope you see for joint party co-operation in encouraging people from the community to come forward to be councillors we have heard various different pieces of evidence on this or should it just be left to the political parties to gain their own candidates? Steve Hitchins: Can I jump in here? I think, very firmly, that it is up to the politicians. I have worked closely with the Be a Councillor programme and the different democratic services departments in individual councils all over the country and, in my experience, whenever they do anything, they attract some really well-meaning people who have a real commitment to public service and want to make a difference, but they all say that they want to stand as independents. There is absolutely nothing wrong with independent councillors, but there is absolutely no quality control, and when, at the LGA, we have tried to engage with the independent group, they are not so sure whether they want to engage with this. That is because we have a whipping system in the other parties and, therefore, there is never more than one Liberal Democrat candidate for one seat. There is no limit on how many independents may stand, so they are not always encouraging other independents to stand, because it becomes competitive for the seat. Does that make sense? Bob Blackman: That does make sense, yes. Steve Hitchins: It is up to the politicians. Q370 Bob Blackman: Up to the politicians, fine. Olly, what is your view? Steve Hitchins: That does not mean we do not work together. Bob Blackman: No, I am not suggesting that. Olly Buston: The biggest burden falls on the parties and it is our responsibility to try to attract the best. Q371 Bob Blackman: By holding joint events? Olly Buston: The one way in which we are all linked up is through the LGA. The Be a Councillor programme is one that Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories are involved in, so that is a way in which there is a structure in place that is providing really good support for people who might want to be a councillor. Q372 Bob Blackman: Bob, what is your view? Robert Neill: I am broadly with Steve on this. At the end of the day, Olly is perfectly correct to say that there are instances at a national level when we will co-operate, and Be a Councillor is one of them, because that is, if you like, a broad, overarching agenda that we can all sign up to. However, I do not think it is realistic to think that we can deliver that agenda through a nationally imposed template of action, which is slightly different from raising the awareness nationally of an issue that we might all sign up to. Let us face it: at the end of the day, the parties are intended to be in competition with each other and that competition is healthy and part of the electoral process. Bob Blackman: I think we have a clear answer to that. Steve Hitchins: Further than that, of course, we have to interface with the political leaders of the groups in the individual councils to which you go to give this support. They are not always the most co-operative. Q373 Bob Blackman: I can understand that. Finally from me: in your experience, are people put off by the fact that allowances to be councillors are too low? Olly Buston: The main reason why people put themselves forward to be councillors is because they want to change their community they want to improve the lives of people in their communities and they have a commitment to doing that. I do not think the main motivation for people is money, and I do not think we want to be in a situation where it is. Certainly, given the great squeeze on living standards that people across the country are facing at the moment, I do not think now is a good time to be talking about increasing allowances. Q374 Bob Blackman: We have taken evidence, particularly from younger councillors, who have said

160 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Ev 90 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP that the problem is that the allowance is too small for them to reduce their working lives, but it can be seen by the public as being too large and that can be off-putting. Bob, do you have a view? Robert Neill: I am influenced, perhaps, by my own history. I was elected as a councillor when I was 21, which either indicates that I was very keen or very sad or possibly some mixture of the two. It was great fun, but that was long before there were allowances of any kind beyond just that very nominal almost single-figure in terms of pounds sum that you got for attendance at the meetings. I practised as a barrister throughout all the 16 years I was a councillor, including when holding what would now be regarded as cabinet positions under the committee system. I wanted to do it and I adjusted my working pattern, but it is also fair to say that the council was pretty good about when it tried to hold its committee meetings. For example, because we were in the London commuter land, we held very few daytime meetings so that people could hold down jobs, and most people I knew were certainly in full-time work in all parts of the council. The council s own organisation, I thought, was more important about making it possible for people to take that on. Steve Hitchins: If I can pick up where Bob left off, I think councils and councillors in particular have a responsibility to make sure that their working day is not impossible alongside a full-time job, otherwise we lose those important people as elected councillors and also we turn what was never intended to be a full-time job into one and that is a mistake. We do not want professional councillors. Having said that, councillors have got a bit to answer for themselves, because in opposition one of their favourite tricks is to say, We are going to cut the allowances, if they think it is vote-winner. I am not convinced it is a vote-winner. You can probably lose votes by inflating councillors allowances at the wrong time and in the wrong way but, generally, if the council is well-run, my view is that you attract a better councillor if you pay a reasonable remuneration. Better councillors result in a better council, and the saving from having good councillors is potentially quite large. Q375 Chair: Can I just follow up on what Olly said? Is the Labour Party seriously saying that it believes that it is not a cause for concern in regard to getting younger or middle-aged people on to councils that people in their 30s and 40s with families may end up having to give up a couple of days of work in order to do their council work and end up being significantly worse off at a time when their family pressures are on them? Olly Buston: That is definitely a challenging and important issue, and I am sure that there are people who do not stand for that reason, but I do not think that the issue of allowances is something the public would be very keen on prioritising. There are lots of other important measures that we can take. We are very concerned that 70%-plus of councillors do not have a caring responsibility, so if you have a caring responsibility, you are currently not putting yourself forward to be selected. That weakens the talent pool and it weakens the range of experience. Part of addressing that does not have to be about money; it is also about issues of timetabling and other kinds of support that colleagues on the panel spoke about. Q376 Mark Pawsey: You are all aware that we are conducting this inquiry partly because councillors are not representative of their communities. I do want to ask some questions about the under-representation of certain groups, but can I just ask you about the political dimension? Is it not a frustration for some people thinking about becoming a councillor that, regardless of how good you are, it depends on where your party is standing in the polls? You could be a really good councillor and lose your seat because your party is unpopular in the country and, at the same time, you could be a pretty poor councillor and get elected simply because you have got the right party badge. Have you got any views about how that particular issue affects the quality of people coming forward? Robert Neill: It is frustrating, but I think we just have to accept, Mr Pawsey, that that is the consequence of a democratic system. Many of us were probably on the receiving end of it when we were councillors ourselves. I did not think it stopped good people coming forward. Of course, you had then to maintain the morale of those folks if they either lost their seat, or lost control of the council during those bad periods. That is the job of the party. The other point is that we would all like to see a greater spread of diversity in the sort of people who become councillors. That is a range of things. There is more we can do, as I said before, around timetabling, which makes youngsters in work and women with caring responsibilities more able to stand. My own party is doing more work to attract councillors from various ethnic minority communities. There is an element, of course, of the fact that to a degree your councillors will tend to be representative of the areas where your particular party has its electoral strengths. There is a broader issue for my party that Grant Shapps, the Chairman, I and colleagues are working on, about making sure we get support more deeply in ethnic minority communities in the UK as a piece. That is very important work anyway and I hope that will lead to an influence on our councillor numbers, but you have got to do it that way around rather than the other way around. Q377 Mark Pawsey: Steve, what is your view about a party s standing at any one time? Steve Hitchins: You must experience it in your jobs too: the pendulum swings. You have a better chance of attracting people from a larger pool where the party is more popular, because the membership is larger, the activist base is larger and all those things go together. However, we have quite a strong history of winning council seats against the trend and winning control of councils in places where you would not expect that to happen. There was a time when seven out of eight major cities had Liberal Democrat-chaired administrations, which is not the norm. These things happen.

161 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP Q378 Mark Pawsey: Do you have any evidence that people are put off by the cyclical nature of political representation? Steve Hitchins: No, I do not think so. We tend to have tides in these matters. If there is a council where things are beginning to happen where we are beginning to gain seats and the other two parties have taken their eye off the ball, or are not performing very well, or the council is in trouble you find that a group of people become very active and energised, and start attracting like-minded people, so the momentum builds. You see that in places where, over three or four elections, all of a sudden the Liberal Democrats start doing well. That is a bigger influence and a bigger factor. The energy of those individuals who are doing the campaigning attracts like-minded and equally committed people, and it is always the interface at a personal level that makes the difference. Olly Buston: There are much bigger barriers, such as time we mentioned child care issues and the most important one, perhaps, is that the idea of being a councillor and putting yourself forward to be a councillor is completely alien to a wide variety of people who would, in effect, be excellent councillors. Q379 Mark Pawsey: If people are not putting themselves forward, what is the Labour Party doing to go out and find these people? Olly Buston: There is an awful lot more we could do, but we have a Future Candidates Programme that is specifically designed to reach out to the widest possible group of people, and we are doing that through newspaper adverts. It is in its second year and we are using, as the face of the programme, graduates from the previous year who have not come through the traditional route of becoming a councillor. One hundred per cent. of the people on that scheme are not on those traditional paths to becoming a councillor. We are also using that scheme to reach out to women more than 50% of people on the programme are women and to BME communities as well. There is an awful lot more we could do and we want to build on that platform, but, along with the Be a Councillor programme, which we are all engaged in in our own ways, that is a very important initiative for us. Q380 Mark Pawsey: Bob, you told us some of the things the Conservative Party is doing to try to attract people from other groups or groups that are less well represented. How transparent is the selection process? Is there a tendency for a selection panel to go for a safe person, who might be somebody who fits the stereotype, rather than take a risk on somebody perhaps from a slightly different background? Robert Neill: It is always very difficult to quantify how that works in practice. The rules are very clear in that there are certain safeguards: anyone who is themselves interested in standing cannot take part in the selectorate; and the application forms are designed in a way not to create information that might trip people up so that there is an entirely level playing field. I think all the parties have the same standard approach in that regard. It is a question of encouraging. I think it was perhaps more the case in the past that parties were unwilling to be bold. I do not think that that is the case now, but in those areas in particular, Mark, I do suggest it is very important that the parties at that level enforce that. That is why we have that standardised selection procedure and we have party professionals in the field who can make sure that that is properly policed. Q381 Mark Pawsey: Do you have any thoughts on open primaries for councillors? Robert Neill: As you know, our party has used open primaries for parliamentary candidates and that has sometimes produced some very good results. Some of the products are here in this House. I certainly have no objection to the principle of open primaries. We would have to look at the practicality. I do not rule out the idea. Some local associations and local council groups are doing much more to involve people. Our group in Northumberland County Council, a unitary, have been doing an open manifesto session to get members of the public to come and say, What do you think we should be putting in our manifesto? The same principle can apply, within certain constraints. The party constitution does have to make sure there are proper safeguards to ensure that the whole process is conducted transparently and properly. Q382 Mark Pawsey: In the other two parties, are your processes sufficiently transparent, or are there steps you are taking to make the process more transparent? Steve Hitchins: In the Be a Councillor programme, I make the point on every possible occasion that a natural trait for any human being going into a room of complete strangers is to first approach someone who looks remarkably like them, so selection panels have a natural trait of picking people who look like them. Three white, middle-aged lawyers tend to select white, middle-aged lawyers. You have to train people. It does not take more than 10 minutes, but just because someone is young does not mean they are a bit dodgy, or might not be able to do the job, might not show the commitment, or might not last the full four years. You have to train people to widen their horizons. That is important, and that is now part of the process wherever we have a selection panel. The other thing that is important is that we draw a wider net when we are first going out to approach people. It is very much about an individual, one-to-one basis of doing that. A very good example came from a group of councillors at a London council where there is a significant Afro-Caribbean community and they were all, to use their phrase, very pale, male and stale. They decided that it was important to go out and find someone from that community. They took the step of saying, We are councillors. Our council gives a grant to a couple of Afro-Caribbean associations. Let s write to them, invite ourselves, meet some people and see if they would be interested in being involved. Of course, for the first six months, they were treated with a fair amount of suspicion, but eventually they got to know people there and they did recruit people who have been candidates and who have become elected. It is

162 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Ev 92 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP about them taking steps and then building it on a one-to-one basis. Olly Buston: I would just add that we are going through a process of party reform, called Refounding Labour, which is based on a consultation that tens of thousands of Labour members contributed to. One of the innovations there is setting up local campaign forums that are in charge of recruitment, selection and local election campaigns. They are specifically mandated with coming up with a recruitment strategy that pulls in the widest possible range of candidates. Through the selection panel process, there is an emphasis on quality and diversity. However, to be blunt, positive action is probably, in certain areas, what really works, and certainly when it comes to women s representation we are enforcing that. Q383 Mark Pawsey: Does that mean shortlists? Olly Buston: Yes, and women candidates. Q384 David Heyes: I would like to press you a bit further on that point. I do not think there is any question that the positive action programme has brought about significant improvement in the ratio of women candidates, in particular, but it has not been without critics. We have had evidence, for instance, that drafting in high flyers through positive action does nothing to address issues at the grass roots, and that positive action is anti-democratic or undermining for candidates. What do you say to people who say that? Olly Buston: I would say it is much less undemocratic than having a dismally low number of women councillors, MPs and so on. It has worked at the national level we have more women MPs than all the other parties put together and we believe that it will work at the local level. We have a long way to go in terms of the proportion of women councillors and candidates. It is still pretty low at the Labour Party and we have a lot of work to do. In every policy, there are going to be challenges and downsides, but we are utterly committed to this and we believe the democratic upside massively outweighs those downsides. In terms of getting the broadest and highest quality possible pool of candidates, it is crazy not to make sure that women are coming forward. Q385 David Heyes: You have talked about the Future Candidates Programme and particularly that one of the intentions is to improve the number of BME candidates coming forward, but you have not gone so far as to apply the positive action programme to the BME candidates. Is that right? If so, why not? Olly Buston: That is correct at this moment in time. About 50% or slightly more of every community all across the country are women, and it is an easier policy to apply, if we are being blunt. There is a much more complicated mix of ethnicity across the country, which is very different locally. It is very hard to apply a top-down measure on that issue, although there are probably ways of doing it. What I would say is that our emphasis in terms of encouraging and growing the number of BME councillors and candidates is very much through this outreach and training. Some 19% of the people who have been through the Future Candidates Programme are from a BME background and we have some fantastic candidates coming forward. We have a candidate called Marvin Rees who is standing for election to be the mayor of Bristol. If he is successful, he will be the first elected black mayor in western Europe, which is a shocking statistic, but it will be a good step. He will have the third biggest mandate of any politician in the UK and that will be a positive step. However, there is a long, long way to go. There is a lot more effort to do, and we need never to be satisfied until our candidates and councillors fully represent the diversity of the communities they represent. Q386 David Heyes: Bob and Steve, positive action has demonstrably worked for Labour, if only in terms of getting the number of candidates increased, but both your parties are opposed to it in principle. Why is that? It works. Steve Hitchins: We have taken decisions through the party conference, which is our decision-making forum for these matters, and on at least three occasions positive action has been rejected. In the leader s words, our party s record on this is lamentable. When he gave evidence to the Speaker s Conference in 2010, he made it very clear that something had to change. He then got another job, which has delayed this a bit, but we have to do something it is very weak. Personally, I am in favour of positive action. There is a great deal to be said for it, because it provides role models. We have increased the amount of training, increased the incentives and we have set up special funds. We do a great deal about this. It is a terrible problem at the parliamentary level, and while it is less of a problem at the local level, it is still not good enough. The party knows that everywhere; we just have a very strong view among party members about whether or not we should take positive action. Robert Neill: We do not support positive action in that sense as a matter of principle and I agree with that, because it is our belief that you want the best people coming forward, regardless of gender or ethnicity. I do think that is a very important principle and we should not restrict the choice of the selectorate in that way. However, I do think that there is a strong role for positive action in what I regard as a positive rather than a slightly manipulative way I do not mean manipulative in a malign way, but in the sense that it changes the open nature of the selection system. There is a very positive role for encouraging more people in the pool of potential candidates and my party as much and in some cases more than others has to do more around that. That is something that we have been doing. We did see, for example, in the last general election both a significant change in the number of women MPs and a worthwhile and important increase in the number of ethnic minority MPs, starting from a very low base in my party s case. I honestly believe that is, long-term, the better result, because people will be able to say, I came through absolutely on ability. Nobody can ever challenge that. In that way, you are creating the point about role models, which is hugely important. We certainly need to do more to encourage and support role models who will ensure that we have a good spread of people

163 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP from right across the community. I think we all agree with the objective; it is just the means that we disagree on. Steve Hitchins: Could I just add that we do have quotas on shortlists, so although that is not positive action in candidates, it is on shortlists. Q387 David Heyes: Is there more of a role for quotas in helping to move things forward? Steve Hitchins: I would rather be judged by the outcome than the method and, at the moment, we are just not in the right place. Robert Neill: I am in some sympathy with that. We do have quotas in relation to parliamentary shortlists. At a local level in particular, the first thing is getting a good pool of people coming forward. The most important thing is to get the outcomes I am sure every one of us wants to see. Olly Buston: It might be a bit of a cheap point, but the makeup of this room reflects the face that decades of softer efforts to increase the representation of women I include myself in this and diversity have not been successful, so we have to look at much stronger measures. Q388 Bill Esterson: Do you prefer your candidates to have been in the party for a long time before they are selected, or before they are allowed to seek selection? Olly Buston: In our Future Candidates Programme we are explicitly seeking people who do not follow those traditional routes into being councillors. Part of that is by encouraging people who are not party members but who are brilliant community activists and organisers who are getting things done locally to be candidates. Slightly under 10% of the people who came through that scheme in the first year were not party members when they walked through the door. That is not the overwhelming majority, but where there are really strong people like that, we should be encouraging them in. Steve Hitchins: The single-word answer is no. I am certainly encouraging our local parties to look for candidates outside the existing membership list more and more and more, and almost as a preference. That is partly because that is a reflection that the membership of the political parties is much, much smaller than it was 10 years ago and probably at the moment is shrinking. I also think that we desperately need to bring in new blood. People join political parties for a number of reasons; I think there are very few who join political parties just to become a councillor. You can recruit people to become a councillor who then join, but I would think that the tests you impose on people to find out whether they are going to be a good Liberal Democrat candidate and then councillor have to be far more rigorous if they do not exist already in the party. You do have to take some care and pay some attention to that, but that does not mean that mistakes are not still made. Robert Neill: It certainly does not matter how long people have been members of the party as far as we are concerned. It is the quality that is the most important thing. That is why we invest a degree of time in training the selectorate and making sure that there is that training advice and online material I referred to earlier, Mr Betts, that people can come to when they are forming part of a selection committee. Our guidance to finding and selecting candidates, like, by the sound of it, that of the other parties, positively encourages you to look outside simply the party membership base for potential good candidates. Q389 Bill Esterson: Moving on to that, tell me a bit about the voluntary community and faith groups that you have attracted candidates from. Olly, you mentioned community groups. Olly Buston: The face of our Future Candidates Programme at the moment is someone called Jess Phillips, who was not a member of the Labour Party she was a community activist and is a councillor. She is the face of our attempt to recruit people into the Future Candidates Programme because we are trying to demonstrate that a much wider variety of people can be councillors. One point I should add for clarity is that when people come on to the scheme, they do join the party they are taking that step. When people stand as Labour candidates, the rule is that they should have been a member of the party for a year, although there is scope to vary that locally in situations where there is a shortage of people coming forward. Steve Hitchins: I think it is very important. They are important for two reasons. First of all, they are activists already if they are in other organisations. Secondly, when you go there, it is very easy to get signposted to the people who are more likely to want to become candidates. If you just talk to someone at one of these community groups, they will say, Oh, no, no, I couldn t possibly do that, but so-and-so is very keen, and they signpost you and you do a filtering process and get to meet the people who are potential candidates much quicker and there is real engagement. There is the barrier that I was talking about earlier about making sure they are the right people for your party. There is no point trying to recruit someone whose values are diametrically opposed to the party s views; that way, all sorts of problems arise. However, it is essential that there is more councillor and local party engagement with community groups and all sorts of things like that. School governors, residents associations all these groups include people who are already activists and already engaged in public service, which is at the heart of being a councillor. Robert Neill: On a personal level, as a Member of Parliament and also as Vice Chairman, I think it is important that we encourage direct involvement by our Members of Parliament, our councillors and our group leaders with that range of groups. I have seen, both in my own area and across the party, for example, that it is not just a question of talking to what you might regard as the old, established faith groups, because we have recruited quite a lot of ethnic minority candidates from some of the new evangelical churches. Very often, there are people engaged in those churches who will have a very strong view about some of the community issues. We have sought to do the same in some parts where we have good relations, for example, with a local mosque or Hindu

164 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Ev 94 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP temple. Part of that is the responsibility of the local party themselves to be out there talking to folk in those communities so that there is not a barrier. We know that we do not want there to be a barrier and sometimes there are perceptions that we have to break down. That sort of political leadership, in the real sense, is going out there, offering the hand of friendship and saying, Let us all work together. This is all of our community. Then, as I think Steve said, you pretty swiftly discern, because none of those communities are monolithic, that some will be of your political persuasion and some will not be. You encourage those from your political persuasion: We could do with somebody like yourself coming on board. Q390 Bill Esterson: Moving on to group discipline, Steve, you made the point that they have to have the same political views, ultimately. Steve Hitchins: I said values. I think that is important Q391 Bill Esterson: What comes first, though: loyalty to the group and group discipline, or their loyalty to their electorate? Steve Hitchins: I could throw that question back at you, because you must face that issue. Hopefully, it is rarely that level of choice. The point I make to candidates and recruiting teams who are coming for recruitment training is that 80% of what is done at a local government level is determined more by this place than by the councillors themselves. A lot of the administration is about enacting what the Government of the day have decided, so there is much more about style and tone in local government than there is about party politics the way they do things, rather than what they do. All the councils have to follow a Government line if there is an Act of Parliament and they do some do it with more enthusiasm than others. That issue should not arise quite so much. Also, the contract we talk about does make clear that if a matter is a ward issue or a matter of conscience, they have to make that clear to the group and they are not bound by following that line. But generally, the best councils discuss these matters in group and reach a position of consensus where everyone feels included. If you keep forcing it down by saying, Let s have a vote. Let s decide here and now how we are going to vote on this, and not have the discussion or debate, you will find very quickly that you get a split and divided group. A group that stays together will always encourage people in. I do not think it is as big an issue as you say, but in fact they have to, of course, follow both of those. But it is rare that it happens and I would not put that high up on my list of things that you would discuss in a great deal of detail with a potential candidate. You are trying to give them an opportunity to change the lives of the people they serve as a councillor almost every single day in quite small but sometimes significant ways, and it is that sense of helping people that is the biggest incentive to becoming a councillor, in my experience. Robert Neill: I spent eight years as the chief whip of the council group where I was a member and I found that the best way was not to overdo the whipping, by and large; you reserved using the potential sanctions that you had for those occasions when it really mattered. As we all know, much of it is about making sure that there is communication and encouragement rather than waving a big stick. That really ought to be necessary only when there are real issues of principle and of key party policy that everybody would have signed up to. I am sure in all groups of all three parties here the decisions are taken on a majority vote that is certainly the way Conservative group rules operate so I do not think there is the same impediment in reality to the perception. A bit of common sense is my advice as to how you deal with it. Olly Buston: I tend to agree with my colleagues on the panel. People get involved because they want to change their communities and improve the lives of people in those communities. In many ways, the priority of the Labour Party at the moment in opposition nationally is to help to facilitate that kind of work on the ground in local communities, and to demonstrate that, even in opposition nationally, we are able to make a change and improve people s lives locally. People stand and vote on a party platform; people expect that, really. As Steve was saying, there is scope for flexibility on ward issues, issues of conscience and so on. As my colleagues are saying, I do not think it is the biggest issue that we face. Q392 Bill Esterson: Moving on briefly to training, one council leader told us that training stops the day you are elected. Is that true? What sort of training goes on in your parties? Steve Hitchins: What is true is that the demands on a councillor s time increase enormously once they are elected, so the amount of time that they can and will allocate to training is much tighter and more limited. Most councils do quite a lot of extensive training immediately when people are elected through the induction programme. There is some mandatory training for licensing and planning, which all councillors have to do even if they are not on the committees, which is very important. Also, the councillors themselves continue to have away days and other sessions. We do a lot of training through the Association of Liberal Democrat Councillors. We do a lot of training at conferences regional as well as federal and we also send people out to train councillors around the country. Some of that is political, some of it is about recruiting and some of it is about campaigning. But, generally, we have a lot of other ways we now do a lot of online training and there are a lot more opportunities for councillors. I could not possibly comment about that statement, but it might be provocative to say that, and it does reflect the amount of pressure on a councillor s time that they probably feel that they do not do as much as they ought to. Olly Buston: There is a lot of training out there and a lot of training going on, done by a lot of different people in a lot of different places, whether it is the parties, the councils themselves or the LGA. There is a lot of it out there. There are training programmes for every stage of being a councillor, from Do you want to stand? Do you want to be selected? all the way up to the sort of thing the LGA is doing with its

165 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP Next Generation training, which is about training for leadership positions. It is out there. From the Labour Party s point of view, we could do an awful lot more, particularly in terms of identifying people s particular needs and co-ordinating how people access all that diversity of training and signposting and flagging appropriate things for people. Maybe it is a bit confusing and people are not doing the specific things that would be most helpful to them. One thing that we are doing to try to address that particular challenge is piloting a councillor diploma in the north-west region, which is about just that: a more tailored, co-ordinated approach that builds from the individual outwards. Hopefully, we can do some good work there and roll that out across the country. Robert Neill: We give quite a lot of training, both through some of the work on the back of Be a Councillor but also through the Conservative Councillors Association, because that is where you have elected members. We do training on a raft of things, from specific policy issues through to various community campaigning and communication techniques, public speaking and open policy seminars, where you can come and meet a Minister or Front- Bencher, or one of the party officials to discuss things. By the sound of it, the techniques are very similar across all three parties. It is important. It comes back to the point I was making at the very beginning: it is in the party s interest to make sure it has councillors who perform, because they are going to be more likely to be re-elected at the end of the day and they will also have done a better job for their communities in the process. Q393 Heather Wheeler: I will use a phrase that I am sure will send dread into all of you. Is it fair to describe some councillors as bed blockers? What do you do about councillors sitting in safe seats who just do the bare minimum? Robert Neill: Let me put it from our point of view. Within our process, there are two things. First, there is the agreement that has now been in place since November last year. Not keeping to the agreement is, as I gather from other parties, something that can be taken into account by the selection committee. The second point is we have a system whereby although sitting councillors are entitled to be automatically considered for re-election by their own ward or county council division, they do not have an automatic right of unchallenged re-adoption. It is always open to the branch committee or executive to say, Yes, we would like to consider other candidates as well as our sitting councillors. They are kept up to the mark from that point of view. It is part of the job of the leader and the chief whip sometimes to make sure that you have words with those who are under-performing. We all know that there are informal systems within local parties where that message, if it is persistent, gets out. When we draw up the panel of approved candidates for any council area, as well as having the party chairman and relevant associations there, we also have the group leader and another representative of the Conservative group. We make sure there is a proper input that can, when appropriate, feed that back. In reality, that sort of message can get through. There are other reasons for bed blocking that are more of an issue. Dare I say it, one of those may be a perverse consequence of the way the allowance system works. Maybe we need to have a look at the way that operates. Sometimes, if somebody has retired, the allowance is a very useful sum. It was intended for the best of reasons to make sure that people are not out of pocket but then it becomes something different. Are there ways in which we can address that? I do not think you can do it in monetary terms. I have found, for example, that you can make more use of the positions of honorary aldermen to give some sense of recognition those types of things do make people feel that they are not just departing into nothing. Are there other things you can encourage them to do, albeit on an unremunerated basis, within the community? It is inevitable that there are a number of reasons that give rise to bed blocking; I do not think it is simply a question of under-performance sometimes. Steve Hitchins: There is certainly an element of that it happens. However, it is a mistake to think that just because a councillor does their job differently after 16 years from how they did it when they were first elected, they suddenly become different or not worth the job, so I would guard against that. I would not go down the road of term limits; I think that would be a mistake. Having said that, in 2009, we adopted an identical approval and selection process whether you are a sitting councillor or not they are broad-brush rules. Every sitting councillor has to be re-approved and has to go through the selection process whether they have been a councillor for six months or 16 years; there is no difference. Inevitably, of course, a sitting councillor is probably, if unintentionally, given a slightly easier ride than a new boy or girl, but we have tried to prevent that. The contracts are increasingly being used as a tool in re-selection: You signed this contract four years ago. You said when you signed this that you would be doing A, B, C, D and E. If we look at your record and the practice we try to adopt is that a report from the group leader and the chief whip goes to the selection panel for every councillor who comes back for re-selection or re-approval your group leader has said you have not D or E on this list. What do you say about that? You give them a chance to talk about that. We hope that that is encouraging a little more engagement by the councillor over their period of office. Q394 Heather Wheeler: Steve, forgive me, but we are terribly short of time. Olly, do you want to come in? Olly Buston: I have three quick points. One is that age and ability are not always connected. The second point is that local councillors are not automatically re-selected; they need to go through a process. The third point links to the councillor contracts that we are rolling out, which we hope will drive a culture change throughout the party and allow a carrot and stick approach. We will be able to identify training needs

166 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Ev 96 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP and areas where we can provide support to, we hope, improve performance, but ultimately, as Steve was saying, they are a tool that can be used in re-selection processes if people are not doing the job properly. Chair: Thank you all very much for coming this afternoon, spending so much time with us, and answering such a range of questions. Examination of Witness Witness: Brandon Lewis MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, gave evidence. Q395 Chair: Minister, thank you very much for coming this afternoon to our inquiry into Councillors and the Community. You are most welcome to your first appearance before the Select Committee I am sure it will not be the last. We will probably be talking to you about fire issues in the not too distant future, so something completely different. Just to begin with, one of the issues that has come up in the inquiry from councillors who have given evidence is the fact that they come into local government to make a difference. Clearly, how local government operates and is likely to operate in the future is a very important matter for them. Could you say what your vision is for local government and the role councillors can play in it? How do you see it changing over the next 10 years, if that is not too big an ask for the first question you are going to have to deal with? Brandon Lewis: My historical thoughts, my current thoughts and the next 10-year programme okay. Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here this afternoon, particularly under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, I have to say that, because, from memory, you chaired my first ever Westminster Hall debate as well, so it seems very fitting that my first Select Committee is under your chairmanship. I come to this from the point that, having been a councillor and having been through the situation where I have known colleagues who are frustrated because they cannot do things, or sometimes feel that they have limited power, what we should be doing is making sure that councils and councillors have a real purpose and opportunities to do things, and for them to feel that they are part of their community and, more importantly, for their community to feel that councillors are representing not the council but the community. That is why localism and moving power down to councillors is so important. But it is not just about power; it is also about getting the message through that councillors can have a real purpose. We have councillors who are committee-based and councillors who are cabinet-based. Whichever it is whether you are a back-bencher or an executive member of an authority there is an opportunity to do something good for your community. Whether that is something very, very small and in my experience the pot hole at the end of the street can be the most important thing you can do or something very big in changing the whole feel of a town or a community, there is an equally important part to play. That is about us incentivising and motivating people locally to get involved, and to see that they can make a difference and be part of that. With the new powers, which I am sure we will come on to, those opportunities are there. That is where we are currently. It is potentially quite dangerous to start getting too far down the line but, if anything, over the next 10 years I would like to see more and more people from more and more backgrounds getting involved and wanting to be part of that, because they want not just to represent their community, but to believe they can be part of it and make a difference for its betterment. Q396 Chair: In terms of your personal experience, what motivated you to become a councillor? Many of us on the Committee were councillors as well. Were there things that you felt you were not able to do, or barriers in the way that might put other people off from becoming a councillor, that you can now learn from and, hopefully, use to influence events in your new role? Brandon Lewis: I became a councillor in 1998, so things have moved on a little bit from then. When I first became a councillor we were in opposition. I was on a council where there were about eight in my group and more than 20 in the leading group, so in that sense we were not in control of the executive side of the council. There was a frustration there, because there was a view that you had a limited ability as a backbencher in a small opposition party. However, it did not stop you being able just to represent the views of your small ward, get on the council and make your voice loud and clear. One of the things I have learned is, whether as an individual or as an authority, if you are loud enough and smart enough, you can punch way above your weight in terms of getting things done. That is just about understanding what opportunities are there and taking advantage of them. What I have seen from when I was a councillor, and from when I talk to councillors now, is that there is a job to do for all of us to help councillors and people who are interested in being councillors understand that they can do things, particularly now we have opportunities with communities right to challenge and right to bid. Even if you are a back-bencher in a small district authority, even in opposition, you can go and be an absolute champion for your community and your ward, and for the people in that area to get involved and work that way. You can make a real difference. There is probably still a job for us to do in making people more aware of what those opportunities are and how they can make a difference. Q397 David Heyes: You have just listed some of the good reasons why it is a worthwhile thing to undertake, and you said that we need to do more. We have heard some persuasive evidence that one of the

167 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP barriers to people becoming councillors is just a sheer lack of understanding of what local government is, what councils are and how to become a councillor. What role should central Government be playing in promoting local democracy? What do you do to promote local democracy? Brandon Lewis: That becomes complicated in the sense that there are various layers. I know that political parties will be trying to recruit people locally and, in doing that, they will be talking to them about why they want to be councillors and going out and looking to talk people into being councillors. I know that when I was a council leader, if we met people in the community who were doing good things and we thought would enjoy it, we would talk to them about wanting to be involved. In terms of government, there is a whole range of things. First, from central Government s point of view, there is a fine line between going in heavy-handed to try to tell local government how to do these things and promoting local government. I think the Localism Act, the general power of competence and some of the things I have just outlined that are giving these powers locally play a large part in why it becomes more important and more useful to be involved locally. We all, as politicians, then have a job at whatever level, whether it is at council level or parliamentary level, to promote why local councils matter, how they can make a difference locally, and that it is a rewarding and important job to do for your community, and therefore get more people motivated to do it in the first place. Q398 David Heyes: Having said that, why did the Government repeal the duty to promote democracy? Surely that is a key activity of councils. Brandon Lewis: It was not in the first place. For me, that comes back to the line between the Government directing local government about what to do. If we are going to have localism, let local authorities develop what they think is right for their area and then promote it. Good local authorities and good councils would want to do that. Q399 James Morris: There is a slight complication that localism, as defined by the Government, does not necessarily mean local government. As you have said, the landscape has become complicated. We have police and crime commissioner elections coming along; we have an education policy that is seeking to take LEA control away from education; and the Localism Bill has provisions for referendums on council tax increases and so on. A lot of that strand of localism is bypassing local authorities and local councillors. In that context, what role do you think local councillors have to play in that complicated landscape we have? Brandon Lewis: That is localism in its truest sense in the sense that it is decentralising power. It is not just about moving power from central Government to metropolitan, unitary, county, district or parish; it is about having that tier all the way through across areas. If the most local place for power to be is in the neighbourhood parish, that is where it should be. If the most localised place for it to be is in the school, whether that is an academy driving itself, that is what that means. If we are starting to say everything has to go through a local authority whether it is the police commissioner, fire and rescue in some areas, or education we are coming away from what decentralisation is about. Q400 James Morris: Is one of the potential downsides not that if I am someone aspiring to be a councillor but I look at the landscape and think, It is confusing. It looks as though the Government want to take power away from me and there is a lot more direct, democratic intervention, it creates confusion in people s minds about what their role will be as a councillor in the 21st century, and what they do in relation to police and crime commissioners, for example? Brandon Lewis: If people are interested in being involved in education, they will tend to move towards wanting to be a school governor and get involved in a school. If they are interested in being involved in police commissioning, they might even be running for police commissioner this year. In that sense, it gives people the ability to specialise in a particular area that suits them and that is good for them. As people get to learn more about what they can do, whether as a councillor or a school governor, or whatever their interest happens to be, that is likely to be where they will start to move. For me, in terms of local government I do not want to stray too much into the Home Office s remit and police commissioners being local government, that is about, as I have said already, making people as aware as we can about moving as much power as we can locally and decentralising, so that there is more incentive for people to want to be involved and see that they can make a difference in shaping and forming their community. Q401 James Morris: You cited the community right to challenge provisions in the Localism Act as an opportunity for local councillors to get involved. Do you think that that implies that there will be a different kind of mindset or skill set that councillors will need to be able to take the opportunities that those provisions present? Certain local authorities say that the community right to challenge is something they want nothing to do with because it is about trying to break up the monopoly of local government. Should councillors have a role in facilitating some of those provisions and not be afraid to champion them? Brandon Lewis: Yes, is the short answer. Mr Morris, I saw your article published today that outlines that perfectly, in the sense that on a range of areas this being one of them it is the people and the authorities that grasp an opportunity and run with it, to put it in the colloquial sense, that will gain the most. There will be areas that will do this more, and I would love to see more and more councils making more and more people aware. One of the interesting things will be, particularly if you have a cabinet structure in a district council, for example and you can have back-benchers who can be a bit frustrated because they are not in the cabinet, which makes all the decisions that this is an area

168 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Ev 98 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 29 October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP where they can really go back to representing their community. That was what I was alluding to in my opening remarks: with that right to challenge and that right to be getting involved with their community in their local neighbourhood and really making a difference, they may well make themselves a bit of a nuisance to the executive. That kind of tension may not necessarily be unhealthy. It is about making them more aware and making local authorities understand what those opportunities are and welcoming them rather than being resistant to them. Q402 James Morris: Is that not quite a radically different role for a local councillor in the future? If you can imagine a world where community right to challenge really means something, that is quite a radical change in the role of the councillor. Do you think that is a good thing? Brandon Lewis: I would almost answer your question with a question: is it a radical change in what the role of a councillor should be, or is it a radical change in what councillors do, as opposed to what has been done in the past? There are many councillors across the country who do brilliant work, and there are some councillors who get frustrated because they are on the back bench and they feel they cannot do very much, or just have not been able to do very much, for whatever reason. This is giving them an opportunity. It is really giving them a chance to represent their community, which is arguably at the core of what a councillor should be there for. That also has a knock-on effect: as more and more people realise what those opportunities are and what they can do with it, we should, hopefully, start to see more and more people wanting to do it from a wider range of backgrounds and certainly we should be persuading them to do so. In that sense, yes, I think it will be a change, but hopefully for the better and a change that, to an extent, we should have seen a long time ago in people wanting to get involved and make a difference for their community. Q403 Chair: Do you understand that some councillors might be a little frustrated? They get elected with the view that they are going to serve their community and have difficult decisions to make, and they will conscientiously try to look, for example, at refuse collection. After a lot of consideration, they come to the view that alternate weekly collection is the best way forward in their area and suddenly they get the benefit of guided localism and the Secretary of State saying, You do not know anything about your areas. I know best. Weekly collections for everybody, please. Then, a few months later, they find that they are trying to struggle with all these difficult planning applications and they are now told they might be the beneficiaries of muscular localism and their planning powers might be taken off them if they do not behave in a certain way. Do you not think that is rather discouraging for councillors? Brandon Lewis: You touched on waste collection and, of course, people can choose to do what they want. The Department might well say, We think this is a particularly good way and we will help facilitate that if you want to go down that road. With planning, to be fair, the Secretary of State made it very clear on the Floor of the House that that would apply only if there was a council in a particularly unique position of poor performance the phrase muscular localism is no doubt going to go down in history now. But it is the job of Government to lay out a framework and sometimes give a journey of travel outline, but to let local councils get on with it. Whether it is waste or even the new scheme of council tax benefit localisation, it is not compulsory; it is there if you want to do it. Q404 Chair: But with a 100 million incentive to change your system in a certain way right at the last minute. We will not go into that necessarily today, although we might come back to it at a future inquiry. Brandon Lewis: I am sure we will have a conversation about that at some stage. Q405 Mark Pawsey: Minister, you will know as well as anyone that only 4% of councillors come from BME communities, that only 30% are women and that the average age has increased in the past few years from 55 to 60. Given what you said about handing powers down to local communities, is that an issue that should be left to local people, local communities and local political parties, or is it the role of the Government to do something about it? Brandon Lewis: I do not think it is the role of Government to go in heavy-handed and to regulate, force and make it happen. I do think it is the role of Government to set that direction of travel and talk about it publicly and openly, and for all of us, as politicians, particularly if we have been through local government as well, to highlight that the best way to represent a community is to have a good mix of people. I was very, very fortunate. When I became leader of the council that I was on, I had a pretty fair mix. I might be proved wrong on the actual numbers, but I had roughly 50:50 men and women, give or take. I had the youngest councillor in the country at the time. I had the first 18-year-old, who was the youngest in the country, up to people in their 70s and a pretty good spread all the way through. They were also from different backgrounds as well different types of profession and experience. I have always had the view that what made that group a success I appreciate that I am slightly biased and work well as a team was having a really good mix of people from all different parts of the community who could come together. I do think that political groups on local authorities have a really important job to do: to look at their community, as we are doing in Parliament, and say, Are we representative of our community and what can we do to make sure we are going out and talking to people who should be involved in representing their part of the community, adding to our team and helping us make the community better? I do not think it is for central Government to go in and make it happen, because you end up with targets and top-down structures that are painful and create tension. We should be encouraging people locally to do it. Q406 Mark Pawsey: Can the Government do anything to encourage it to happen other than simply

169 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP talking about it? Could it insist on shortlists, for example, of different people from different backgrounds and communities? Brandon Lewis: It is difficult for the Government to go in and force something to happen, and go much beyond talking, persuading and encouraging, because you end up with top-down targets that, in themselves, create tensions, whether it is particular types of shortlists or anything like that. It needs to be down to the local communities. Groups on councils should be looking to encourage people in their communities to come forward and represent their community. Q407 Mark Pawsey: Are there any other ways in which Government can encourage people to engage with the local democratic process? Brandon Lewis: One of the things that local councils can be doing is looking at themselves and how they function and run, and asking whether that is conducive to allowing people to be involved. You mentioned the age range of people. One of the problems for people of working age is that councils that meet during the day can be very, very difficult. I know employers will give people time off, but there is a limit to what you can do. Smaller councils will often meet in the evenings and look at their membership and try to arrange their meetings and the way the council works so that people from different backgrounds may be more involved. Again, that has to be locally driven, because every councillor in every community will have a different area to represent and therefore slightly different needs. Q408 Simon Danczuk: Do you agree with the leader of Hertfordshire County Council that allowances are high enough to offend the public but not high enough to encourage any sane person to give up their career and earning capacity to take the role on? Brandon Lewis: Some councils are different from others, I suspect. I saw a press release last week about a council I think it was Cornwall that was talking about raising its allowances by 20%. In the current climate, that is a very unusual decision to be looking to take. Councils should be looking quite carefully at that, particularly at a time when every household is squeezed. If we are looking at councils to play their part and then they put up allowances, there is a question mark. The issue of allowances has always been a difficult one. When I first became a councillor it was in the times when you did not get allowances. I think it was 13 for a meeting, if you claimed it after a certain time or something like that. It has changed dramatically in that time. Again, different areas will have different needs; there will be different commitments from councillors depending on what level they work at and what type of authority they are in. That needs to be driven by what is right locally and, if people get carried away, the democratic process is a pretty powerful process to be aware of. Q409 Simon Danczuk: We had councillors here last week and the annual allowance was about 2,400. That is derisory, is it not? It is abysmal. Brandon Lewis: Again, that is up to the independent panel locally. Great Yarmouth, my council, is one of the lowest in the country, to be fair. That local authority with its independent panel can look at that, and take a view on how it works and on whether that is appropriate for that size authority in that area. That is a matter for it to look at locally to get a figure that it thinks is a fair representation of what people are doing. There is a difference between that and a salaried job; I personally do not think it should be salaried. Q410 Simon Danczuk: I am worried that you are not matching your rhetoric, you see, because you said earlier that you were keen to get people from all different backgrounds involved, but if you are the working poor in this country, the chances are that you would not be able to be a councillor. You might be working overtime to get money into the household. You would not be able to afford child care costs to cover political meetings, would you? You might be in insecure employment. You could not survive on 2,400. On the one hand, your rhetoric is about involving a wider, broader spectrum of people, but, on the other hand, you are not prepared to put your money where your mouth is and pay these people, or give them a decent amount of money to be able to live off. Brandon Lewis: It is not my money to give them; it is the taxpayers money and the residents money. That is why I come back to the fact that it is for the people in that area. I am not saying whether 2,500 is too little or whether 25,000 is too much. My point is that it is for that local authority, with its independent panel, to look at what is right to be able to allow people to come in and do that job and represent their community with the pressures and the time involved of the local authority. To go beyond that, you are tempting me into centralising it again, and I think it should be something that is done locally. Q411 Simon Danczuk: So you do not see any correlation between the size of allowances that are offered and the kind of people who come forward for election as councillors. Brandon Lewis: I have no doubt at all that there could be a correlation between how much somebody is paid in an allowance whether it is an allowance to be a councillor, or a special allowance to be a senior member of an executive and whether people come forward. What I am saying is that I do not think it is for central Government to decide what allowance should be set for a particular district, county, unitary or other council. It is for them, with their independent panels, to work that out and to come up with a figure that works correctly for them and represents their community properly. Q412 Simon Danczuk: Why not have a national system an independent body to help set it? For example, IPSA is now talking about setting our MPs allowances. There will not be a vote on it; it will be set by IPSA. The increase will be determined by IPSA. Why not have the same system for local councillors?

170 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Ev 100 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 29 October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP Brandon Lewis: Again, you are tempting me into centralising when I believe in localising and decentralisation. Q413 Simon Danczuk: I am just asking you for the argument as to why you would not do that. Brandon Lewis: Because that would be to move away from localisation and decentralising power. I think we should trust local authorities to come up with the right schemes with their independent panels, and I do not think it is for central Government to do it. Equally, if central Government were to go out to all of the district councils across the country and come up with a scheme, by definition they would be likely to be tempted into using one-size-fits-all, and I do not think that works. The needs you have would be different in a very small district authority with a turnover of a few million pounds sometimes you have parishes that are bigger than that compared with big metropolitan authorities, unitaries and counties. It is right that in different parts of the country, and in different areas within it, those local panels, with the independent people involved, get to choose what they think is right for their communities. If they are not getting the right people coming forward, again it is for the local community and the local council to look at it and ask: Have we got this figure right? Is it right in terms of what it recompenses people for the time they are giving up? and take a view on that. But I personally do not think it is for central Government to go in and start dictating that. Q414 Simon Danczuk: But when Cornwall, as you were saying earlier, decides to increase allowances by 20%, it gets criticised by the local government Minister, which is what you have just done. On the one hand, you are saying it is for local decision makers Brandon Lewis: Absolutely, yes. Q415 Simon Danczuk: But then you criticise them. Brandon Lewis: There is a difference, because I am not the one who is going to go in and tell them whether they can do it or not. I am just saying I think it is a very, very odd decision to make in an economic climate like this, and the ballot box generally tends to do a pretty good job of dealing with those situations. But if Cornwall feels it are doing the right thing and the people of Cornwall think that is the right thing to do, that is fine for Cornwall. Q416 Chair: Just let me pick two points up very briefly. First of all, if a local authority wanted to exercise its decision making in the same way that we in Parliament have chosen to with regard to our pay in other words, to appoint an independent body and allow the decision to be made by that body; not simply advice, but the decision should councils be allowed to do that? Brandon Lewis: At the moment, they have to have an independent body, but you are right that it does come back to the council to sign it off. I do not hold a particularly strong view on that, so I will have a think about it and come back to you. 1 To an extent, they 1 See ev 186 can do that, because all they have got to do is just accept what the independent body says. Q417 Chair: But we have been here in Parliament with that before, have we not? We have had that situation and it is never the right time to accept and that is what council leaders have told us here. I just wonder whether there is a way, just as we have now simply said to IPSA, You do it; we are not going to vote on it, that a council would be allowed to be in the same position if it wanted to be. Brandon Lewis: That is something that is worth us having a look at, yes. Q418 Chair: Okay. Secondly, something we heard earlier is that a problem is that what might be a reasonable allowance for someone who is retired and keeps their income they might have their private pension as well as their state pension, so the allowance is a top-up is very different, if it is the same amount, than for someone who has lost a couple of days work and loses more in pay than they gain in the allowance. Would it be possible to have a look at something like a loss of earnings, which used to exist? The electorate might be more understanding of someone not losing out on their income because they are spending time on council work, but people not gaining it if they do not lose the income in the first place? Brandon Lewis: Again, at the moment, that is something for local panels to have a look at. The problem is that if a local council says 2,500 is the allowance, I am not sure that it is right that somebody should get more or less than that. Putting aside whether they get special responsibility allowances, if they are a back bencher and that is what they get, whether they are retired or not does not change the level of responsibility they have got for being a councillor. When we start talking about if they have to give up work to attend council meetings, it comes down to why I say that councils should look carefully at how they structure their meetings to make sure the people in the community can be involved. But you do make a fair point, which I will have a look at, in terms of how that is structured. That is an interesting point and I will have a look at that. Q419 Chair: Maybe as an alternative, instead of an allowance for some people, they could have a loss of earnings. Would you be prepared to have a look at that and give us some indication? Brandon Lewis: I will come back to you on that, if you do not mind. 2 Q420 Bill Esterson: We had a witness who told us that the jobcentre told her not to put the fact she was a councillor on her CV, and other councillors have told us that they were turned down for jobs because they were councillors. Do you think that is right? Should there be legislation to prevent discrimination against people for being councillors, in terms of employment? Brandon Lewis: I have not heard that, so I am not going to comment on specific cases, but it is very 2 See ev 186

171 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP disappointing. If anybody is discriminated against for any reason, it is wrong anyway. Q421 Bill Esterson: Should there be legislation if that is happening? Brandon Lewis: I have not seen any specific cases. I do not doubt you have got some examples. If you have a specific example, I would be very happy to have a look at it and see what was behind it before I start commenting in a broader sense on any specific issues. Q422 Bill Esterson: On the other side of what the Chair was just asking you about people being compensated for time off work, what about compensating small businesses for losing people, in particular? Bigger businesses can usually manage if someone is not there for a few hours, but for smaller businesses, in particular, should there be compensation for councillors and the contribution they are making? Brandon Lewis: That is where this whole issue becomes very complicated and very difficult, because it becomes open-ended both financially and in terms of how you structure. It makes it, again, very difficult even if you wanted, which I do not, to have a central system, because in every different place, every business and every person could make a case with very different numbers and very different figures. Q423 Bill Esterson: But equally, that particular issue could not be dealt with by an independent panel either. Brandon Lewis: No, but as I say, that is what makes it much more complicated and what makes the whole thing very difficult. But equally, again, it does come back to why I think it is important that local authorities look at who their members are and work out, as far as they can, a system for having their meetings to facilitate members being able to play a full and active role in that council. Q424 Bill Esterson: And you would look at the possibility of compensating businesses. Brandon Lewis: I have never looked at the possibility of compensating businesses. What I would much rather councils do, which would be far more costeffective and time-effective, is look at how they can run their meetings so that councillors involved in that council can be part of it. For example, when I was a council leader, our council meetings were in the evenings to enable people to be at those meetings rather than during the day. Q425 Bill Esterson: There is a lot more to being a councillor than just going to meetings though. Brandon Lewis: Absolutely, yes, but I do not see being a councillor as a full-time job. Q426 Chair: We have had this discussion with quite a lot of people and the complication is of having meetings at times that suit everyone, because someone who is working might appreciate an evening meeting, apart from the fact there are maybe still community organisations that want to see them during the day; however, someone who has children might want daytime meetings so they do not have extra child care to pay for. It is not easy. Brandon Lewis: Yes. There are councils that will look at that and work out how they structure their meetings to try to suit the members they have. I know there are councils that have certain committees that will meet during the day, if it suits the members on those committees. They will structure it that way and I think that is a very sensible way of doing it. Q427 Chair: Does that not sometimes just suit the councillors who are there, but discourage other people from becoming councillors who might not be suited to those particular times? Brandon Lewis: That again comes back to why it is important that the local councils have the power to work out locally what is right for them, their members and their community, rather than having us try to do that centrally. Whatever you come up with, a one-size-fits-all approach does not work. It is very difficult even within one authority, as you have just outlined, let alone across the country with lots of different types of authorities. Q428 Heather Wheeler: We have had some interesting conversations about councillors who are bed blockers and those who are incompetent. Do you think there is any sort of role for the Government to ensure that councillors do a competent job? Brandon Lewis: It is difficult for central Government to take a view on what every individual councillor is doing on every council. We have to trust local authorities and the councillors on those authorities to work out what is right for them, and local political parties and other parties to work out what is right for them. If people are not good enough, there are opportunities there, whether it is with some of the schemes the LGA or the NALC run, to give people training. Many local authorities themselves will run training to help councillors to improve their skill set and do their job better, and that is very important. But for central Government to get involved in that would be quite difficult and potentially quite dangerous. Q429 Heather Wheeler: That is interesting. As a CLG Minister, do you think that the DCLG should put out an agreed set of performance standards for councillors across the country? Does the Department have any stats or evidence about whether the quality of councillors is going up or down? Brandon Lewis: The problem with judging that is about who is making the judgment call on whether somebody is effective or not. I am a passionate believer in the ballot box. For all the criticism some people can occasionally give it, I think that generally the ballot box will get it right when deciding whether somebody is fit to be a councillor or not. We should deal with that at the ballot box and trust the good people of the electorate to deal with it. For us in central Government to start asking local authorities to make a judgment call and feed back to us would not only put another burden on local authorities, which I think they could well do without and for which they probably would not thank us, but would start to move away from what the ballot box is about.

172 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :05] Job: Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_ HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml Ev 102 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 29 October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP Q430 Heather Wheeler: The final thing is completely different, really. We have heard evidence from councillors about the tsunami of s, casework and what have you that they have to take on. Do you think it is appropriate that councillors should have a paid assistant to help with their casework? Brandon Lewis: Again, that is up to local authorities. If they feel that is something that is right for them and they can afford to do it, it is a judgment call for the local authority, but it sounds like a very expensive route to go down to me. Q431 Mark Pawsey: Minister, we have heard evidence that some of the best recruits as new local councillors are people who started off as community activists. Community activists start off at the most local level and the most local level is parish councils. I know the Government are doing some work on encouraging town and parish councils to set up. What is the progress there? Brandon Lewis: We are moving towards making sure we make it easier. We have developed a consultation paper setting out the options for making it easier to set up these councils where they do not currently exist. This includes looking at how new neighbourhood forums can come together easily and straightforwardly, and we plan to publish that consultation very soon. Q432 Mark Pawsey: Is there any work the Department can do to encourage community activists to make the transition towards becoming councillors? Brandon Lewis: As we were saying earlier, it is for all of us to be talking up the opportunities so that people want to be part of it, and it is about making sure we are creating those opportunities and moving that power locally so that people can see that if they get involved, they can make a difference for their community and be an important part of it. Q433 Mark Pawsey: In terms of encouraging people to take up the role of councillor, do you think that is facilitated by single-member wards or multi-member wards? In a multi-member ward, can somebody hide and let the other guys get on with it, or is it better to encourage people to come forward as councillors in a single-member ward where their work is much more visible? Brandon Lewis: I think that it is for those local authorities to take a view on what is right for them they can do that. I know there are some local authorities that are looking at whether they want to change their set-up from three to two or to one, as it were and that is a matter for them to work through with the boundary commission. Q434 Mark Pawsey: But have you got a view about which model would be more attractive to a new potential recruit coming forward as a councillor? Brandon Lewis: No. I think that is a matter for the local area and, again, it is down to the local community to work out what is right for them. Q435 Mark Pawsey: I wonder if I might ask you as well about the different forms of local government. Brandon Lewis: You are tempting me into reorganising local government from the top, which I am going to resist. Q436 Mark Pawsey: Well that is the next one, Minister, because our structure of local government is very confusing for somebody sitting outside it who is a community activist who wants to get involved in their local community it is pretty complicated. Some areas are two-tier. We have unitaries we have some massive unitaries with more than 120 members on them and we have metropolitans. Does the system of local government militate against somebody who has got a genuine local interest coming forward as a councillor? Brandon Lewis: It can be a complicated system. We have got parishes that are bigger than some districts. But, to my mind, that is kind of the beauty of it, because what has happened over the years it is still happening is those local communities is that those local areas and councils, at whatever level, have evolved and developed to be what their community is best served by. It will continue to evolve that way. That is one of the beauties of our system it can move and evolve, rather than being forced and directed. Q437 Mark Pawsey: But it is confusing for somebody who moves around the country from one place to another. Is there anything that the Department can do to facilitate understanding of the structures of local government? Would that, in itself, encourage more people to come forward as councillors? Brandon Lewis: That is also, I would argue, the temptation and the challenge as you move around the country you can go from one type of authority to another and try something different. All of us as politicians and certainly in government have to make sure that we are clear about the what value and importance a local councillor can have in their community, why that matters, what they can do and what their powers are, so that people want to be part of it. Whether that community is one that is run primarily locally by a parish council with a district and a county or a unitary or a metropolitan is irrelevant. If you want to get involved and do something for your community, get involved with whatever that structure is where you are. Q438 Chair: The Government will not be implementing Lord Heseltine s report, then. Brandon Lewis: You tempt me into commenting on something that is not yet published. I will wait and read the report before I comment in too much detail on that one, but we have been clear about our position on unitary authorities. Chair: Minister, thank you very much indeed for coming and answering our questions this afternoon. Brandon Lewis: Thank you.

173 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 103 Written evidence Written evidence from the Department for Communities and Local Government (CC 00) Your Committee has called for evidence to support its enquiry into the role councillors play in their communities. Our country has a long and strong tradition of people serving their community as elected councillors. This ranges from parish councillors in our smallest villages to city councillors who are at the heart of the proud civic traditions of the country s great cities. In every case councillors being the democratic elected representatives of their communities, are uniquely placed to contribute to their communities wellbeing. In short, being a councillor is an embodiment of community service and volunteering, which must be the backdrop to any consideration of councillors allowances. Councillors are fundamentally volunteers; they should not become de facto salaried staff. We do not agree with the proposals on allowances made by the Councillors Commission under the last Administration. As a former councillor myself, I ve seen first hand the role councillors play in the community. It takes a particular sort of person to become a councillor. You don t go into it for the fame or the fortune but because you care about the area you live in and believe it is possible to make things better for the people you represent. Being a councillor isn t for the fainthearted. You have to put in the hours, do the hard graft for your community. But it also brings its own reward. Every councillor I know has a story to tell about, this person helped back onto their feet or, that community that is beginning to thrive. Councillors I know still subscribe to a notion as relevant today as ever that politics can make a difference. And because they have that belief, that passion, that can do attitude, they do make a difference. No-one knows their neighbourhoods better, no-one has a better grasp of the issues on the doorstep and noone is in a better position to do something about it. Our reforms are designed to give the community spirited among us the best possible chance of improving their areas. With our commitment to localism, we are clear that it is communities themselves, particularly the many voluntary organisations within them, including political parties, who are necessarily at the forefront of encouraging and supporting people to put themselves forward as candidates for election. Equally, it is to their communities and councils that elected councillors rightly look for support. In addition, the local government sector, through for example the Local Government Association (LGA), has a part to play in helping elected members to develop their expertise and capacity to fulfil their role. It is through its decisions and the legislation that Parliament enacts, that Government creates opportunities for councillors and the communities they represent to become more empowered, enabling local people materially to shape their own day to day lives localism in action. Particular measures which we are taking that create such opportunities and hence impact on the role of councillors include: the introduction of neighbourhood planning, enabling communities to come together to shape the development and growth of their local area through the production of a neighbourhood development plan or neighbourhood development order; the re-introduction of the committee system through the Localism Act which allows councils to return to this form of governance if they wish; a system which allows for greater engagement of all councillors in decision-making, rather than restricting major decision-making to frontbench councillors; the right to build, which gives local communities new powers to create the buildings they want without using the normal planning application process; the community right to challenge under which community groups, in which local councillors can play a part, will be able to bid to run local authority services; the community right to bid, which will give communities a right to nominate a building or other land which is of importance to their community s social well-being or social interests (which include cultural, sporting or recreational interests), for listing as an asset of community value; when a listed asset is to be sold, local community groups will have a fairer chance to make a bid to buy it on the open market; the abolition of the Standards Board regime that potentially weakened the effectiveness of local councillors by giving rise to so many petty, vexatious allegations; legislating on predetermination to allow councillors to speak out more freely for their communities on important issues such as planning proposals affecting the locality; and issuing a Code of Recommended Practice for Local Authorities on Data Transparency that has led to councils throwing open its doors to the public, increasing the accountability, and hence effectiveness, of local councillors. Following the Open Public Services White Paper, we will be consulting on how to make it easier to set up town and parish councils and we are working with the LGA and the National Association of Local Councils

174 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 104 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence on how such councils can become more involved in service delivery all such steps increasing the roles of councillors at the most local level. Through our commitment to localism and the range of measures we are undertaking, the Government is significantly expanding the opportunities for local councillors to serve their communities and help local people take control their lives and localities. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Councillors of all political parties and none who are taking on responsibility, making a difference, helping their local residents, every day of the week in Councils right across the country. May 2012 Written evidence from Robert Howard (CC 02) Executive Summary Section 1: The role of councillors as leaders of communities. Para 1.1 Ward councillors do not have the power to act like leaders. Section 2: Turning ward councillors into de facto leaders and mini-mayors. Para 2.1 Voters should elect two types of councillors for their local authority area. Section 3: Skills and training if you want to be a councillor. Para 3.2 Existing councillors should pay a levy to cover the cost of training courses. Section 4: What it costs to stand a good chance of becoming a councillor. Para 4.4 Standing for election as a councillor can be expensive, so local authorities should publish ward election brochures containing statements from all the candidates. Section 5: Councillors and work. Para 5.1 Being a ward councillor should not be seen as a primary occupation. Section 6: Helping councillors and personal commitments. Para 6.1 Every councillor should be able to appoint a part-time paid Assistant. Section 7: The role of communities in how councillors make decisions. Para 7.2 Ward councillors should be mini-mayors. Section 8: Final observations. Para 8.4 Councillors at their best are innovative and inspiring; at their worst, time serving and parochial. Section 9: Appendix Urban Forum workshop presentation, Local Action: communities and councillors working together, Westminster Hall, 29 June Section 10: About the person making this submission. 1. The Role of Councillors as Leaders of Communities 1.1 Councillors should be recognised for what they are de facto leaders. They have this position because they have been elected and are often the first point of contact not just for local residents, but for businesses and the media as well. The trouble is that all too few councillors have the power to act like the leaders that they are expected to be and this, in my experience, is why so many local residents and potential councillors are sceptical about what a councillor can do. This is often misinterpreted as cynicism. 1.2 In inner-city Lenton, Nottingham, where I live, people don t go around saying that our ward councillors are in it for themselves, but they do ask, why can t they get a pavement repaired or a park fence mended? Then there s the phasing of crossing lights outside the health centre, cycling on pavements or why did a local care service have to close and its work be taken over by a national charity? These are just a few examples of the things which feed local voters scepticism. The plain truth is that it takes ages to get the simplest of things done because ward councillors almost everywhere have to refer these questions to a local authority department or the lead councillor/cabinet member/portfolio holder, call them what you will, who will then have to authorise that the change/expenditure can go ahead. 1.3 These seemingly simple matters can be further complicated when a community is served by two or more councillors from different political parties who are trying to represent the same ward, or the council itself is controlled by a different political party to that of the ward councillor. Independent councillors are not above such problems.

175 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev As things stand, most individual councillors are made as good as powerless by such things and depend on the patronage of a ruling elite of councillors if they want to achieve the simplest of things in their ward. Even when you are part of such elites, as I have been in the past, your ward abilities are constrained. On too many occasions I was taken aside by the Council Leader and told to back off or stop making waves because my actions were upsetting another senior councillor or an officer who had the ear of the leader or some other councillor more powerful within the party group than me. 1.5 I suspect that most MPs know this to be true and have some experience of such things themselves. Bad enough when there are over 600 of you. Intolerable to some, like myself, when you are part of a group counted in tens rather than hundreds. I say all this because I believe the present system pretends that councillors are leaders when the actual power that they have within their wards tells us that they are, for the most part, at the mercy of others. Voters know this and is a reason why many choose not to vote. 2. Turning Ward Councillors into de facto Leaders and Mini Mayors by creating Single Member Wards 2.1 Voters should elect two types of councillors for their local authority area: 2.2 Ward councillors able to control doorstep policies, budgets, services and facilities for their own single member ward. They would also act as scrutinisers when it came to the work of the strategic councillors in the same local authority areas. What I am proposing might be described as a system of mini-mayors. Such a system would enable councillors to be innovative, able to pioneer new approaches to neighbourhood governance which other councillors may adopt or adapt to meet the needs of their ward. 2.3 Strategic councillors, elected by all the voters in a local authority area, would take the lead in strategic policies, budgets, services and facilities. Voters could choose to elect an executive mayor instead. In the recent Nottingham mayoral referendum I actively worked for the no campaign in the absence of any empowering of ward councillors. If ward councillors could become mini-mayors I would almost certainly support of the election of an executive mayor for the Greater Nottingham conurbation. 2.4 All councillors should represent single member wards because this will strengthen their role and position within the community or the cluster of communities/neighbourhoods which they represent. As a result, they are likely to become better known to more of their electorate and others whom they serve. Voters will, I believe, be more likely to engage in the political process by voting and attending meetings etc when they see that their councillor actually has the power to do things and can make decisions quickly. 2.5 Perhaps more importantly, single member wards will encourage more voters to seek election and this, of itself, will encourage and support diversity and make becoming a councillor not only easier, but a more competitive process as well. It will also make it easier for independent ward councillors to be elected. 2.6 How? Take Nottingham. At present it has 55 councillors representing 20 wards (a mix of two and three member wards), many of which are clusters of communities and neighbourhoods. Nottingham has about self defining communities, 14 of which existed in 1086 when the Domesday Book was created. If each of these communities existed as a ward in their own right, the number of voters per ward would range from c2,500 to c14,000, but I believe some of the smaller ones would want to work together and be part of one ward this was something which the communities of Dunkirk and Lenton (where I live) decided to do in 1996 when local groups and individuals came together to create the Dunkirk and Lenton Partnership Forum, which still exists in 2012, with its own paid workers. It acts as a local support service and co-ordinating body, publishing a community newspaper delivered to some 5,000 households (the next issue will be No. 50). 2.7 There will be those who say This won t work because of the disparity in the number of voters per ward, but if the role of a ward councillor relates to the community they want to serve (as 88% of councillors say they want to do), this should not be an issue, especially if you elect my proposed strategic councillors with local authority-wide powers and responsibilities. 2.8 According to a spreadsheet (summary-table-for-all-authorities-website-protected-version) published by the Local Government Boundary Commission for England, based on data collected in December 2010, the size of English wards at district, unitary and county level range from 1,776 (West Somerset) to 18,709 (Birmingham). I am convinced that many communities, probably most of them, would choose either alone or collectively to have one elected ward councillor with the powers to run local services and be, in effect, a minimayor and that this person would be their de facto leader and representative. 2.9 I believe that sense of place trumps numbers any day and democracy does itself a disservice when it puts electoral numbers before the natural geographic boundaries of any one community. 3. Skills and Training if you want to be a Councillor 3.1 It should go without saying that training courses for all would-be councillors should be easily accessible and free. The courses should cover not just council budgets, procedures, the law or the civic aspect of being a councillor etc, but also campaigning and publicity skills and these courses should be paid for by a small percentage levy on the allowances paid to all existing councillors.

176 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 106 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 3.2 If existing councillors can make voluntary contributions from their councillor allowances to their respective political parties (eg In Nottingham, Labour councillors pay a 10% levy, which amounts to over 100,000 per annum), then they can easily pay a levy to cover the cost of training courses for would-be councillors at an estimated cost of 2,000, assuming the course organisers have the free use of council premises. In Nottingham s case this would amount to a 0.2% levy on total allowances of 1,037,776 in From what I know of existing councillors, many will need training if they are to become the community leaders they should be. The present system of multi-member wards enables many councillors happily to take a back seat, doing what is asked of them and not much else. 4. What it Costs to Stand a Good Chance of becoming a Councillor, why many don t bother and a New way to Ensure Fairness 4.1 The other aspect to being a councillor which rarely gets mentioned is that of organising and funding an election campaign. If you are a member of a political party this can be made a lot easier. Your party is likely to organise campaign training, provide an election agent and funding, but I accept that this does not always happen, so prospective councillors have to fall back on themselves and, if they are lucky, a small group of active supporters. 4.2 In my experience a dedicated team of six to 10 people is enough to fight a good ward election campaign, with double this number on election day itself. The cost of a basic black and white A4 leaflet folded to A5 in Nottingham is 50 ( 95 per 1,000 such leaflets), so in a small ward like Dunkirk and Lenton, where I live, with 5,000 households, every leaflet will cost at least 240, assuming you have the skills to do your own origination. Producing and circulating a leaflet four times a year equals 960 per annum and during election year itself you have to do this monthly. Assuming you begin your campaign six months after the last election, any one candidate in a single member ward with 5,000 households should expect to spend at least 5, This is a lot of money by any measure and is, in my experience, the biggest reason why more individuals don t stand as candidates. They also know that even if they manage to get elected, they face four years of isolation on the back benches. 4.4 My solution to this problem is that the local authority should publish an election brochure containing statements from all the candidates in much the same way as political parties, trade unions and pension funds do when they send out ballot papers to their members. These would be delivered to every registered voter in the ward. In return for this service, all the candidates would be expected to contribute to the cost of printing the brochure (but not its distribution). 5. Councillors and Work 5.1 Being a ward councillor should not be seen as a career or a primary occupation. A councillor should have a wider perspective of the community (and local authority) which he or she serves. Their role should not be confused with that of local authority employees. In many ways, with cabinet style councils and executive portfolio councillors who can spend millions without reference to any committee, the role of back bench councillors is reduced to that of being little more than scrutinisers and serving out their time on area committees with few powers or direct responsibilities, apart from handing out what small discretionary amounts of money they have. 5.2 I know of councillors who have been isolated by their colleagues for not conforming; for being over enthusiastic on behalf of the ward and communities they are trying to serve. Some leave the group, others are ditched during the re-selection process if they seek to stand again as a councillor. Others, like me, walk away, convinced they can actually do more for their community in other ways. 5.3 Being a councillor is time consuming. It always has been. Matters have not been made any easier by the professionalisation of councillors work, with daytime meetings, and ever larger local authorities covering larger geographical areas. It is this which has led to councils often being run by councillor elites and it is the members of this group who I see as becoming the new strategic councillors I have already referred to, or who could be replaced by an executive mayor if this was the choice of the voters. These councillors should be regarded as full-time and paid accordingly, bearing in mind that many will have powers and responsibilities which exceed those of any back bench Member of Parliament. 5.4 Ward councillors/mini-mayors based in their local community or nearby, if central facilities and services were easily accessible, could work much more flexibly and organise evening meetings and work with staff expected to work evenings (and weekends occasionally). This would have less impact on councillors existing employment and help minimise the days they need to take off from work (which can be especially difficult when working for a small business). 5.5 The basic councillor allowance in Nottingham is 965 per month ( 11,582 per annum), which I regard as sufficient for being a super community volunteer if we are to believe that the main reason that they are a councillor is because they want to serve their community.

177 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev Helping Councillors and Personal Commitments 6.1 Ideally, every councillor should be able to appoint a part-time remunerated Councillor s Assistant to assist them with casework, research and to act as clerk to their ward forum(s) in the absence of an existing parish or town council. This person would be akin to a town council manager or parish clerk. In other words, non political and able to serve successive councillors while, in the process, building up a bank of local ward knowledge of invaluable benefit not just to the ward councillor, but to the community as a whole. This person would be paid the same as the ward councillor. 6.2 I lost my job in 1971 not long after being elected a Labour Party city councillor in Birmingham. My then employer paid me a large sum of money to leave which I accepted because it was enough to pay off our mortgage at the time. In 1983, I again lost my job, in part because my duties as Chair of East Midlands Airport took up too much of my time, so for two years I became a full time county councillor. 6.3 The practicalities of being a councillor are demanding, especially if you have family commitments. I can fairly claim to have been the first Birmingham city councillor to have taken his children along to council events and others soon followed my example. Not that this prevented my first marriage ending in divorce and I think that the large amount of casework I had to do was a factor in what happened. A steady stream of visitors to our front door and telephone calls every day, plus living in the ward I represented, didn t help. I met my present (second) wife through my work as a councillor and I think it fair to say that we have been, and are, supportive of one another in the community work which we have both undertaken. 6.4 I tell you all this because I have worked with candidates and councillors in many capacities over the years and seen at close quarters how it impacts on work and family life. Being a councillor is a wonderful thing, but it is much harder now than at any time in the past which is why I wanted to submit this evidence and to argue the case for having two types of councillors in the same local authority area. 6.5 Under my proposals, there would be fewer councillors, but they would all be of importance and have a powerful role to play in how our 21st century communities are governed. 7. The Role of Communities in how Councillors make Decisions 7.1 Individual ward councillors should have to work with statutory ward partnership forums, open to ward residents, local businesses and voluntary sector service providers working in the ward where matters of mutual interest can be discussed and the councillor s activities publicly scrutinised. If a parish or town council already exists for all or part of a councillor s ward, this will act as the forum. 7.2 Because my ward councillors would be mini-mayors able to respond quickly as and when a situation demanded action, I am confident there would be more public interest in their activities and local expectations of what a councillor should do and be would be much higher as well. 7.3 The councillor s paid assistant would act as clerk to the forum, but where a partnership forum exists already, they would take on the assistant s responsibilities in the same way an existing town or parish council would. 7.4 The forum and the ward councillor would meet together to discuss the councillor s activities and to receive a financial report at least four times a year, with a published State of the Ward address annually, which would be delivered to all households. In between the forum meetings, the councillor may well work with forum members and other interested parties on matters relating to specific services, facilities or events in much the same way as such a body might do already. The great beauty of this approach is that it would be a living democracy able to deal with the day-to-day practicalities of a councillor s responsibilities whilst always looking for new ways to engage with the wider community and to promote a sense of place. 7.5 Life has taught me that local communities and ward councillors everywhere have the ability to manage their own affairs, from rural villages to inner-city wards. All they need are the resources and the opportunity. I hope I have demonstrated how you can achieve the latter. As for the former, the starting point would be existing council budgets which already allocate revenue and capital across services and facilities, often managed by area managers. The local authority still manages the resources, writes the cheques and issues the budgetary codes. The only difference is that the ward councillor and their assistant prepare the budget and authorise expenditure and decide local charges. 7.6 Existing provision is often unfair, with some communities being favoured over others, so the ward councillors and their strategic councillor colleagues/mayor would have to agree a formula for how resources could be allocated to wards as fairly as possible. Models for doing this exist already and should need little more than tweaking. We are not reinventing the wheel. We re just adding a few gears so that it can cope better with the local terrain. 7.7 Until now, overseeing local budgets has been the preserve of the local council elite. My living democracy approach gives this responsibility to ward councillors and local communities.

178 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 108 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 7.8 At the end of this memorandum is an appendix. It is a copy of the hand-out I produced for an Urban Forum workshop, Local Action: communities and councillors working together which I led at the Rethinking Public Services conference organised by the Local Government Information Unit and National Council of Voluntary Organisations on 29 June 2010 in Westminster Hall. 8. Some Final Observations 8.1 We forget all too easily that the drivers of social change have, for the most part, been local people, some in small villages, others in large cities, who have pioneered so many of the things we now take for granted. Even our most beloved of national institutions, the NHS, has its roots in what was already happening in countless towns and cities. The same is true for housing, parks, schools, welfare services, public transport, bus passes and utilities and so much more. 8.2 At times I despair at the lack of faith we have in local communities to manage their own affairs and came to the conclusion a long time ago that it is all about power and the desire on the part of some politicians, both local and national, to control everything. 8.3 At the end of the day, I don t care what you call it. The Big Society, Localism, Neighbourhood Democracy or whatever you want. The test of your commitment is your willingness to actually empower local communities and their elected councillors to get on with what they can do better than anyone else. In other words it all boils down to good local governance. 8.4 Councillors at their best are innovative and inspiring; at their worst, time serving and parochial. 8.5All the evidence suggests that where and when money is limited, local communities offer better value for money when it comes to doorstep services and scrutiny. How we manage local services and facilities should by decided by ward councillors in partnership with their communities. It s as simple as that APPENDIX

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180 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 110 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence About the Person Making this Submission , Birmingham city councillor, chaired Youth & Community and the Midlands Area Museum Service, served on committees for Birmingham Airport, Leisure and Planning and the Standing Commission for Museums and Galleries , Nottinghamshire county councillor, chaired East Midlands Airport and county Youth & Community Sub-committee and served on Leisure Committee C , Chaired rating and council tax valuation tribunals in Nottinghamshire Lost job twice whilst serving as a councillor (1971 and 1983) to date, Labour Party member with extensive experience as an election agent, compiling manifestos and managing election campaigns at both ward and local authority level , co founder Dunkirk and Lenton Partnership Forum and twice chair , author of new ward boundary proposals for Nottingham City Council which were partly adopted by Local Government Boundary Commission for England , Lenton Community Association (LCA) chair on several occasions. In 1994, 2000 and 2004 led campaigns to keep the local authority owned Lenton Leisure Centre and swimming pool open when confronted with Nottingham City Council plans to close the centre. The centre finally closed in 2004, but in 2005 the City Council sold the building to LCA for 10, and the building then became The Lenton Centre (TLC). The swimming pool re-opened in 2008 and TLC has since won national acclaim as a flagship community led social enterprise For many years an active member of the Association for Neighbourhood Democracy (AND), then chaired by the late Sir Dick Knowles, former Leader of Birmingham City Council, but switched some years ago to arguing for councillors to be given more control over doorstep services , Urban Forum workshop, Local Action: communities and councillors working together at Rethinking Public Services conference organised by the Local Government Information Unit and National Council of Voluntary Organisations in Westminster Hall. May 2012

181 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 111 Written evidence from Age UK (CC 03) The Communities and Local Government Committee is conducting an inquiry into the role councillors play in their communities. The inquiry will cover a range of aspects of a councillor s role. Age UK has a particular interest in the aspect of this inquiry focusing on the role of councillors as leaders of communities and neighbourhoods. Key Points and Recommendations Age UK believes that understanding and acting on the views and needs of older people is central to any councillor s role. They are in a position to challenge the council s decision making and service planning and initiate change that meets the needs of older people in their ward. We believe they should: Make time to listen to older people. Make change happen to improve older people s quality of life. Make an ongoing commitment to keep people involved. Role of Councillors as Leaders of Communities and Neighbourhoods Meeting the needs and expectations of people in later life, within a climate of reduced public spending, presents a significant challenge for councils. Councillors should understand and act upon the views of older people in their community. However, an Age UK survey in 2011 found that only a third (35%) of respondents agreed that councillors are working to benefit older people. Councillors should do more to challenge the council s decision making and service planning and initiate change that meets the needs of older people in their ward. Better Council Services Older people expect better council services. Councillors will be aware that care and support services have faced unprecedented challenges as a result of budget pressures and continued increases in demand. Age UK analysis shows that in there was a reduction in spending on older people s social care of 341 million, or 4.5 percent since Taking into account growth in demand over the same period, this has led to a 500 million gap in funding. i This has resulted in the reduction in the breadth of council care provision and increase in the charges that councils make for care services. DCLG and NHS Information Centre data show that, in real terms, charges were 360 more in than in for each older person using local authority care services. ii These quotes show the significant impact this will on the lives of older citizens: I found that [during] weekends [my father] would not be dressed and got out of bed, as that was when they have staff shortages [in the care home]. It became apparent that you needed to be on death s door before even being considered and we were even told that had Mum lived in a different borough, she would probably have received funding. Older people s needs and views also need to be considered across the range of council decisions, whereas there may be a tendency for councillors and officials to consider their needs only in relation to services such as care. The majority of older people will not be receiving care services. They will however be using services across the range of council provision such as housing, leisure and adult education which keeps them active and independent. Better Neighbourhoods At a neighbourhood level all ward councillors have the opportunity to improve places for older people. For many older people, lack of good quality support and infrastructure within the neighbourhoods acts as a barrier that prevents them from being active locally. In a survey 52% of respondents agreed that the lack of public toilets in their area stopped them from going out as often as they would like. iii Similarly poor pavements, a lack of places to sit down and poor access to local services act to isolate older people. Age friendly neighbourhoods are communities that offer a good quality of life to all generations. That means accessible and inclusive design; environments which are aesthetically pleasing, safe and easy to inhabit; good local services, facilities and open spaces; a strong social and civic fabric, with opportunities to take part and have a voice; and a real sense of local identity and place. As ward representatives, councillors have both the electoral mandate and the local knowledge to bring about positive change. This role can go much wider than any formal responsibilities or portfolio they may have within the council to cement the strong link between the councillor and their older electors.

182 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 112 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence What Can Councillors Do? Age UK believes councillors should: Make time to listen to older people. Make change happen to improve older people s quality of life. Make an ongoing commitment to keep people involved. Time to listen Councillors should make sure older people have their voices heard. As the first level of elected representation, councillors have a responsibility to their electors and are in a position to hear the views of a wide range of older people in their ward. While some councillors will meet with older people through groups or surgeries, this is not happening consistently and often focuses on a minority of active older people. It is particularly concerning that people aged over 75 are less likely to feel they can influence decisions that affect them locally than any other age group. iv In addition, an Age UK survey found that more than half of people aged over 60 (54%) say they have never had any contact with their local councillors. Although this is a better response than for other age groups (75% of those aged between and 69% of those aged between have never had any contact) this is not a good record for local representatives. On the other hand, the same survey found that when older people do have contact with their councillors, they are generally satisfied with the outcome (65% satisfied) and they are significantly more satisfied than younger people (57% aged are satisfied). There is an opportunity here to make sure older people s views are taken into account. Councillors should consider and find ways to overcome the barriers to older people getting more involved. There is a variety of ways of meeting people who may not come to traditional meetings or surgeries, such as holding joint surgeries in GPs or a local Age UK or holding a ward walk (see case study 1) to make sure they hear the experience of a wide range of older people. Case Study 1 Councillors Jim Beall and Barbara Inman of Stockton Borough Council do regular ward walkabouts to share local intelligence and to identify problems. As much as possible, they aim to solve problems on the spot making a note of broken pavements and kerbs that need repairing, for example. The walkabouts involve officers from the council s Care for your area, antisocial behaviour and enforcement services; the local neighbourhood police; the housing provider; and the residents association. Initiate Change Local ward councillors are ideally placed to play a leadership and co-ordinating role for their communities and neighbourhoods. They have both the knowledge of the local area and will have contact with some of the main players involved (inside and outside the council), plus the electoral mandate for action. Take the example of older people s concern about the lack of public transport to the local hospital. To improve the situation this could involve a private bus company, the county and or a district council, the hospital, the PCT cluster, or a community transport provider. The solution will depend on local circumstances and negotiating the best response for local people. Councillors should be able to work with residents to identify opportunities to influence decisions. They will also know potential resources that are available or be able to help find new local solutions (for example see case study 2). Case Study 2 A ward councillor in a rural village in the north of England, recognised that the physical environment can play a major role in encouraging activity and well-being and that making an environment more sympathetic to the needs of older people can prevent injury and social exclusion. The area has the highest proportion of older people in the council area. The councillor persuaded first the Town Council and latterly the unitary council to embark on a radical transformation of the village, which would benefit older people. He was responsible for raising the 3.8 million and leading the transformation programme. The councillor ensured the formation of a Disability Advisory Group for the project. The group had direct involvement in the design features and changes. There was also a public exhibition, which sought feedback in order to listen to older residents and resolve their concerns and needs. The transformation of the village centre has increased the footfall and includes features that are beneficial to older residents. For instance, in the street different levels and trip hazards have been removed; more seating has been provided; and road speed reductions have been achieved by design and engineering.

183 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 113 Ongoing commitment A councillor s role in their community is not a one-off occurrence. There needs to be an ongoing commitment to keep people involved and support their needs. One frustration commonly voiced about engagement with councils is that things do not change or that people never hear what happened in response to their views. Through our Pride of Place campaign Age UK has been working with local councillors to improve neighbourhoods for people in later life. Over 200 councillors have committed to be advocates for older people from their ward and have committed to an ongoing dialogue with people in later life. Councillors that took part in Age UK s Pride of Place project identified a range of actions that they would do differently that relate to listening to older people, communicating with other councillors, improving links with other organisations and practical activities see comments below. v Pride of Place: Councillors Response to what they will do Differently as Advocates for Older People Give more attention to identifying hard to reach older people s groups. Be more aware of needs of older residents (& need to think specifically about them) in terms of my council work and services council provides Communicate what I ve learnt to other councillors. I plan to publicise the Pride of Place scheme within my local council and hopefully encourage fellow elected members to join the scheme. More local ward work and contacts with older people s organisations. Go and learn/find out what is happening, what is needed and go out and work hard to make a difference. Will carry on and be more on the look out to do some things that I have learnt about today. Try to give more priority to involvement with issues for ageing people both as a resource and also in terms of improvement of the environment. May 2012 References i Care in Crisis 2012, Age UK, January 2012 ii Care in Crisis 2012, Age UK, January 2012 iii Public toilets study, Help the Aged, 2006 iv Agenda for Later Life Age UK, 2012 v Pride of Place Evaluation, Age UK, 2012 Written evidence from Professor Colin Copus, De Montfort University (CC05) Bullet Point Summary The roles and tasks of the councillor are subject to a range of external pressures which shape expectations and responsibilities of the office. Many changes and developments in the office of councillor have been imposed by central government as part of moves to shape local government for its own policy purposes. The constitutional subservience of English local government to the British centre has undermined the governing capacity of councillors. The community leadership role of the councillor within his or her ward/division needs to be clarified and supported with powers, budgets and by the council infra-structure if councillors are to be able to lead disparate communities. Councillors need to be able to build alliances and coalitions focused on achieving desired goals, rather than relying on the certainties of party politics. Councillors adherence to a Burkean notion of representation that is that they are free from the electorate to be able to make their own decisions will challenge moves towards developing localised decision-making that passes power to communities. Localised decision-making must be a shared process between councillors and communities. Party politics and the demands of group loyalty and cohesion pose challenges to localised decision-making. Rigid party discipline and conflictual party politics undermines community representation.

184 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 114 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 1. Introduction Representation and representativeness are contested notions. Interpreting representativeness as meaning looking like (microcosmic representation) communities, can fundamentally undermine the traditional approach to representation as it implies that the representative s focus is on the interests of a section of the community rather than on the wider whole, thus shifting from political to identity representation. Councils often under-use their electoral mandate as leverage within governance networks. Full and part time councillors require greater support from their councils for all facets of their work. Councils need to recognise and support the political and governing role of the councillor and structure the council to support that role. The paper responds to the issues raised by the committee by using literature and data from a number of related research projects exploring the developing role of the councillor, including a 2010 cross European study. The councillor occupies a central position in the dynamics of local politics. Yet, councillors are not in control of how the roles they carry out change over time. A series of European-wide pressures, such as those below, shape the tasks, functions, responsibilities and expectations of the office: 1. The changing nature and context of local government and democracy. 2. The organisation and activities of political parties in local government. 3. Increasing public participation in local decision-making, emerging from exhortations by central government, or from demands made by local communities. 4. The fractured and often conflicting nature of the role of the councillor. 5. Changing institutional arrangements for local government. 6. Changing views that politicians at other levels of government hold about councillors roles. Key to the development of the role of the councillor is the interest it attracts from central government. Reviews of local government have explored the attitudes and roles of the councillor (see for example, Maud, 1967, Widdicombe, 1986) but the questions posed and the answers given were a product of their time and based on the subservience of local government in the constitutional framework. The latter reflects a recurrent theme underpinning explorations of the role of the councillor, that this level of elected representative role, unlike those at other levels, is somehow under-developed and in need of constant re-shaping and re-appraisal. Moreover, that it is somehow disconnected from those represented and is a product of a lower level of governing capacity and ability. Some scholars (Greenwood 1981; Jones and Travers 1996) attribute this to a cultural disdain for local government on the part of central government and civil servants. 2. Councillors as Leaders of Communities and Neighbourhoods Councillors have been criticised for spending too much time in council meetings and insufficient time working with local communities (Audit Commission, 1990, detr, 1998). These views often arise from time allocation studies of councillor activity (Young and Rao, 1994, Widdicombe, 1986, ODPM, 2005). Such studies often underestimate the time councillors spend working within communities as they do not account for the proximity of the councillor to the community particularly if the councillor lives within the ward represented. Nor do they adequately account for the fluidity and flexibility of the work of the councillor in ward and community leadership roles or how case-work and pastoral roles overlap with community leadership (Copus, 2004). The community leadership role of the councillor is often something that is recognised by its absence because of the lack of any clear, comprehensive and agreed definition, unlike the concept of political leadership. Moreover, community leadership emerges from the soft powers resting with councillors as elected representatives particularly where there is no executive decision-making ability or budgets available to individual councillors. Community leadership blurs with the wider representative role of the councillor, a role which itself has been distinguished as focusing on constituents (communities) and policy (see, Jones, 1975; Newton, 1976; Rao, 1994). Distinguishing community leadership from other facets of the councillor s role (policy concerns and case work, for example), means we can start to build a picture of what is entailed in providing leadership to communities: Community leadership is related to communities of place or interest; the former will be geographical sub-units of the authority area; the latter can cut across the authority area communities of interest may also be geographically located: Communities of place or interest must be identified by, or make themselves identifiable to, councillors (the ward or division is only one community of place and often an artificial one at that).

185 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 115 Councillors need to develop a map of the communities that exist within their wards or divisions (support in doing this should come from the council). Community leadership entails complexity and interdependence between elected and non-elected sectors, between national and local organisations (that impact on local communities) and between public, private, voluntary and community sectors. Councils operate in conditions of network governance where they are among many bodies making decisions and forming public policy. Councillors similarly face competitors when it comes to decisions made that effect the communities they are expected to lead: Councillors require the soft and hard powers (and enhanced status and recognition as politicians), within their wards or divisions, to be able to bring together disparate bodies many of which will be geographically larger than the communities with which councillors work. The electoral mandate provides councillors with moral and political leverage to bring together diverse interests to focus on community problems But hard (executive) individual political powers are required to enable councillors to direct the engagement of non-elected bodies with issues arsing from communities (such hard powers should be distinct from the collective powers resting with a council or body of councillors). As communities grow in assertiveness and are less willing to acquiesce with decisions made by public authorities, community leadership has become a co-operative process relying on councillors ability to: Negotiate. Compromise. Build coalitions and alliances within and across communities. Reconcile conflicting views across communities about local problems and solutions. Use a wide range of avenues for political communication. Make hard decisions about rationing and the use of scarce resources. Place ideological concerns to one side when dealing with contentious local issues. Only so much can be achieved through soft political powers. Thus, the next section examines how localising decision making to divisions, wards and neighbourhoods relies on hard political powers resting with elected members. 3. Localising Decision-making to Divisions, Wards and Neighbourhoods There are two dimensions to localising decision-making. One is to see devolution as a process of transferring power or decision-making ability to local communities through ward committees or forum. The other is to transfer executive decision-making ability to councillors in their wards or divisions to enhance their community leadership capacity, both individually and collectively. Recent research has shown that councillors adhere strongly to the principles of representative democracy and to a Burkean interpretation of their role. But, there is also considerable support among councillors for people having opportunities to make their views known before important local decisions are made (Sweeting and Copus, 2012). Thus, the community leadership role of the councillor can be strengthened and informed by enhancing public engagement and participation in local decision-making. It is in the task of representing the ward or division that councillors often experience the most rewards from their office but also the most frustration. Those frustrations arise from the low level of recognition often given by councils to the role of the councillor as a ward/divisional representative. That ward link is often transferred into a council-wide governing perspective drawing the member away from a focus on the ward or division (Copus, 2007); it is not the number of meetings councillors attend that takes attention away from the ward; it is that those meetings expect councillors to focus on the whole council area. Based on the research from which this paper is drawn the following devolution of responsibility to councillors is suggested to localise decision making (some already exist in some councils): Individual councillors to be able to place ward issues or any policy or decisions that might impact on the ward, on the agenda for cabinet, full council, or overview and scrutiny meetings. Responses to the items placed on the agendas to be sent to all ward councillors. All reports and decisions that affect or effect specific wards/divisions to go to ward councillors for comment before being sent to the cabinet or council. Ward councillors acting as a representative team (or individual county councillors) to have an executive general power of competence within their wards. Devolved ward/divisional budgets to be created in each council: Those budgets to be allocated equally between councillors within a ward for spending on projects selected by the councillor.

186 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 116 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ward councillors to be informed of and engaged in (supported by the council) any community right to challenge, bid or build under the Localism Act. Every ward to constitute a ward committee. The committee would consist of the ward councillors and would meet on a regular basis. Membership to be open to each ward committee to decide, but might include: Representatives of local community groups. Local residents. Third sector bodies active in the ward. Locally based business. Other public service bodies. The ward committee would have decision-making powers devolved to it from the council. Councillors to rotate on an annual basis as ward mayor. The ward mayor would: Chair the ward committee. Oversee and co-ordinate the use of the general power of competence by the ward councillors. Negotiate with the council on the allocation of devolved ward budgets. Co-ordinate the decisions of individual councillors in identifying projects to be funded and consequent funding decisions made by the ward councillors. The council leader/mayor and cabinet to report annually (at full council) on how decisions and policy have effected individual wards. In single member wards and county divisions the above role enhancements would need to be reconfigured to be concentrated in the single elected member. The above may seem a recipe for more meetings, but those events will take place in and be focussed solely on the ward or division represented by the councillor. In addition, they will involve others from the local community in a formalised and localised decision making process. 4. The Recruitment and Diversity of Councillors and the Implications for Representation and Local Democracy There has long been a debate as to whether representation and representativeness should be understood as acting politically and in the interests of others, or whether it means resembling the others represented (see, Pitkin, 1972). Minorities in the context of liberal representative democracy have traditionally been political and not identity minorities. The contemporary debate has shifted towards representative democracy and representation being seen by some as sociological or microcosmic representation; that is, that representative bodies (in this case councils) should reflect as numerically as possible the ethnic (or other) make-up of the local community. Arguments for microcosmic representation appear to assume that only those who are from certain communities can undertake the task of representing them. Thus, the role of the councillor is not to represent the interests of the whole community, but the section of it from which the representative hails. That approach has serious implications for community cohesion as it displays a far more exclusive view of representation than has hitherto been the case. Indeed, a dangerous sectarianism could enter council chambers and party group meetings if diversity of recruitment is seen as an end in itself. Yet, the success of Respect in the 2012 Bradford council elections raises questions: whether the main parties will continue to lose support to those smaller parties that are perceived to represent the interests of minority communities; and, whether or not support for smaller parties, such as Respect, indicates a worrying sectarianism in local politics (see, Clarke, et al, 2008). Thus, councillor diversity is complex question which can only be answered suitably by a careful consideration what it is that the councillor as a representative is expected to represent. There are numerous studies of the recruitment of councillors, (see Brand, 1973, Barron, et al, 1989, Rao, 1998, Steyvers and Verhelst, 2012, Reynaert, 2012) which indicate that political parties are not only the key councillor recruitment agencies, but also create barriers to diversifying the councillor population. The academic literature highlights the way in which parties capitalise on: Candidate motivations. Resources available to parties and individuals. Political opportunities. Informal negotiations between potential recruits to overcome resistance, to encourage those drifting towards candidature and to indentify committed potential candidates. Judgments made about the characteristics favoured by parties. Judgements about the qualities of potential candidates.

187 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 117 Studies also show how the candidate recruitment process is shaped by: The professionalisation of parties and local government. The way in which potential candidates are filtered internally by political parties. Path dependent traits within political parties. The Councillors Commission (Dclg, 2007) summed up the barriers to councillor as: Lack of awareness about the role of the councillor. Political culture. The confidence of individuals to take on the role. Concerns about time commitment. Concerns about the reaction of employers and about effects on career prospects. Many councils have begun to actively encourage individuals to stand for local election, but doubts remain as to the success of these attempts while parties remain the key recruitment agency for candidates with the highest likelihood of victory at the polls. Parties are actively seeking to diversify the pool of candidates from which they select. Some local parties have advertised for candidates or recruited on the doorstep. Such activities normally receive criticism from political opponents, but they offer candidature to a wider pool than that possible by insisting all candidates are existing party members. Whatever actions parties take to widen the pool of candidates, one question remains: if an independent candidate from an under represented group stood for election, would the political parties stand a candidate against him or her? Encouraging diversity among the councillor population requires parties to examine internal selection processes to identify and rectify barriers while at the same time avoiding patronising tokenism. Parties need to think more imaginatively about recruitment and selection and not to oppose suitable non-party candidates that may emerge, rather to offer endorsement and even support. The restrictions of group disciple and loyalty and confrontational party politics, to which many do not wish to subject themselves, may also act as barriers to councillor recruitment. Parties therefore need to consider not just recruitment, but their own conduct of local politics and council politics in particular. Research shows that the key focus of councillor loyalty is not the community (or ward or division) represented, rather the councillor s political party. Indeed, councillors will place group decisions above the articulated views of their constituents (Copus, 1999, 2001, 2007, 2010). Given the dominance of party politics in local government and the strength of party group discipline and loyalty, it is unlikely that moves towards a greater diversity among the councillor population would lead to greater representation of minority interests. There is a further key issue of diversity of representation that the committee may wish to consider. As a result of the 2012 council elections around 93% of all councillors in England are from one of the three main national parties. By contrast, only around 1% of the population are members of political parties nationally (SN/ SG5125, 2009). The most under-represented group of people in local government and among councillors are those that are not members of the three main political parties. 5. The Practicalities of being a Councillor: Time Commitment, Time off Work, Casework and Remuneration The committee will no doubt receive evidence about the time commitment and time allocation for councillors duties and some of that literature has been referred to in section 2. In this section, therefore the two competing conceptualisations of the role of the councillor are briefly contrasted; the part-time lay representative and the full-time professional councillor. What is presented below are ideal types, and the reality of councillors experiences and ways of working will exist on a continuum between the ideals. The Lay part-time member: If a task of the councillor is to hold an administrative machine and a political administration to account, then he or she is not required to be an expert in the specific services and responsibilities of the council. The strength of the lay member comes from bringing outside life experience, backgrounds, abilities and expertise to bear and from the ability to question, challenge and critique proposals and council activities. Those qualities enable the lay councillor to examine the activities of the council and policy problems in a way that that experts and full-time politicians may over look. The lay councillor avoids becoming professionalised and thus avoids being distanced from those he or she represents. He or she will see their responsibility to the community as the cornerstone of council activity and will therefore place a focus on case-work and community engagement. The full-time professional councillor: councillors become professional, full-time members either by drift caused by weight of work and a gradual rise through the career structure, or from a choice based on a political commitment to party and/or council service. The full-time councillor is immersed in all aspects of council work and has developed day-to-day working relationships with council officers at a strategic and operational level. They are most likely, but not exclusively, to be members of the council executive or to hold senior council positions. The focus of the professional councillor is on strategic policy development, broad governing issues and ensuring alignment between the council and the political objectives of the majority party group.

188 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 118 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence The full-time councillor is able to develop a strong appreciation and understanding of all aspects of the council s responsibilities but as a consequence is often drawn into defending the council if a member of the ruling group rather than channelling the views of the public into the council machinery. He or she will undertake case-work and other ward duties and, being close to the council, is able to navigate the internal systems to good effect. He or she will be well-connected within their political party locally, regionally and possibly at a national level. Unlike the lay member the full-time professional councillor would not eschew the title politician. Opposition leaders can of course also be full-time professional councillors. These two ideal types bring to the fore considerations about remuneration and whether local government now requires full-time salaried councillors. The pressures and nature of council work and the expectations on elected members, alongside the demands of working at leadership and cabinet level, means that a system of allowances is no longer an appropriate way of remunerating certainly senior councillors. Indeed, the creation of council executives as a result of the Local Government Act 2000 makes it vital that at least cabinet members operate on a full-time salaried status. A similar status for overview and scrutiny chairs should also be considered. On the other hand there is still the need to ensure that councillors are not expected to become full-time. As we have seen the part-time lay member has much to contribute and is a counter-point to the distancing from the voters that full-time members can experience. A danger does lie in this argument however, that is that the ruling group by dint of having full-time salaried incumbents may be given an unfair electoral advantage if opposition leaders are carrying out their business on a part-time basis. Councils may then need to look closely at the nature of the support given to opposition councillors as a group to ensure accountability is practiced as effectively as possible. Part-time and full-time councillors will both experience the demands of case and ward work and such work only differs by the nature of the ward and not the part or full-time status of the councillor. The proximity of the councillor to those represented, means, unlike MPs, that they are constantly and easily approachable for constituents. Case work is not limited to surgery time alone. Rather, councillors are on 24-hour call. 6. Strategic Leadership and Governance The executive member may logically be seen as responsible for providing strategic direction and contributing to governance networks, but such responsibilities are not limited to executive members alone. Councillors outside the executive, through overview and scrutiny, are able to contribute to the strategic direction developed by the executive and to wider governance networks. The latter however, is generally an underdeveloped aspect of the scrutiny function. One of the implications of the separation of powers introduced by the Local Government Act 2000 is that councils should be able to speak with more than one voice and while executives and scrutiny are not in competition, they will make different contributions to leadership and governance. Yet, governance fundamentally alters local democracy and the role of the councillor and such a shift requires councillors to: Focus externally on developing governing capacity to shape/direct/influence the activities of non-elected bodies. Use the leverage provided by a democratic mandate to construct a shared vision for the development of the locality and communities within it. Integrate and mediate between competing interests and views of how the locality should develop. Operate within networks that extend beyond the boundaries of a single council. Recognise the need to move away from traditional party-based representative forms of local government to be congruent with network governance, market and participatory competitors to the representative system. While councillors, as party members, continue to be geared towards fighting and winning elections and focusing internally towards the working of the council, they are likely to continue to act in a way that benefits that role. In that case councillors are also likely to become more and more marginalised in the governance of local communities. 7. Skills, Training and Support for Councillors While some councils make good provision for training and for support to councillors the general pattern is a scattered one. By and large, councils focus far more on their public service responsibilities than they do on their role as a representative institution. Indeed, councils are synonymous with service provision, rather than being seen as a governing entity within the locality. Thus, councils are often not set up as much as they should be to support the political, governing and representative role councils and councillors undertake. Councils need to review the support provided to councillors in the following areas: Policy. Research. Administrative/secretarial.

189 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 119 Ward/division duties. IT facilities. Support to councillors needs to be seen in the same way as support to managers and as a key function of the council. It is a dangerous false economy not to provide high-level and high-quality support and training to all members equally and in all facets of their work. Training must not be used to managerialise the role of the councillor, rather as a way of developing political, critical and governing skills. 8. Conclusions Councillors inhabit a level of government which experiences forces for change often beyond their control and frequently generated by other levels of government seeking to reform local government. Centrally inspired reforms may come and go, but councillors are the foundation for representative local democracy and have a key role to play in wider governance networks. All councillors contribute to community leadership, either through the position they hold in the council s leadership, or by virtue of being an elected representative for a ward or division. It is simply the scope of that leadership and engagement with governance networks that varies. Much investigation into the work of the councillor is conducted with a view that it can be improved and that somehow it is lacking, rather than from a desire to explore what is required to enhance the governing capacity of local government and councillors. Councillors as governors, representatives and decision-makers need the political and institutional powers to be able to govern their localities. That in turn requires a devolution of power from central to local government that views councils as political entities and not only as bodies responsible for public service provision. May 2012 References Audit Commission (1990), We Can t Go On Meeting Like This: Changing Role of local Authority Members Barron, J, G Crawley and T Wood (1989). Drift and Resistance: refining models of political recruitment, Policy and Politics, 17:3, Brand, J (1973). Party Organisation and the Recruitment of Councillors, British Journal of Political Science, 3 (4), 1973, pp Clark A, K Bottom, C Copus (2008). More Similar Than They d Like to Admit? Ideology, Policy and Populism in the Trajectories of the British National Party and Respect, British Politics, 3:4, Committee on the Management of Local Government, (1967). Vol. I, Report of the Committee, London, HMSO Committee on the Management of Local Government (1967). Research Vol. II, The Local Government Councillor, London, HMSO Committee of Inquiry into the Conduct of Local Authority Business (1986). Report of the Committee into the Conduct of Local Authority Business, Cmnd 9797, London, HMSO. Committee of Inquiry into the Conduct of Local Authority Business (1986), Research Vol. II, The Local Government Councillor, Cmnd 9799, London, HMSO Copus, C (2010). The Councillor: Governor, Governing, Governance and the Complexity of Citizen Engagement, British Journal of Politics and International Relations, 12: Copus, C (2007). Liberal Democrat Councillors: Community Politics, Local Campaigning and the role of the Political Party, Political Quarterly, 78:1, Copus, C (2004). Party Politics and Local Government, Manchester University Press. Copus, C (2001). Citizen Participation in Local Government: The Influence of the Political Party Group, Local Governance, 27: Copus, C (1999). The Councillor and Party Group Loyalty, Policy and Politics, 27:3, DCLG (2007), Representing the Future: The Report of the Councillors Commission Detr, Modern Local Government: In Touch with the People, Greenwood, R (1981), Fiscal Pressure and Local Government in England and Wales, in Hood and Wright, Big Government in Hard Times Oxford: Martin Robertson. Jones, G and T Travers (1996). Attitudes to Local Government in Westminster and Whitehall. Commission for Local Democracy Report No 14, May. Jones, G W, (1975). Varieties of Local Politics, Local Government Studies, 1: Newton, K, Second City Politics: Democratic Processes and Decision-Making in Birmingham, Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1976.

190 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 120 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence ODPM, 2005, Councillors and the New Council Constitutions Pitkin, H, The Concept of Representation, University of California Press, 1972 Rao, N, The Making and Unmaking of Local Self-Government, Aldershot, Dartmouth, 1994.Rao, N., (1998) The Recruitment of Representatives in British Local Government: pathways and barriers, Policy and Politics, 26:3, Reynaert, H (2012), The Social Base of Political Recruitment. A Comparative Study of Local Councillors in Europe, Lex Localis, 10:1, Standard Note (2009), SN/SG/5125 Membership of UK political parties, House of Commons Library, Steyvers, K, and T Verhelst (2012), Between Layman and Professional? Political Recruitment and Career Development of Local Councillors in a Comparative Perspective, Lex Localis, 10;1, 1 17 Sweeting, D, and C Copus (2012). Whatever happened to local democracy? Policy and Politics, 40:1, Young, K and N Rao (1994), Coming to Terms with Change: The Local Government Councillor in 1993, York, Joseph Rowntree Foundation. Further written evidence from Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield, De Montfort University (CC 05a) 1. Introduction The report has been prepared as additional evidence for the Communities and Local Government Committee inquiry into councillors and the community. It is based on responses to a questionnaire survey distributed, to councillors in 16 countries across Europe. The questionnaire was completed at different times in each country throughout The data contained in this report is based on the responses of councillors from England, Scotland and Wales. The questionnaire was mailed to all councillors in 119 authorities via member services or equivalent. The distribution of authorities was as follows: 63 English districts, 13 English unitary councils, 10 English metropolitan boroughs, nine English county councils, nine London boroughs, nine Scottish unitary councils and six Welsh unitary councils (104 English authorities in all). The distribution was proportionate to the number of councillors in those types of authorities; proportionality between the main political parties at the time was ensured. In all, 6,082 questionnaires were distributed. In total, exactly 700 questionnaires were returned a disappointing response rate of about 11.5%; 588 were returned from England, 22 from Scotland, and 15 from Wales. Some 75 questionnaires, though otherwise completed satisfactorily, had obliterated the tracking number that identified the authority to which the questionnaire had been sent. Other datasets can make better claims to being fully balanced and statistically generalisable samples from which inferences can be drawn about the whole population of councillors. The dataset however, does share broadly with larger sample surveys, particular key characteristics such as average age of councillors, gender distribution, and average length of time served. Given the composition of the councillor population and the responses to the survey, the findings can be reported with confidence that they represent broad patterns existing in the wider councillor population. A note of caution must be added however, when reporting data from low response rate surveys; only new surveys and a larger response rate could confirm or refute the patterns that emerged from this survey. The questionnaire contained some 49 questions, with a total of 307 sub-questions in total. What is reported here are the responses to those questions which are relevant to the discussion at the committee s evidence session held on 2 July General Characteristics of the Councillor Population: An International Perspective The data available from the research referred to in the introduction enables us to make a few observations about the overall councillor population (the research sample) to add to what is already know from sources such as the Local Government Association s survey of councillors. Set out below is the position of UK councillor respondents to the survey in a series of international league tables displayed by the following categories: age, retired from employment, length of service, gender and education.

191 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 121 Young Old Table 1 AGE Country Mean Median Spain Switzerland Italy Greece Austria Israel Fra nce Germany Sweden United Kingdom Table one shows that when using both mean and median averages the UK has the oldest councillors from those countries included in the survey. An exploration of the roles, expectations, remuneration, status of councillors, powers and responsibilities of local government and a range of other factors, in countries with far lower mean and median average ages would uncover, in some detail, the strategies required to encourage younger people to stand for office of councillor. Such research could be conducted from existing material, although primary research will no doubt add to that knowledge. The age composition of the councillor population is even more evident in table two when looking at the percentage of councillors who are retired. The UK is in a league of its own with 1,237% more councillors who are retired than Spain, the country with the smallest percentage of retired councillors. The Office for National Statistics noted that in 2010, 17% of the population was 65 or over. Retired of course, does not mean you are necessarily in that age group, but it is a useful proxy indicator and the international comparison is shown in table two. Table 2 PERCENTAGE OF RETIRED COUNCILLORS % Retired United Kingdom 43.3 France 30.2 Poland 20.0 The Netherlands 19.1 Germany 18.9 Greece 11.7 Austria 11.7 Switzerland 10.6 Czech Republic 10.5 Spain 3.5 Most Fewest The age distribution of the councillor population takes on a slightly different perspective when we consider the length of service of our councillor respondents from across Europe. Table three displays the length of service by the country of the respondents.

192 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 122 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Table 3 LENGTH OF SERVICE Mean Median Germany Sweden Austria United Kingdom Belgium Czech Republic Norway Greece Italy France Switzerland Israel Spain The Netherlands Poland Croatia Whether mean or median is used the UK has some of the longest serving members. The interesting data point is France. Using the mean they are in the middle, but the median figure indicates a number of French councillors standing down after a year. If the UK has some of the longest serving members then given the age composition of our respondents, councillors were either elected at a younger age and the current age profile could be a product of length of service; or, councillors were elected at ages above that of the average population and length of service has distinguished the age difference between councillors and the overall population still further. The answer is probably a combination of both. As table four illustrates that the UK is neither at the top or the bottom of the distribution when it comes to the balance between male and female councillors. Comparison with the extremes of the distribution however, could be interpreted as either a more progressive approach in the UK than other countries, or conversely a must do better, conclusion depending on whether one looks up or down the table. Table 4 GENDER Male Female Percentage Female Most Fewest France Sweden Norway Spain Switzerland Germany Poland Greece Italy Israel United Kingdom A similar conclusion can be drawn between the question of gender and age. It could be assumed that gender (and age) distribution are not only related to personal factors or to gender and age itself, but also to a range of institutional and organisational factors concerning the powers, roles, responsibilities, status and functions of local government and councillors, across Europe. Research into these institutional and organisational factors would assist in providing policy solutions to the age, gender and no doubt ethnicity composition of the councillor populations and provide valuable data on how to develop policy to ensure that the councillor population resembles that of the wider population. The committee may want to consider commissioning such research.

193 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 123 Next the educational background of councillors from our survey nations is set out in table five and the data here can be interpreted in one of two ways. Table 5 EDUCATION University / college or equivalent. Percentage Most Fewest Israel 84.4 Spain 77.0 United Kingdom 72.2 France 71.8 Czech Republic 69.0 Croatia 58.3 Germany 54.0 Italy 48.9 Sweden 47.1 Austria 30.5 When it comes to an international comparison the UK has an educated councillor base which is what is required when it comes to tackling the complex array of decisions with which councillors are faced and in producing solutions to complex local problems. An alternative interpretation exists however, in that the table emphasises what we saw with age and gender, that the councillor population does not resemble the overall population insofar as they don t look like us, that is, the social structure they represent. We now move on to consider responses to the broader questions asked in the international survey. 3. Political Influence The research sought to uncover where political influence rested in local government and to understand the views councillors held about influential groups or individuals when it came to council business. Councillors were asked to reply to the question below and table six shows the percentage responses to the influence of the individuals or groups they were asked to consider.

194 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 124 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Table 6 INFLUENCE On the basis of your experience as a local councillor in this City, and independently of the formal procedures, please indicate how influential each of the following actors are over the Local Authority activities. No influence little influence some influence high influence very high influence The leader The Chair of the Council The Chairs of Council Committees The Executive Individual councillors Myself The Heads of Department in the local authority The Chief Executive Professional Consultants/Experts Local MPs Local trade unions Journalists Local business people National and international firms Faith groups Local voluntary associations Local single issue groups Neighbourhood committees, forums or partnerships Party leaders Party groups of councillors in the council Local political parties including non - councillors Regional and upper levels of government What we can see from table six is a clear distinction made by councillors, between the degree of influence over council business that is had by actors internal to the council and those that are external to it. When looking at the highlighted figures, taking the central column as a mid-point, we can see a clear direction of travel in the responses and some interesting patterns emerged. Chairs of committees (overview and scrutiny, etc), the council leader and executive members are clearly seen as influential by councillors. The non-executive councillor and individual councillors are seen as having less influence than executive members. The role of individual members is interesting and while they are perceived to have marginal influence respondents think they have slightly more influence as an individual as opposed to all councillors. Moreover, the influence of appointed officers is clearly recognised by councillors and responses here about the influence of the chief executive and other directors, parallel responses about the council leader and executive members. A telling point is that as soon as we move outside the council the direction of travel of responses is reversed: there is a noticeable trailing off in influence for those outside the council. That is not the case, however, for neighbourhood committees, forums or partnerships but these can be seen as still being part of the council. The responses question the embededness of councillors within the communities they represent. By assessing a range of external actors as less influential than internal actors, councillors display the strength of their connection with the council rather than the wider social world. It also means that councillors have not used their own offices to redress this balance. Councillors are not yet a gateway for the wider world into council affairs and decision-making. Moreover, such responses raise questions about councillors and therefore councils contribution to and engagement with, governance networks beyond the council. In producing an international comparison for the influence councillors grant to the leader of the council and the chief executive an interesting pattern emerges. Table seven displays councillors perceptions of the influence

195 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 125 of the council leader and for ease of presentation the table (and the other tables showing international comparisons in this report) shows only the top and bottom five groupings from the data set. Table 7 Top Five Bottom Five COUNCIL LEADER INFLUENCE BY COUNTRY No Little Some High Very High High and Very High Combined Israel France Greece Italy Spain United Kingdom Switzerland Czech Republic Norway The Netherlands When taking the combined high and very high categories we highlight those responses where the role of the leader was seen as instrumental in the political process. In this case responses from U.K councillors appear in the bottom part of the table, while at the same time indicating that councillors accord the leader substantial influence. If however, the response for some influence are included then the UK would jump from the bottom five to the fourth highest in terms of perceptions of leader influence. When looking at the reason for the league tables we can take structural aspects as an explanation. Without going into too much detail about systems of local government overseas the influence accorded to political leaders in the top five in our table derives from formal, legal powers resting with the political leader and with local government as an institution and of course from the informal influence leaders can wield, which is again often related to their formal position. Moreover, systems within the same country will differ depending on population sizes of a council area. So looking at the top five most influential leaders we see Israel, Greece and Italy with directly elected mayors; and, Spain and France where the mayor heads a party list (in Spain the mayor is also head of the local party) and where the law formally places executive power in the hands of the mayor. It appears that despite executive political decision-making in England, council leaders are not seen by councillors to be as quite as influential as some of their overseas counterparts judge the elected heads of their councils. Turning to the influence of the chief executive in local government a different pattern emerges as shown in table eight.

196 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 126 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Table 8 CHIEF EXECUTIVE INFLUENCE BY COUNTRY No Little Some High very High High and Very High Combined Influence High est Lowest Norway United Kingdom Sweden Italy Belgium Czech Republic Austria Switzerland Poland Greece Taking the same approach of combining the high and very high influence responses we see that councillors in the UK are second in the international table of perceptions of chief executive influence. The results reflect an often repeated comment from councillors that the authors of this report have experienced from qualitative research, where councillors claim that either officers or the chief executive run this council. Although Italy also appears in the top five, as it did in table seven of leader influence, the combined score places it well below that of the UK. Norway was in the bottom five of leader influence and so, unsurprisingly makes an appearance at the top of table eight. What we are seeing in some case then, such as Norway, is a contrary set of responses if the council leader lacks influence, then the chief executive must have influence. The result from the UK is more complex, given the overall scores for leader and chief executive influence. Despite a shift to an executive system of council leaders and cabinets the appointed chief executive is still perceived by councillors to be of sufficient influence to appear in the top five of the international table, while the leader sits in the bottom five. The results indicate a structural location of power and influence with an appointed rather than elected head at least in the view of councillors and indicates the pervasive influence of managerialism within local government. 4. Candidature The research explored how councillors were first nominated to stand as a candidate so as to understand the nomination process and where responsibility rested for indentifying potential candidates: the party or the individual. Table 9 and chart one present the responses to a simple question: Table 9 HOW DID YOU BECOME A CANDIDATE THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE NOMINATED? How did you become a candidate the first time you were nominated? % I proposed myself (or I requested party colleagues to nominate me for selection) 18.8 I was asked by others (including being nominated by party colleagues) 81.3

197 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 127 Chart one bellow presents the responses diagrammatically. Chart 1 CANDIDATURE I proposed myself (or I requested party colleagues to nominate me for selection) 19% I was asked by others (including being nominated by party colleagues) 81% In the overwhelming number of cases being a nominee of others, as opposed to being a self-nominator, is the route into candidature. Yet, exploring the data shows that self-nominators are not the same as Independents. Independent respondents were also nominated in that it was suggested to them by others in the community or an organisation that they should stand for the council. Party members were present among self-nominators and had either nominated themselves where the opportunities arose, or had sought out a nominator to ensure they were able to enter the selection process. Labour Party selection processes allow party members to selfnominate and effectively all nominees could be self-nominators, so it is interesting that the figures for selfnomination are not higher. Councillors distinguish between an organisational process and where they have been asked to stand by colleagues. There is an interesting difference in age between self-nominators and nominees. Self-nominators are on average younger by six years than their counter-parts who secured (or requested) a nomination from other sources (mean for SN = 54; mean for other 60). While a six year difference does not appear great it was a statistically significant difference and indicated two very different types of approaches to candidature. Selfnominators were among the younger cohorts of councillors and as such the results indicate the continued emergence of a more confident and self-assured councillor population. While the number of younger councillors is relatively small, we can say that they have a propensity to behave differently to their older colleagues. Table 10 illustrates this clearly. Respondents have been grouped into age categories starting with the youngest and working through to the oldest group which was 70 and over.

198 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 128 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Table 10 AGE CATEGORIES * HOW DID YOU BECOME A CANDIDATE THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE NOMINATED? How did you become a candidate the first time you were nominated? Age categories I proposed myself I was asked by others Total Count % within Age categories 37.5% 62.5% 100.0% Count % within Age categories 34.2% 65.8% 100.0% Count % within Age categories 29.5% 70.5% 100.0% Count % within Age categories 18.2% 81.8% 100.0% Count % within Age categories 17.1% 82.9% 100.0% 70 and Count above % within Age categories 6.1% 93.9% 100.0% Total Count % within Age categories 18.4% 81.6% 100.0% There is an abundance of research showing that on average councillors are older than the population they serve. In the National Census of Local Authority Councillors 2010 conducted by the LGA, the average age of councillors had shown an increase on the previous census from 55 to 60, while the average age of the population as a whole was 40. The findings in our survey are consistent with the LGA s finding, what is of interest is how younger councillors behave in defined circumstances compared to the average. By grouping ages in Table 10 we can see a pattern of behaviour emerges whereby those in the younger age groups have a greater propensity to nominate themselves. In the youngest age group, 19 29, 37% of respondents were self-nominators, but this reduces age group by age group until in the oldest age group only 6% nominated themselves. The implication is that future generations of prospective councillors will be more likely self nominate compared to the current councillor population. As the population of councillors ages the tail of self nominators will grow; the data shows older councillors will continue to rely on the nomination process until they cease being councillors. The influence of the party and official party structures on selection could dissipate over time as younger councillors self nominate. If we look at the data internationally, in table 11 we see that the UK sits just above the mid-way point in the table of nominations. The explanation for the ranking can be found, again, in structural differences between the various local government, political and electoral systems, as well as in the political culture of each country. Such factors help councillors determine the political strategies they will employ when seeking nomination. It is also clear that across our survey population in Europe, nomination or suggestion that an individual should stand, by party colleagues or other contacts, is the main route to candidature. Although, as we have seen above, this route may be changing.

199 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 129 Table 11 COUNCILLOR NOMINATIONS I proposed myself I was asked by others Israel Poland Greece France The Netherlands Belgium United Kingdom Switzerland Italy Germany Czech Republic Austria Norway Sweden Croatia Spain Task Orientation The survey asked respondents how important they thought were the various tasks that the councillor was required to undertake. The tasks presented to respondents were designed to provide an indication of the different roles undertaken by councillors and designed to ask councillors to comment on the importance of broad aspects of council business and political representation. Table 12 sets out the responses received. Table 12 TASK ORIENTATION In your experience as a councillor, how important are the following tasks for you as a councillor None Little Moderate Great Very great Defining the main goals of the local authority Controlling what the local authority does Representing requests and issues emerging locally Publicising debate on local issues before decisions are taken Explaining decisions of the council to citizens Implementing the programme of my political party/ movement Supporting the executive Mediating local conflicts Promoting the views and interests of local minorities Promoting the views and interests of women

200 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 130 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence The responses show that councillors have distinct perceptions about the different roles that they undertake and while the importance of these roles may vary somewhat, each are seen as a key task for the councillor. The direction of travel in the responses is, in every case, from moderate importance to very great importance. It is clear that councillors place importance on their role in explaining decisions of the council to citizens, so the idea that councillors are a conduit for the council to the citizen, rather than the citizen to the council has some credence. Much of the reason for this response comes from the relationship councillors have with their party particularly if it is the ruling group on the council and this can be seen when looking at the other important role councillors conduct: Implementing the programme of their political party. Yet, when it comes to Representing requests and issues emerging locally we see an equally un-ambivalent and somewhat contradictory response. The contradiction here is explainable in that representation is not confined to formal council settings or meetings, but takes place in a wide range of settings: the party group; private meetings with citizens, officers or other members; community events; and, interactions with government departments, public sector bodies and other partner organisation. Thus, councillors distinguish between what they do in formal settings, such as council meetings, where party loyalties and party discipline come into play and in more informal settings and interactions (where political opponents are not present) where party becomes less of a consideration. Worthy of some note are the responses to the statements asking about the importance to councillors of Promoting the views and interests of local minorities and Promoting the views and interests of women. The responses to these questions are set out in tables 13, 14 and 15. Table 13 REPRESENTING MINORITIES BY GENDER In your experience as a councillor, how important are the following tasks for you as a councillor:- Promoting the views and interests of minorities in the local society None Little Moderate Great 38. Are you male or female? Male Female Total Count % within Are you male or female? 2.2%.6% 1.8% Count % within Are you male or female? 11.2% 5.8% 9.8% Count % within Are you male or female? 36.0% 24.6% 33.1% Count % within Are you male or female? 32.2% 40.9% 34.4% Very great Count % within Are you male or female? 18.3% 28.1% 20.8% Total Count % within Are you male or female? 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% Women councillors place greater emphasis than their male counterparts on the importance of representing minority ethnic groups. While just over half of male councillors see the role as of great or very great importance, 69% of female councillors fall into those two groups. Interestingly, however, table 14 shows that while there is a difference in the perceptions of the emphasis women place on representing women the differences are not as great when compared to their male counter-parts as with the question above. The single largest group for both male and female councillors was a moderate response to the proposition in table 14 below.

201 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 131 Table 14 REPRESENTATION OF WOMEN BY GENDER In your experience as a councillor, how important are the following tasks for you as a 38. Are you male or female? councillor: - Promoting the views and interests of women in the local society Male Female Total None Count % within Are you male or female? 7.4% 3.0% 6.3% Little Count % within Are you male or female? 15.6% 14.2% 15.3% Moderate Count % within Are you male or female? 39.5% 34.9% 3% Great Count % within Are you male or female? 23.7% 27.8% 24.7% Very great Count % within Are you male or female? 13.8% 20.1% 15.4% Total Count % within Are you male or female? 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% Table 15 below, shows that of those councillors with a high degree of belonging to a minority ethnic group, 71%, thought that the representation of minority groups was of great or very great importance. That result compares with just over half of councillors who thought the issue of great or very great importance but who had no sense of belonging to minority ethnic groups.

202 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 132 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Table 15 ETHNICITY AND RESPONSIVENESS To what extent do you feel that you belong to the following groups in society? - An ethnic minority group In your experience as a councillor, how important are the following tasks for you as a councillor: - Promoting the views and interests of minorities in the local society Not at all To a low degree Neither high nor low degree To some degree To a high degree Total None Count % within An ethnic minority group 1.7% 6.3%.0% 4.0%.0% 1.9% Little Count % within An ethnic minority group 11.7% 6.3%.0% 12.0% 14.3% 10.9% Moderat e Great Count % within An ethnic minority 35.0% 37.5% 28.0% 36.0% 14.3% 33.7% group Count % within An ethnic minority group 32.0% 28.1% 56.0% 40.0% 46.4% 34.1% Very great Total Count % within An ethnic minority 19.6% 21.9% 16.0% 8.0% 25.0% 19.3% group Count % An ethnic minority group 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 6. Information Available to Councillors To be able to act effectively across their various roles, councillors require adequate information on which to assess and discuss the issues before them, make judgments and take and justify decisions. As part of understanding how effectively councillors can act the survey asked them about the amount of information available to them. Table 16 and chart two sets out the responses. Table 16 SATISFACTION WITH INFORMATION AVAILABLE Do you get a satisfactory amount of information from the local authority to perform your job as a councillor? % Completely unsatisfactory 3.1 Mostly unsatisfactory 5.7 Neither satisfactory nor unsatisfactory 14.8 Mainly satisfactory 58.2 Completely satisfactory 18.2

203 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev Chart 2 SATISFACTION Completely unsatisfactory Mostly Unsatifactory Neither satisfactory nor unsatisfactory Mainly satisfactory completely satisfactory Again, as with all responses so far, there is a clear direction of travel towards one end of the scale, giving us a clear outcome: members are by and large satisfied with the information they receive to perform their roles. A note of caution must be made here however, as making a judgment on the adequacy of information supplied requires the recipient to be aware of alternative sources of information and to have some criteria on which to judge the information they receive against those other sources. It is also difficult in a questionnaire survey for an individual to admit the information they have to carry out their role is inadequate as by implication that questions the adequacy of their own activities. These responses somewhat contradict the results of qualitative research conducted by the authors in various projects. Councillors often question not only the adequacy and quality of information received but also the quantity: not enough and they are being deliberately misled; too much and they are being deliberately swamped in detail to disguise some key or important issues. Yet, on the face of it, the results of the survey do indicate satisfaction among councillors with the information they receive. Table 17 presents the data comparatively from our international survey respondents. The table uses a scale from 1, which is Completely Dissatisfied with the information flow, through to 5, which is Completely Satisfied with the information flow. The higher the mean score the more satisfied councillors are with the flow of information.

204 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 134 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Table 17 FLOW OF INFORMATION Mean Do you get a satisfying amount of information from the municipal administration to perform your job as a councillor? Croatia 4.07 Czech Republic 4.05 Poland 3.93 Norway 3.93 Sweden 3.92 Germany 3.88 Switzerland 3.87 United Kingdom 3.83 Austria 3.80 Italy 3.72 Belgium 3.68 The Netherlands 3.67 France 3.67 Spain 3.60 Greece 3.45 Israel 2.92 The table underpins the discussion so far with a mean score which places councillors in this country at the mid-point in the table when it comes to satisfaction with the information available to them. It is informative that three relatively new democracies top the table when it comes to information satisfaction, probably indicating a response to moving from a system where information was heavily restricted and manipulated to a more open and transparent system by comparison. Accounting for this factor sees the responses from the UK move up the table somewhat. 7. Councillors Allowances Given the regular publicity about the level of councillor allowances, the research sought to uncover whether or not councillors felt the allowance regime was adequate to support them in their role. Table 18, 18.1 and 18.2 and chart three displays the responses received. Tables 18.1 and 18.2 have been produced by recoding the variable in the questionnaire: Considering your responsibilities, do you think the allowance you receive as a councillor is adequate or not? In doing so the middle option was removed and the remaining six categories were re-coded into two: Inadequate (responses 1 3) and adequate (responses 5 7) Table 18.1 shows the mean age of the two groups and Table 18.2 shows that the difference is statistically significant. Again, the implication of this finding is that overtime as prospective councillors come forward the issue of remuneration will be assume a greater significance for a generation not steeped in the notion of a public service ethos. While the age difference between the two groups may appear slight, three years, it does not detract from the fact that on average councillors who perceive the level of remuneration as inadequate are younger than those councillors who are satisfied wit the level of allowances. As the older age group cease to be involved as councillors this difference can only grow and produce a policy dilemma that future generations of policy-makers will have to resolve.

205 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 135 Table 18 ALLOWANCES Considering your responsibilities, do you think the allowance you receive as a councillor is adequate or not? % Not Adequate Adequate 20.4 Chart 3 ALLOWANCES Adequate Not Adequate Table 18.1 GROUP STATISTICS 13. Considering the corresponding responsibilities, do you think your allowance as a councillor is adequate or United Kingdom United Kingdom 37. How old are you? not? N Mean Std. Deviation Std. Error Mean Inadequate (years) Adequate

206 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 136 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Table 18.2 INDEPENDENT SAMPLES TEST Levene's Test for Equality of Variances t-test for Equality of Means United Kingdom F Sig. t df Sig. (2- tailed) 95% Confidence Mean Interval of the Differe Std. Error Difference nce Difference Lower Upper United 37. How old Kingdom are you? (years) Equal variances assumed Equal variances not assumed (The tables are explained below in footnote 1 ) What the tables and chart 3 shows is a spread of views about the adequacy of the allowances councillors receive, that spread was created by the variables available to the respondents. But, when age is taken into account a very clear and stark pattern emerges from the responses. Younger councillors, on average, find the allowances inadequate while older councillors, on average, find them to be adequate. What we are seeing here is a distinction between those at the beginning or middle or their working life for whom councillor allowances do not compare favourable to salaries available and those that may have finished employment, for whom allowances are not compared to other potential earnings. We may also be seeing a difference in the approach taken to council work by younger and older councillors with the former always relating their activities and resource investment to paid occupation. We get a slightly different view when looking at the international comparisons, which are set out in table 19. In producing this table a scale from 1 dissatisfied to 7 satisfied has been employed. The higher the mean the more satisfied, on average, councillors are with the remuneration regime. 1 Tables 18.1 and 18.2 are the results of a statistical testing of the mean difference between the two groups. In this case whether age was a factor in councillors perception of reward. The mean difference which is is the number of years between those that think rewards are inadequate and adequate. The heading Sig, in this case is.859 (given that it is greater than.05 we ignore the bottom line of data and focus on the top line). We then turn to the column headed Sig (2 tailed) and the figure is which is less than This, tells us that the difference in years, although appearing slight, is statistically significant. This is further reinforced by the end column where the range does not pass through zero which adds reliability to the finding in the previous column. What we can say, is that based on a statistic of t= , p<0.05, on average, younger councillors view rewards as inadequate.

207 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 137 Table 19 Considering the corresponding responsibilities, do you think your allowance as a councillor is adequate or not? ALLOWANCES Mean Poland 5.30 Czech Republic 4.85 Austria 4.57 Croatia 4.47 Norway 4.40 Belgium 4.37 Germany 4.33 Sweden 4.31 Spain 4.31 Switzerland 4.12 United Kingdom 4.05 France 3.83 Greece 3.74 The Netherlands 3.71 Italy 3.49 Israel 1.97 The UK is at the bottom of a cluster in the middle of the table but recoding a score of just over 4. Given a seven point scale, 4 is the middle point which might say something about the UK regime system. Interestingly, in the above table 96% of Israeli councillors and 26% in both France and Greece do not receive an allowance, so no surprise they are dissatisfied. In the Netherlands and Italy, however, 100% of members receive an allowance, yet are relatively dissatisfied with the remuneration received. The responses to questions about the allowance regime raise an important matter for policy-makers wishing to encourage larger numbers of young people to stand for council and the answer is clear: increase or change the allowance regime to properly reward members for the commitment they make. Maybe the time is ripe to consider the issue of full-time, salaried members. 8. Party Loyalty The party politicisation of local government makes it important to understand the relationship between the councillor and the party of which he or she is a member and the public he or she represents. The research sought to test the key reference point for the councillor by posing a hypothetical question that asked councillors how they would decide to vote come a difference of opinion between party, citizens and themselves on an issue. Table 20 and chart 4 display the responses to the question. Table 20 PARTY LOYALTY If a councillor is opposed to the party line on an issue, and the councillor is also opposed to public opinion on an issue, and the party line and public opinion are also in opposition, how should the councillor act? % Vote according to his/her own conviction 57.8 Vote according to the opinion of the party group 25.0 Vote according to the opinion of the voters 17.2

208 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 138 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Chart 4 PARTY LOYALTY Vote according to the opinion of the voters 17% Vote according to the opinion of the party group 25% Vote according to his/her own conviction 58% Initially, we see a clear display of what might be called a Burkean approach towards representation at the local level. The majority of councillors state that they vote according to their own opinion rather than the views expressed by the two other reference points provided in the question. On the face of it the responses challenge the idea that party politicisation has a negative effect on the ability of councillors to make decisions about issues before them based on their own assessments. More careful consideration is however necessary and we have to examine the interaction between councillors and the party group of which they are a member. Given that some 93% of councillors in England are members of one of the three main political parties it is highly likely that their own opinion coincides with that expressed by the party group particularly as councillors will have been present at group meetings, contributed to the debate and voted at any meeting. Thus, the councillors own opinion and the opinion of the party group are likely to be one and the same. Local representative democracy is not seen by the majority of councillors as necessarily based on expressing or voting for the views of local citizens. When we look at the responses we see that party loyalty and gender appear to be connected. Chart 5 shows responses to the question by gender.

209 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev % Chart 5 PARTY LOYALTY AND GENDER 60.00% 50.00% 40.00% 30.00% Male Female 20.00% 10.00% 0.00% Vote according to his/her own conviction Vote according to the opinion of the party group vote according to the opinion of the voters Further analysis shows that women and men act differently when it comes to the reference point for deciding how to vote. Women tend to be less individualistic than men and they are more inclined to vote for the views of the voter or the party group. But, a note of caution is needed as the issue is complicated by the way the question was asked as the place for voting was not specified and so when responding councillors will have made their own judgment about where a vote was taken. It is possible to vote in a group meeting, but be defeated in that meeting and then vote in other settings, such as council meetings, in accordance with the majority expressed in the group. Thus, councillors may have voted first in accordance with their own opinion and second with the group: what we may be seeing in the responses we received from female councillors is a reporting of the last place voted (after the group) and from males a reporting of the first place voted (the group). 9. Candidate Support The research explored how much support councillors received at election time from various organisations and individuals active within local communities. It did this to explore how close councillors were to the communities they represent and how that closeness, or otherwise, was displayed in the electoral process. Table 21 displays the responses received.

210 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 140 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Table 21 SUPPORT As a candidate in the last election, to what extent did you have the support of the following groups: % Your national party Your party wing/faction Your party at the local level National politician(s) An influential local person Trade union(s) Local business group(s) Women s organisation(s) Local media The Church Local (voluntary) association(s) Ethnic group(s) The direction of travel within the responses indicates that councillors overwhelmingly receive the most support at election time from their political parties, at various levels, except from national politicians. Indeed, party sources were the only actors that received a positive score as the direction of travel for all other actors was towards the negative. Taken with the party politicisation of local government and the high level of party representation on councils this finding is not a surprise. Indeed, it reinforces the view of local representative democracy as a place where party organisation, structure, finance and activity are key resources for the potential councillor. What the responses show is the distancing, at election time, of the councillor (and party candidate) from the very communities that they govern and represent. It may be that elections are a time when candidates and organisations deliberately separate from each other with the latter not wanting to be seen to actively support a particular party. Moreover, candidates may not wish to expose non-party organisations to the battlefield of local electoral politics. Thus, a deliberate distancing of politician from represented occurs. It is more likely however, that what we see in the responses is a natural separation of the councillor from active support from community groups at election time and that the work councillors undertake with a range of bodies does not manifest in active support during elections. The responses support the idea that elections are something that is the property of political parties and other organisations enter the fray at their own peril. Thus, civil society is distanced from electoral politics and this may partly explain low levels of engagement in local elections. 10. Motivations for Standing for Election The survey explored the various sources of motivation for councillors to stand for office. It did this by focusing carefully on the first time a candidate stood because what motivates an existing councillor to seek re-election, given their experiences of office and a political maturation process, can reasonably be thought to vary from the original source of motivation. Table 22 sets out the responses to a range of motivational factors that result in councillors first seeking office. Not at all Little Moderate Great Very great

211 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 141 Table 22 MOTIVATION How important were the following reasons in motivating you to stand for the council for the first time? % General interest in politics To highlight the needs of the group I represent To learn how local politics works To work for the political party I represent To control the administration The member allowances To make contacts and network To be held in high esteem To start a political career To influence specific issues As part of civic duty to engage oneself in council affairs Not important at all Of little importance Of moderate importance Of great importance Of utmost importance Political parties again feature in the responses and working for the party of which the councillor is a member is a clear motivating factor in first seeking office. So too does working for the group the councillor seeks to represent and this response is a companion to working for the party as the two sets of interests will come together for the candidate. There is also a strong ethos of public service displayed in the responses and a rejection of any self-interested motivations such as allowances or social status. It is apparent that the desire to influence the outcome of individual local issues or policy concerns is also a motivating factor. What we see, again not surprisingly, from the responses is a politically orientated motivation in standing for the first time, with party looming large in the considerations. But, standing for council for the first time, is not motivated by a desire to embark on a political career. It appears councillors do not see the council as a stepping stone to other levels of government or are motivated by advancement on the council. 11. Future Plans The idea that councillors do not see the council as a stepping stone to other levels of government is supported when the survey asked councillors about the plans they had for the future. Table 23 and chart 6 sets out the responses received to that question. Table 23 FUTURE PLANS What are you planning to do at the end of the present term of office? % I would like to continue as a councillor 68.3 I would like to continue my political career in a higher political office on the council 7.2 I would like to continue my political career in a higher political office at the regional or national level 4.7 I would like to leave politics 19.8

212 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 142 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Chart FUTURE PLANS I would like to continue as a councillor I would like to continue my political career in a higher political office on the council I would like to continue my political career in a higher political office at the regional or national level I would like to leave politics The majority of respondents intended to remain as councillors party and electorate permitting. With so many councillors intending to seek re-selection and election, the opportunities to refresh the existing pool of councillors with new entrants from different backgrounds depends on parties themselves selecting new candidates and inevitably de-selecting existing ones. It also rests with the voters going on to elect those candidates. The responses show however, a continual and strong commitment among existing councillors to public service and political activity and that is a positive feature for local democracy. 12. Reasons for Leaving The survey then went on to explore the reasons why those councillors that were intending to leave the council had decided to do so. Table 24 and chart 7 show the responses to the reasons available to councillors when asked why they were intending to stand down. Table 24 REASONS FOR LEAVING If you want to leave politics, could you please state why? No Yes % I want to concentrate on my professional occupation I want to work for a voluntary organisation I have done my civic duty Local politics is too time-consuming in relation to family or occupation I lack influence (myself, my party, or councils in general) I am too old I will move from the council area

213 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 143 Chart 7 REASONS FOR LEAVING No Yes I want to concentrate on my professional... I want to work for a voluntary organisation I have done my civic duty Local politics is too time-consuming in... I lack influence (myself, my party, or...) I am too old I will move from the council area What the responses indicate is that councillors intending to leave the council appear to be doing so to spend more time with their families (or their jobs). In other words, council duties are a time consuming set of responsibilities and maybe too demanding for some, given that the office is not full-time and paid in the same way as a salaried occupation. Although, leaving the council to concentrate on a professional occupation is not such a great motivator, so what we are seeing here is a reaction to the time demands of council work. Among the leaving councillors there is also a sense that they have fulfilled their civic duty and that it was time to move on to other things. It may be that the public service ethos identified above as a motivating factor to stand for council has a limited life-span. It also appears that a number of councillors feel that they are now too old to continue as a councillor, so contradicting the point made above in discussing future plans that it might be difficult to change the composition of the councillor population with so many intending to seek reelection. The contradiction is eased however, by remembering that the responses are from those that have indeed decided to step down and thus we are looking at a smaller group of members, for whom, age is a key factor. Conclusion A constant theme running through many of the responses is the strength of the relationship councillors have with their political parties and more specifically their party group on the council. Indeed, representing the party is a key factor for councillors and it is through this vehicle that a wider group or set of interests that the councillor focuses on are also represented and promoted. There is a noticeable distancing however, in the responses, of the councillor from the wider social world and while councillors clearly come from and perceive they represent that social world, they are not, as a body, as connected to it as would be expected in local government. Yet, there is still a strong element of public duty and public service ethos that is clear from the way councillors approach their responsibilities. Councillors have a tendency to look inwards towards the council rather than outwards towards the various communities and other public sector bodies within their areas, at least when responding to the questions presented to them in this survey. Indicated here is a disconnection between the perceptions councillors have about the influence of their own institution and the myriad of other public sector bodies that operate in the same wider networks within which councillors themselves also work. That perception may not always match the reality of the resources and policy-making power of organisations, other than councils, within governance networks which councillors appear not to recognise.

214 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 144 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence The dedication of councillors to their localities is emphasised by the fact that local government is not seen as a stepping stone to higher levels of government. The responses indicate the existence of a division of political labour with councillors seeing political service as being delivered within their locality and through local government, rather than at the national level. It is a sign of strong local government and politics that so many motivated to stand for office for political reasons, see local government as the place where they are committed to continue serving. October 2012 Written evidence from Dame Jane Roberts (CC 06) Summary The Councillors Commission s report, Representing the Future was published in December It addressed very similar issues to those that the Select Committee is currently investigating. A copy of Representing the Future has been made available to members of the Select Committee to accompany this submission as this is material that has already been published elsewhere, as in the guide for written statements to Select Committees. My submission will summarise therefore key issues pertinent to a number of areas listed in the Select Committee s Announcement of Inquiry. It will not cover all the deliberations of the Commission nor all its recommendations. Progress since the Councillors Commission is briefly covered. It is suggested that the role of councillors could usefully be considered within a wider framework, together with the role of other elected representatives. Background to the Commission 1. The Councillors Commission, that I chaired, was set up by Ruth Kelly, MP, then Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (CLG), in early It was asked to make recommendations regarding the incentives and barriers to: encouraging suitably able, qualified and representative people to serve as councillors; their retention and development once elected; and their being able to secure public interest and recognition for the work that they do. It was an independent and cross party review. 2. The review was prompted by concerns at CLG that councillors were very unrepresentative of the communities that they represented. At the time of our deliberations, only 4.1% of councillors were from ethnic minority backgrounds, only 29.3% were women, and only 13.5% were under 45. Younger councillors with a disability were few and far between. The most recent survey of councillors shows little change with representation by women stubbornly static, but the average age has increased to The work of the Commission took us to many different parts of England and Wales, listening to hundreds of people. We received over 200 submissions; we both commissioned research and reviewed existing research including the evidence internationally. 4. The considerations of the Councillors Commission took us wider than merely matters of, for example, support and remuneration to elected members. We felt that we could not useful recommendations without stepping back to consider wider changes that had taken place concerning local democracy and governance more generally in recent times. 5. We reported to Hazel Blears, MP, by then Secretary of State at CLG, in December 2007 with our conclusions, listing five principles for effective representation, and 61 recommendations in Representing the Future. The recommendations were grouped into four areas: making councillors central to local democracy; making the role of councillor more widely known and better appreciated; making it easier for everyone with the potential, regardless of background, to come forward and for a more diverse range of councillors to be elected; and making it easier for busy people to be councillors. 6. The Chair of the Commission met with the Chairman of the Conservative Party, the President of the Liberal Democrats and with the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party. Harriet Harman, MP, instigated the Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) Councillors Task Force towards the end of our deliberations. 7. The Government made its response to the Commission s report in July 2008, accepting most of our recommendations. Our first recommendation, that local authorities should be charged with a statutory duty to promote local democratic engagement, was central to the Communities in Control White Paper and was incorporated into legislation that received Royal Assent. It was later however repealed by the coalition government. Areas Highlighted in the Select Committee s Announcement of Inquiry 8. Role of councillors as leaders of communities and neighbourhoods 8.1 We came to the view that there were profound concerns about the relationship between the individual citizen and the state, characterised as one of disenchantment, disengagement and mutual incomprehension. Local councillors should be part of the solution to this democratic malaise rather than seen as part of the

215 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 145 problem which is too often the case, and a key link in the chain of governance. It is, after all, at the local level, that people are first most likely to be interested and get involved in decision making, perhaps by virtue of their children s schooling, by tenant participation or by interest in other local environment issues. This may lead to more formal roles as school governors, tenant leaders etc. Professor George Jones has stated, a participatory democracy can only be built at local level and the task of local government should be to foster the habit of citizenship. 8.2 Councillors have an added legitimacy by virtue of their election for a wider geographical area although they should recognise that others will also have legitimacy: we live in a more plural world. Place both the physical and social aspects of place remains key to our experience of life. Its importance is often underestimated. 8.3 We saw elected local representatives as the indispensable link between the public and decisions that have to be made in the collective interest. This does not preclude more direct participative means of democratic engagement indeed, representative democracy depends on participative democracy to inform and enrich it. Councillors act at the interface between representative and participative democracy. 8.4 We saw the modern councillor using a rich mixture of ways to link the different communities that she or he represents to formal decision making processes. Councillors need to look outwards into the community as well as inwards to the formal processes of the council. Their function is of two way translators, communicating public feelings into the council s priority setting and decision making structures, and explaining and making sense of council decisions and the reasons for them to the public. This does, of course, put a high premium on communication skills. 8.5 The Commission suggested a more specific starting point for a councillor role description that could then be adapted and developed by councils to suit local circumstances. 9. Recruitment and diversity of councillors 9.1 Unbalanced representation in councils compounds a sense that we are governed by a separate political class who look and talk very differently from ordinary people, that in turn distances people from an understanding of the political process and its importance, and can feed a destructive cynicism in politics. Professor Stephen Coleman, whom we quoted in the report, writes compellingly on this issue. The Commission s report argued on page 14 that descriptive representativeness is important both symbolically and substantively whereby different core interests can be fed directly into the democratic process. 9.2 The Commission s report goes into considerable detail about the reasons why more women, more people from a BME background, and more disabled people do not consider standing in local elections, are not selected and are not elected. In summary, there is no one reason but rather a combination of issues (notably a lack of awareness of the democratic process generally and more specifically how to get more involved, electoral arrangements, the culture of the political parties and local government, lack of confidence, time commitment and the anxieties about the possible impact on work and family life, attitude of employers, as well as the practicalities in terms of organisation, timing of meetings, lack of support). There was some evidence that it may well be more difficult to get selected than elected and this is obviously a crucial issue for the political parties to address. The Committee could consider the writings of Professor Gerry Stoker, in for example, Why Politics Matters. Making Democracy Work (2006 Palgrave MacMillan) whom I quoted a great deal when speaking about the Councillors Commission. His CLEAR model is useful for considering the constraints and prospects for participation in the democratic process: our own findings very much echoed his academic work. 9.3 Given that there are a range of reasons why relatively few women, people from a BME background, younger people and those who have a disability become councillors, so in turn, there is no one magic bullet that remedies the problem. I did however come to the view that it is not quite as difficult to attract a wide range of candidates as is often made out. What is however extraordinarily difficult is for there to be real determination and commitment, particularly on the part of those with influence, to bring about change. The focus and drive of local political leadership here is absolutely crucial. The tendency, however, of those in power to remain in power and only in the last resort to replace themselves, but then in their own likeness, should never be underestimated. 10. Skills, training and support for councillors 10.1 The skills demanded of councillors are complex: we listed listening; negotiating; probing and scrutinising; handling contradiction; lobbying; campaigning; community development; conflict resolution; mediation; and of course, decision making. Few individuals will have all these skills in equal measure, hence the usefulness of gauging the balance of skills across the council as a whole and across wards and divisions Local government has made considerably more headway over recent years than central government in recognising the need for and establishing training programmes. A number of councils have brought in innovative schemes, recognised by the national Member Development Charter scheme and annual awards. Training should be available in a range of areas including in approaches to community development. We recommended that personal development plans should be drawn up so that training tailored to individual development needs can be facilitated. There should be an explicit expectation that councillors will fulfil their

216 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 146 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence side of the bargain and take up such training opportunities. Formal accreditation to validate councillors acquisition of skills should be widely established We recommended that local authorities should meet specified minimum standards for support to councillors that would include administrative support for case work; research support for ward work; IT equipment for use at home or mobile; arrangements and publicity for advice surgeries; arrangements for child and dependent care cover; and social networking training and support. I understand that there is still considerable variation between councils in terms of the range and amount of support offered Remuneration of councillors is a vexed issue. The Commission s view, based on an overview of the evidence, was that there should be no financial disincentive to becoming a councillor rather than any financial incentive. We recommended a national framework of guiding principles for member allowances, suggesting a national minimum basic allowance for each type and size of authority, and a carer s allowance. 11. Practicalities of being a councillor There are a number of practical factors that can make it very difficult to become and remain a councillor: a lack of awareness about local democracy, what councils are, and how to become a councillor in the first place. The Commission examined this issue in greater depth as we were very concerned about the lack of understanding about local government and what councillors do, let alone about how to become a councillor. And in areas of England where there are counties and districts, it can be even more baffling. This led to our first and in my view, most important recommendation that local authorities should be charged with a statutory duty to facilitate local democratic engagement. The recommendation suggested means by which councils could pursue this duty using four tiers. The LGA has in recent years put considerable effort into publicising a wider range of people that stand to be councillors but there is a great deal more that councils themselves and political parties could do; time commitment, both perceived and actual, and the possible consequences for family life and employment. We recommended that councils should adopt modern business and meeting processes which seek to remove potential barriers to participation. These should include accessible meeting times (not necessarily in the day, and with specified end times), efficient chairing, the use of modern technology where appropriate, support for childcare, and concise paperwork. We felt strongly that councillors should be able to work in a variety of other employments, have domestic commitments, and be a councillor; and employers attitude. Despite the requirement that employers should make reasonable provision for employees who are councillors, there is a significant minority who do not. In current austere times, this may well be exacerbated. Better engagement of local authorities with employers and a better perception of the value of serving in local government is a necessary part of addressing this issue. 12. Since the Commission 12.1 Representing the Future s principles, and most of its recommendations, were accepted by the government in The report was very well received by local government commentators, academics and many in local and central government although others seemed to find some of its recommendations more radical than perhaps they were willing to go along with. Political parties were not interested enough, a problem then and, I suspect, now. The recommendations were directed at a number of different players: central government, the LGA and the Improvement and Development Agency (IDeA) as it then was, local authorities, political parties, employers, public service broadcasters and Ofcom Members of the Commission met for the final time in April 2009 to examine how much progress had been made. Reasonable progress had been made in some areas for example: by central government in its inclusion in legislation of a statutory duty to promote democracy; and by the LGA and IDeA in its communications and national campaigns to promote the role of a councillor. I spoke at numerous events up and down the country about the Commission s work up to mid Since then, however, there have been numerous changes of council control, a change in the LGA leadership, and of course, a new government in Westminster I have always been clear that in order to effect substantial change, determined and persistent leadership of the issues raised by the Commission within local and central government and within the main political parties is required. It is the political will to effect change that is so important: it is not, I believe now, hard to make a difference to raising the profile of councillors, to recruiting a more diverse group, and to supporting councillors better. The debate nationally has, however, been overshadowed by an almost exclusive focus on the merits or demerits of directly elected mayors.

217 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev The need for wider debate Having thought over the years about the issues that are now raised by the Select Committee s Inquiry, I suggest that the role of councillors is not most usefully examined in isolation from other elected representatives (MPs, MSPs in Scotland, Assembly Members in Wales and London and, to a lesser extent, MEPs). Sir Michael Lyons, in his masterful report from the Lyons Inquiry, talked of local government being part of a single system of government. Yet there is little debate about the roles of representatives at different layers of governance: who can most effectively do what; how can elected representatives at different levels best work together? Any one area may, for example, be represented by five people (a councillor at parish, district, and county level, a Westminster MP and a MEP) but how much communication do they have with one another? How does this make sense to an individual constituent? MPs have been encouraged in recent years to spend more time in their constituencies but they will often feel under pressure to respond directly to constituents on matters that come within the remit of local government. Is this helpful? What is the nature of the relationship between an MP, a leader or a directly elected mayor, particularly with regard to issues of place? May 2012 Written evidence from Sunderland City Council (CC 10) This submission will highlight: 1. The centrality of community leadership and the role of Councillors to the Sunderland Way of Working the City Council s overarching framework for public service reform, organisational development and local governance. 2. The progress of SCC s Community Leadership Programme (CLP) designed explicitly to develop the role of Councillors as community leaders, change agents and partners in the transformation of social outcomes and public service effectiveness in the city. 3. The potential for further development of these themes as a response to encouraging evidence so far, and as part of SCC s evolving programme for service delivery and governance in future. Section 1 Introduction to the Community Leadership Programme 1.1 Sunderland City Council has driven its work supporting the role of Councillors through its Community Leadership Programme (CLP). The CLP was designed in 2009 as part of SCC s strategy to deal with the challenges of future funding constraint, changing citizen demand and a need to improve social and economic outcomes in the City. At root, the CLP represents a belief that elected members must be at the heart of Sunderland s strategy for social and economic renewal, but that to fulfil their potential as community leaders, they need a new type of support and capacity building, and a new set of tools to lead. 1.2 Accordingly, the CLP incorporates a variety of support interventions and development initiatives under three broad strategic directions: (a) (b) (c) Engaging Councillors more effectively as community leaders creating new support structures that can improve communication and responsiveness, build stronger bonds of trust, and empower Councillors at the community front line. Engaging Councillors in the development of Responsive Local Services (RLS) creating new governance and engagement mechanisms that support Council services that get closer to citizens and are more directly responsive to the needs of people and place. Engaging Councillors as partners in local economic growth developing the means to engage Councillors in the City s Economic Masterplan growth framework, particularly around the potential of citizens and communities to develop new SME s and public service spin-outs. About the City and its Councillors 1.3 Sunderland has 75 Councillors, broken down as per section 3 below. The City is administered through five area committees, each of which corresponds to one of the City s regeneration areas : West, East and North Sunderland, Coalfields and Washington areas. Each area committee is made up of between four to six wards. [see section 3 for more information] 1.4 The City of Sunderland has faced huge social and economic challenges since the de-industrialisation of the 1980s. The Sunderland Way of Working has been developed in part with this legacy in mind, setting out a pragmatic and localised response to the fiscal and demand challenges of the current context. Central to this is the need to leverage resources already within sight of the Council, shift emphasis from the Civic Centre to areas and neighbourhoods, and improve the responsiveness of services and communication. The CLP has driven these shifts through tapping into the capacity and desire of Councillors to do more to build the resilience and assets of their communities.

218 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 148 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Community Leadership in Practice: some headline figures 1.5 Sunderland City Council has placed considerable political emphasis and goodwill on supporting Councillors to be at the forefront of strategies for social and economic renewal in the City. In the following pages, we detail how this has worked in response to specific areas of focus highlighted in the CLG Select Committee call for evidence. Three years after inception, the CLP retains real momentum, and is a focal point for much of the Council s strategy for public service reform and community wellbeing. Yet we also believe that the story so far is one of vindication for SCC s focus on the role of Councillors as key agents of change, and advocates for a new way of working in the City. Some snapshot figures illustrate this (see also Appendix 2): (a) Most recent survey figures show that 91% of Councillors consider officer support services good or excellent. This is a rise of 26 percentage points on the 2009 baseline figure. (b) Frequent use of ICT amongst Councillors has risen from 35% in 2009 to a recent highpoint of 97% in large part due to the role of account managers supporting this transition. (c) Individual Account Managers assigned to Councillors as part of the CLP have returned a satisfaction rating (rated good or excellent ) of 94% for accessibility and 91% for speed and quality of response to member queries. 1.6 SCC has achieved these notable rises in member satisfaction and capability through an open, reflective approach that has been responsive to the needs and aspirations of elected members themselves. We have deliberately sought to break down the concepts of member satisfaction and community leadership into manageable, measureable constituent elements (see Appendices 1 and 2). This has resulted in an ongoing programme that eschews top-down change programme implementation in favour of a cumulative, evolutionary process, in which momentum has been built around meaningful change on a range of issues that Councillors themselves care about. We continue to be open to new ideas and the potential of improving Member-Officer relationships, and, ultimately, supporting Councillors to play a transformational role in their communities. The following pages set out specific developments against the points of focus set out in the Select Committee call for responses. Section 2 The Role of Councillors as Leaders of Communities and Neighbourhoods 2.1 This has been an area of considerable focus for Sunderland. The belief that Councillors are community leaders provides the normative basis for the city s Community Leadership Programme, and we have achieved demonstrable success in supporting Councillors to fulfil this role. A strong over-arching framework has driven this process, and some small yet significant interventions have helped to generate buy-in and enthusiasm. 2.2 As we detail in the following pages, these interventions were designed to address issues Councillors themselves identified as barriers to acting as community leaders. As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has shown many members feel it is hard to achieve...because they are marginalised in decision making, lacking the information they need to shape and influence broader plans, and unable to act directly on many very local concerns Member surveys show the impact of shifting the focus to community leadership and directly addressing these issues. Our 2009 member survey indicated that 65% of members thought that officer support was good or excellent. 3 The implementation of the CLP raised this percentage to 85% in the short term, with most recent figures indicating a 91% good or excellent rating. We believe that placing community leadership at the heart of the Council s corporate strategy and way of working is a key reason for this. Our experience indicates that the following were key: (a) A clear and obvious focus on community leadership as a key functioning of the Sunderland Way of Working. This has clearly linked the role of Councillors to some significant developments in organisational reform and local public service decentralisation. (b) An emphasis on collaboration and openness working with elected members to break down good community leadership into understandable and actionable interventions. These have been measured and published as a Member Satisfaction Flow Chart, which measures and tracks member satisfaction against these specific support mechanisms. The Flow Chart has become a key indicator of progress within the CLP, with the member satisfaction survey itself designed around these issues. (c) A sustained drive to improve Councillor-officer relationships and create effective partnerships to facilitate better community leadership. An upsurge in goodwill as a result of the programme has been leveraged to push the CLP outside of the traditional comfort zone of Councillors and officers, allowing the Council to progress major reforms to responsive local public services in partnership with Councillors. 2 James, S and Cox, E (2007). Ward Councillors and Community Leadership: a future perspective Joseph Rowntree Foundation online at 3 This survey was conducted approximately six months after CLP kick-off activities such as workshops on member role definition. Informal estimates suggest the figure would have been closer to 40% 50% before this.

219 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 149 Section 3 Recruitment and Diversity of Councillors 3.1 Sunderland City Council is a metropolitan authority serving a population of c 280,000 people. The Council has 75 Councillors divided into 25 Wards. The composition of the Council at May 2012 is: Labour 64 Members Conservative 8 Independent The Council has experienced a major turnover of Councillors in recent years. 60% of Councillors have been in office for less than five years, 80% for less than 10 years and only seven for longer than 20 years. We have welcomed 30 new Councillors in the last three years. (40% of our total Councillors.) Composition of the Council 3.3 Some key indicators are as follows: (a) Approaching 40% of our Councillors are women. (b) We have no Councillors from minority populations. This is similar to the wider regional picture where 98.8% of Councillors are of white origin. (c) We have three Independent Councillors at the moment and have probably peaked in this respect for the time being. (d) Sunderland has 10% fewer Councillors in full-time, part-time of self-employment than the North East region or England as a whole. We have 10 15% fewer from professional or technical backgrounds, but 30% higher than the national average from executive or management backgrounds. (e) The city has many more Members from local government (including associated organisations and networks) backgrounds. This is 50% higher than the broader North East region, and 150% higher than England. We do, however, have 25% fewer Members than the national average from private sector occupations. (f) In terms of higher-level qualifications, our Councillors score 20% lower than the North East region, but at GCSE/A-level we are nearly 50% higher than both regional and national averages. (g) The city has a much higher young Councillor (under 25) figure than either the region or England. 46% of our Councillors are over 60 (likely to fall as a % after the current election), as compared with an average 64% within the North East, and 59% nationally. Section 4 Skills, Training and Support for Councillors 4.1 SCC has placed great emphasis on skills, training and support, with several key mechanisms put in place since At the core of our approach has been an understanding that Councillors must be given the right tools to become community leaders, but that our understanding of what these tools are must move with the times, and be responsive to the needs of Councillors themselves. Developing stronger bonds of trust between Councillors and officers has been key to this process. 4.2 The impact of these member customer care initiatives in Sunderland has been very positive with aforementioned satisfaction ratings for officer support reaching 91%. Deploying time and resources on providing better support has led to higher satisfaction and greater trust between members and officers, which has allowed the CLP to build momentum, take sensitive decisions more quickly and move into exciting and radical new territory. Our experience indicates that the following facets were key: 4.3 A collaboratively designed role definition for Councillors. This tapped into and developed Councillors understanding of what a community leader should represent, how they could achieve this in practice, and what support and tools they needed to get there. Defining this role was a cost-free foundation that identified future service improvements and built confidence in the process. 4.4 A bespoke service directory for Councillors. This is an electronic directory that provides first point of contact officers for member enquiries. It was developed according to members own in tray priorities, and designed with quick response in mind to ensure that Councillor queries are directed to the right person first time around. Key Council staff have been inducted and trained according to these priorities, with an emphasis on responsiveness and empathy to Councillor needs. A 95% good or excellent satisfaction rating indicates the success of this initiative. 4.5 A Member Satisfaction Survey based on key themes identified by the aforementioned Member Satisfaction Flow Chart. This electronically conducted survey has achieved returns of between 62 and 66% across (five surveys have been conducted so far), and is designed to take the pulse of Councillors against the key issues they have themselves identified. Findings are analysed at granular level and form an evidence base for following phases of reform. 4.6 The introduction of designated Account Managers as a key part of improving responsiveness and member-officer relationships (see Appendix 5). AMs are officers who have volunteered (over and above their

220 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 150 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence day jobs within the Council) to be a first point of contact to Councillors, providing a range of capacity development, communications, opinion testing and support functions. SCC currently has over 50 account managers who are largely partnered with Councillors on a 1:2 basis. AMs are considered very valuable by Councillors especially newer members who are building new relationships within the Council and community. A recent survey recorded 94% satisfaction ( good or excellent ), including a 91% satisfaction rating for speed and responsiveness to member enquiries. 4.7 A strong focus on ICT capacity development. AMs have enabled a step change in the use of ICTs by Councillors helping to increase the percentage regularly using ICTs from 35% to 97%. Electronic Ward Bulletins have improved access to information and current events within Sunderland s wards, with 75% of Councillors regularly using them, and 75% of those Councillors reporting good or excellent service levels. Electronic Ward Bulletins are a fundamental part of building trust and capacity of Councillors giving them information on their wards before they hear it elsewhere, and from an accurate source. Emphasis on this area is in direct response to a perceived and reported lack of awareness about key happenings on the doorstep. More integrated use of ICT allows this information to be disseminated quickly and accurately to Councillors. Section 5 Localising Decision-Making to Divisions, Ward and Neighbourhoods and Oversight, Facilitation and Accountability 5.1 The Sunderland Way of Working has enshrined a commitment to the meaningful decentralisation of local public services to areas and neighbourhoods. The agenda is being rolled out in practice under the banner of Responsive Local Services, which has transformed the governance and delivery of environmental (street scene) services in the city, and is currently being rolled out in other service areas. Fundamental to this is the desiloing of traditional services into people and place units, the governance of which will take place through Responsive Local Service Boards (analogous to the current Area Committee structure) populated by Councillors, officers and citizens. 5.2 SCC has recently completed a fundamental review (completed in March 2012, see Appendix 3) of its Executive and Committee arrangements to support these processes, and has engaged independent peer reviewers to facilitate the exercise. Following all-party support, Annual Council is being asked to consider the following radical changes to local decision-making and governance. (a) Consolidation of the role of Area Committees as local hubs of community leadership and service redesign. (b) Introduction of Area Boards for place and people as the focus of de-siloing Council services and decentralised governance. Area boards are effectively the working hubs of decentralised service arrangements. They give local Councillors a direct, practical influence on a wide range of services, and bring together Councillors, officers and residents to take collaborative decisions on neighbourhood issues. (c) Active encouragement of area boards to recommend bottom-up changes to current service standards and approaches which we intend to lead to tangible improvements in policy and practice. This places huge emphasis on the role of Councillors as catalysts and change agents in the Council s relationship with citizens and communities. (d) Establishment of a clearer relationship between Cabinet, Area Committees and Area Boards to aid the introduction and bedding in of aforementioned area arrangements. (e) Faster and more effective decision-making (and a freeing up of local area budgets) on local budget determination as part of radically improving responsiveness to citizens and Councillors at the front line. 5.3 Creating Local Area Boards for neighbourhood/ward level public service delivery is central to the next phase of the Community Leadership Programme and the Sunderland Way of Working. The intention is for Area Boards to become the focal point for information and insight into micro-local issues, a hub of relationships and decision-making at the local level, and a vehicle for member-officer interaction and a new generation of locally responsive public services. 5.4 Local Area Boards shift the Councillor role from scrutiny and performance review, to direct involvement in setting the pace and changing standards and service model at the local level. Integration of existing annual State of the City with new State of the Area public debates will be a key part of ensuring that citizens voices are reflected through this process in multiple ways. Section 6 Strategic Leadership, Governance and Responsibilities 6.1 The City Council s Sunderland Way of Working represents a uniquely local way of working, utilising the resources the city has at its disposal, and creating a means through austerity and an evolution of public service arrangements with Councillors in a leading role. We have to date deliberately underplayed our considerable progress in this area, wanting to under-claim and over-deliver on a programme that is vital to the future wellbeing of Sunderland s communities. 6.2 Nevertheless, the changes in budget allocation, staffing and organisational structure that have arisen as a result of the spending review and internal change mechanisms are profound. The Council has achieved 88

221 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 151 million worth of efficiency savings over two years the front loaded element of a four year mandate to save 125 million. During that period, non-school local authority posts have been reduced from 8,100 to 6,800 without a single voluntary or enforced redundancy. 6.3 We have taken calls to achieve more for less very seriously, and see Councillors and community leadership as fundamental to achieving this. We believe that we have helped to achieve not only service parity, but a step change in quality through this period, using the crisis as an opportunity to develop a more collaborative form of strategic leadership with better member-councillor relationships at the core. Community Leadership in a Regional Context 6.4 Sunderland City Council is in position to play a leading role developing community leadership and the role of Councillors in the wider North East region. Our public and political profile in the region is high, partly on the back of notable economic success stories (new investment in the Nissan manufacturing plant, for example) and some landmark developments in public infrastructure (securing Department of Transport funding for a new 82.5 million Wear bridge connecting the City with the A19 corridor). We are keen to use this raised platform to openly discuss and develop the future of community leadership, as a recent programme review by the RSA s 2020 Public Services Hub (see appendix 4) makes clear. 6.5 Cllr Paul Watson is current chair of the Association of North East Councils (ANEC), and the executive is active in a range of policy debates around local governance, economic growth and community development through organisations such as the Centre for Cities and the RSA. The legacy of focusing on community leadership and building trust between Councillors and officers is a working culture that we believe is now collaborative by default. SCC s joint-leadership team works on the basis of articulating shared problems and developing collaborative means of solving them from the outset. Early information, a joint mandate and a commitment to bringing people together in a shared space are vital to the success of the CLP and the Sunderland Way of Working. This shift in mindset has driven tangible change and a much more rapid ideasto-practice journey, creating a collaborative, problem-solving atmosphere from a baseline of siloed decisionmaking and vested interest. Section 7 Conclusion and Invitation 7.1 Sunderland City Council has put the role of Councillors firmly at the centre of its strategy for local service devolution and improvement, its collaborative agenda for local growth, and its corporate strategy for the evolution of a 21st century North East urban Council. Evaluation (both internal and external) of the Community Leadership Programme indicates significant improvement of Councillor-member relationships, significant increase in the ability of Councillors to respond to local issues with speed and accuracy, and a shift in mindset towards collaborative working that is beginning to pervade the entire organisation. Our aim has been to close the loop through planning, design, review and implementation to ensure collaborative working at the top of the organisation through shared Councillor-executive leadership, and shared problem solving and service accountability at the front line. What we have learnt is that achieving this is about delivering on tangible, manageable and personalised elements of change, the cumulative effect of which has been to build trust and enable faster movement on some previously intractable issues for the Council and its residents. 7.2 We believe that this focus on the role of Councillors in the community has catalysed positive change that would have been hitherto unthinkable. We would like to invite members of the Communities and Local Government Select Committee to visit Sunderland and observe the impact of the CLP and attendant changes to local responsive services within the city s neighbourhoods. We would be delighted to give further (written or oral) evidence on this subject as we look to develop Sunderland City Council s role as an advocate for community leadership and an observatory of good practice within the region and beyond. May 2012 Written evidence from Local Government Association (CC 11) The Local Government Association is here to support, promote and improve local government. We will fight local government s corner and support councils through challenging times by focusing on our top two priorities: representing and advocating for local government and making the case for greater devolution; and helping councils tackle their challenges and take advantage of new opportunities to deliver better value for money services.

222 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 152 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 1. Summary The role of councillors is changing. As more powers are devolved to local communities and neighbourhoods, ward councillors are more able to play active roles in their communities, so making a real impact on people s lives. It is not just the ward role that is changing. Council leaders are increasingly focused beyond authority boundaries, looking at conurbations and sub- regions. And councillors in cabinet roles are focusing not just on what is directly delivered, but on local public services as a whole. The role is therefore becoming more demanding and expectations are rising. There is also a desire for councillors to be more representative of their places and for more people from all walks of life to become councillors. The LGA welcomes this opportunity to explore how the changes to the role of councillor could be an impetus to make the role more appealing, accessible and better understood, thus encouraging more people to become councillors. There are challenges to making this happen yet these are not insurmountable. They require a step change in how we support councillors. We need to recognise the vast range of skills and knowledge that councillors bring to councils, and support councillors to recognise and develop their talents. For some councillors, the demands on their time are the biggest hurdle and it is often felt that it is not possible to hold the position and have a full-time job. However, we need a growing recognition that councillors time is limited as it is a voluntary activity and not an alternative to employment. We as a sector need to make the best use of councillors skills and knowledge within this time constraint. We also see the public attitude toward politics, 4 coupled with the lack of awareness of the role of local politicians, as a key barrier for new people to get involved. We need to improve the recruitment of councillors, use their time and skills better and to support them better these are mutually supportive elements to reinvigorating local politics. 2. Background We are at a pivotal moment for local councils. Strong leaders are needed to navigate the challenges of severe financial constraints and seize the opportunities of central government reforms of public services. There is a real opportunity for us to realise our ambition for councils to be truly at the heart of local communities delivering and commissioning better public services. In this time of austerity, we will also need to be even more ambitious when it comes to reshaping services in the future. Local government is only ever as vibrant, effective and relevant as the people elected to run it. We need councillors who are capable, energetic and engaged, with both a passion for change and a commitment to the local people they are seeking to represent. Ensuring that councils better represent their electorate is not simply a case of encouraging more diversity in terms of age, gender or ethnicity, although that does play a part in making councils more relevant. We need different kinds of people willing to stand for election to give our electorate real choice. Councillors are crucial to the LGA s shared vision for local government. We need to ensure our members are bold and ambitious leaders, equipped to tackle the challenges facing their communities: reinvigorating local governance, ensuring strong democratic accountability, supporting local government to make a difference, to deliver and to be trusted. Effective political leadership is at the heart of effective democracy. We are committed to supporting and developing the councillors on whose shoulders this rests. From the Leadership Academy, our longest standing support programme from which over 2,000 councillors from almost every council in the country have graduated, to Next Generation, the only national support programme for councillors developed within party traditions, we have a range of opportunities to support members in their changing role and throughout their career. We also foster strong alumni networks. 3. The Role of the Councillor is Changing Pressure on public finances, a rising demand for services and increasing expectations from service users is driving a sea change in the way the state and its citizens interact. Seen through the lens of public services, this brings together a demand for greater efficiency of delivery, with higher expectations of service quality and outcomes. This entails a fundamental rethink in the way public services are delivered and how local communities and neighbourhoods are involved in that delivery. Meeting these challenges needs a strong link between the state and other service providers civil society groups, the private sector, social enterprises etc and the users of these services. Councillors have the democratic legitimacy to undertake this role and ensure that public services, regulatory activity and asset management are properly held to account. This is particularly important given national and local trends to localise decision-making and service delivery. We need recognition that there is something unique about holding any democratically elected role that sets the office holder apart from other public servants. 4 The July 2011 Veracity Index compiled by Ipsos MORI showed politicians to be the least trusted profession.

223 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 153 Linking services and their users is undertaken both through formal structures (for those members with executive responsibility) and community-based activity. The latter will be particularly important in coming years and it is here we see the future role of councillors being played out. This has implications for the strategic leadership role of councillors. Council leaders will be focused not just on their authorities but beyond their boundaries such as to cities and regions, sharing best practice, information and strategic vision. Cabinet members will also be looking not just at what is directly delivered, but at local public services as a whole. All councillors need leadership skills for their ward, divisions and neighbourhoods. They might become, in effect, cabinet members for their ward. 3.1 The role of councillors as leaders of communities and neighbourhoods Success as leaders will depend on leading and convening the many groups that make up local communities whether voluntary and community organisations, Small and Medium Enterprises, faith groups, groups of service users or others, and making sure that the needs of seldom heard groups are included in the decisions about their local public services and neighbourhoods. Councillors have the democratic mandate to convene conversations across their wards and divisions. Councillors act as brokers to bring together those with common interests to make progress on shared aims and act as the link between local groups and the council. Councillors must have the deep knowledge of their communities that allows them to represent local people s needs effectively: they know who the people with most need are and will understand them as people rather than customers or problems. At the same time, councillors must balance the needs of individuals and groups across often diverse communities to ensure that services are delivered in the best way to achieve better local outcomes. As public services become more joined up through, for example, Health and Wellbeing Boards and Community Budgets approaches, effective representation of local people will become even more important. A councillor s local knowledge and understanding is going to be critical to the development of responsive, effective and accountable services. Councillors will increasingly need to influence other organisations and service providers to ensure their residents receive services that meet their needs and help them realise their local aspirations. This calls for a different kind of leadership and the LGA s Next Generation, Leadership Academy and Leeds Castle Leadership programmes help councillors develop the appropriate skills. Good councillors know that residents do not just present public services with problems to be solved, but have the abilities to help find and deliver solutions. Councillors have a track record in developing solutions with local people not just for them. This has been seen through initiatives such as Hampshire County Council s person-centred social care services and the current Troubled Families work. The LGA is supporting initiatives such as the national challenge and learning network for the whole place projects to help embed these practices more widely. Councillors will be increasingly called on to play a development role in their communities and neighbourhoods as more local people become involved with service delivery through new provisions such at the Community Right to Challenge and Assets of Community Value. Good councillors have been working with communities for years to include them in service design and delivery and asset management, as is demonstrated in the LGA s Doing something Big 5 and Empowering Communities 6 publications, and the LGA is working with councillors through programmes such as Keep it REAL: Councils at the heart of their communities to help spread good practice and raise the capacity of councillors across the country. 3.2 Localising decision-making to divisions, wards and neighbourhoods We are aiming to rebalance power from the centre to localities through mechanisms such as the Localism Act 2011; Local Government Resource Review; National Planning Policy Framework; Health and Wellbeing Boards and others. The LGA believes this necessarily involves a revitalised local democracy that devolves decision-making to the most local level: nearly twice as many people feel they have the potential to make a difference at a local level than do at a national level. 7 Greater devolution of decision-making will provide more opportunities for councillors to exercise their strategic leadership and facilitation skills to ensure that local decisions such as Neighbourhood Plans are made with an understanding of the wider needs of the locality as a whole. For example, councils at times face local opposition to economic development that would benefit the area as a whole. Councillors have an important role to play in facilitating conversations between residents, officers, developers and other interested parties to help secure outcomes that will meet local needs and drive local economic growth. Even greater devolution of power to the councillor can demonstrate to people and their communities that they have the potential to make a difference in their localities. 5 Available at 6 Available at 7 Hansard s Audit of Political Engagement 9

224 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 154 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Councillors are already well versed in including their residents in local decision-making through a variety of methods, for example: The London Borough of Lewisham has 18 ward-based assemblies, with over 13,000 people attending meetings between 2008 and Councillors play a key role in representing community views back to the council and taking on case work arising from issues identified. Westminster City Council s councillors each have a budget of 50,000 to spend in their ward as part of the Neighbourhood Funds scheme. This allows councillors to help their residents address local issues and priorities. South Somerset District Council has run their Community Forums as Opportunity Events, using participatory budgeting to increase the number of people who can influence local decision-making. Newcastle City Council s Let s Talk About Newcastle events aim to involve local people in a more engaging, accessible and ongoing conversation about council policy decisions. The events have reached four times as many people as would normally respond to a council consultation exercise. Hertfordshire s locality budget scheme launched in 2009 gives each elected member of the County Council 10,000 to spend in their division on worthwhile projects in their community that promote social, economic or environmental wellbeing. Applications for funding can be submitted by community groups and organisations. In 2011 this scheme was expanded to allow each local member to allocate 90,000 funding for local highway issues, making a total of 100,000 each in total 7.7 million not controlled by the Cabinet. The LGA supports councillors to find and share examples of good practice including through our online Knowledge Hub and Leadership Academy programmes, helping to improve the capacity of councillors to support local decision-making in their wards, divisions, and neighbourhoods. New ways of working such as Neighbourhood Budgets can make leadership of place contested space for councillors as traditional power relationships shift to a more complex, influence-based model. We believe councillors should be at the heart of Neighbourhood Budgets. The new provisions in the Localism Act 2011 for councils to apply to the Secretary of State to take on other local public functions has the potential to see more powers transferred to locally democratically-elected representatives. This will increase the accountability to local people and further strengthen councillors relationships with and responsibilities to their divisions, wards and neighbourhoods. 3.3 Strategic leadership, governance and responsibility Since the Lyons report there has been an increasing recognition that the core challenge for councillors is leadership of place. Councillors have a unique knowledge of their area because they are elected to represent a specific place. Most public services, whilst geographically located, address specific needs and are delivered in specific ways. Councillors, with their focus on both their ward/division and the wider local authority on which they serve, are able to focus how those services impact on citizens and communities. The councillor s expertise will be their local community and local place. At the same time, some councillors will be able to utilise personal professional expertise in a way that serves their community effectively but that does not necessarily result in as great a ward focus as their colleagues. As part of a team, councils should be able to ensure all councillors skills and knowledge are used to serve the local community. Councillors can also help lead and mediate conversations in communities about how a place might evolve. The key agendas facing communities, such as public safety or a healthy local economy, are not the domain of any single public service. Councillors can use their democratic mandate to bring together both public and private agencies with local people to see how best to meet those challenges. That role operates both at a very local level ( cabinet member for your ward ), but also more strategically across the whole authority and increasingly on many agendas across a group of authorities. Leadership beyond place and local authority boundaries is something that councillors now have a stronger focus on as we look to local economic regeneration issues that cannot be contained to a single authority. Councils have a long and honourable tradition of driving economic growth in their localities. While the institutional landscape has changed recently with the emergence of local enterprise partnerships (LEPs), councils remain key to growth, as evidenced in our Local Growth Campaign launched last year. 8 A key theme for the LGA this year is adult social care an area that highlights how councillors can dramatically impact people s lives and future generations both in their place and also through national policy debate. With recognition of this strategic role, people and communities will see the impact they can have on the way public services are delivered and on their local community as a whole. 8 More information is available at ARTICLE-TEMPLATE

225 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 155 Councillors who take on these strategic roles will necessarily have less time to dedicate to their ward work again the team dynamic will impact where councillors can support each other to make sure that the strategic and local needs are met by the team as a whole. The LGA works with the Centre for Public Scrutiny, which leads on the issues of scrutiny and overview. For a fuller examination of issues, please see: 4. The Recruitment and Diversity of Councillors The benefits of representative democracy are not solely achieved through demographic diversity. Local government benefits from councillors life experiences that reflect the experiences of the local community. At a time when councils are being asked to work in new and innovative ways, councillors can offer a fresh insight into the challenges facing councils. That resource of experience and knowledge should not be overlooked. There is no one-size-fits-all councillor and each will bring their own expertise to best serve their community. Whether it is from voluntary work or through skills from their working life which are increasingly from a professional, managerial and private sector background the value that this extra expertise and experience can give should not be underestimated. 4.1 Recruitment 93% of councillors in England represent one of the three main political parties this means that we must have an understanding of those political processes to understand issues around recruitment. The different parties have their own methods for encouraging people to stand, selecting candidates, as well as supporting their members and colleagues. These processes will reflect the parties values and principles and will often also have local elements to reflect local needs and challenges. There are also a substantial number of independent councillors or councillors who stand for a smaller political party. Standing as an independent has its own strengths but carries additional challenges both in terms of campaigning as well as after being elected where these councillors cannot draw on the support of a party process, but look to the various independent networks in existence to support them in developing their role. 4.2 Barriers Information about what discourages people from standing is anecdotal fundamentally it is difficult to consult people about a decision that they did not make. However, we can draw out three areas for discussion: The practical barriers Councillors spend, on average, 23 hours per week on council/political business, with eight % spending more than 40 hours a week. Yet for the majority of councillors this is a voluntary role, with no salary but with basic expenses covered, and some allowances for time spent in council meetings. This means it is not an alternative to full time work and those with family or voluntary commitments for example have to balance competing demands on their time. Travel and the timing of council meetings are also often cited as barriers. The LGA feels that councils should resolve this individually as it is for each council to decide the best way to work with councillors regarding council meetings. However, we can see a greater role for councillors outside the council offices and within their communities Public opinion towards politics We are currently facing a crisis of public confidence in politics and politicians, but effective political leadership is at the heart of effective democracy. The LGA has a range of political leadership support offers for councillors to support them to be confident politicians and to be able to be champions for the sector as well as for political leadership. We are committed to supporting and developing the councillors on whose shoulders this rests. Councillors are crucial to our shared vision for local government. We need to ensure our members are bold and ambitious leaders: reinvigorating local governance, ensuring strong democratic accountability, supporting local government to make a difference, deliver and be trusted Public knowledge of local government Awareness of local government generally varies by place, but local government is often thought to have an important effect on people s lives; public awareness of local councils is above that of many other political institutions. On the other hand, there is disparate awareness of various types of councils and the services they run. Similarly, councillors are considered to have an important role in local public services, but few people say they know much about what they do and fewer still have actually met a councillor. Public knowledge of local government and the role of local politicians is patchy at best. It is understandable then that many people have never considered being a councillor simply because they do not know much (if anything) about the role.

226 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 156 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 4.3 Be a Councillor campaign 9 The LGA believes that increasing the pool of talent from which councillors are elected is a key challenge for local government. Only by encouraging the brightest stars to stand for election can we ensure that councils are able to do the best for their communities. We need plenty of high-quality prospective councillors ready and willing to work hard and make a difference to their local communities. The LGA is encouraging everyone to play their part in talent spotting actively looking out for committed, enthusiastic people who could make great councillors. We have been working with councillors, those involved in the formal selection process, and also active party members keen to initiate change. They all have an important role to play. There has been a considerable amount of work with the political parties to find ways to encourage more people from a range of backgrounds to stand to be councillors in ways that reflect the parties values and traditions. To raise public awareness the LGA has produced a free toolkit of materials for councils to use, or edit to fit their local campaigns. Ultimately, it is the electorate that decides who becomes a councillor, but we can all help to raise the quality of the candidates they choose from. 5. Skills, Development and Support for Councillors 5.1 Skills There is no formal qualification or skill requirement to be a councillor. Councils need councillors who not only reflect and represent the communities they serve, but also have a broad range of skills and life experience. This doesn t mean councillors need to be highly educated or have a profession. Skills gained through raising a family, caring for a sick or disabled relative, volunteering or being active in faith or community groups can be equally valuable. Where councillors have specialist expertise, they will be able to utilise their skills in a way that best serves their communities. Councils require team work so that councillors can deploy their skills in the areas that need them. 5.2 Support and development 91.3% of councillors responding to the councillors census had been in receipt of one or more training and development opportunities in the last 12 months. All councils provide training for councillors. There is however a challenge for councils to ensure that their local development offer adequately supports the evolving role of councillors The LGA offer The LGA believes that: councils are responsible for their own performance; developing stronger accountability drives further improvement; and councils have a collective responsibility for performance. The LGA has a range of support for councils; the LGA Offer to councils. More details of this support can be found in appendix one Support The amount of support councillors receive will vary across councils and also depends on the councillor s roles and responsibilities. Councils are best placed to decide their local needs. There are over 20,000 councillors in England and so the desire to support them to reach the best potential for their communities must be balanced by practical and financial constraints. For example in the councillors census, from a list of eight resources or learning opportunities, councillors ranked highest IT support (21%) and administrative support (20.5%). As the councillor role becomes ever more challenging and demanding, the need for support will likely rise. If we are to see people from all walks of life becoming councillors then this support offer will need to adapt in response. Conclusion Local politicians have the potential to understand, enthuse and lead their communities. They have the potential to join together the public sector in a place and link it to those who need it most, and to have an impact on people s lives from the hyper-local to national level of delivery and policy making. The process is self-reinforcing: with greater devolution of power to councils and an understanding of the difference councillors can make using these powers, more people will want to become involved in the councillor role. 9

227 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 157 We need to improve the recruitment of councillors, use their time and skills better and to support them better these are mutually supportive elements to reinvigorating local politics. Only through this will we be able to sustain a local political system that represents the communities it serves and that can allow people to meet their aspirations for themselves and their places. APPENDIX ONE THE LGA OFFER 1. Provision of a peer challenge, free of charge, over the three year period. 2. Five days of free member peer support for all authorities undergoing a change of political control. 3. Development of the Knowledge Hub, a cross public sector resource to enable people to work together and share experiences. 4. Development of the LG Inform service to allow benchmarking and comparisons with others. 5. Provision of one subsidised place on our Leadership Academy for every council for each of the next three years and one fully funded place for district councils which have had a change of political control. 6. Work with councils to develop local accountability tools and support from Centre for Public Scrutiny. 7. Support networks for elected members and officers at national and sub-national level. 8. Encouraging the sharing of best practice through a large number of other ways, including but not limited to, regular updates, workshops, Knowledge Hub groups and relevant meetings for Leaders and Chief Executives. To promote councillor training and development, the LGA also has developed the Political Skills Framework which councils and individual councillors use to help identify their training needs. The LGA also promotes the Member Development Charter: these regionally based awards are made to councils that meet set criteria in terms of their approach to, and provision of, councillor development. Over 220 councils of all types are signed up to the Charter and 128 currently hold the Charter award. May 2012 Written evidence from Hertfordshire County Council (CC 12) Summary Hertfordshire County Council s vision of localism seeks to position councillors as an indispensable resource within active communities. Whilst central decision-making will inevitably have to persist for some issues the ambition of a localist council has to be to maximise the range of areas in which local people can have a real say in local decisions. The councillor will be critical in working with the communities to identify exactly what those needs are. This requires councillors to forego the pretension of leading their communities for a more subtle role of facilitating, mediating and advocating in communities who in turn make their own decisions and evolve their own leadership to solve problems for themselves. Such an approach presents a real challenge that applies equally to those recruiting councillors, to the way in which councillors are supported and to the councillors themselves. The Role of Councillor as Leaders of Communities and Neighbourhood Effective councillors have always played a key role in their communities, engaging with residents, and communicating their opinions to the Council. Prior to the emergence of the Big Society agenda, Hertfordshire County Council developed a commitment to giving local people more say and control over local services under the title Hertfordshire Local. The current drive towards localism has reinforced this. Our vision of localism is built on active, participative democracy with active involvement of individuals, rather than a localising of power within traditional structures of representative democracy. Although returning power to the people may seem to reduce councillors roles, the Council believes that it in fact puts them at the heart of the community. True localism therefore enhances the role of every councillor within their community. Our stated vision is to shift power from the state (in the form of the County Council and its local partners) to individuals and families, both personally and also in geographic localities in which they live. It seeks to position councillors as an indispensable resource within active communities. It aims to ensure that residents are suitably informed to allow them to influence and shape local services and take a more active part in helping them help themselves. Therefore, one of the most welcome impacts of localism is to enhance the role of every front-line councillor. For too long and too frequently most council decisions have been taken authority-wide, with little scope for local variation. Inevitably, central decision-making will have to persist for some issues, but the ambition of a localist council has to be to maximise the range and significance of decisions where local flexibility of outcome can be allowed and encouraged and to develop processes that give local people a real say in local

228 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 158 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence decisions. The councillor will be critical in working with the communities to identify exactly what those needs are. It will also mean that councillors will have to forego the pretension of leading their communities for a more subtle role of facilitating, mediating and advocating in communities who make their own decisions and evolve their own leadership. There will be a new relationship between councillors and the people they serve: Councillors will be community activists, one among equals, (perhaps, even a first among equals) but helping and encouraging respective little societies and individuals within their area. An effective councillor will not see their role as being confined to the service responsibilities of the council. Rather, they will see it as extending it to anything and everything that impacts on the wellbeing of their communities, further aided by strong knowledge of the needs of their local area and services provided there. Councillors must become an indispensable resource at the heart of active and connected communities, using collaborative and facilitative approaches to broker solutions to local issues. They will then become part of the social activism that binds local people together; their contacts, networks and access to resources enabling them to help communities secure their aspirations for their local area. Recruitment and Diversity of Councillors If front-line councillors are to be able to fulfil this wider and more demanding role, it will be of great importance that those who select candidates on behalf of political parties understand the expectations and accountabilities of those they hope to see elected. Whilst there is often a wide range of training available for councillors, time spent identifying the right candidates will pay dividends for the community (and the party). Recruiters and selectors need to be looking for people with the right mix of softer, interpersonal skills needed to be successful as social activists as well as having the drive to maintain a high profile in their communities and the strength to be held personally accountable. Skills, Training and Support for Councillors For those who are elected, the programme of member development offered by councils will have to be broadened to develop not just knowledge of the council s business and procedures, but the skills councillors will need locally. In order to make Hertfordshire County Council s vision of localism a reality, member training has been re-examined to explore this changing role. Communication and consultation skills and techniques needed to engage with their local communities are being emphasised to enable councillors to be successful as social activists. Councils will also have to change the way officers do business by assisting councillors in their localist role and allowing residents to engage effectively and influence outcomes. This will require front-line staff to recognise the legitimacy of differing local perspectives about their services; to identify which elements of service delivery can be varied locally; and to offer choices tailored to meet the needs of local communities and the views of the residents. It also leaves space to be clear that some decisions remain strategic and must remain with the council s traditional decision-making processes. Our ambition is to maximise the range and significance of decisions where local flexibility of outcome can be allowed and encouraged. So we are developing processes that give local people a real say in local decisions. Critical in this will be the sharing of information. Most councils publish a wealth of information but too often it is authority-wide, hard to access and understand. Where decisions are ripe for local variation information will have to be given which is relevant to the locality and will enable councillors, and the public, to engage with it and influence it at a meaningful level. Councillors are at the heart of these new processes. Their role is to ensure relevant information is shared with residents to help them gain a realistic understanding of the options available and help them make considered and representative choices. Wherever the legal decision is made, it must fall to the local councillor generally to advocate the community s view even if the councillor would have taken a different view. For some councils and officers, this will present a considerable challenge. But true localism will develop only if the required changes in both attitude and behaviour are understood by the whole organisation and driven from the top by both Leader and Chief Executive. With the next County Council elections taking place in 2013, Hertfordshire is already gearing up to induct a new set of councillors. Whilst it is hoped that the selection process will identify strong and motivated candidates the training and support offer will be designed to support councillors in delivering this new role. The County Council is currently testing out training supporting grass-roots community activism with an event entitled Enhancing councillors role as an Indispensable Community Activist taking place in June Furthermore, in recognition of the common expectations of councillors within all tiers of local government, this training is being offered to district councillors. The Practicalities of Being a Councillor The requirements of being a councillor will only increase with these heightened expectations. The challenge for candidate selection is however selling the role to individuals who fit the new job description. The burden of time spent on delivering the work of a front-line councillor, particularly at a top-tier authority where the

229 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 159 meetings and business are mainly conducted during the day, are significant. Anecdotal evidence suggests that councillors can easily spend 23-days per week on council business. If councils are to be able to attract a wider range of individuals then remuneration and the attitude of employers to councillor duties need to be fundamentally addressed. Localising Decision Making to Divisions, Wards and Neighbourhoods Inevitably, central decision-making will have to persist for some issues, but the ambition of a localist council has to be to maximise the range and significance of decisions where local flexibility of outcome can be allowed and encouraged and to develop processes that give local people a real say in local decisions. Many councils have already made budgets available to local councillors to spend as they see fit in their patches. In Hertfordshire, county councillors are each been allocated 100,000 a year to spend in their communities. 10,000 is given as part of the Members Locality Budget Scheme, and 90,000 is given through the Highways Locality Budget Scheme. With the Members Locality Budget Scheme, councillors are able to use the 10,000 to support local projects supporting economic, social and environmental well being. Applications are invited from community groups and local organisations, and a decision is made by the local councillor as to who the money should be given to. These decisions are shown on the councillor s web pages. The Highways Locality Budget Scheme has been extended county-wide following pilots in two districts. 90,000 of local road maintenance budgets has been devolved to individual members for local determination. Councillors are expected to consult with district, town and parish councillors as well as residents and community groups and their decisions are posted online, to ensure more direct accountability. The scheme allows local influence without compromising the county council s ability to make and support strategic road maintenance programmes. While, at law, these decision about where to spend this money remains with the council, the recommendation of the local councillor is invariably accepted. Both schemes require councillors to engage more actively with local residents, although this is without prescription, leaving the methods down to individuals to decide. Councillors have developed different solutions reflecting their local areas, for example, taking into account parished/unparished areas, or using existing community networks. In all cases the schemes provide real opportunities to begin a dialogue with the community which will form a foundation for the future. Two Tier Working The final point to be addressed relates to the nature of Hertfordshire as a two-tier area. The Council s cabinet portfolio holder for localism has set up a localism network, involving localism champions nominated from district councils across Hertfordshire. This group has been exploring the common ground that exists within the interpretation of localism that varies from authority to authority. One particular area of common ground relates to the role of councillors. Indeed the mandate of elected councillors as community advocates and activists resonates very strongly across all authorities. There is mutual interest in getting the right candidates and whilst the requirements (in terms of time) are relatively less for a district councillor the expectation about how they behave is shared. Councillors will share problems and help residents navigate the system to ensure they find solutions whether sponsored by county, district or by helping communities to help themselves. The County Council would be more than happy to take up an opportunity to present more information on any of the aspects identified in this submission should the committee consider it would be useful. May 2012 Written evidence from Liz Richardson, University of Manchester (CC 13) Executive Summary The submission is based on a range of innovative and robust pieces of research in the previous five years. For every barrier and problem identified in this submission, there are also little gems of merging good practice which are starting to tackle these issues. Many elected members find it hard to play stronger community leadership roles. Members need more help to say no and challenge the community. Members underestimate the degree of honesty and openness that the public will accept; residents appreciate honesty from councillors. Current models of community leadership also mistakenly assume that community preferences are fixed. There is potential for members to deliberate with citizens to change or adapt public opinion. Local authorities (officers) could play a bigger role in recruiting a more diverse pool of candidates through marketing and promotional work.

230 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 160 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Skills, training and support for councillors is reinforced by assessing the benefits to the community of investment in member development answering the so what? question and celebrating success. Localising decision making to divisions, wards and neighbourhoods can be managed in ways which promote inclusion. Accusation and perceptions of pork barrel politics are being addressed by agreeing resource allocation criteria jointly with communities, and making the criteria for allocation more transparent. Sharing power presents a challenge where councillors see power as a zero-sum rather than a positive-sum game. Oversight, facilitation and accountability needs better ways to manage risk, and share rewards with communities. Current ways of assessing risk levels are too often biased towards the worse-case scenario, and often do not take account in a more rounded way of the true costs, benefits and risks for neighbourhoods. Some councils are doing creative risk management. There is a major role for Scrutiny in maintaining accountability where services and responsibilities are spread to a wide range of partner and organisations. Main Messages These arguments are based on a range of innovative and robust pieces of research in the previous five years This submission is based on six pieces of research conducted between 2007 and This ranges from a highly innovative self-evaluation project where local councillors from over 30 local government organisations conducted their own research with support from the author, to gold standard evaluation using Randomized Controlled Trials with community groups, and local elected members. Details of publications for the research are given at the end of this submission. The main messages and policy implications are synthesised and summarised into plain English, under the relevant topics given for the Inquiry. The role of councillors as leaders of communities and neighbourhoods could be made much stronger There are good examples of where councillors have successfully played stronger community leadership roles, particularly in brokering difficult resource decisions and tensions between sections of communities. Lessons from where this has happened are: Difficult or controversial issues need to be challenged head-on, using tried and tested techniques, eg mediation; Residents appreciate local councillors being honest about what is possible, or acceptable; Councillors sometimes need to resist demands from minority interest groups for special treatment, regardless of the electoral consequences; Councillors can help to mobilise the community to respond to critical situations, with support from community networks such as faith organisations, voluntary groups, women s groups, and community elders; and Member learning & development helps elected members play a vital and strong community leadership role. However, many elected members find it hard to play these roles. Often, they are unwilling because they see these as vote losing activities. This is a challenge that goes beyond simply developing members skills in community engagement. Members underestimate the degree of honesty and openness that the public will accept. Current models of community leadership also mistakenly assume that community preferences are fixed, and the role of members is to either accommodate to opinion or go against it. It is partly true that members are more likely to feel their role is to make the ultimate decision and communicate this to citizens; whereas citizens are more likely to feel councillors should agree with their views. One result of this difference in views is low levels of responsiveness to organised interest groups in the community, which means the potential for positive collaborative working between councillors and the community is not maximised. There are limited understandings of members potential roles in deliberating with citizens to change or adapt public opinion, although there are isolated examples of where deliberative-style approaches have been used, and worked (including South Lakeland DC and Rossendale BC). One practical issue is the need for more effective back-up systems and information flows from officers to elected members. In some councils like Bradford MDC, neighbourhood workers provide a conduit for getting information to members. Some councils such as Newcastle CC have also given councillors access to real-time electronic systems that track the progress of queries or jobs through the council system. This means councillors can be more effective at getting things done, chasing outstanding issues, and updating residents about progress. But at the other end of the extreme, members ability to prioritise responding to communities is undermined by a high volume of irrelevant correspondence from officers. Some members feel this is driven by officers back covering.

231 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 161 Recruitment and diversity of councillors and the implications for representation and local democracy There is already a body of work which makes recommendations for increasing the diversity of representation eg positive discrimination; active recruitment by parties, changes to allowances and childcare, times of meetings, time off from employers etc. Alongside this, one area for development is the role of local authorities in recruiting potential candidates. There is already a high level of activity by councils to support local democracy eg Democracy Weeks etc. In recent years, there have also been tentative moves towards active marketing of becoming a councillor by councils, although these have suffered from a reluctance to talk about the roles for political parties. Despite all of this, there are still strong underlying objections by officers in authorities to intervening in recruitment which hinder more extensive promotional work. The Duty to Promote Democracy made strides in this direction before it was repealed. Skills, training and support for councillors is reinforced by assessing its community impacts and celebrating success There has been significant progress on member learning and development in the last decade. Indications are that authorities are trying to protect investment in member development in the current financial settlement. However, investment in member learning and development is vulnerable to being seen as a luxury extra in hard times. There needs to be demonstrable outcomes for communities from member development for it to be valued and sustained. Elected members must also be directly involved in assessing community benefit of learning and training for them to find any evidence credible. The North West Member Development Charter (and variations such as Charter Plus in other regions) offers a self-evaluation framework which accredits local government organisations for their learning and development. Accreditation is based on proof of the community impact of investment in skills development and learning. It answers the so what question. The standards for proof are at academic levels, and the evidence collection is overseen and delivered by councillors. An annual North West Celebration Event, organised by the Regional employers Organisation, rewards those authorities which have been awarded the Charter. Examples include cost savings made by Scrutiny in Wyre BC as the result of an intensive member development process. Another example was improved relationships and renewed faith in local members from a previously hostile and angry community in a housing market renewal area in Hyndburn BC. Localising decision making to divisions, wards and neighbourhoods can be managed in ways which promote inclusion There are polarised views on localising decision-making. The worst case scenario is that decentralisation or devolution runs the risks that: neighbourhood interests are prioritised at the expense of wider area needs; unhealthy competition between places and groups is exacerbated; community tensions worsen; and strategic interests are undermined. However, the research used in this submission suggests that how far devolution leads to greater inclusion within and between neighbourhoods depends on facilitation, deliberation, brokering, and greater transparency. There are examples of positive outcomes from greater transparency, eg participatory budgeting and Neighbourhood Agreements across the country, work in Chorley, and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation Working in Neighbourhoods Network in Bradford. There is one key issue that is currently being avoided by many elected members and local authorities. When localised decisions are made by politically-controlled structures, they have been perceived by communities as politically biased and unfair. Perceptions of fairness (however this is defined) has been shown to affect other citizen attitudes including satisfaction with councils. Accusations of what the Americans call pork barrel politics (where politicians use their control over the allocation of resources to favour their own interests) are made by citizens more frequently than is commonly admitted or addressed by councillors. Some councils are starting to address this by agreeing resource allocation criteria jointly with communities, and making the criteria for allocation more transparent. There are emerging examples such as in Tameside MBC, where there was a significant shift in how members saw their role, resulting in sharing power with communities. But sharing power presents a challenge where councillors see power as a zero-sum rather than a positive-sum game. Oversight, facilitation and accountability needs better ways to manage risk, and share rewards with communities Localising decisions and encouraging more community contributions can mean transferring more control to communities. This spreads accountability in new ways, and demands different methods of oversight and facilitation than can be used when activities are in authorities direct control. It is understandable that local councils and their elected members are cautious about transferring power to communities and neighbourhoods where they feel this would present a high level of risk. The local authority and its members have overall responsibility, and are answerable to citizens. Responses to this are too often to avoid risk, or even more narrowly to avoid legal liabilities. Across local councils, current ways of assessing risk levels are too often biased towards the worse-case scenario, and often do not take account in a more rounded way of the true costs, benefits and risks for neighbourhoods. However, some councils are also starting to create scope for more community action by creatively managing risk, for example through Community PQQs, and other approaches which could be spread further. Where accountability for services and community outcomes is shared with other partners, such as commissioned third sector organisations, or other public sector bodies, there are also some

232 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 162 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence innovations taking place where members are getting more effective at being in charge when you re not in charge. There is a major role here for Scrutiny. May 2012 Publications Referred to in this Submission Cotterill, S and Richardson, L (2011). Inspiring Democracy: community anchors and councillors, University of Manchester: Manchester Evans, E, Gains, F, Goodwin M, John, J, Rao, N and Richardson, L (2007). Improving The Representativeness Of Councillors: learning from five high performing local authorities in England, CLG: London John, P, Cotterill, S, Moseley, A, Richardson, L, Smith, G, Stoker, G, and Wales, C (2011). Nudge, nudge, think, think: experimenting with ways to change civic behaviour, Bloomsbury Academic: London North West Employers Organisation (NWEO) (2008). North West Charter Level Two on Elected Member Development: A toolkit about demonstrating community impact, NWEO: Manchester Richardson, L (2012). Working in neighbourhoods, active citizenship and localism: lesson for policy makers and practitioners, JRF: York Richardson, L and John, P (2012). Who listens to the grassroots? A field experiment on informational lobbying in the UK, British Journal of Politics and International Relations Written evidence from the Centre for Public Scrutiny (CfPS) (CC 14) Introduction The Centre for Public Scrutiny (CfPS), an independent charity, is the leading national organisation for ideas, thinking and the application and development of policy and practice to promote transparent, inclusive and accountable public services. We support individuals, organisations and communities to put our principles into practice in the design, delivery and monitoring of public services in ways that build knowledge, skills and trust so that effective solutions are identified together by decision-makers, practitioners and service users. The Centre for Public Scrutiny is part-funded through a grant from the LGA to support and develop the overview and scrutiny functions of local authorities in England; we also work with local authorities in Wales in partnership with the Welsh Local Government Association. We are submitting evidence to the Committee on the following points: Oversight, facilitation and accountability: Councillors general scrutiny role; The role of politics; The developing role of scrutiny relating to partnerships; The developing role of scrutiny relating to sector self-regulation; and Links with councillors wider community leadership role. Strategic governance, leadership and responsibilities: The role of the backbench councillor in strategic governance and leadership; and Relationships between scrutiny and the executive. Oversight, Facilitation and Accountability Councillors general scrutiny role Councillors role in oversight and accountability has developed strongly since the introduction of the executive/scrutiny split through the Local Government Act Prior to this time, debate and dialogue on council policies was carried out in service committees, where decision was generally reached, following debate and discussion, through public votes. Decisions are now made by Cabinet (collectively) and by individual cabinet members. Scrutiny s role traditionally focuses backbench councillors on holding those cabinet members to account, although a substantial number of local authorities, and local councillors, view their scrutiny role as playing a part in policy development. In this role, the responsibilities of scrutiny functions in local authorities broadly reflect the core tasks agreed for Parliamentary Select Committees in Most councillors in county, unitary and district councils are scrutiny councillors, but their scrutiny role is often neglected or forgotten. One of a regular series of surveys that we have carried out 10 demonstrates that while 63% of councillors felt that scrutiny adds a lot or a great deal to the work of the authority, 45% of councillors still felt that their authority gave a little or very little value to the role that scrutiny carries out. This is reflected in anecdotal evidence that we have gathered through conversations with senior officers and Annual Survey of Overview and Scrutiny in Local Government (CfPS, 2011)

233 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 163 cabinet members, who while often keen to talk in general terms about the value and benefits of scrutiny, are unwilling to act in a way that supports those views. This is worrying, because it suggests in some authorities a culture of governance that does not recognise the vital role that scrutiny can play in two key areas engaging with partners, and involvement with sector self regulation, both of which we discuss in the sections below. Both of these are areas where scrutiny s powers and opportunities derive directly from the fact that the function is member led, relying on the unique perspective and independent-minded nature of backbench councillors: Scrutiny councillors can carry out these roles in a variety of ways by sitting in committee, or by carrying out work in task and finish groups. The inherent flexibility of scrutiny allows a huge amount of leeway to members to carry out work in the manner that they see fit. Again, however, we are concerned that in some councils, attempts have been made to compartmentalise scrutiny, and to treat it as a function of limited nature and value, with a role only (for example) in reviewing forthcoming cabinet-level decisions, or in reviewing the implementation of recent cabinet decisions. Independent scrutiny investigation of wide-ranging issues is seen by some as pointless work that will never lead anywhere or accomplish anything of value. In some instances this is true, but the blame for such failure rests equally with those on the executive whose closed attitude to scrutiny is such that its recommendations, however forcefully expressed, could never result in real change. This is a wider corporate governance issue, not necessarily a failing of the scrutiny function itself. The role of politics Scrutiny is often said to be an apolitical function. There has been detailed research carried out on the role of politics in the scrutiny process. 11 There is, we feel, a distinction between the use of scrutiny as a forum for party political discussions which we, along with other commentators, believe is inappropriate and the use by scrutiny councillors of their political skills in scrutiny, recognising that those skills give them a unique perspective that enhances their role. Empowering members to work effectively on scrutiny should be about recognising and building on their existing skills and experience, rather than making the assumption that apolitical behaviour means the same as behaving like an officer. Scrutiny is, and should be, member-led. In being member-led, it brings something different and unique to the improvement process within the authority, and the area at large. The developing role of scrutiny relating to partnerships It is important to recognise the distinction between the scrutiny of partners or the scrutiny of partnerships, and the involvement of partners in the scrutiny of issues affecting local people. The latter presents the most effective way to carry out scrutiny, and provides the most significant opportunity for backbench councillors to engage productively in this work. Decision-making in local government is becoming increasingly fragmented and diffuse. A range of different groups and organisations are responsible for delivering public services in local areas. Councils are only one of these. Increasingly, decisions are made at partnership level with little oversight, or transparency. 12 Scrutiny has a role in recognising cross-cutting issues, delivered by a range of partners, to which it can add value by shedding light on decisions and the policy development process, and making recommendations accordingly. In doing this, councillors may want to work together with others involved in local accountability. This reflects the existence of what we have termed a web of accountability at local level, a concept that we consider will be increasingly important as decision-making becomes more partnership-based, moves which will need to be reflected in local accountability. 13 It presents a significant challenge, but a substantial opportunity, to local councillors, who could see their reach and influence increase as a result. The developing role of scrutiny relating to sector self-regulation The Audit Commission is being abolished, and central inspection systems such as the Comprehensive Area Assessment have been dismantled. Central Government has made it clear that managing performance, and bringing about improvement, will be a matter for individual councils, and for the sector at large. The LGA s Taking the Lead policy recognises the role that scrutiny can play in this picture of sector self-regulation. In many councils, scrutiny has taken an active role in oversight of performance issues, challenging the implementation of policy and seeking to develop a culture of continuous improvement. We discussed the role of scrutiny in driving improvement in a publication produced in This, and other research, 15 has suggested that through scrutiny, backbench members can have a significant impact by identifying potential causes for concern in the local area which relate to poor performance, and suggesting means of tackling them. This puts members at the centre of an improvement process which some perceive as 11 Ewbank M, The operation of political parties since the separation of power in English local government (Doctoral thesis, University of Birmingham, 2010); see also Leach S, Party politics and scrutiny in local government: clearing the hurdles (CfPS, 2009) 12 Between a rock and a hard place (CfPS, 2010), Policy Briefing 9: The Big Society, Policy Briefing 10: shared services and commissioning (both CfPS, 2012) 13 Accountability Works (CfPS, 2010) 14 Green Light (CfPS, 2010) 15 A cunning plan (CfPS, 2011), On the money (CfPS, 2nd edition 2011)

234 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 164 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence being an officer issue, or something that it technocratic where non-cabinet members cannot feasibly have much of an impact. Links with councillors wider community leadership role As a variety of powers (such as the community right to bid, the community right to challenge, and powers on neighbourhood planning) are devolved to local level, there are opportunities for councillors scrutiny role to be more closely linked with their community leadership role, 16 to ensure that the council and its partners are fully attuned to the needs and aspirations of local people. Issues causing particular concern to certain areas can already be raised at overview and scrutiny committee using the (admittedly little-used) Councillor Call for Action procedures. 17 We believe that councillors can have a role in mediating, as democratic representatives, the interests and aspirations of local people, acting as advocates for their communities within the council. 18 This has always been a role for councillors but in many councils, the systems do not necessarily exist to translate opinions expressed in local areas into concerted action at authority level. This relates directly to the increased trend for councils to think more seriously about the community intelligence that they have at their disposal, with the aim of developing greater customer insight 19 and, by so doing, deliver services more efficiently, economically and effectively. Equally, councillors themselves can capitalise on their unique community knowledge by bringing it to bear in the scrutiny work they carry out. This has the potential to provide a unique perspective to their investigations, making it more likely that they will be able to develop novel solutions that might not have been apparent to others (particularly officers). Strategic Governance, Leadership and Responsibilities The role of the backbench councillor in strategic governance and leadership We have touched above on the input that backbench councillors can make on strategic governance and leadership. Often the leadership role is considered to be limited to Cabinet members, but backbench members, through carrying out high quality scrutiny work that makes an impact on council and partner policies, can succeed in influencing that strategic direction. In terms of strategic governance, scrutiny s role is less apparent. Councils have tended in the past to look to audit, governance through management processes and central inspection as the key drivers in strategic governance. 20 While scrutiny has not necessarily been a bolt-on afterthought, it is often not treated as an integral element in governance as opposed to (for example) audit. For this reason, scrutiny can often find itself duplicating work being carried out elsewhere, or finding it difficult to engage with corporate processes whose timescales might be unreasonable or opaque. 21 This can make it difficult for scrutiny councillors to feel that they have a stake in strategic governance, particular when their involvement through other means are often limited to debates at Full Council. We consider that embedding scrutiny more meaningfully in strategic governance and improvement arrangements would enhance the role that scrutiny councillors play in this area. What this means in practice is likely to vary from authority to authority. Relationships between scrutiny and the executive Some authorities benefit from a positive working relationship between scrutiny and the executive. This does not always relate to political control and the size of majorities. 22 More often it reflects positive attitudes derived from good work. When scrutiny is able to demonstrate its value by carrying out proportionate, timely and relevant work, which is useful in improving services, executives will be more inclined to develop a positive approach to working with it. Conversely, in authorities where such relationships do not exist, it can be difficult to improve things. An approach of evolution carrying out small pieces of work to build goodwill and change attitudes rather than revolution can be better in persuading the executive and partners that scrutiny has a role to play. This is necessary because scrutiny s powers are, in fact, quite limited in scope while executive members and officers can be compelled to attend committee meetings, there is no compulsion on the executive to implement scrutiny recommendations, which means that scrutiny s success is bound up with the respect in which it is held in the area at large. In the same way as commentators talk about parity of esteem between select committees and Government at Westminster, we consider that similar principles should apply in local government. 16 Policy Briefing 14: update on new legislation (CfPS, 2011) 17 Action stations: the first six months of CCfA (CfPS, 2009) 18 Cabinet member for your ward (Leadership Centre for Local Government, 2009) 19 Between a rock and a hard place (CfPS, 2010) 20 Accountability Works (CfPS, 2010) 21 A cunning plan (CfPS, 2011) Annual Survey of Overview and Scrutiny in Local Government (CfPS, 2011)

235 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 165 Conclusion The ability for councillors to use scrutiny as a means to influence the authority s strategic direction is as much down to organisational and political culture as it is an issue relating to the structures and processes supporting the scrutiny function itself. While we have repeatedly said that more legislative powers for scrutiny would be valuable, these can only ever offer a foundation for local areas to build on as witnessed by the very different way that backbench councillors choose to work on scrutiny. May 2012 Written evidence from the Centre for Women & Democracy (CC 24) Executive Summary ES1. The level of women councillors currently stands at 31%, and has been more or less static for the last 10 years. ES2. Women face a series of barriers to their entering public life; these include economic, social and political factors, many of which were outlined in the Councillors Commission Report published in The Centre for Women & Democracy (CFWD) contributed evidence to this, and whilst we do not agree with all its findings, we believe that they very comprehensively covered most of the issues. ES3. The political parties are the gatekeepers to public office, and the electorate still overwhelmingly votes for candidates from one of the main three parties (94% of councillors elected in 2012 were either Conservative, Labour or Liberal Democrat). The actions of the parties in recruiting and retaining a diverse range of candidates and councillors are therefore of considerable importance. ES4. Women are often interested in local public office, but feel under-qualified for it. Better training and support for both men and women would therefore be an advantage. ES5. Political parties need to examine their selection procedures to ensure that they are fair, open, transparent and effective. They should also take steps to make sure that information on how to become a candidate is freely and easily available. ES6. Women are significantly less likely than men to lead local authorities, or to work on strategic portfolios. As a result women lack role models and do not view local government as an activity which has much relevance to them as determiners, rather than consumers of services (or as payers of taxes). Political parties should therefore take steps to ensure that this is rectified. ES7. The Labour Party has had some success in increasing the numbers of both candidates and councillors by using positive action measures. Similar schemes should be considered by other parties. ES8. Political parties exist to win elections, and whilst all are committed to increasing diversity, none have it as their primary objective. Consideration should be given to the establishment of an independently administered fund to assist parties with their responsibilities in candidate development, and could be lined to diversity requirements. ES9. Currently, the average age of councillors is 60 and rising. As a result it is unattractive to younger people, and it is also harder for new candidates to find seats. Consideration should be given to the introduction of an upper age limit for councillors as there is for magistrates. ES10. The hours and commitments expected of councillors are very high, and not always geared to the needs of people who work or who have caring responsibilities. Councils should give active consideration to their working practices, and, in particular, to the level of professionalisation that they are introducing. ES11. Women are often particularly concerned about physical security, especially where they are working alone. Councils should make sure that proper arrangements are in place, and that women are reassured that they will not be put at risk. Submission 1. The Centre for Women & Democracy 1.1 The Centre for Women & Democracy (CFWD) was established in 2007 to work on and campaign for women s representation, presence and voice in public decision-making roles, as well as on aspects of democratic practice. We are a non-profit organisation based in Leeds. We have researched and published annual reports on elections and women in leadership roles, as well as studies of issues such as the impact of government legislation and the history of women in politics. We also provide training for women as well as advice to organisations. 1.2 Together with the Electoral Reform Society, the Fawcett Society, Unlock Democracy and the Hansard Society, CFWD is a founder member of the Counting Women In Campaign. 1.3 Our website can be found at

236 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 166 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 2. Introduction and Background 2.1 Women s involvement in local government at various levels pre-dates their access to Parliament by some decades; they were present as Poor Law Guardians from 1869, on School Boards from 1890, on Parish and District Councils from 1894 and on County and County Borough Councils from Traditionally, local government was seen very much as the province of middle and upper class women, with working class women more likely to be active through trade unions or in community-based campaigns. As a result the representation of women on local councils was very variable, with the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats generally more successful than Labour in recruiting and securing the election of women. 2.3 In 2004, Labour introduced positive action measures for the selection of local government candidates, and since then that Party s ability to secure the election of women has significantly improved. In 2012, 40% of Labour candidates were women, and 40% of Labour councillors elected. 2.4 CFWD s interim report on the 2012 Local Elections is attached as Appendix A Despite this, however, the level of women councillors has remained more or less static and currently stands at 31%. The good performance of women candidates in the 2012 local elections does not necessarily feed through into increased numbers of women councillors since in many cases women elected were not additional (eg, where women candidates of one party defeated women candidates of another). 2.6 CFWD s work on the 2012 elections is ongoing, and, in particular, we are about to start work on retention rates for both men and women councillors, and the reasons for any disparity that there may be. 2.7 The Committee will doubtless be aware of the 2007 Councillors Commission Report, which investigated many of the relevant issues and made recommendations for change and improvement. CFWD agreed with many, though not all, of these. 3. Issues and Proposals 3.1 The barriers to women s participation have been rehearsed many times, and it is not there for proposed to dwell on them at any length here. However, there are some broad areas which bear restating. 3.2 For many women, the need to manage both family commitments and a job is already demanding, and the addition of public life simply makes it impossible. 40% of women and 47% of men councillors are also in employment of one kind or another, whilst 30% of women and 22% of men have caring responsibilities for children or adult relatives. 24 The hours that councillors are expected to work, combined with the intrusion into family and personal life that this inevitably produces, are not very attractive for women who already struggle to balance all the various areas of their lives. Many women also find the idea of being on call 24 hours a day, combined with personal details such as their homes addresses being public, rather worrying. This is particularly true for women who are living alone, or living alone with children. 3.3 There is a general perception that support for political parties is declining; however, in % of councillors elected represented one of the main three political parties, and this is a marginal increase on the outcomes in recent years. The political parties are the gatekeepers to public office at all levels, and they are all are predominantly male in character, particularly at local level. There is ample evidence to demonstrate that women are less likely than men to join political parties, less likely to be active in them, and less likely to stand for public office on their behalf. In addition, whilst local and community-based work is generally seen as appropriate for women, this is less the case for political activity. For instance, only 37% of women identify themselves as being interested in politics (as opposed to 49% of men) It has also often been noted that members of political parties tend to be more socially conservative in their views than the wider electorate in some areas, and that they may have less confidence in the electability of women candidates. There is no evidence at all that the electorate does not wish to vote for women or in any way discriminates against them; sadly, some members of all political parties mistakenly believe that women are an electoral liability, and select candidates accordingly. 3.5 It is repeatedly asserted that there are insufficient women wishing to stand as councillors, and that as a result parties are compelled to stand men. This may be true in so far as the supply of candidates generally is concerned all parties report problems with finding enough candidates, particularly in some types of seat but it is not as true in relation to women as is sometimes suggested. The experience of both the Labour Party, the Green Party and the Liberal Democrats, (who this year fielded 41%, 36% and 34% women candidates respectively) suggest that where there is an awareness of the issues women candidates can be found, and, in the case of the Labour Party, that where there is an element of compulsion that task becomes cumulatively less problematic. This issue will be expanded upon further below. 3.6 It should be noted that, although women are, as we have seen, less likely to be involved in politics generally, the numbers of both candidates and councillors that are being sought, fielded or elected at any one time are minute compared to the general population. 23 Page 12 onwards of this document. 24 LGA Census of Local Councillors Hansard Audit of Political Engagement 2012

237 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev From time to time various solutions to the problem of the lack of women councillors have been proposed. Many of these were included in the Councillors Commission Report, and although some are more practicable (in political as well as other terms) than others, they are all worthy of consideration. 3.8 CFWD made an extensive submission to that inquiry, and our views have not changed in any substantive way since. The paragraphs below therefore reflect the views included in our remarks to the Commission five years ago. 3.9 Although all three parties are keen at national level to see the number of women representing them increase, they have failed to convince members at a local level that women candidates are as likely to be successful as men, and, given the resistance and resentment that attempts to influence or control local selections can provoke, parties nationally are reluctant to force the issue beyond a certain point. This is despite the fact that most grassroots members of all parties would consider themselves to be fair-minded and often are and relatively few would say that they are actively against diversity. However, there is an incontrovertible gap between theory and practice, and even for the Labour Party, which has been most successful in getting women selected and elected through their positive action process, far too many wards exists for which all the councillors are male It is also the case that some people who agree with the wider case for diversity will nevertheless still cite local or other factors as reasons it not being possible for their local party in particular to select a female candidate a sort of political nimbyism which is difficult to overcome. This makes it even more important that political parties as well as campaigners should be able to marshal, make and win arguments in favour of enabling a diverse range of candidates to stand in seats in which they have a reasonable chance of succeeding All political parties have internal procedures for identifying, screening and selecting candidates, and it is recognised that this is both reasonable and necessary. Every party is entitled to take steps to ensure that candidates standing under its banner represent its core beliefs, achieve certain core competencies and can be trusted to act collectively and with a degree of loyalty. Indeed, given the electorate s clear preference for candidates from one or other of the main parties this is essential apart from anything else people think that they know what they are getting with each party s candidate, and for the parties to blur that by accepting as candidates people with little or no connection with them or loyalty to them would not be helpful in the wider context However, parties could do a great deal more to recruit suitable persons as members, to identify suitable members to bring forwards, to provide them with training, support, and mentoring schemes, and to ensure that candidate selection procedures are open and transparent Women are particularly likely to take the view that, before taking on the commitments of public office, they should get some training. This is sometimes viewed as a weakness or a sign of lack of confidence; in fact, given the complexities of modern local government and the enormous sums of public money involved, it is more of a strength, and political parties should all be doing more to try to meet this need (for men as well as for women; women are simply more likely to articulate it) Whatever their good intentions, however, the parties nationally can have little effect on the recruitment process other than to encourage and support it. By far the best people to do this work are local members themselves, who understand their communities, know individuals in it, and have a direct and personal interest in electoral success. Any strategy for developing better recruitment and support systems, therefore, will need to ensure that local party organisations which are all entirely made up of voluntary members, workers and activists are better resourced and incentivised to spend time on it. They will need to be convinced of the value of doing it, and they will need to be supported in terms of training and materials. This has a cost implication for parties nationally and some proposals for how this might be dealt with further on in this submission There is then the issue of succession planning. Local councillors and their parties often wish to do more of this, but find that the procedures or cultures within their parties as a whole are inimical to it. Of course, this varies from party to party, with the Liberal Democrats having much looser structures and more scope for local action than either the Conservative or Labour parties, but in all three cases more could be done to encourage and incentivise long-term planning which could (and should) include provision for the bringing forward of potential women candidates from all communities Parties are understandably keen to make sure that their procedures ensure the selection of the best possible candidate for the seat, and that they are seen to be fair and above board. They also wish every aspirant candidate to have a fair chance, and in some quarters may argue that succession planning could militate against this. However, it needs to be recognised that many women (and other people from under-represented groups) regard the current procedures as anything but open and fair, and an increasing tendency to assume that there are wards which belong to given groups (one of the commonest of which is that wards with significant South Asian populations can only be represented by South Asian men) means that in fact selections across the board have become subject to a variety of opaque practices which go directly against what any of the parties wishes to achieve.

238 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 168 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 3.17 Local members of all parties making selections should be given much more support to ensure both that the process is fair, and that sensible and open succession planning takes place. It will be argued that political parties are not currently resourced to do this, and proposals to rectify this are outlined further on Political parties should make it as easy as possible for members to find out about what being a councillor would involve, and how they could go about becoming one all three of the main parties need to make this information much more accessible on their websites. This includes details of mentoring and shadowing schemes, training and other candidate support and succession planning measures One of the reasons that women choose not to stand is that they do not regard being a councillor as something relevant to them. Women tend to respond well to role models, and local government does not provide many. CFWD publishes regular analyses of the diversity of local government leadership; at present only 14% of council leaders are women, 2 (out of 13) elected mayors, and 27% of portfolio-holders. Having women in leadership roles seems in itself to produce more women in senior jobs; 36% of women leaders have cabinets at least half of whose members are women, but only 19% of male leaders. 55% of cabinets led by women are 30% or above female, and 37% of cabinets led by men There are also differences in the types of portfolios men and women are likely to hold; 73% of leaders, for instance, held the economic regeneration portfolio prior to becoming leader, but only 13% of councillors holding this portfolio are women. on the other hand, 25% of education and children s services portfolios are held by women, but just 13% of leaders have held it during their careers As a result of this, women rarely see other women in strategic or corporate leadership positions in local government, and when they do it is likely to be with responsibility for traditional women s areas. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with women leading on children s services or the environment merely that the concentration of women in certain types of portfolio results in a lack of balance. The lack of diversity across the board of service provision is therefore likely to be discouraging to women whose fields of expertise are finance, the economy or housing Political parties could help to improve the overall position by establishing requirements for numbers of women in cabinets, and by ensuring that they are enforced. They could also ensure that women councillors are encouraged to go on leadership courses, and that they are visible in senior roles across the board of service delivery Whilst it is accepted that persuasion would be by far the best method of achieving gender parity in local government, it is also the case that at the present rate of progress it will be 2035 at the earliest before it is achieved. As has been demonstrated above, the problem does not lie with the electorate, but with the supply and selection of women candidates by the parties. The Labour Party already has a positive action policy, which has clearly delivered results in 2003 only 23% of Labour s candidates were women, whereas in 2012 this figure had risen to 41%. This has been achieved very largely by the cumulative effect of positive action measures introduced in The Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties have both rejected positive action for the time being at least, and their proportion of women candidates has remained more or less unchanged over the same period It is not suggested that the Labour Party s model is the only one available indeed, it should be reviewed and adjusted at regular intervals but all three of the parties should consider the introduction of a scheme appropriate to them, supported by measures to identify and train women aspirants, even if only as a last resort if other methods of securing improvements fail If we are serious about improving the diversity of public representatives, and if as a society we choose (as we do) to continue to elect candidates from the main parties, then it follows that what the parties do or do not do in order to achieve diversity is a matter of public interest Political parties are funded very differently, and at different levels at different times, and must in any case regard elections themselves as the priority for their expenditure. This means that, as things stand at present, they are very unlikely to divert major funding into diversity work, and neither would it really be reasonable to expect them to do so. They are not charged by government or anyone else with the delivery of a diversity programme, nor were they set up for that purpose. They have an in-principle commitment to it, and have all made efforts to achieve it, but it is not now, nor will it be in the foreseeable future, at the top of their list of priorities for scarce resources However, if a fund were to be set up to which parties reaching a certain level of representation or vote could apply, there would be the incentive for them to be much more proactive. The fund could be held and administered independently and parties would need to be able to ring-fence and to demonstrate that they had ring-fenced the expenditure. They would also need to provide evidence of how it had been spent. Amongst the things which could be funded through this mechanism are: diversity officers to work with local parties; the development and implementation of mentoring and shadowing schemes; training for prospective local government candidates; 26 These figures and those in 2.20 below are taken from CFWD research on leadership undertaken in

239 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 169 information and training for local members (especially on recruitment and selection issues); active succession planning; childcare for prospective candidates; the development and production of good advice and training materials; and effective monitoring Clearly, the fund would not be large, and parties would need to be innovative about the schemes they developed, but they would also then be in a position in which they were not effectively being expected to carry the whole burden of increasing diversity without any real support to do so, and would also have fewer excuses for not being proactive The current legislative framework permits parties to take positive action, but does not compel them to. There are no national targets or quotas for the representation of women, and the political parties all have different processes for achieving greater diversity. As demonstrated above, these have varying levels of success It is our view that diversity in public life will not be achieved without an element of compulsion to back up persuasion. As outlined above, it would be greatly preferable to persuade party activists and selectorates of both the justice of the case for parity and the electoral advantages of it, but experience suggests that this needs to be backed up by an enforceable requirement at some stage Amongst the options to consider for how this might be achieved are: make continuation of any grants referred to above dependent on a demonstrable increase in the number of women councillors; set a clear national target for the achievement of gender parity in local government elected members; require parties to stand quotas of women in local government elections. This is easier where there are list systems, but still possible in all-out first-past-the-post elections since each party effectively has a list of candidates across the authority. The quota would need to take into account the relative winnability of seats and the gender break-down of incumbent councillors standing again. It is also accepted that this would be more difficult to implement effectively where councils come up for election by thirds; ensure that elections for any new bodies or authorities which come into being have provision for positive action; and ensure that provisions for elections following boundary reviews include positive action requirements There are some issues which may appear social, but which can also be regarded as political; for instance, the average age of councillors is now 60 and rising, and whilst 19% of all councillors are over the age of 70, only 7.5% are under This imbalance creates the impression that local government is unrepresentative of the population at large and is not relevant either to younger people or to a more diverse range of people There is at present no retirement age for local councillors. On one level, there is some logic to this, since it is appropriate that the whole of the population should be represented in public bodies, but on another it causes a number of problems, particularly in relation to diversity There is currently a mandatory retirement age for magistrates of 70. The concept of a retirement age is therefore not in itself a novel one for public life. Obviously, the introduction of any retirement age for councillors would need to be consulted upon and legislated for, but should not be discounted as a valid possibility Another possibility which might be looked at is that councillors should retire at the end of the term of office in which they reach 75 this would enable there to be some flexibility of retirement age but would also enable some movement to be created In addition, it might be worth investigating a scheme introduced some years ago in Scotland in which councillors were recompensed for standing down in order to create new opportunities. We have not looked in detail at the outcomes of this scheme, but believe that it would bear further investigation On the other hand, the skills and experiences of long-serving councillors who still have much to contribute should not be lost if at all possible. There is currently a (mainly) ceremonial position of Alderman this could be expanded and given the function of mentoring new and aspirant councillors. Unlike serving councillors, aldermen would have the time to give to this, and would also have an interest and investment in the future of local government as well as the past. Training and support could be provided, and it could be developed into a senior role of value rather than a full stop to activity There are some issues which councils themselves need to examine, and about which there needs to be some public discussion. The role of a local councillor is extremely demanding; the average councillor spends 27 LGA Census of Local Councillor 2010

240 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 170 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence 23 hours a week on council and those in senior roles spend much more. Members have to balance ward work with constituents and communities with meetings in the town hall, and many have to juggle jobs and family responsibilities as well Councils across the board need to think about changing the way in which they work in order to accommodate the challenges and pace of modern life, but communities also need to be much clearer about what it is that they want their councillor to do. There are some good arguments to be made in favour of a professionalised elected tier in local government, but there is also a great deal to be said for maintaining the part-time, community-based aspect of the job One issue which particularly concerns women is that of security, particularly for women who are on their own. The expectation that councillors will always be available to talk to constituents means that there are risks, particularly for women whose home addresses and phone numbers are published, or who find themselves doing casework surgeries on their own. Councils should ensure that there are proper arrangements in place to take account of these risks, and that women should be reassured that they will not find themselves in dangerous situations. 4. Conclusion 4.1 This submission looks at a relatively small number of key areas, and certainly does not contain the complete answer to the problem. However, it is our view that, whilst there are some relatively small things which can be done to increase diversity, we also need to take some adventurous and innovative steps if we are to develop a truly inclusive democracy. June Overview Written evidence from Paul Wheeler, Director of Political Skills Forum (CC 25) I welcome the opportunity to give evidence and assist the work of the Select Committee. I have been involved with the development and support of local councillors for over 20 years. I established the Member Development service at the Improvement and Development Agency in 1999 which was responsible for a number of well regarded initiative including the Leadership Academy and the Charter for Member Development endorsed by all political parties. I am currently the Director of the Political Skills Forum which exist to promote the importance of local democracy. It probably is worth noting at the beginning that many of the issues that prevent a greater range of people to consider standing as local councillors relate to wider issues about how, we as a society, value local democracy and the ability of local communities to actively influence their own futures. These concerns are being discussed by a number of agencies and I think that the Select Committee is very timely in being able to take a wider perspective on both the barriers and incentives to undertake the elected role at a local level. I would like to focus my evidence on how we can persuade those in the age range of to consider taking up the role of local councillor. It is this group who are often the community builders in many localities who are the missing generation from many council chambers. As I have indicated that there some deep seated issues as to how we have arrived at the current composition of the councillor population I wanted to deal with some basic principles; 2. Principle One It s Good to be Elected There are two related issues. Firstly a large and increasing number of people do not understand the role of local councillors. Secondly we have created a whole range of organizations where it seems more can be achieved by being nominated rather than by being elected. I think we need to be much clearer that elections at a local level confer status and responsibility. Anyone who has visited European cities such as Barcelona and Milan will be aware of the respect accorded to the local Town Hall and its representatives. Apart from the Corporation of London we seem to have largely forgotten that tradition. If we are to reverse this trend I think we need to have a mission to inform the wider population of the roles and responsibilities of elected office. I have outlined a number of these in my open letter to your Chair (see attached). I also think we need to create more pathways to stand for elected office. It is often said we have fewer elected councillors per capita than any other Western Democracy. We also tend to have more councillors on fewer institutions a pattern accentuated by the move to larger unitary councils.

241 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 171 We should regard a new range of neighbourhood councils (incorporating existing town and parish councils) as the building blocks of local democracy and clear powers of persuasion and percept. It is interesting that we have recently had the first vote to elect a town council in London in Queen Park, North Westminster. In addition every secondary school should be encouraged to have elected school councils (with some of the excitement transferred across from the United States) and the small number of Young Mayors be considerably expanded. 3. Principle Two Local Politics is a Team Sport We need to stress that most sustained change and improvement at a local level is as a result of a team approach. So far in England the vast majority of these teams tend to be from the three main political parties. However as events in both Northern Ireland and Scotland indicate these teams can change in terms of popular support and connection with local issues. As a matter of interest the Electoral Commission currently have over 300 political teams registered. In the 2010 Independents for Frome gained control of a large town council in Somerset from established parties. There are other aspects to the team aspect of local politics that need to be recognized. Whilst we do need to profile and promote the role of local councillors we also need to acknowledge that most local councillors are part of a wider team of active local citizens and organizations. The ability for local councillors to act as role models and advocates for this wider group will be a powerful influence in attracting a greater range of people into the councillor role. The final aspect of the team role is how local political leaders act in concert to advocate for greater profile and responsibilities. Too often a blind loyalty to national parties can prevent strong regional and local coalitions emerging. The American City Mayors Alliance regularly attracts the interest of Presidents and presidential candidates. A serving Prime Minister has yet to address the Local Government Conference. 4. Principle Three The Ability to Make a Difference I understand and accept that the Select Committee is reluctant to comment on the existing structure, funding and powers of local government. However it is impossible not to acknowledge that the limited extent of councillors to influence and co-ordinate the local public spend in their localities is a major barrier to the recruitment of capable and committed councillors. An excellent council like Kent has direct responsibility for just 1 billion of the 10 billion of public monies spent in the county. The many hundreds of new district councillors have yet to be told that they are responsible for less than 5% of the public monies spent in their localities. It may be neither possible or desirable to return the bulk of this local spend to the discretion of local councils. However I do think there are real opportunities for councils, especially first tier councils, to exercise more influence over the priorities of the organisations represented on local strategic partnerships. At present there are few opportunities for local initiative and creative thinking around the delivery of public services. The current pilots on community budgeting in Essex, Greater Manchester, Chester and Cheshire West and the triboroughs of Westminster, Kensington & Chelsea and Hammersmith & Fulham may have considerable implications. 5. Principle Four Encouraging Rather than Prescribing Change All political organizations are voluntary organizations and as such generally adverse to policy prescription. As an alternative we should be looking at ways that we can encourage more inclusive processes of recruitment and selection. However before we do so we do need to look at some supply side issues in regard to the missing generation of year olds. I understand the issues regarding remuneration and the move to a fulltime councillor role but it also an area where there is probably little consensus between the needs of local councillors and the views of the wider electorate and local media. It would also be counter-productive and possibly create new barriers to entry if we insisted on a full time role for all councillors. It is certainly true that the demands in larger councils especially at Leader/Executive level may well mean we move to a de-facto full time role. However we may also have to accept that to gain the required living wage political groups may have to accept a reduction of the number of councillors at that executive level. It is perhaps also necessary to acknowledge that some councillors do the bare minimum of work but because they represent safe wards they are immune from electoral pressure and can act as political bed-blockers. I think we do need to think of performance pressures ie some measures of performance which are understood by party members and the wider public that can be used to define effective performance by councillors at all levels. Currently the only performance measure is the obligation to attend one council meeting every three months.

242 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 172 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence However just as important is how we can encourage councillors of working age to regard service as councillors as both short term (up to two terms) and a career developer. In terms of profiling the role of councillors and the opportunity to gain transferable skills we need to win the hearts and minds of employers. Some employers such as Unilever and BAE Systems are very supportive of their staff becoming local councillors but this is not consistent. In the past the LGA supported a Good Employer Award to acknowledge the role of good employers and it may be appropriate in re-launch this award. The issue of the support provided to councillors by their councils is also critical to encouraging councillors in employment to take up senior positions. The London Borough of Westminster has a executive of which nearly all are in employment. This is achieved by providing an extensive team of personal assistants and researchers that work directly to them. Unfortunately this remains the exception rather than the rule. If we can increase the supply of interested candidates we need to return to the question of encouraging good behaviour amongst political organizations. All the available evidence suggests that where political organizations openly recruit and have a transparent and understandable selection process they are able to attract a more diverse group of candidates. The problem is that this process is largely confined to London Boroughs and other metropolitan areas such as Manchester and Liverpool and so far is not widely taken up nationally and across parties. The challenge is to encourage a more wider take-up of open recruitment and here we need to think of peer challenge and support. It may be slower than policy prescriptions but it has the merit of gaining ownership within the parties, encourages innovation and allows a competitive choice for the electorate. An example of the scope for self improvement is the Be a Councillor initiative by the LGA which has gained considerable success in the last two years. 6. Next Steps A major factor in the preservation of the existing status quo is the fact there is no consistent advocate for change. Most of the national parties have a passing interest in local elections and councillor selection. As the General Elections approaches it tends to become much fainter. At the same time local government and most of their agencies assume that the selection process is the distinct prerogative of political parties. If we are to disturb this equilibrium of inactivity we need to think about creating an advocate for local democracy that can address some of the complex issues involved in promoting and profiling the local elected role. Models do exist such as Industry and Parliament Trust which is supported by a large number of commercial organizations to encourage those with business experience to stand as MPs (a similar role is undertake by Trades Unions but currently restricted to one party). Equally the Hansard Society has a mission to promote parliamentary democracy and the work of Parliament. On an international level the Westminster Foundation encourages best practice and innovation amongst political parties in emerging democracies. A Local Democracy Foundation could replicate the beneficial features of all these organizations for the specific promotion of local democracy in England. It could be funded from existing funds designated for leadership improvement and capacity building in local government. At the same time we should; be encouraging the main political parties to establish arms-length organizations for their councillors (and potential councillors) which can more clearly articulate local policies and recruitment strategies within their respective party structures. I would be happy to discuss any of these suggestions with the Select Committee as appropriate. June 2012 Supplementary written evidence from Paul Wheeler, Director of Political Skills Forum (CC 25a) I was conscious that there were a couple of questions where some additional information was needed. In terms of performance measurement of councillors it is very important that this does not become some kind of rigid or overly bureaucratic system. I think it is much more a way of providing more information to party members (for those who represent political parties) and the wider public for all councillors. Oldham Council has produced an annual report form for councillors which will be made publically available on the web-site. 28 With this information the party members and wider audience at the selection and election stage can decide if their existing councillors have reached appropriate levels of performance and activity. One issue that the Committee may wish to consider is whether the current requirement for councillor activity (one committee meeting per cycle) before disqualification is sufficient. The additional issue is the role and purpose of a Local Democracy Advocacy Organisation. This can encourage more people to consider standing for election as elected representatives at all levels (schools/ 28

243 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 173 colleges, town/parish/neighbourhood and local councils etc). It could take over and expand the current LGA Be a Councillor Programme. Finally my observation is that in the UK we often have too many councillors on too few councils (eg Cornwall has over 120 councillors on one single unitary council). We do need to encourage more local town councils. If we do so we should accept that the existing unitary/district and county councils could comfortably see a reduction in their councillor numbers. October 2012 Written evidence from The Elections Centre, Plymouth University (CC 27) Obtaining information about the social characteristics of people who stand for local election is a key feature of the annual candidate surveys. In 2012 the survey was conducted online with candidates randomly selected from all those standing. A one in two sample was drawn with each candidate sent a letter to the address given on their nomination forms. The letter, timed to arrive shortly after the elections on 3 May, explained the purpose of the survey and provided instructions for online completion. Those candidates that did not wish to complete their survey online were given the opportunity to undertake a postal questionnaire. The data collected from the 2012 candidates broadly confirm the pattern of previous surveys undertaken since Table 1 shows that candidates are mostly men, more than half are aged 61 years or more and a large majority are of white ethnic origin. The under-representation of women, younger people and Black, Asian and other minority ethnic groups is as prevalent amongst candidates as it is amongst councillors. A majority, 59%, of people that stand hold a university degree or its equivalent qualification; many have higher degree also. They are overwhelmingly drawn from professional and managerial occupations. It is unsurprising that 28% are retired from work given the age profile. Candidates are asked whether they are currently resident in the ward that they fought in the local election. The 2012 figures show that 53% were resident but 47% lived outside the ward boundaries although some of these did report that they had once lived within the ward. These data are in line with other surveys with the exception of the London boroughs where the proportions were reversed with most candidates living outside the ward. Table 1 SOCIAL CHARACTERISTICS OF CANDIDATES CONTESTING 2012 LOCAL ELECTIONS Count Column N % gender male % female % Total 1, % age 35 yrs and under % yrs % yrs % yrs % 66 yrs and over % Total % ethnicity White 1, % Non-white % Total 1, % education No qualification % GCSE or A level % degree % Total % occupation Professional % Managerial/technical % Other % Total % employment Full/Part-time employment % Self employed % Retired % Other % Total % ward resident? Yes % No % Total % It is theoretically possible for a large-scale change in the social composition of council benches if we assume that all incumbents are defeated by rival candidates. One method for examining this possibility is to divide

244 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 174 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence respondents into one of four categories, viz, those standing for the first time, incumbents seeking re-election; former councillors and a final category reserved for people that have stood on more than one election but are never elected. Table 2 describes social characteristics within these four candidate categories. Currently under-represented groups (women, younger people, BME) are more likely to feature as first time candidates but with the exception of younger candidates the differences are rather small. Table 2 SOCIAL CHARACTERISTICS BY ELECTIVE STATUS Former Serial but First-time councillor, never elected candidate Incumbent non-incumbent candidate Column N % Column N % Column N % Column N % gender male 68.3% 74.2% 74.4% 75.8% female 31.7% 25.8% 25.6% 24.2% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% age 35 yrs and under 26.4% 9.2% 1.2% 18.4% yrs 12.5% 4.9% 7.3% 11.0% yrs 17.8% 19.7% 29.3% 20.7% yrs 26.6% 36.6% 32.9% 30.3% 66 yrs and over 16.7% 29.6% 29.3% 19.6% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% ethnicity White 95.9% 100.0% 96.5% 95.1% Non-white 4.1% 0.0% 3.5% 4.9% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% education No qualification 5.0% 4.2% 2.5% 5.7% GCSE or A level 41.4% 38.0% 35.8% 29.6% degree 53.7% 57.7% 61.7% 64.7% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% occupation Professional 47.8% 50.4% 56.8% 49.1% Managerial/technical 25.0% 28.8% 22.2% 27.4% Other 27.2% 20.9% 21.0% 23.5% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% employment Full/Part-time 38.2% 39.4% 36.6% 39.9% employment Self employed 16.8% 10.6% 18.3% 15.8% Retired 21.7% 40.1% 34.1% 28.2% Other 23.3% 9.9% 11.0% 16.1% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% ward resident? Yes 53.0% 60.0% 50.0% 51.7% No 47.0% 40.0% 50.0% 48.3% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% What motivates people to stand as candidates? Each year we ask candidates about the first time they stood for local election. Had they made that decision to stand or were they persuaded to stand by someone else in the first instance? Almost four in ten of our respondents stated that the decision to stand for the first time was entirely of their own making while six in ten stood after being asked to stand. For those people that took their own decision some 62% did so because they believed that by standing they could make a difference. This choice was a long way in front of two others an important step in political career and general volunteering reasons, each of which was chosen by 18% of respondents. The least popular option was knew someone else on the council, selected by just 3% of our respondents. Among those that were approached to stand the two clear leading chosen options were a fellow party member (61%) and a serving councillor (26%) while other sources were barely mentioned just 3%, for example, stood after being asked by a member of a local community group. Why were they selected? Candidates are presented a range of options and asked to select those that applied to their own selection as a candidate in One in eight believed that they were selected because they were the incumbent councillor seeking re-election. Slightly more, 17% thought that previously being a councillor played a part in their selection. Just over a quarter, 26%, felt they were chosen because they were likely to win. The most selected options were local resident (46%) and good reputation (55%) but it may also be worth noting that 28%

245 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 175 were chosen because they were the only volunteer and 36% because they had agreed to be a paper candidate only. These data are similar to those in previous surveys. Why don t others stand? Finding answers to why some people stand but others, equally capable of doing so, do not stand. In previous research we have tried to tap into this eligibility pool, attempting to seek out those people that might but don t stand. This research failed because we could not elicit sufficient responses from our targeted group to generate a meaningful sample; those that don t stand also don t participate in surveys! Nevertheless, local candidates are a useful resource for tapping into those factors that might discourage some people from standing. A series of possible explanations are presented to candidates with options ranging between strongly agree to strongly disagree (Table 3). Table 3 POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS FOR WHY MORE PEOPLE DON T STAND FOR ELECTION Column N % Being a councillor is too time consuming Strongly Agree 17.6% Agree 47.5% Neutral 18.6% Disagree 14.1% Strongly Disagree 2.1% Total 100.0% Councillors don t have the power to make a difference Strongly Agree 6.1% Agree 22.9% Neutral 17.3% Disagree 40.7% Strongly Disagree 12.9% Total 100.0% Councillors are insufficiently paid Strongly Agree 7.2% Agree 21.1% Neutral 29.7% Disagree 31.8% Strongly Disagree 10.1% Total 100.0% Intrusive media coverage of personal life may discourage some Strongly Agree 10.5% people from standing Agree 45.0% Neutral 20.9% Disagree 20.6% Strongly Disagree 3.1% Total 100.0% Political parties dominate local government and this discourages Strongly Agree 19.2% people who don t want a party allegiance Agree 41.5% Neutral 17.1% Disagree 18.0% Strongly Disagree 4.3% Total 100.0% A clear majority think that the image of being a councillor discourages people from standing almost twothirds agree/strongly agree that the job is too time-consuming. But the power of councillors is not the issue more than half disagree that a lack of power is a factor while more than four in ten don t think that remuneration is the issue. There is rather more support for the idea that being a public figure and the attention that attracts may suppress people s ambitions; 56% think that people are put off by the potential for media intrusion into their private lives. Despite the evidence that political party members do much of the candidate recruitment already there is a clear ambivalence towards their role. When asked whether people were dissuaded from standing because local government was dominated by local parties, one in five strongly agreed with a further 42% agreeing with this statement. By contrast, fewer than one in twenty strongly disagreed. And yet, when it was suggested that one way of improving recruitment would be for parties to select candidates that were not party members only one in four agreed/strongly agreed with this suggestion but the proportion disagreeing was more than one in every two candidates; parties are seen as part of the problem but not part of the solution. June 2012

246 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 176 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Written evidence from Leeds City Council/Commission on the Future of Local Government (CC 37) Leeds City Council led the Commission on the Future of Local Government, launched on 3 July Throughout the process of meeting, calling for evidence and writing the final report, the role of Councillors within the sector and the wider community was at the forefront of our work and thinking. We have attached a copy of our final report to our submission , though this can also be found on the website: The Commission concluded that local democracy needs to be revitalised and a new social contract devised to make local government and its councillors fit for the 21st century. The Commission has committed to produce a piece of work with INLOGOV (The University of Birmingham) around Member Development to put our ideas into practice. Having read the previous submissions to the Inquiry, we do not feel it necessary to submit a detailed and lengthy memorandum. Instead we wish to add our voice to those already heard by endorsing the views of, for example, Sunderland City Council, the LGA and the CfPS. In summary, from our experience of the evidence submitted to the Commission on the Future of Local Governments we believe there are several things the Inquiry needs to take into account: The image of local government: the media often portrays local government in a somewhat negative way, despite polls showing that it is more trusted than central government. 29 This can lead people to believe that councils and councillors are not efficient and do not have a positive role to play in their communities, when the exact opposite is true. Councillors often work tirelessly on behalf of their communities and for vulnerable people and service users, often with very little recognition. The many examples and stories of excellent public service need to be told, including by using new forms of more personalised and direct communications, to restore public faith in local government and democracy. Instead of being seen as the problem, local government and local politicians can be part of the solution to some of the big challenges facing the UK. However, given the perfect storm we face (of reduced budgets, rising demand and expectations, a crisis in confidence of politicians) there is a need and opportunity for councils and councillors to be more entrepreneurial and positive in their approach. Councillors can create opportunities for local communities and be visible, forceful, influential leaders who bring communities together to champion their voice and needs. Councillors should also act as door openers to services and other community actors, such as GPs, schools, businesses and third sector organisations. Complexity of the role and need for support: councillors need to be adequately supported both by their local authorities and by their political parties. Their role is multi-layered and complex, with councillors having to be effective communicators and strategic thinkers and switch roles almost constantly. Councils, and councillors, will need new approaches to be successful at utilising less formal social networks, participatory democracy, better engagement with young people and undertaking broader influencing role, rather than relying on the more formal, traditional structures we associate with the public sector and local government in particular. Leeds has excellent and comprehensive member support and development service, which we hope to learn from and build on in the Commission s work with INLOGOV (the University of Birmingham), to create a bespoke member Development programme. Devolving more power can also reinforce the value and role of all councillors and the different functions that they fulfil. Civic enterprise is a way of reconnecting, in particular, backbench councillors with their communities, allowing local citizens to better engage in the concept of a social contract with local government. We can do this by offering them choice and control over how services are designed and delivered, in return for an increased sense of personal responsibility and independence. Authorities should consider devolving powers (and budgets) around, for example, street cleansing and refuse, planning and housing to the local level, as Leeds has started to do with their Area Committees as a way of energising local democracy. Legitimacy of local government participation and engagement: councillors hold the local democratic mandate and this is fundamental to the legitimacy of local government as a voice for the whole of the place they serve and represent. Local ward councillors must reclaim their leadership role as the accepted and mandated voice of citizens who enable all sectors to take action together in campaigns to improve people s lives. Local government, through the democratic mandate, has a legitimate interest and role in holding to account and leading other local public organisations (such as health services), local businesses and civil society. We know that participation in traditional democratic processes, most significantly, voting in elections is declining. We can work to increase this, but have to recognise that it simply may not happen at least in the short term, in which case, we need to think about how we retain and strengthen this democratic legitimacy in other ways, including via better, more representative and ongoing engagement programmes. In conclusion, the Commission recognises the importance of councillors roles and suggests that there is a pressing need to strengthen both the image of local government and its councillors and their role in community 29 See recent polls by Ipsos MORI and YouGov.

247 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 177 life and decision making and to revitalise local democracy. At the same time, councillors must be enabled to fulfil their complex roles through adequate support and development. The Commission on the Future of Local Government along with Leeds City Council is committed to this agenda and looks forward to the findings of the Select Committee. We would be happy also to take part in any of the planned discussions. July 2012 Written evidence from Cllr Rowan J Draper (CC 42) About the Author Councillor R J Draper was elected to Stafford Borough Council by the Littleworth ward with 1,043 votes on a turnout of 43% in the ward, and 45.93% borough-wide, in May 2011 for the Labour Party as a first-time candidate. He currently serves on the following committees: Community Services Scrutiny Committee, Audit and Accounts Committee, Member Facilities working group, Stafford Borough Twinning Organisation and Stafford Borough Horticultural Committee. He was locally schooled at Blessed William Howard R.C High School followed by study at Stafford College. He attended Newman University College, Birmingham and graduated with an upper second class honours degree in Drama. Whilst studying for his degree he was twice elected to Newman Students Union as Sports Development Officer and had leading roles in sports teams and activity groups including Co-Director of the University s music and drama society. He joined the Labour Party following the results of the 2010 General Election and has since served as Youth and Students Officer ( ) for Stafford s constituency Labour Party and Secretary for Staffordshire Young Labour ( ). Recommendations That the committee looks at a way of standardising the allowances paid to councillors throughout the country based on common factors: electorate size, service provision, expected hourly contribution (be it in council meetings or otherwise), management of work/council schedule. Introduction I attended Blessed William Howard, a Catholic comprehensive High School serving the Stafford and district area in the Archdiocese of Birmingham, during Following GCSE study I enrolled at Stafford College until 2004 where I completed BTEC First and National Diploma s in Performing Arts. Prior to higher education study, during , I was employed in the public house industry and disillusioned with politics. Life was focused on working enough hours on the national minimum wage to support a rented property, living a typical early 20s lifestyle and trying to gain opportunity for promotion, and developing a career with vocational study including a foundation modern apprenticeship in bar service. During my undergraduate study my interest within government, the politics of higher education and public service progressively changed. Inspired by the commitment I had made to students of Newman University College as their union s executive officer for sport. This opportunity opened a number of doors to organisations such as the National Union of Students, the British Universities Colleges Sport, and the Students Rugby Football Union; all of which enhanced my education and professional skill set. These experiences culminated in my decision to join a political party in the aftermath of the 2010 General Election. 1. What made you stand for election to the council? 1.1 I first thought about standing for election to the local council after I had graduated from University, and before I had been involved with my local party. When I considered it I thought it would be incredibly difficult to get selected, finance a campaign and even tougher to get a message across to the electorate. After this consideration I put it to the back of my mind. 1.2 As the selection process neared I started to consider it again and the following factors influenced my decision to stand for election: 1.3 University Experience: My time at Newman University College broadened my horizons sufficiently and enabled me to develop in countless ways. One of them was through instilling a public service ethic and helping others, which I built on as a Students Union officer, that it just seemed like the right next step in my own personal development. 1.4 Party Relationship: Being a new member to the local party I wanted to make as full and robust a contribution as possible and to show that I was capable of being considered a viable council candidate in the

248 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 178 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence future. Being selected for a Conservative held seat, with the potential to be a close marginal, looked like a great opportunity to learn the ropes of canvassing, running a campaign and being an election candidate with no expectation to win the seat. 1.5 Government Mid-Terms: Previous council elections in 2003 and 2007 had displayed the full-force of the anti-government sentiment against Labour. With the introduction of a Conservative-led government, and many Liberal Democrats breaking their personal pledges to students on tuition fees, it was obvious that this election would be a good opportunity for any Labour candidate with the will and desire to get elected. 1.6 Representing the Community: The average age of Councillors in local government at the time I stood for election was 57 and increased to 59 after my election. My local authority has a majority of retired members of the community as councillors, and very few under 30, and my local party had even less. Whilst it was not an overwhelming factor in my decision to stand it did however play an influential part in justifying my candidacy with the electorate during the campaign on their doorstep. When deciding to stand I wanted to show my section of the community that we could have an influence over the community and local government. 1.7 Making a difference: Stephen Frears wrote for the Gordon Brown character in his 2003 film The Deal the dialogue that, when talking to the Tony Blair character after refusing a promotion in the Scottish office, Isn t that what we came into politics for deep down we won t be able to change the world until we have the big job and I believe that this is an influential maxim on members of the councillor community. We get involved because we want to be involved and able to make a difference. 1.8 Do you want to be an MP? Many young people involved with party politics find themselves being asked whether they want to go on to become an MP, especially young councillors, and the evidence supports the notion that many become Councillors because it enables them to gain a grounding or foundation in skills and experiences relevant to standing to become a Member of Parliament later on: % (or 305) of all sitting MPs (see Appendix 1) have previously served in Local Government either as Councillors for Parish, Town, Community, Borough, District, County or members of the London Assembly % of current Conservative MPs have served a minimum of one year as a Councillor or Assembly Member as opposed to 53% for Labour and 57% for the Liberal Democrats Members of minor parties and those members who serve Parliament through the Speaker s Office having served in local government totals 54% Eric Pickles (Bradford), Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith & Fulham), Henry Smith (West Sussex County), David Blunkett (Sheffield), Brandon Lewis (Brentwood), Clive Betts (Sheffield), Kris Hopkins (Bradford), Alan Whitehead (Southampton) also show a symbolic trend of leaders in local government going on to become members of Parliament. 1.9 It stands to reason that with a convention as high as 53% of parliamentary Labour Party members having served in local government that any individual who wanted to pursue that path would be well-served by becoming a local councillor so that they could pursue the option later in life, if they so chose. 2. To what extent has your experience so far lived up to your expectations? 2.1 Being an elected representative of the community is unlike any experience I have had previously and unlikely to be matched by any other I have in the immediate future. However I can t say it s fully lived up to expectations when you consider that many expectations will have been influenced by the The West Wing, Borgen, The Thick of It, Yes Minister and House of Cards. The drama, tension and action for many of the characters aren t the same for being a backbench opposition member of local government outside of a major city. 2.2 Making the transition from a Students Union Executive Officer to party political councillor has been quite a leap of differing expectations to the way I approach meetings, preparations and building relationships with fellow members. I think that all of the skills I have learnt from this have lived up to expectations and was one of the reasons I stood to learn more about politics in practice. 2.3 Though I think that there should be more standardised induction procedures attached to new councillors, perhaps delivered by an independent body or the local government association, able to deliver a structured programme of education over the various roles and powers of being a successful councillor (without the focus being on local government leaders). 2.4 Many of the party specific events I was invited to were delivered at short notice or based in London and both of these factors contributed to my being unable to attend. Many of the local authority delivered sessions were for combined political groups and combined experience levels so weren t fully able to address all of the questions and queries I had. 2.5 I have also seen some best practice I will be proposing to my local authority from Tameside Council where they held a mock Council meeting for first-time members to learn the ropes before entering into their first Council meeting. These kinds of initiatives can help detoxify the political imagery that councils and

249 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 179 political parties give to local government because the status of the member is given more preference than the needs or desires of the group to educate in only their traditions. 2.6 The decision to host this inquiry, and a recent discussion I took part in (on attracting more young councillors to local government on the guardian website), shows that there is more to do to attract and keep young councillors in local government. One issue that always props up in conversation is members allowances. Many colleagues I have spoken to are disappointed that their authority, because of the political sensitivity of the issue, are not recompensed as effectively as colleagues elsewhere in carrying out their work. 2.7 My local authority raised its allowances this municipal year to approximately 3,600 per annum basic allowance. The neighbouring County Council s allowances are approximately 8,000 per annum basic allowance. The difference allocated for a basic councillor can mean the difference between being able to take on the role of a councillor and not. None of us, I hope, are in local government for the money but allowances should be set a reasonable standard for councillors. I would hope that one recommendation coming out of this inquiry is that the committee looks at a way of standardising the allowances paid to councillors based on common factors: electorate size, service provision, expected hourly contribution (be it in council meetings or otherwise), management of work/council schedule. 2.8 Being able to meet and network with other young Labour councillors has greatly influenced my experience of local government. This was facilitated through followers on twitter, the local government association and its young councillor s training weekend conference in November The people I met their have been great confidants to me over the last year and have helped support me through the high s and low s of being a councillor. We need more of this to support young councillors because whilst local government continues to be an arena for the retired, or closed to retired, we will need avenues for young councillors to share and support each other. 2.9 Out of this came a group we unofficially dubbed Councillors on Tour the Young Labour Councillors Support Network an idea we have launched on facebook, twitter, delivered a website and setup an list to be able to support and network with other young councillors within our party My experience has instilled a belief in me that local authorities should not only be a place where retired professionals gather to govern the city but should be living, breathing and accountable organisations that reflect their community. For many in local government we are too quick to explain away why students, manual labourers, single mum s and self-employed members of our community don t take an active role in our Council s rather than facing up to why they aren t involved and why there is a pre-conceived bias towards retirees making up the bulk of local government benches. 3. Do you think you will stand for re-election? Why/why not? 3.1 Before standing for re-election I will be influenced by a number of different factors that include the following seven areas that I would wish to have addressed in a satisfactory manner: Employment Status. Career Prospects. Council Responsibilities. Work Life Balance. Financial Position. Relationship Status. Family Life Employment status: Am I employed? If so, what type of contract am I serving? How many hours am I expected to work? How flexible would my employer be? How understanding are they, or would they be? Career Prospects: Where am I employed? Does it have suitable stability for the next 48 months? Does it look like a promotion is on the cards within the next months? Council responsibilities: What is the likelihood of my party taking control of the council s administration? If it is foreseeable, what is the likely duties I can expect to take on? Am I within months of being selected to serve in the cabinet or shadow cabinet? Am I within months of being selected to chair a scrutiny or regulatory committee? Work Life Balance: Do I have a reasonable standard of living outside of employment? Am I socialising enough? Do I have enough extra-curricular activities already being pursued? Am I renting? Do I own my own home? What is the likelihood of achieving owning my own home within the next 60 months? Financial position: Do I have the money to support being a councillor? Does the authority have the budget requisite to support my time and contribution through their allowance scheme? Relationship status: Am I in a relationship? If I am in a relationship, how long for? Is my partner accepting and/or supportive of time spent serving as a Councillor? If I am single, what is the likelihood of a permanent relationship in the next months? If the likelihood is

250 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 180 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence great, what is the potential for a partner to be accepting or supportive of a partner involved within party politics? Family Life: If I am in a relationship and have had a reasonable amount of longevity within it, am I in a position to see having children as on the horizon? Are my partner and I looking to have children within the next months? 3.2 If these elements did not indicate what I had anticipated by 2015 then I would have to re-consider standing again but that I hasten to add that it would not preclude me from re-standing later on in life once those features had been fulfilled. 3.3 Should the answers to these questions indicate a stable living position, with the opportunity to continue council commitments, and supportive of a committed relationship with children on the horizon I would strongly consider re-standing for election in APPENDIX 1 FORMER COUNCILLORS NOW SERVING AS MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT Conservative (118/305) Labour (135/253) Liberal Democrat (33/57) Peter Aldous Diane Abbott Norman Baker David Amess Bob Ainsworth Alan Beith Stuart Andrew Heidi Alexander Gordon Birtwistle James Arbuthnot Ian Austin Tom Brake Gavin Barwell Adrian Bailey Annette Brooke Richard Benyon Hugh Bayley Paul Burstow Paul Beresford Stuart Bell Lorely Burt Andrew Bingham Hilary Benn Vincent Cable Brian Binley Joe Benton Tim Farron Bob Blackman Clive Betts Lynne Featherstone Nick Boles Roberta Blackman-Woods Don Foster Peter Bone Hazel Blears Steve Gilbert Angie Bray (AM) David Blunkett Mike Hancock Fiona Bruce Kevin Brennan David Heath Robert Buckland Lyn Brown John Hemming Aidan Burley Nick Brown Martin Horwood Conor Burns Russell Brown Julian Huppert David Burrowes Chris Bryant Norman Lamb Alistair Burt Karen Buck John Leech Neil Carmichael Ronnie Campbell Greg Mulholland Rehman Chisti Martin Caton John Pugh Christopher Chope Jenny Chapman Alain Reid Therese Coffey Tom Clarke John Rogerson Greg Clark Vernon Coaker Bob Russell Glyn Davies Anne Coffey Adrian Sanders Caroline Dinenage Michael Connarty Robert Smith Johnathan Djanogly Rosie Cooper Andrew Stunnell Phillip Dunne Jeremy Corbyn Sarah Teather Michael Ellis David Crausby David Ward Jane Ellison Mary Creagh Roger Williams Tobias Ellwood Stella Creasy Stephen Williams Charlie Elphicke Alex Cunningham Jenny Willott Graham Evans Jim Cunningham Simon Wright 33 David Evennett Tony Cunningham Mark Field Nic Dakin Mark Francois Simon Danczuk Mike Freer Alistair Darling Lorraine Fullbrook Wayne David Mark Garnier Ian Davidson Richard Graham Geraint Davies Chris Grayling John Denham Justine Greening Jim Dobbin Dominic Grieve Frank Dobson Robert Halfon Jim Dowd Stephen Hammond Clive Efford Greg Hands Louise Ellman Rebecca Harris Bill Esterson John Hayes Frank Field Gordon Henderson Robert Flello

251 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 181 Conservative (118/305) Labour (135/253) Liberal Democrat (33/57) George Hollingberry Phillip Hollobone Kris Hopkins Gerald Howarth John Howell Mark Hunter Stuart Jackson Margot James Gareth Johnson Andrew Johnson Marcus Jones Simon Kirby Greg Knight Mark Lancaster Pauline Latham Andrea Leadsom Phillip Lee Jeremy Lefroy Edward Leigh Brandon Lewis Iain Liddell Grainger Jack Lopresti Johnathan Lord Karen Lumley Francis Maude Teresa May Karl McCartney Patrick McLoughlin Nigel Mills Anne Milton Anne Marie Morris Stephen Mosley David Mowatt David Mundell Sheryll Murray Robert Neill Sarah Newton Caroline Nokes David Nuttall Matthew Offord Eric Ollerenshaw Guy Opperman Jim Paice Neil Parish Mark Pawsey Eric Pickles Daniel Poulter Mark Pritchard Mark Reckless John Redwood Malcolm Rifkind Andrew Robathan Andrew Rosindell Lee Scott Alec Shelbrooke Mark Simmonds Henry Smith Mark Spencer Andrew Stephenson John Stevenson Iain Stewart Gary Streeter Graham Stuart Julian Sturdy Robert Syms Justin Tomlinson Paul Flynn Yvonne Fovargue Barry Gardiner Sheila Gilmore Mary Glindon Roger Godsiff Paul Goggins Nia Griffith Andrew Gwynne David Hamilton Fabian Hamilton David Hands Mark Hendrick Stephen Hepburn David Heyes Meg Hillier Margaret Hodge Kate Hoey Jim Hood Kelvin Hopkins George Howarth Sian James Diana Johnson Graham Johnson Helen Jones Kevan Jones Susan Elan Jones Tessa Jowell Barbara Keeley Sadiq Khan David Lammy (AM) Ian Lavery Mark Lazarowicz Chris Leslie Ivan Lewis Tony Lloyd Andy Love Ian Lucas Fiona Mactaggart Khalid Mahmood John Mann Steve McCabe Michael Mann Kerry McCarthy Siobhain McDonagh John McDonnell Alison McGovern Jim McGovern Anne McGuire Iain McKenzie Alan Meale Ian Mearns Alun Michael Madeleine Moon Graeme Morrice Graeme Morris George Mudie Meg Munn Paul Murphy Ian Murray Lisa Nandy Fiona O Donnell Sandra Osborne Albert Owen Teresa Pearce Toby Perkins

252 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 182 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Conservative (118/305) Labour (135/253) Liberal Democrat (33/57) Elizabeth Truss Stephen Pound Andrew Turner Nick Raynsford Martin Vickers Jonathan Reynolds Charles Walker Linda Riordan SNP (1/6) Angela Watkinson Steve Rotheram Mike Weir Mike Weatherley Chris Ruane Sinn Fein (2/5) Heather Wheeler Virendra Sharma Paul Maskey Chris White Barry Sheerman Conor Murphy Craig Whittaker Jim Sheridan Plaid Cymru (1/3) Gavin Williamson Dennis Skinner Johnathan Edwards Rob Wilson Andy Slaughter Green (1/1) George Young Andrew Smith Caroline Lucas Nadhim Zahawi 118 Angela Smith Alliance (1/1) Nick Smith Naomi Long Jack Straw SDLP (3/3) Graham Stringer Mark Durkan Gerry Sutcliffe Alasdair McDonnell Gareth Thomas Margaret Ritchie Stephen Timms DUP (6/8) John Trickett Gregory Campbell Derek Twigg Nigel Dodds Stephen Twigg William McCrea Valerie Vaz Jim Shannon Joan Walley David Simpson Dave Watts Sammy Wilson Alan Whitehead Speaker of the House Chris Williamson John Bercow David Winnick Nigel Evans Mike Wood Lindsay Hoyle David Wright 135 Dawn Primarolo Conservative Total Labour Total Lib Dem Total Other Total (305) = 38% 127 (253) = 53% 28 (57) = 57% 17 (35) = 54% 305/650 = 46% of all MPs have been Councillors July 2012 Written evidence from Cllr Alycia James (CC 44) Deciding to stand to be elected as a Councillor for the first time. The multiple of roles of Councillors: fixer, facilitator and community leader. Support (or lack of support) from Councils for newly elected councillors. What more could be done to prepare councillors for their role. The choice between full involvement and a full-time job and the financial implications of being a councillor. Overloading of councillors with paperwork and a possible role for caseworkers. The importance of recognising the roles and skills of Councillors, especially by employers. How do we get the next generation involved? Cabinet versus Backbench and Controlling Group versus Opposition. Deciding to stand for re-election. How do we make things better and encourage more people to get involved? I was elected for the first time in 2011 for the ward of Warton on Lancaster City Council at the age of 29. Shortly afterwards I was elected Deputy Leader of the Conservative Group, the second biggest group on our Council. I serve on a number of committees and been Chairman and Vice-Chairman of three separate committees within the last year. Originally I studied medicine in London as well as History of Medicine and following on from I entered the business world where I have worked for companies ranging from a small family run business to large multi-nationals. I m still in business trying to balance work, being a Voice for Pancreatic Cancer UK as well as being a Councillor. People often ask why I decided to stand at the local elections to become a Councillor and I cannot answer that in one sentence but a few of my reasons are echoed by many who also serve their communities. Quite

253 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 183 simply, I wanted to make a difference, you hear that phrased bounded around but still it is true. I wanted to help make some people s lives a little bit better, to have a positive impact on the area I hoped to represent. It certainly wasn t for the money; in local government politicians rarely do the role for the money as to be completely honest the remuneration is terrible. I also felt that I could do a better job than the previous councillor, who nearly had to go to by-election due to non-attendance of meetings. I thought the community deserved better. The other reason why I stood was that I was inspired by a young councillor and friend, who showed me what I could do to help my community and helped me gain the confidence to stand. I needed someone who could see my potential, to encourage me. Only six months before the election I said that I could never put myself forward, as to do so seemed a very scary thing to do, to put yourself out there to be judged by thousands of people but the encouragement he gave me helped me overcome my fears. I wonder how many other people out there, who would make excellent councillors, lack the confidence to put their names forward and what we can all do to help. Councillors fulfil many roles not least that of leaders of communities and facilitators. Many confuse leadership with doing everything yourself, at first I too fell into this trap. We cannot take on the running of every single project in the area, we as leaders, need to help guide the community, help give them the tools and overall be facilitators. Sometimes you are needed just to get the ball rolling, an odd letter to this organisation or in order to help a project move along, to co-ordinate between the council and community groups. The perfect example in my ward is about allotments, a community group has been trying for some time to get the project moving and a few questions of officers, a challenging question to a cabinet member in council and that little bit of guidance has moved the project on that bit more, given greater motivation to get things done and hopefully I can help keep the momentum up. The residents can gain a sense of achievement for themselves in a project such as this as well as creating a great asset for the whole area which will last for many years to come. We are quite lucky in our council that we have councillors who range from teenagers through to, I suspect, early eighties and a good ratio of male to female. Overall though, there are a lot of councillors in the over 50s age group and very few councillors from ethnically diverse backgrounds however this may actually be a reflection the very low percentage of people from a BME background who live within the district. i The question is whether we, as a council, will be able to retain this mixture and balance over the years to come as there are a number challenges it will face, for example, will the students stay on, if the choice between Council and a full-time job comes along, what will they choose? I don t think that the council can prepare you properly for your role and I ve spoken to many other new councillors who have felt the same. When you first get elected you are bombarded with briefings about what departments do but a simple list of what is the responsibility of a parish council, city council and county council would have been ideal. Many new councillors I feel overwhelmed when they first start, myself included, not knowing completely where the lines are drawn, which council and even which department does what. The amount of information is vast, you soon get overloaded but it still does not prepare you. Ideally, the situation would be that you shadow the councillor you re taking over from for a while before, allowing as smooth a transition as possible for residents, however when you take the seat from a different political party you know this is unlikely to happen. Within a few weeks of being elected I was faced with a particularly unpleasant resident who was very threatening to me, to the extent of me having regular contact with the police about him, the council had no methods to deal with such behaviour and thus provided no support at all. A greater mentoring scheme for new councillors I feel would be most welcome, many experienced councillors have gone through a multitude of the things we start to come across and could help the new ones grow into their roles feeling more supported. I was relatively lucky, outside my group I made friends with councillors all over the country, through the Local Government Association (LGA) and Conservative Councillors Association (CCA) and I even was given a mentor, who I am still in contact with. Many councillors don t use these organisations and I myself found them a valuable lifeline in learning my new roles. Being a councillor is not easy though. The amount of time which I commit to the roles I hold is extensive, time off work is very difficult for me to get, if I don t work then I don t get paid. I have had to make a choice between my involvement and a properly paid full time job. I now have two part-time jobs which are poorly paid but are willing to be more flexible around my council duties. This is a necessity to me as my council allowance, like many other councils, doesn t equate to anything like a part-time salary despite the hours, in fact what I get is far below minimum wage. Between casework, meetings, writing speeches, investigating various matters, knocking on doors and the many other things we do as councillors, for me I know the hours I put in regularly exceed that which I did in my previous full-time job. It is exceptionally difficult in our council to have a full-time job and fully participate on council with various committees, especially as many as still, ridiculously held during weekdays with very few meetings out of the 9am-5pm timeframe. A significant problem which also needs addressed is in regards to the paperwork. There is so much at times it is hard to read it all, especially if you have a job as well, how are you supposed to contribute properly and make decisions in these circumstances when you may not know all the facts? I myself know the paperwork is excessive and I wonder if at times what could be put in 50 words is made in to 500. When you get to a meeting they can often be rubber stamping decisions and may seem pointless to some people. So you may have struggled to wade through many hundreds of pages, taken time off work to attend the meeting to feel that it was all a waste of time.

254 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 184 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence I ve heard of a suggestion about the potential role for caseworkers. I think it is a great idea although the case work is my favorite part and indeed most of the time the most rewarding part of being a councillor but perhaps they could have a part to play in future. To many young councillors it appears that a large number of employers don t recognize how great being a councillor truly is. The knowledge and skills which I ve learnt in the last year are probably greater than all my years at university. Sadly, last year when I was looking for a new job I was encouraged to actually play down my role as councillor as it may prevent me from getting a job. I d become Deputy Leader of the second biggest party on council, I was Vice-chairman of two committees (Personnel and Budget & Performance) and the Chairman of another (The Joint Consultative Committee). I ve gained in confidence and capability in public speaking and presentations, I ve learned huge amounts about personnel issues, budget issues and many more. I ve had to sit down and make some tough decisions over the last year, decisions which affect many other people s lives and think strategically about the best use of a multi-million pound budget. Despite all this, my achievements were seen by many employers as a negative rather than a positive thing, many were concerned that I would not be able to commit fully to their company. That s when you face the dilemma of continuing on and in some cases facing financial hardship doing what you were elected to do, and in my case, love, or pursue a potentially less fulfilling but financially rewarding career. Sadly, it is still hard to engage certain groups within communities such as young people. Many are not interested in politics and don t trust politicians which makes it very difficult to get them to engage with us. I ve tried so many approaches from Question Time panels, Local Democracy Days, and a number of other things as simple as just talking to them in the street or at events. In part I wish we had ward budgets like some other councils which could be used in part to help reach out to these parts of our communities. Another downside is which applies to both backbench and opposition councillors is that most decisions made are made by cabinet with some going to full council. Being in opposition can mean that you end up having little say about what happens in my own ward at times. In addition to this, a lot of people still get confused between which council does what. In both cases you can find yourself being blamed for actions of other councillors or councils, decisions which were not your own and you could have little or no involvement with. My experience as a councillor has so far lived exceeded my expectations for the most part. I often get letters or s thanking me from residents but I know that many other councillors here don t. A survey within our council revealed that many councillors didn t feel that were getting job satisfaction but for the most part I honestly feel that you get out of it what you put in. My safety campaign is a perfect example, there was a fear among some residents about cold-callers so I gave everyone a no cold caller card to display if they chose and advice about how to keep safe. It was very popular with residents, most especially older ones. It was a simple campaign but very much appreciated. Seeing things I ve done to help shape your community for the better gives great satisfaction. At times I ve noticed that it s sometimes the very small issues which matter the most and the appreciation shown in recognition makes all the long hours worthwhile. Despite all the downsides I will be standing for re-election, in fact I love being a councillor so much I m standing in the County Council elections too. It has been the most rewarding experience of my life and I cannot recommend it highly enough. I even have my eye of a couple of people who have the potential to be great councillors, I hope that my passion and enthusiasm for the role can rub off on them. There are still things to be done to make it better, to make it easier to take on a role like this and to be able to stay in these positions. First, I believe wholeheartedly that we need to show off our councillors, to show the nation what we really do. Perhaps more will people will want to take on the role if it is portrayed more as something good and worthwhile. Councillors are often subjected to negative press but we need to turn the tides and show the positive things we do. We also need to show to our businesses what a great thing it is to have a councillor onboard, the skills they have from such a role and make it a benefit to have them not an impairment. We need to help guide people, offering more support and encouragement for those thinking of standing and once elected supporting them through the first few months, perhaps year. Perhaps we should consider guiding councils on better forms of training from the very beginning. We must tackle the top-up pension culture, otherwise we will end up (as we already are) with a higher and higher average age of councillor. Making meetings friendlier for those who want and need to have jobs. Councils have to look at the levels of paperwork they produce, reduce it if they can or give people more time to read it when possible, rather than just a few short days. It is time to look again at workload and remuneration for it, if we expect councillors to take on more responsibilities then we must pay them fairly or perhaps introduce shared caseworkers to help take off some of the workload. Councillors play a vital role in their communities and should be recognised as such. There are always going to be up days and down days but overall it is by far the best thing I ve ever done, I love being a councillor and I would recommend to anyone to take on the challenge. August 2012

255 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 185 Reference i Full article detailing latest population estimates by ethnic group Lancashire County Council website. Written evidence from Cllr Marianne Overton (CC 58) Introduction to Cllr Marianne Overton Marianne is an Independent Councillor who has been elected by the public as a Parish, North Kesteven District and Lincolnshire County Councillor at each election since Subsequently Marianne was elected as a regional representative for East Midlands and last year as Leader of the Independent Group and Vice Chairman of the Local Government Association. Her community engagement is such that she attains among the highest number of votes in the County with turnouts as high as 70%. Marianne also stood as an MP in 2010 and was one of just a handful of Independent candidates who kept her deposit. Marianne also sits on the board of NHS Lincolnshire. Other posts have included being a governor on the board of the University of Lincoln, Chairman of the Society of Biology, Chairman of Relate Lincolnshire and many local organisations. Marianne has lived and worked in several countries, running expeditions for volunteers in Central Africa. Marianne took part in the Pan-African Peer Reviews, in partnership with the United Cities and Local Government Africa (UCLGA), working to improve the National Local Government Association in Ghana. Marianne is an experienced and qualified teacher of Biology and Science to A level and is involved in running family business interests. What is different about an Independent Councillor? The approach of Independent Councillors setting an agenda in partnership with their communities. Independents as listening, diverse and representative councillors. Challenges of party politics as a disincentive to local leadership. Motivation and Disincentives? Many Independents are driven by the desire to achieve something useful in their communities, rather than a desire to be part of a team, but they need both to be effective. Independents need to dare to be different and determined enough to succeed, but sensitive enough to work successfully in a team. Party politics is a major disincentive to all councillors. Community budgets under councillors or mayors. Barriers to Standing for Election, in Practice Size of election areas. Finance. Unfair press coverage. Petty politics, especially in a tribalistic environment, leading to a fear of unfair disadvantage for communities. Time commitment, with competing demands. Party machinery and use of postal votes. Importance of Community engagement and the effect of reducing the number of councillors on the role of engagement. Role of an Independent Community Leader Listen: Pickup the issues that matter to people. Sources: Media, people who know, people you know and others at events or behind doors. Ask widely to get a clear view: Attend and organise meetings, maintain networks, newsletter to residents, respond to correspondence. Question Authority: Find who is responsible or has the ability to influence. Frame the issues raised into questions to help identify best solutions. What change would be needed to improve the situation? Test wider opinion: Newsletter to residents, people you know whose opinion you trust. Identify action Required:

256 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 186 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Campaign: Write to press and media, attend and organise meetings, posters, petition, leaflets, door knock, seek resolution with those in authority. Additional Roles of a Councillor Councillor has additional roles in influencing policy to support local needs. Example: Lincolnshire County Council Waste. Council support for councillor s work in community leadership is vital. Councillors also have an additional role in influencing National policy to support local needs. Skills and Training Lincolnshire County and North Kesteven District Councils have both been leaders in this field being among the earliest to win accreditation. The training and officer support is directed towards the course of the Institution, rather than the local leadership role and a number of tasks are prevented on the premise that they are seen as political. Not all staff see themselves as serving all councillors. The single-party Executive has no incentive to be inclusive and indeed, may well see an advantage in disenfranchising opposition councillors with overt rudeness, even in public meetings. This tribalistic approach is deeply undermining of democratically elected representatives and there is no mechanism to kerb it. This leads to lower turnouts at election and many good councillors leave in order to find something more rewarding to do, reducing the quality of local government. More support is needed in administration, research and individual training budgets. IT support is hampered by long-term contracts which are not fast-moving enough. Cllr Marianne Overton BSc(Hons) Leader of the Independent Group on the National Association of Local Government October 2012 Supplementary written evidence from the Department for Communities and Local Government (CC 00a) Thank you for the opportunity you afforded me of appearing before your committee to discuss the importance of the role of councillors in the community. During our discussions, I undertook to consider and write to you on three points: the possibility of councils appointing an independent body to make decisions (as opposed to giving advice) about councillors allowances; whether councillors in employment should have the option of receiving loss of earnings compensation; and the possibility of legislation to prevent employers discriminating against councillors. Decisions by Independent Body on Allowances The essential elements of any arrangements for setting the remuneration, be it allowances, pay, or pensions, for elected representatives, are an element of objective independence and clear accountability for the decision taken. In this way, those whom through their taxes fund the elected representatives and are served by them can have confidence that their representatives remuneration is fair and appropriate As we discussed, under the current arrangements for councillors, independence is provided by the independent remuneration panels to whose recommendations regard must be had. Accountability is ensured by all decisions on allowances being required to be taken in the open by the full council whose members must face their electorate through the ballot box. You asked me whether an authority should be able to put in place an independent body not only to advise on but to decide councillor allowances. As we discussed, I am clear that the allowances are and should be a local matter, and that authorities themselves are best placed to consider what is appropriate in their circumstances. I would see no benefit in having some new central body to make recommendations or to decide allowances across the whole of local government. If the proposal was that each authority should establish an independent panel, or use its existing panel, to decide allowances, then, having reflected on this, it remains my view that it is best for the councillors themselves, with their understanding of their local circumstances, to take the final view on what are appropriate allowances in all the circumstances of their council. Notwithstanding, I note that the Taxpayers Alliance has undertaken some research which is critical of the composition of Independent Remuneration Panels. I am open-minded to reform of such procedural processes

257 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 187 Loss of Earnings Compensation You suggested that an option may be to provide for loss of earnings compensation for people losing out on their income because of the time they spend on council work, and which would not be available to those who, for whatever reason, did not lose out on their income. Being a councillor is a voluntary public service; it is not a salaried job. In principle, councillors are already compensated for loss of earnings as allowances are intended to ensure that councillors are not out-of-pocket as a result of their public duties. The existing guidance states that the basic allowance, which all councillors receive, is intended to recognise the time commitment of all councillors, including such inevitable calls on their time as meetings with officers and constituents and attendance at political group meetings. Legislation to Prevent Employers Discriminating Against Councillors In our conversation, I was asked about discrimination by employers. I said that I had not seen any specific cases but that if there was a specific example I would be happy to look at it and consider what was behind it before commenting in a broader sense on any specific issues. That said, I believe the last administration looked into this as part of their consideration as to whether councillors could have paid leave from their employment. They were going to work with a range of employers on a campaign to persuade them that time away from the office should not be viewed as wasted time, but as part of an individual s training and development. My view however that is this is best achieved locally rather than by direction from the centre. I would hope and expect employers and employees to work together to make provision for an employee being a councillor, or indeed any voluntary work. And I think there is a role here too for councils and councillors, engaging with the businesses in their patch. Such engagement should involve discussion between a councillor or prospective councillor and their employer about the roles and responsibilities of being a councillor, how this might be undertaken in a way that is most practicable for a councillor and employer, and the mutual benefit to both the council and the employer of the skills of such an employee. However I am very clear that this is not the time to further constrain employment laws by, for instance, compelling small businesses to do without one of their workforce at critical moments whilst serving as a councillor. Placing further restrictions on employers when growth is the priority cannot be justified. November 2012 Practicalities of being a Councillor Summary Written evidence from Cllr Robert Knowles (CC 04) The time required to perform the duties and functions of a District Councillor, restricts those able to be a councillor. The allowances paid, after tax, can result in members being out of pocket. Every increasing traffic and other social media, will doubtless result in few members standing for re-election. I am the leader of Waverley Borough Council, and was first elected to the Council in May 2007, becoming Leader in May My Council consists of 57 elected members, covering a large rural district with four towns and a number of villages, all are different and have very little in common. As Leader of the Council, I work an average 60 hours a week, and my deputy puts in a similar number of hours, for the huge allowance of 500 (five hundred) a year. I have a cabinet of 10 members, the majority of which put in some 30 hours or more per week on their Executive role. In addition my authority has a number of committees, the Licensing committee of 12 members, sits during the day, which is unusual as most meetings are in the evening, but having to sit to hear applications for various licences, the committee is required to sit during working hours. The Council being the planning authority has four area Planning Committees, these have been introduced to make decision making on the important issue of planning local to the area concerned, this is popular with our residents as it is local councillors making a local decision. My Council moved to this system in 2008, before the Localism Act! However, this requires most of the 57 members to sit on Planning. Each of the four committees sits every 28 days. Overview and Scrutiny Committees, Audit and Standards also require involvement by a large number of elected members.

258 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Ev 188 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence The clear problem, for me as Leader, and the Council, is the small number of members available during the day. It is not practical to be a Cabinet Member without substantial daytime availability, the same applies to Licensing Committee. Employers are not keen and many are not prepared to release employees to attend meetings of Council, and with the ever changing government agenda and almost daily circulars, the need for councillors who are available is even more essential. The majority of my Council are retired, although I do have 19 and 23 year old members, but both are at University and find committing to any meeting difficult, but both are very keen. Those with full time work, who often commute or have young families can not give the time required to perform even basic council duties. Several younger members did not seek re-election in 2011 after a four year term, being unable to give even a basic amount of time to perform councillor duties. From October to March each year most meetings start and finish in the dark, the Borough being rural, members travel up to 15 miles in often stormy or icy conditions with a lack of any public transport. With meetings often finishing at pm, this is yet another disincentive for people to give their time to serve on the Council Of course for a city or compact urban council, this is not a problem. A major demand on members time is . It is easy to circulate many s to a large list of councillors, even 10 years ago this pressure was not there. It is easy to ping an , when writing and posting a letter took mature thought and action. Members have no secretarial support and can spend many hours each day on traffic. I have no doubt that the ease of social media will lead to many members refusing to stand for Council in due course. Councillors are volunteers, not professional politicians, certainly at district level, and a daily barrage of s, including rude and abuse messages, eventually try members patience, especially as under the 2 tier system, representations are often about county council matters such as highways or school places over which my authority has no jurisdiction. I have even had representations, after the Member of Parliament has failed to satisfy a constituent, asking me to intervene! The basic allowance paid by my authority is one of the lowest in England, just some 2,300 per annum, before tax, this does not encourage people to stand for council, but the Council has been reluctant to increase this over recent years due to the financial situation. In 2011, the Council held a briefing evening for potential candidates at the May elections, this was non party political and when the basic allowance was announced, there was a clear loss of interest by those who had attended. I was my impression that they were not looking for an income, but were not willing to be councillors at a loss. The public impression that councillors get rich on their allowances is far from the truth in Waverley. Whilst I recognise that my council could increase the allowances, as recommended by the independent panel, however members do not think the time is right under the present financial difficulties in the country, but this will need to be addressed sooner rather than later. Local Decision-making Summary Whilst local members making local decisions is to be welcomed, there is a need for those decisions to be made at such a level that members are not open to local pressure. Training is required to maintain a level standard. Government should not mislead the public of their power under Localism. As set out above, Waverley returned Planning decisions to local member committees in This clearly has the advantage of local members knowing their own area, but it is demanding on member time. It is important that members making decisions of this type are fully trained and aware of the Regulations, there is good evidence that Town and Parish councils, as consultees, make recommendations not based on planning law under pressure from residents of a Ward of neighbourhood, which if followed at District level would lead to numerous appeals and costs against the authority. At a district level the majority of neighbourhood involvement is connected to planning issues, and there is a need for government not to mislead the public into believing that they can refuse every application in their area. There is no doubt that Localism is seen as a vehicle to obstruct and refuse planning applications, with little of no regard being given within neighbourhoods of planning guidance or policy, with a complete disregard of the possible outcome of an appeal. April 2012

259 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [ :35] Job: Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 189 Written evidence from Cllr Simon Killane (CC 41) I am delighted that you are showing an interest in my role as a councillor. I love the job and am very popular with residents etc. It is probably the best job that anyone could imagine! Sadly the process of selection, party politics, support both financial and system is nothing short of appalling! I am a married man with a wife and three young children. I am a Unitary Councillor. The council is dominated by rich old party political men. There are only a handful of councillors with young children. It is clear that if you have time on your hands, have lots of money or are obsessed with party politics then you re welcome. I don t even understand why you would need to do a survey on a system that is so utterly dysfunctional. I often call it a shamocracy. I am not going to rant on and on about why it is such a rubbish system. Instead I would like to offer you a challenge. Come down to Malmesbury and witness the conditions that an ordinary working family man has to endure to survive mentally and financially in a system that is so rubbish. See how popular I am with the townspeople and the ground breaking things that are happening in our town. Try to match the profile that I have in Malmesbury with the complete frustration that I feel about a local government system that is so utterly unfair, undemocratic, elitist, prejudiced and discriminatory! July 2012 Printed in the United Kingdom by The Stationery Office Limited 01/

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